if i remember rightly one jedi actually had a lightsaber whip thingy... now that would be a cool addition to the game :D

*Looks at the above posts and sighs*

And I don't think 'the competitive players' or 'oldschoolers' like Torment want JKA to be exactly like JK1. Otherwise he would've also mentioned the crappy stuff about JK1, like the lag, JK1's force_lightning or force_protection, etc

He's just pointing out the good points about JK1's MultiPlayer. Those points he mentioned are some of the main reasons why JK1 was such a success. I think those good points should be the basics for any future JK game.

It's so simple:
You have a good game, with great and succesfull things in it(=JK1). So just 'copy' the good things that made the game so successfull, add other things that are even cooler or just as cool, and voila: a game that's even better than JK1.

And a game better than JK1 = success = lots of players = large community = money for Raven and LEC = orgasmes.

I mean, just look at the future plans for CS's sequel. They're using the basic fundamentals of the original CS, because CS was such success, then just add other cool stuff that'd make the game even more fun. They're not using an entirely new game, they just get rid of the stuff that was bad, reuse the stuff that was good, and then add stuff that might make it better. And that's how any future JK game should be. They're all 'sequels'. They should all 'learn' from eachother. JK2, sadly enough, didn't 'learn' anything from JK1.

what was wrong with my suggestion WD_ToRMeNt?

Exactly. Jk was awsome, but it had it's flaws.

- PtP net code sucks
- Poor official support, the community did all the work
- It was laughingly easy to cheat.
- A few of the force powers were pointless
- Only 2 decent maps; BGJ and Oasis

So yes, keep with what worked in JK1, fix the problems above, and add extra content that enhances the game, not junk that just looks good.

Sorry Crowy, I was a bit cruel but... please read the entire thread before posting. We're talking about serious fixes for JK2's broken MP. Suggesting things in the fringes that raven won't implement anyway just makes the thread longer, and the topic harder to focus on.

removing strafe jumping is retarded

Originally posted by alarm
removing strafe jumping is retarded

Exactly, Also for you ppl who think guns shouldnt be in it if you ever have watched star wars the movies you would know that all the jedi died form either dark jedi or a guy with a gun.

removing strafe jumping is retarded
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.
People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.
If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

Why is everyone saying that the speed should be HIGHER?? C'mon, look at a lightsaber duel from a distance, it looks rediculous! Partly because you either
- hack 'n slash like a madman
- or strike tediously slow

But still, people run around in circles, in pretty high speeds and c'mon, the speed for running backwards is the same as for running forward?? It really looks insane. Everyone seems to fight like yoda in EPII... That's ok for yoda, not for everyone.

Instead of speeding it up, I'd say that lightsaber battles should be more controllable, instead of random...

Some guys here are preaching 'realism according to the movies', but they only make things faster, and thus more arcade-like... I hate that :mad:

You guys are missing the point I think:

strafe jumping is part of the quake engine, like it or not, jk2 was made with the quake 3 engine, hence strafe jumping came along with it. JK3 is still using the q3 engine, so it may still be there, it may be removed because of all the whining about speed cheats and the fact that they are heavily modifying the engine.

We don't want to see infinite amounts of ammo, the default is workable but in general its not enough, especially considering you cannot pickup a weapon twice.

As far as faster gameplay, I think the speed is fine, but the weapon balance would also help to add to the overall speed. Its not like we are saying INCREASE FORCE SPEED RATE BY DOUBLE.

As for the arguements of sabers vs. guns, save it for another day, this isn't about that, we all know the title of the game contains JEDI in it, but they wouldn't bother to mention the fact that there are guns in the game if it wasn't appealing to some people as well.

As far as jk1 goes, we are just mentioning that while jk1 had a ton of flaws, its gameplay was great, both sabers and guns, they weren't balanced but both modes (as long as sabers ff) were still fun. And there wasnt this whine fest RPG element to the game (ok there was but it was secluded and ignored). The game is an FPS, like it or not RPGing is not the norm in FPS. SWG will fulfill those fantasies of yours young padawans.

For JK3, I would like to see a return to the roots of JK game play: JK1. The mechanics and game play of JK1 is, by far, superior to the mechanics and game play of JK2.

How to improve the game:

Reticule for Grip – I love the reticule, it allows for skill to reign supreme in a battle. In JK1, the person with the best grip most likely wins the match. It takes extreme precision to get a good lock and grip on a player.

Pull – Wow. I cannot believe Raven completely overlooked this aspect of the game. JK1 had the ability to pull any object that was useful – weapons, ammo, health, and armor. As long as I was in range, I could get any of these items from a distance. I hardly think a real Jedi would run over a weapon to pick it up. Instead, he would pull it form a distance to get to it sooner. Maybe even using a reticule would balance this power (only one thing to push). Granted, the movies show push as being able to span across many people, but this isn’t a movie.

Seeing – Again, Wow. Seeing had such high potential. I would like to a see a return to JK1 style seeing.

Mana management – Firstly, I hated JK2’s mana management. All powers cost huge amounts of mana; especially neutral powers. Secondly, there was no mana regen during the use of powers. This was essential in JK1. Put the regen back in, as well as drop the mana costs. It is stupid to be able to only use 2 powers at one time. I should be able to use speed + sight, grip people, and jump all at the same time.

Jump – It is way too slow. Speed it up.

Speed – Speed it up. It is entirely too slow.

Saber – Beef up the saber instead of nerfing the guns.

I'll think of more things. Use JK1 as a pattern. It has outlived JK2, and the game has been out for almost 6 years.

Edit:
Heh - Hey, Torm. Didn't see ya there.

