The setup for MotS's push was cool, if anything make it like that for sp.

Although im not an sp fan.

I dont remember who mentioned the assists idea, but I want that too.

No comments on my suggestion? :(

Originally posted by PetR-
The setup for MotS's push was cool, if anything make it like that for sp.


NO NO NO NO NO!!! AUGH!! MoTS forces were primitive- it's highly unlikely that you can push a person back 15 feet and have them not even fall. besides, the "lock-on" forces from JK and MoTS are just....slow and archaic.

Detriq:

Your suggestion would be fine for guns/ctf but useless for saber only ff servers. We need a force set-up that's all-around good for game balance. If the pull or push increased exponentially as time increased, I could see it working; however, there would have to be some way of countering.... hell, push should negate pull; pull should negate push (depending on how well the aim was of course). What I really like is the so-called implementation of multiple force use... can you imagine the combo/exploit/bug possibilities? They could be endless.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GHOUL2 specifically designed for damage modelling and calculation, and placing where your shots land? I remember reading about how great SoFII was going to be because of how accurate GHOUL2 modelled the damage. How is GHOUL implemented in Jk2 (as I beleive GHOUL is in Jk2, and it allows for dismemberment)? I mean you can kill someone with a disruptor shot to the foot. More advanced damage calculations and modelling would add that degree of attainable skill level we were discussing earlier. Something similar to what exists in Counter Strike.

Something that could be very useful

Originally posted by RambOrc
in RavenForums
This is not the official Raven Software board, just as RavenGames is no official Raven Software site. What I can offer you people though is that if you collect important requests/questions into one text file and mail it to me, I'll then post it here as a closed thread (no more postings from users into it) and try to get someone from Raven Software to answer it publicly.

URL is http://www.ravenforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1681)

This would be where you should send the document

No one here is discussing about having the saber or not, i think everyone agrees with the saber staying, but its about turning the game into an rpg instead of an fps, no one wants that after so many titles...
That sounds good contender.
We should check every post on this thread and discuss it, and i mean every single one so nothing important escapes that document.
Thats why i asked for a poll, i think a poll with every single idea on this thread would help sorting out whats important and not

Dont think we need to harass Raven at this point... Last thing we want is to interrupt their conecntration on this project... Delays will be bitched about, but they would be our faults....

Besides, the modding community will be there like a shot.

For instance, it would be nice to have saber style where by you fight with a single saber with two hand with noraml set of attacks and abilities, but if you wanted, can do a Mara and use you saber in one hand whilst you use a pistol in the other. Can then use the odd basic slash attack with your saber for primary fire, fire a shot from the blaster with secondary fire, and still be able to deflect shots (although slighlty less well, and not reflect - trade off)

Would be an awesome style to play around with for the scoundrels and trigger happy amongst us, but Raven will be too occupied. The modders could hopefully find the idea intriguing and do it.

(But if Raven could add it.... SWEEEEET ;) )

Hmm, not sure how well being able to have a saber in 1 hand and a pistol in the other would work. There would have to be some disadvantages to doing that, maybe less accurate blocking, or less accuracy in the gun. Otherwise everyone would be running around with a saber and gun in hand, and I just can't picture that.

Originally posted by Necrosis
Hmm, not sure how well being able to have a saber in 1 hand and a pistol in the other would work. There would have to be some disadvantages to doing that, maybe less accurate blocking, or less accuracy in the gun. Otherwise everyone would be running around with a saber and gun in hand, and I just can't picture that.

I covered that. But yeah - as you said. Blocking would not be so great, and you could only deflect, not reflect shots (if you see what I mean, and you would only be able to fire single shots - not charge shots. Your speed would be increased, but less power in any saber stike.

I would be for against non-Force / Saber wielding opponents at medium to close range.

Would look cool too! :cool:

About push/pull and grip, I'd much rather have it as a targeted reticle as in JK1. You held down the button, got a lock, then released it to activate the power. This would get rid of the button mashing. One of the elite skills in JK1 was the ability to know the grip reticle and cone so well that you didnt have to see the red circle to grip some one.