I'm not saying everything should be faster. I just want the running forward to be much faster.

And yes, it's ridiculous that running forwards is just as fast as running backwards. And I've seen the duels, even with multiple players, and I don't think people are running in high speed circles. Maybe in circles yes, but not in high speed.

And yes, the saberbattles should be more controllable, instead of random. But they should also be speeded up by the running motions going faster. Speeding things up does not mean less control.

And the guys who are mostly calling for a faster and more fun game are usually the ones who oppose the 'realism according to the movies'-argumentation. They want the game to be based on good, fun, fast, frenzic, exciting, adrenalinerushing gameplay. Not on the movie.

Originally posted by Zodiac
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.
People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.
If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.

It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.

Ok, after wading through all 6 pages of this thread, a few things occurred to me.

I think you guys are going to be rather disappointed when JA is released. Look at the title: Jedi Academy. This one's gonna focus on force powers and sabre combat. There will, of course, be guns, but I suspect that a LOT of the game is going to be Jedi oriented. That doesn't mean that making suggestions is a bad idea, but I do think you're going to be disappointed in the end.

For my part, I don't WANT this to be a Quake-like game (yes, I know it's based on the Q3TA engine), where the force powers and sabres are "extra". You can brand me a sabreist, but I like to play something a little different from the slew of other FPS games out there. The force and sabres are what make this game different. If you took them out and just had the guns, it'd be just another quake game with rather mediocre guns.

You CAN balance sabres vs. guns. The ammo consumption thing is just ONE way to do it, not necessarily the best. One of the things implemented in 1.04 that I thought was actually good was the fact that you couldn't run backwards as fast as you could run forwards (at least when holding a gun). That's a step towards balance. You could also do things the way ProMod did it: give the gunners gadget access, but the sabreists force powers. IE: as a gunner, you can use shields, bacta, etc., whereas as a sabreist, you can use force powers. Gunners would not get to use force powers, sabreists would not get to use weapons or gadgets. That seems balanced to me. You can further balance things by making modes like CTF or TDM class-based. You then limit class abilities/weapons/etc. and that helps further balance thigns. HOWEVER, you could conceivably do this for certaing game modes, but leave other game modes more in the "free for all" vein. IE: you do the balancing act in one mode of CTF, or you can play FFACTF (where there are no limits or restrictions on the gear you pick up).

A final balancing act tool would be to make the sabre LETHAL (1 - 2 hits = kill with ANY stance) AND to make it capable of slicing through shields. This would further balance the guns v. force issue. Your sabre blade is unaffecte by shields and simply attacks health (a la kick), whereas guns still need to chip away at the shields. So, sabreists would be deadly at close range and able to close that distance with force powers, but gunners could still take them out from long range (and wouldn't have to worry about shields -- remember, sabreists get no shields).

Regardless, I think that different game modes would be the best way to try to appease everyone. Not everyone is going to want to play a class-based game. Not everyone is going to want to play the free for all style that evokes Quake3 and other similar games. By providing different game modes that are not limited to common weapons/sabre systems (IE: sabres in duel do less damage, or block better, whereas sabres in CTF have almost no blocking of each other, and do lethal damage). Now, whether this is actually possible or not, I have no idea. I'd like to think it is, but it may be impractical for Raven and something that the mod community will have to come up with.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill. In the meantime, your stances are simply different ways to get a hit, not stronger or weaker in terms of the damage they deal out. Personally, I don't need this game to be any faster than it is. I'm not looking to play a game where I need to be all hopped up on Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs or where I have to have just done an 8-ball in order to play effectively. I don't need to be Speedy Gonzales or The Flash when playing a video game (unless it's a Warner Bros. cartoon game or a superhero game :) ), so I don't really see what the big deal is with speed.

I also don't think that there need be quite such a division between "competitive" gamers and casual gamers. A good game can cater to both. Regardless, perhaps the BEST way to ensure a good game that satisfies most people is to release a free MP demo PRIOR to the release of the game (IE: a good couple of months prior), listen to the complaints, suggestions, etc. of the community, and try to implement them.

Hey Rage! Where you been bro? Get on messenger hax0r :P I was going to email you, stop haxing my mind lol. Read the whole thread. Rage, you're going over stuff I've already covered... but go ahead and say it again since people don't like to read what they reply to :rolleyes:

Haze is right, even though I'd like to not see Jedi hopping around like bunnies, it's part of the engine and we'll have to live with it. Let's try to get Raven to fix what they can... Read: Return the gameplay to JK1, deviating so much from a successful game type was a gamble that didn't pay off.

I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 :), because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.
But I think it just does not fit in a JK game, because of the SW background. Now I don't know if it's even possible to replace it with an alternative move (that doesn't make the player look like a bunny) in JK3, but I think they can. CS got rid of it (yes, CS = Quake engine too), so why can't JKA? (Now some of you may be thinking, what bs, CS = HL engine. But there was this discussion here on this board, almost a year ago about the same thing and it turned out that CS's bunny hopping had something to do with the Quake-engine it was using.)

Originally posted by Lightwing
Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.
It adds an aspect of skill? Perhaps it does, but that same aspect of skill can be accomplished by an alternative move. Strafe jumping is basically a repetitive move you do with the mouse and the keyboard. Now there must be a good alternative for that, that doesn't make the Jedi look like a rabbit on xtc. Perhaps running in an alternative way? (the JK1 way?)
You also mention that it makes the game more intense, but you don't tell me why. Is it because of the increased speed you get? Or do you get ultimate entertainment from moving your mouse from side to side and tapping your keyboardkeys? Of course it's just cuz of the speed you get. The 2nd one is just the way to get the desired effect.
the speed-factor is what my entire argumentation was based on and so far I don't see any other reason why strafe jumping would be 'intense' and 'ultimately entertaining'. It's all about going faster, gaining more speed, accelerating.


It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.
Well yes! but that is because JK2 doesn't have an alternative to getting real fast. JKA could do without strafe jumping if it'd have an alternative.

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.
I focused on the thing why people were strafe jumping in the first place, and suggested an alternative for getting the same desired effect, so strafe jumping could be removed in JKA. I don't see how thinking of an alternative, and backing it up with some relative logical arguments can be considered stupid. Maybe I'm a bit too demanding for Raven and its crew (maybe they dunno how to remove it), but if they read this post and are able to remove it, they at least have an idea how to replace the kangarooing with a better alternative.

Solo4114,

What's the difference with names? Jedi Academy has the same game play implications as Jedi Knight or Jedi Knight 2. While much of the SP will be based upon Jedi Training, our gripe is with MP - which we all should know by now that are two entirely different components (hell, even in JK1 SP and MP were different game play wise).

We are not saying we want this game to be Quake-like. We want this game to be better than JK2, and most of our ideas come JK1 - which was the furthest away from Quake-like play. Force and sabers have always set the JK series apart from traditional FPSs. Do not assume we all love guns - I was a FF Saberist in my JK1 days.

Yes, balancing sabers and guns is very possible. However, I believe that Raven chose the worst way of doing it. I found that increasing saber damage eliminates most balancing issues. Look at JK1: A hit with the saber could leave you with only 2 health while starting off with default health/shields. It was deadly, and I know many players that could hold their own in FF Oasis using force and saber. Gunners (yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2) should have access to all force powers. Part of what made JK1 great was the fact that saberist or gunner, you had the same force powers to choose from. It just all came down to preference. Gunners want force too, not a gadget.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill.

No, our gripe with speed is the game is too slow, even when force speed is used. Going from one end of Yavin to the other, even with force speed, takes entirely too long. Its boring, dull, and sleep provoking.

Solo4114, let us look at a few things:

1. JK1 is still alive (barely), but even after 2 years the game was still very strong.

2. JK2 is very dead after its first year. The game has lost at least 3/4 of the people that were playing it this time last year, and hardly any new players are coming.

3. There is only a sequel because people many people bought JK2. They're not making this for the droves of people that play it (yeah, that was sarcasm). In order for ANY game in the JK series to survive and be remembered, it must follow the game play (although not exactly - that would be boring) set in JK1.

Hiya, Torm. I've been around. Just getting alot of work done. As for getting on MSN, I can't right now. I'm at the office and the routers and proxy block out access to Messenger. I'll get on around lunch-time, though. Don't you know I always reply without reading what others have said? :p BTW, bow before C# :p.

[Edit Taos - How about we be nice to each other, thanks. :cool:]


Improving the gun games will make alot more people want to play the game (ie. people from quake and cs), thus raven makes more money.

How does the name mean it's going to be ALL out sabers? You'd think Jedi Knight 2 would be like that also by just going by the name.

Sure, SP should probably focus a little more on saber to make the star wars fans happy. But MP must have a solid gun game. Another game like jk2 will make Raven lose the gunners that jk2 in JA.

The biggest problem with jk2 saber battles were how repetitve they all were. You coulden't watch any duel and say "hey that was a sweet move" because everyone does the exact same thing, thus, not making any competition. Adding more combos and stances won't do anything, the same thing will happen. People will find some way to be "cheap", people will complain, and the game dies.


Raven has to make more balance in the gunplay, the only worthwhile gun to pick up when playing vs pros were rockets, repeater, flak (which just got spammed), add more "cool" yet usefull moves and more FREE (no, not like it costs nothing) movement.

Doesn't look like the saber battles are going to be much different in JA than jk3. Same system, just more combos and stances.






:explode:

Originally posted by Zodiac
I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 :), because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.

ahahahahaha, strafe jumping doesnt make sense ANYWHERE(what jet pack?). SW= realistic? rofl

Strafe Jumping:

JK1 did not have strafe jumping. It wasn't necessary. Force speed was ample to get around a map. Take out strafe jumping and give us good speed.

Wow, some great posts have been made bringing up some grea posts. Legion, make sure you get most of this stuff in.

The Grip/pull reticule should be brought back rather than jsut facing in their direction to grip em etc. Drain might have been a bad idea on raven part as it is probably really hard to balance.

Also i think that's it's entirely possible to balance the guns and the sabers, if Raven take time to test and test their system, it doesn't have to be terribly different, all it needs is getting it right with trial and error. Beta Testers woudl be a great way to find out.

Like an awful lot of people here i think we need more speed in the game, especially force speed, in jk it was very fast with a giant learning curve which made it fun spending time trying to master it without crushing your nose off the wall and killing yourself. And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2

Heh i'm the other way round :) Not because i think gun suck but i knew people who i coulld paly sabs with.

Maybe a manual blocking system is an option too but it's probably far too late to add it in now. in singleplayer any.

And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

Strong stance, though, is extremely, extremely slow. In JK1, the swing really wasn't much slower than the primary swing. The swing itself took longer, but it did not slow down the player.

i think you guys are missing the point entirely! ppl saying 'remove strafe jump!', what the hell? are you saying, 'make it physically impossible to jump and move to one side'? thats ludicrous! if i wanted to dodge something, thats the first thing i'd do! apart from cowering behind something large and firmish...And i thought the forward roll was faster moving than that anyway.
Another thing, any saber changes should be about GAME BALANCE, this goes for weapons too. Pull backstab was taken out because it made the game UNBALANCED. It made killing ppl a one shot affair, which is stupid and nothing like how we see jedi fight in the films.
This is what makes a good game, challenging duels, exciting gameplay. Dieing every two seconds is neither.
So, speed up the game? Bugger off. Well, speed up the rate of killings, bugger off. Speed up saber duels, lengthwise, bugger off. Speed up duels, saber movement speed and amount of moves capable in a certain space, hell yeah. Force speed was only cool in SP, because you kept at the same speed while the world slowed around you. In MP its just another all too common 'hack-n-slash' affair.
That is not skilled playing. I want a game that requires real skill, not some cheap way of quickly killing an opponent. I want a challenge in a duel, where you can really test your opponent, not stab him in the face, or kill him with one shot of the red-stance.

Originally posted by Zodiac
Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.


We could of course go with the really stupid argument here: CS was a realism game, based in modern times. People knew that soldiers don't bounce around. For Jk2, unless I'm mistaken, you or anyone on these forums didn't live 'a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.' Therefore you don't know what is ridiculous for the Star Wars world.

Seriously though, in my opinion, Strafe Jumping brought one of the only aspects of skill to the game. It was one of the seperating factors in competive play. I used to record demos of old pickup games and the progression of the entire community towards strafe-jumping was amazingly slow. I remember why DSbr was so dominant, especially early on. They could strafe jump, and circle jump, everyone else was 'running' or maybe bunnyhopping the open areas. The first DSbr pickup I went to, I saw speed + rage and the strafe jump, amazingly fast. The gap had drawn closer recently as more players learned to strafe jump, but DSbr still had the advantage of lots of FPS skill.

Strafe jump is no bug, its built into the q3 engine. Remove strafe jumping, and Raven removes one of the few differentiating factors between newbs and experts.

It reminds me of another game you might know of. Day of Defeat, another Half Life MOD. Beta 1.3 of DoD was quite possibly the best game I've ever played. You could outfrag the other team and win, or be smart and win. Individual skill was rewarded. When beta 2.0 came out, it included sprint and machine guns, now camping was the easy way to score kills, skill at rushing the enemy base was eliminted by the rookie camper. A lot of teams quit, because it paid off if you camped, rather than rushed for flags.

I'm not saying that if Raven removes Strafe Jump they'll kill part of the game. I'm saying that if they remove the Strafe Jump they'll need to include another aspect of gameplay to differentiate newbs and the more experienced players.

Ummm, Matariel.. we're not talking about removing the possibility to jump sideways. It's about a weird thing in the Quake 3 engine that lets you gain more speed while jumping in a certain way.

And because everyone wants to move at high speeds, we get jedis who are hopping around the map like bunnies. That's not exactly cool.

Having lethal sabers doesn't make the game require "no skill". And all this talk about Movies.... *sigh* ...they're movies, this is a game. (btw - the sabers seemed to kill people pretty efficiently in one hit even in the movies ;) )

SW= realistic? rofl
I never said SW was realistic. See that slash in my previous post between SW and realistic? it has the same meaning as the word 'or'. :rolleyes:
i think you guys are missing the point entirely! ppl saying 'remove strafe jump!', what the hell? are you saying, 'make it physically impossible to jump and move to one side'? thats ludicrous! if i wanted to dodge something, thats the first thing i'd do! apart from cowering behind something large and firmish...And i thought the forward roll was faster moving than that anyway.
We're not referring to a normal jump to the side, we're referring to a move that looks like a fast bunny hopping all over the level .

Strafe jump is no bug, its built into the q3 engine. Remove strafe jumping, and Raven removes one of the few differentiating factors between newbs and experts
Many people are overlooking the point that I want it replaced by a better alternative for a speedy movement (a movement that suits the SW world a lot more), not just simply removed and leave things as slow as they would be.

I read some of the posts but I did not have the patience to read them all up to this point. I had an idea mainly for single player, about the sabers. If anybody played with that mod that had the two meters on each side of the screen. Each one was constanly fluctuating as your reticle aim improved or degraded. It basically told you what your odds of connecting with your saber offensively or defensively. I thought that was an interesting idea, but a bit cumbersome in practice. I thought it might be cool if you had one meter that only told you about your defensive capabilites. I also suggest that there be a block button. This would be cool b/c you could ignite the saber, and be in idle state, then hold down or hit the button to take a ready posistion. -This would allow for some cool idle, ignition, poses. Anyway, here how it goes. You walk up to an enemy saber weilder. Stop and whip out your hilt. In a cool stlyized way, you hit the ignite button. You stand there idle in a rather badass-looking stance,which will look more badass as you become a better jedi. At the beginning of the game you guy might look a tad bit timid when faced with another jedi. Later on he gets more confident looking. If you walk up to the other jedi and he's rather aggresive, you can hold down the block button and you will have this really sweet, fast-paced, clash, clash, clash. With each block the defence meter goes down. Each stance dishes out more "damage" to that meter. When this meter is depleted (I figure 4-6 hits with blue stance to kill it), you have to parry, or back flip or, actually take an offensive swing, b/c the next swing is going to connect with your player. If you do decide to take an offensive swing and your meter is gone, you might still contact his saber for a block, but you will be more likely to be knocked away. I also suggest that this meter recharges very quickly. Sorta like a jetback meter does. Unlike that mod, you can easily keep tabs on your defensive capabilites, and it can allow for a a bit of strategy in saber combat. -not too much mind you. What it also allows for is a nice bit of wickedly fast saber combat with clashing sabers, but it limits the newbie button mashing method of getting that. If you do just stand there with the block button held down it would go like this. Block! Block! Block! Block! Block! Saber-knocked away, and bam! you're dead! (or really damaged) Also the AI should have their own meters (not visible to the player) That way you might come on aggresively and they have to block it all and then they might spin away like Obi-Wan did in E1 against Darth Maul. The only thing that the block button/meter does is let you quickly and easily plan you moves. You might hit him with a red stance hit and it will completely drain the meter, then switch to blue stance, and take him out while his saber is knocked away. In multi-player you have to watch out not to try to block some of those red stance swings. After the long slow swing, you might be able to hit him blue. I could go on and on trying to exemplify everything, but I have thought about most of the complaints about the combat, what with the patched and all. I really think that at the very least this will give single player jedi-jedi combat a real sence of urgency, and intensity. By not knowing your enemy's defense meter, you have to only keep track of yours and just look for that opening. Think of it this way. You hit the guy many many times, and you think that any second now he'll be "tired" and his blocking might falter (meter is empty) It causes you to look for or anticipate an opening, just like in real sword combat. When your enemy's meter is out he might roll to the side, spin away, of back flip outta there, and you would be like, "damn! he parried" So you have to get back in there. This time, he's coming on strong so you have to do some blocking. But you deiced to roll to the side after your meter is halfway down, and you strike him down from the side. With the additions of some simple combos to the game you could plan and anticipate your openings and counter with a sweet combo. Adding a quick forward jab (like saber battleX) would be cool for those openings. regarding combos I was thinking about how fighting against stormies, or other gun toting enemies would be. If you are in the middle of several guys it might be cool to have a simple combo like A, D, Swing, which would do a swing to the left and then to the right, you could have some cool senarios where you killed two guys on either side of you. Star Wars is all about those sweet moments that we remember. If you are able to get creative with your attacks, defense, combos, etc. You can really create those memorable moments. That's why Deus Ex is so great. You could really get creative with how you dispatch your enemies. I have other ideas about some of the force powers, and the overall feel of the game, but I'll save that for another post. I really have given a lot of thought to this saber mechanic, and I know that I probably did not describe it well enough, but if anyone wants to question something about it, I will probably be able to explain around it.

Originally posted by WD_Rage
Strong stance, though, is extremely, extremely slow. In JK1, the swing really wasn't much slower than the primary swing. The swing itself took longer, but it did not slow down the player.

Your right but what i meant is that if it's liek that in jk2 then they should make a huge gap because i thoguht it was a bit overused in jk. :)

Also look at this on manual saber blocking (from the blocking thread :p)

This is the way I think manual blocks would work:

You press the secondary fire and you bring your saber up in a block position. The long you hold the block button down the less chance you have of sucessfully blocking the attack, untill you are forced to lower your defences. Therefore, that forces people do use more skill and timing to have more effective blocks -- as opposed to just random blocks.

Since the block button would be right next to the fire button you'd be able to switch between an attack and a block very quickly.

A succesfuly block would make the opponent slightly less capable of blocking your next attack in return -- a succesfuly block would knock the opponent's defences down for a second. That causes 2 person fights to be more up close and personal, since you'd WANT to land a block in order to kill your foe. Evading attacks alltogether -- which is very non movie like -- would not be as practical, so no more jousting.

When two sabers colide, with both fighters doing an attack, and not a block then the saber simply block each other, and no one is penalized.

When a lightsaber wielding person has his saber out, and is hit by another saber, than there is a slight chance the saber will automatically block, provided the saber is close enough to the attempted attack. That would be in defence against attacks going through an ignited saber.

When a single lightsaber wielding opponent is blocking a two lightsaber wielding player, the one with 1 saber would block it in the same manner in which automatic blocking would be.

Anyways, that's the way I would see it working, it would still retain nearly all of the speed of JO (heck, anything is faster than a heavy versus heavy fight), while implementing alot less random deaths, making fights more calculated and strategic.



and my followup sort of the same way (it's based on this mostly)

for everyone who is against, think of the way it works, if thery fire you need to click the block button just in time to save your self which, parrys them or or knocks em back a bit then you attack back - maknig it more movie liek (even though i don't really care about that at all) and much more fun and interacting imo .... It woudi be a great quick click system i think where button mashing cannot win.
That's MHO anyway
Of coruse there would be two seperate buttons, prob prim and sec. isntead of sab throw.... that could jsut go bury itself in the neutral power list.

I thoguht this needed to be addressed in this thread and also i think that raven sohudl maybe give the server admin an optino for auto or manual in mp. I think that it should be kept the smae way it already is in sp.

Its q3 and strafe jumping is there,and we can thank god for that
Asking for its removal its been nooby just cause they cant do strafe jumping and think its cheating.
You re defending your brainless sw ideas so much that u ll earn an rpg after good games like dark forces and jk1 FPS that came first.
Game will have guns, sabers and force powers so the best way to divide skill (aim oriented) from rpging (kidding around waving a light stick, bowing and taunting like a 9 yo kid) is to make classes (like matt posted) for multiplayer.
Even if classes are not made, ppl will choose their own way and make their own classes such as not joining a saber only server or guns server.
Jk2 was also called JEDI OUTCAST and wasnt about saber combat only. This is called JEDI ACADEMY so u get to progress from padawan to whatever in SINGLE PLAYER.
We are talking about MP gameplay. A saber only doesnt fit in a CTF mod for instance, cause its about a fast paced, speed, action, teamwork, not about running away using force powers or dueling in the middle of it or even getting rid of someone by simply pressing a key pull whoring which doesnt take any skill.
Im thinking that CTF will come along with JA although i never saw luke or darth vader playing it and yet no one complains " hey its about Jedis! there shouldnt be a CTF mod in it" same thing goes to strafe jumping or q3 physics so stop complaining about it, instead requesting for an only guns or an only saber oriented gameplay ask for classes, both communities, saberists and gunners. Maybe this way we can enjoy playing wihtout reading things like "cheater!!" "u only use rockets" "hey i was saber down!"

I mostly agree with your post but your are obviously far biased for CTF mode.

Since you are at Jedi Academy, it might be cool to have your master go with you on most missions in the beginning. In certain areas of the game, he might stop you and tell you to go this way or that way, and that he'll take out these guys over here, or there, etc. He'll advise you on certain tactics in certain areas. If you disobey like Anakin, he might yell at you to wait or something like that. Beware though, this can be made really cool or absolutely lame! Don't make the master speach repetetive! Jsut a few little areas where you two plan an attack.

Well, after reading the interview on Games Domain I would say that it is more than possible. They compared the realtionship between Master and Apprentice to the one we saw in TPM, and suggested, that they would do some missions together. Not a bad idea anyway ;).

So your saying that you would rather run in a stright line all the time than actually be able to catch up to people a certain way? That would suck in CTF... even in sabers.

I don't see your problem with strafe jumping... OH NO, it doesn't look 'starwarish', so what? It adds better gameplay, which to me (and should to you :) )is more important that how it looks.

Strafe jumping must stay, end story.


and mo the saber dmg needs to improve, blue swing you could stand next to someone and swing for like a min. straight and not kill them. It was desgusting. I think however, people that just run around and randomly swing, should be blocked easily.

So your saying that you would rather run in a stright line all the time than actually be able to catch up to people a certain way?
I'm not saying that. Think about this: in JK2, you can't catch up to people if you're not strafe jumping. Now what if you had another way that's just as fast as strafe jumping, that does look like a natural movement and that enabled you to catch up to people and give you all the benefits strafe jumping had, without having to strafe jump? It'd make strafe jumping unnecessary, thus it could be removed.

That's what I've been saying all along! Plz people: read my posts before flaming on me, because I'm not simply yelling:"REMOVE STRAFE JUMPING". I'm talking about a way to replace strafe jumping with an alternative type of movement that'll have the same goals, but without the idiotic look of people jumping around like that. And if that alternative way can't be implemented, just keep strafe jumping.

Don't get me wrong. I like having guns in the gameplay. I'd like to see a cool class based system where you could finally truly implement the mercs v. jedi style gamplay, where people have access to either guns or sabres and the gameplay is BALANCED and FUN. At the same time, however, I understand that some folks want their strafe-jumping, access to all guns, weapons, force powers, gadgets, etc. and just want to frag. That's fine by me, let 'em go play FFA. FFA, as the name suggests, should be a true free for all with no holds (or guns/force powers) barred, except those that the server limits.

OTHER game types, however, should be emphasized more in this version. CTF was pretty well shafted in JO, which was a real pity. CTF and other objective-based modes of gamplay are my personal favorites. I like fighting alongside a team, working towards a common goal, but unfortunately, due to a shortage of maps and some gameplay tweaks, CTF became rather a chore in JO.

I think that most people can be satisfied by different game modes. Those who really just want to play quake with Star Wars guns, force powers, and lightsabres have FFA, and more power to 'em. Those who want team-based competition can play CTF or RTCW-style objective-based gameplay.

Within those styles, you can break the gameplay methods down further, either through server-side variables (IE: No-holds-barred gameplay vs. class-based gameplay), or through separate sub-game types. Even in a class-based game, you could further sub-divide the game play by having games that are teams of mercs vs. teams of jedi, or mixed teams going at it.

The point is that there need not be a single all-encompassing set of mechanics to control ALL styles of gameplay (at least, in theory). You can appease groups who want more fast-paced gameplay, groups who want access to ALL abilities and features at once), and groups who like the class-based system where you have more limitations (but people are required to depend upon each other). Personally, I thought RTCW was a fantastic game, and I think that JO/JA could/can have a similar game mode, complete with classes that move at different speeds (a la the guy carrying a venom/panzerfaust moving slower while it's out), have different abilities and weapons, and are all working together to try and accomplish a particular goal. I'd LOVE to see a style of gameplay like this.

The real question, however, is will Raven take the time (or will they be given the time) to do this. That's one of the reasons why I caution the gun lovers out there. From the statements that Raven has made, regarding sabre combat, the focus of the game, etc., I suspect they will focus much more on the "jedi" side of things and less on the "gunner" side. Don't get your hopes up. We may end up depending on the mod community (which, Raven has said they want to support) to actually give us the gameplay styles and tweaks that we want, but then, that's not uncommon.

Originally posted by Zodiac
I'm not saying that. Think about this: in JK2, you can't catch up to people if you're not strafe jumping. Now what if you had another way that's just as fast as strafe jumping, that does look like a natural movement and that enabled you to catch up to people and give you all the benefits strafe jumping had, without having to strafe jump? It'd make strafe jumping unnecessary, thus it could be removed.

That's what I've been saying all along! Plz people: read my posts before flaming on me, because I'm not simply yelling:"REMOVE STRAFE JUMPING". I'm talking about a way to replace strafe jumping with an alternative type of movement that'll have the same goals, but without the idiotic look of people jumping around like that. And if that alternative way can't be implemented, just keep strafe jumping.

Isn't that what force speed is supposed to do? I mean, I have no problem removing strafe jumping if it's 1.) a bug/exploit, 2.) it destroys the immersion factor of the game, and 3.) it's already got an in-game equivalent, namely speed. Want to run faster? Turn on force speed! You shouldn't be able to go faster than that, especially if doing so requires you to bounce around like a frickin' kangaroo. That's just goofy.

Look, think about it this way: assuming that you run at the same speed in real life regardless of which direction you're moving (which technically isn't true -- I don't know anyone who can run backwards as fast as they run forwards, or sideways for that matter), you actually should NOT be able to catch up to someone by running at an angle from their path. Ever hear that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Adding distance (by running sideways or diagonally) should NOT under ANY circumstances be able to do that.

If you want to catch up to your opponent, turn on force speed and use it more wisely than they do. Plan alternate routes to catch them, instead of following right behind. Shoot them in the back. Pull them. Push them over. Cut inside their turns to close distance between yourselves. Basically PLAY SMARTER. Don't play cheaper by manipulating a flaw in the game engine and then claim that it's skill of some sort.

Hi all

please no flam me ... i respect all.

Lucas arts understands that numbers are numbers:

number of saber servers more than weapons
lightsaber is one of the greatest dreams of SW saga and that means wear and fight with a lightsaber in a great way is the mainly attraction of that game :)

Weapons are cool too , the game with weapons is faster and exciting cos of the multiple possibilities were u can be in , saber and weapons balancing is difficult :)

probably saber damage should be bigger.

i would like more weapons :) and more saber and a fine balanced rules that maintain a good gameplay without make ppl choose one or other.

about pull push , in my oppinion is ok right now , it makes difficult for anyone to run form a place to another without end destroying gameplay ( not a real problem in weapons but yes in saber ctf) .

the solution could be as the big artifex master did : make pull push aim sensible by someway.

anyway i would like to say that pull push requieres skill
( i say it cos some ppl used to say just no )
i say this cos u can push pull and get nothing , but choosing the right moment ( skill ) u can get a lot :) like shooting :)

u cant kill pulling pushing only , u can block ? a lil only while u have force , if some team mate of the puller/pusher kills u while u are blocked , were was ur team mate? and that situation is not as easy as it be common

.... l8r

2 Solo:
Force speed costs mana, and strafe jumping doesn't. So you can't be speedy all the time with force speed, while you can be that speedy if you'd do the cost-free strafe jumping.
Most players consider the speed you get with strafe jumping as the normal movement speed, with force_speed giving a little extra boost to that. I was thinking of an alternative for strafe jumping that would maintain the strafe jumping movement speed that everyone considered to be normal. But overall I think I agree with you.

I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

They hate push and pull.

Thay hate sabers.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

Speaking clearly without insulting people will get your point across much quicker.

[Edit Taos - You should follow your own advice and do the same. You have been warned.]

Class based system. Bleh.

JK1 has no class based system, JK1 is alive.

MotS has a class based system and it's dead.

Raven compared the activity of JK1 with MotS and saw that a class base system just didn't work. They won't do it, and for good reason. It wouldn't work at all for competative play.

Originally posted by Drdeath
I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

They hate push and pull.

Thay hate sabers.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

And Torment, do you have to be an ass to everyone here. Speaking clearly without insulting people will get your point across much quicker.

Oh joy, another person that is talking about something he is unfamilair with WITHOUT HAVING READ PREVIOUS POSTS. I've already answered your question, scroll up for God sake. But I might as well repeat myself... again.

We want JK3 to be more like JK1, and if you ever played JK1 FF on a competative level, you'd know that JK1 FF was NOTHING like quake. JK1 is in a class all it's own. We don't want Q3, we want a better JK1.

Originally posted by Drdeath
I am curious to find out what are the force powers that the "hardcore" "competitive players" want to keep, that make it so different from playing Quake3?

Unless I'm mistaken there are no force powers in Quake 3. Which is what makes this game so special.

Anyone with a litttle practice can strafe jump. You want to jump high? Change the gravity. You want to run faster change that setting.

Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here. Modding the Game can give us the changes that we desire? The whole point of this thread so that we as the community don't have to make numerous mods (which tend to split the community), and can be content with the game that Raven releases.

They hate push and pull.

Untrue, using push and pull is part of the game. Its the way push and pull are used, and the way raven implemented them is what we are working to fix.

Thay hate sabers.

Also untrue, many of the posts by "Hardcore competitive gamers" have been calling to make sabers more viable in CTF play.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b.

Don't really understand why you need to flame here as this thread is for constructive posts, but whatever. If you're trying to put words in other people's mouths, you shouldn't.

When did the game become a low grav fast speed Q3 mod??

No one ever said the game was a low grav q3 mod. Just because its based on the q3a engine doesn't mean its a mod.

This is a SW game. It's not about being a Jedi or being a RPGer, its about using the game to it's fullest. The saber is a HUGE part of the JK universe. With out it and without some of the force powers it would just be a Quake 3 mod.

Agreed, again, that's why quite a few posts are regarding making sabers more viable in all gametypes.

We don't want Q3, we want a better JK1.
So blody right.

Basically everyone that likes sabers should STFU and is a n00b

I've not been told that yet and i like playing jk2 sabers. :rolleyes:

Removing strafe jumping from the game would be a big mistake. It requires skill to learn how to do it, and it does indeed, as contender mentioned, separate n00bs from vets. It is also quite possible to catch up to somebody esle who is also strafe jumping, because not everyone's strafing skills are equal. I've done that many times myself. Besides, strafing is plain FUN to do! So what if it originated as a rounding error in the quake engine's physics. It doesn't make any damn difference whether it looks "realistic" or not. Half the things you see in JK2 aren't "realistic". This is a sci-fi game. I guarantee that 90% of you who sit around and think strafing is "stupid" for one reason or another, are probably just not very good at it, or just don't want to learn how to do it. It's too fun to do once you know how to do it for you to willfully want it taken out.

The competitive community is not out to add 100% more speed and ammo to the game, and we do not wish to take aspects away from the game from people who prefer saber combat. The whole purpose of this thread, is not to get into some BS arguement of "saber vs gun", but it is to remind Raven that there are alot of us who like the guns aspect of the game, and we'd like them to take note of that, and not butcher our aspect of the game in thier process of adding more stuff for saber combat. Following that line of reasoning, we have put forth many suggestions we feel would improve the multiplayer FF guns (all weapons) aspect of the game, which is what we prefer.

Do not post in response to what we are saying to try to say we are "against all sabers" and "we think all people who like sabers are just n00bs and shouldn't be listened to." You are hijacking this thread and turning it away from its constructive purpose in doing so. Stop trying to make this an arguement of "sabers vs gunners". That is not conducive to the benefit of all here, and you need to knock it off.
-Sphinx

Not everyone who likes sabers is a newbie, I was a FF Saberist in JK1. The crappyness of JK2 forced me to use guns more then anything though.

Yes however, there are classes of people I'd rather not have post on this thread. Newbie isn't the right word for them. I'm talking about the SW fanboys and RPGers. Fanboys would play the game just to pretend to swing around a light saber and act out wet dreams about Padme. They'll buy the game wether it's good or not and nobody cares if they stay long. RPGers are just... bleh. Go play SWG or KotoR and let us have an untained by your newbieness honest to god FPS.

It's not an RPG, it's a FPS. It's not a book, it's not a movie, it's not TV, it's a FPS video game played MP.

Shut up. As good as "no guns in the game, a class system, a netto saber blocking system, and whaever else blah blah blah" sounds to you meek minded ones, what you are suggesting actually destroys the gameplay of the game. It's not a movie or RPG, it's not about looking good for some gimmick, it's about GAMEPLAY that you enjoy and doesn't suck.

Ok, i'm going to start off by saying JK series rule!!!! JK1 and JK2 both are INCREDIBLY awesome and i want to kiss the feet of their developers (unless their moldy, but even then i would consider it). So thank u guys, keep on trucking. However, the curse of amazingly good games is amazingly high expectations, and with this little thread, i want to ask the guys that have any say in the making of JK3 to PLZ PLZ PLZ consider these things me and the guys came up with.

I am eternally gratefully for you even looking at this, if anyone has anything constructive or informative (or suggestive, why not?! :D ) to say, plz don't hesitate.

1. I think i don't need to say that it is the bright little glowing stick of pure destruction that makes the JK series so incredibly fun. They are a billion shooters out there, but the lightsaber gives JK a certain edge (pardon the incredibly corny joke).

JK2 sabre fighting was excellent, it looked incredibly awesome, BUT, looks aren't everything. It was much slower, less deadly and harder to manage than JK1's. It was obviously better, due to the time elapsed, but it's clumsiness was disappointing.

IF THE DEVELOPERS CHANGE ANYTHING AT ALL, IF THEY READ ANY OF THIS AT ALL, PLEASE, I BEG YOU!!!!!!!! MAKE SABER FIGHTING MORE ACTIVE. BY THAT I MEAN, U DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THE 3 STANCES, A LIGHT SABER IS SO SWEET DUE TO IT BEEING INCREDIBLY EASY TO HANDLE AND ALMOST WEIGHTLESS. WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND 5 SECONDS IN A RED SWING. KEEP THE MOVES (ADD SOME :D HEHE, PLZ) MAKE THEM FASTER, AND MAKE THE LIGHSABER WHAT IT SHOULD BE: AN ELEGANT, QUICK, AND GRACEFUL WEAPON OF PURE DESTRUCTION.

2. Put more acrobatics in. When i first saw how Katarn can flip over enemies, run on wall, dodge sniper fire, and do all the sweet spins, i finally saw a star wars game coming OH SO CLOSE to movie quality (which is amazing).

3. This was already mentioned, downplay the force a little bit plz. I mean it was fun for a while pushing ppl off of suspended cat walks of nar shadaa streets, but it got incredibly annoying when u pull out a saber and try to engage in a duel (or try to snipe someone) and be simply pushed off, not even killed, just pushed off to your doom.

4. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! I'm not just kissing arse, i really mean it. JK2 was a huge improvement on JK1 (which was an awesome...wait, it still is an awesome game!). I sincerely hope you can do the same w/ JK3. Whatever happens, i hope it turns out for the best! THe best of luck to the developers, and thank u to anyone who read this.

Contender has the right idea so far. :]

Yes, strafing is difficult to fully master and takes skill... speed does not. I can't believe strafe jumping even came into question...

Also, I'd just like to address some people hinting at an implementation of anything close to promod... please, hell no... If jk3 is anything like pro-crap-mod, several people (including myself) will just stick with other games. That mod was catered to one or two people that couldn't accept the inevitability of bugs. Personally, I like bugs... they're fun to figure out and exploit. I seriously hope that there are several of them in jk3. Also... let's stop with the whole discussion of jko and what "skill" it did or did not take. Obviously, every fps takes skill. Unless your name is Jonathon Wendell, you have no basis to judge. Again... can someone please stalk the raven developers and bribe them into releasing some beta test info. Oh, and no Europeans in beta, dammit... I hate you all. :rolleyes:

Raven or lucasarts aren't likely to look at anything posted here what people post is a idea they may have not something raven will use in the making of there game and certanily aren't gonna look on these forums since in the gameplay forum for JA there's loads of ideas by many forummers and raven would never be able to even think of ever making half of what people have come up with,but if they did it would be cool :D we can always hope !!