Another thing that disappointed me about jk2 pull was that you couldn't use it to get items faster like you could in jk1. Part of moving fast in JK1 was using pull to grab items faster so you could cover a lot more ground. Pulling items so your opponent couldn't use them was also vital to a battle between elites. Let push/pull be able to target items and if i pull something it should come right to me.

Force seeing needs to be totally redone to be more like JK1, that is there needs to be an overhead map as well.

Mana should regenerate even if I am using force.

At the highest jedi rank, I should be able to maintain speed and seeing and still have enough mana for grips and jumps.

Force jump should be much faster and more agressive and take less mana.

Force speed should be must faster and yet easier to control; no slipping around and get rid of that stupid blur.

I would much perfer JK1 style grip where I could move around but my opponent would be immobalized.

As for the saber, well I'll always be limited compared to guns in FF Guns and CTF, but that's ok. Just have it do massive damage like 2nd swing in JK1.

Oh yeah, bring back destruction and force boosts and surges the way we had them in JK1. Also, give us more ammo and weapons that don't suck please.

JK2 MP is dead after a year, JK1 MP is still alive after 6 years. Get a clue.

One more thing, they'll have to do better the just making star wars maps that are just rooms connected by hallways and elevators. Study oasis and BGJ. They are open and still 3 dimensional and designed in a way that encourages fast and trick movement.

Torment has some good points there. What I also noticed about Torment's post was that he really used the word 'fast' a lot. I agree with him on that. The overall gameplay feel must be faster than it is right now. Speed is an easy, but great way to heighten your adrenaline and to increase the fun of the gameplay.

Thanks Zodiac. You're right, the speed of JK1 was faster then any game made before or since. Doing trick jumps while moving at force speed 4, watching the map, and thinking about controling items/countinig the surge PLUS trying to out think your opponent at the same time is what gave JK1 such an extreme learning curve, replayability, and level of excitement and feeling of accomplishment.

Another thing about the maps, the two most highly played maps had nothing to do with any SWs book or movie, had lots of ammo and power ups, and were open and not just a series of rooms, hallways and lifts. They encouraged the type of play I'm talking about.

Saber gimmics and cute little moves and double sabers might attract some people, but it won't make them stay long. Real gamers don't give a crap. We want GAME PLAY not cute little gimmics. Jk's graphics are horrible, yet I'd still rather play it then JK2.

GET A CLUE!

Torment has some great points there, JK2 was slow compared to jk1, you had to be quick on your feet while your opponent was doing the same.

Force seeing needs to be totally redone to be more like JK1, that is there needs to be an overhead map as well.
Raven said they couldn't do it because of the way the Q3 engine is, there's no overhead map in it but it should be implemented IMO.

Also that move in jk2 where you right clicked and it would do that huge move that did 98 damage, should perhaps be put back in as an option bewcause, it really made people careful and caused some good movement. Maybe it sohuld be as high dmaage but it made jk saber fighting click.

thread stuck due to popular request.

please direct all future suggestions into this thread. thanks. :)

I couldnt possibly agree more about the speed issue. probably the most annoying thing about Jedi Outcast for me was the very slow movement speed, and i mean running and strafing speed here, not strafe jumping speed. in JK it is possible to have force speed on all the time since it doesnt take much mana and this makes the game almost uncontrollably fast, which is fun. and weapons should also be more like concussion rifle, which basically has rocket launcher and railgun combined into one weapon with very fast speed for the "rocket" (primary fire) but also very slow reload rate which makes it difficult to learn. and although primary fire of conc rifle has very fast speed, if players move fast its just a good thing.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~csuccf/pullpush/pull.htm)

elaboration of my idea.

I think that they should add a gun duel mode different from the regular deul mode with larger maps than duel maps and populated with weapons and ammo but no heath or sheilds.

Team Dual gametype. ;)
Aswell as a few co-op mission type ideas.

they need to make the guns more like guns, the guns in jk2 "felt" fake

Originally posted by legameboy
they need to make the guns more like guns, the guns in jk2 "felt" fake

Expand (and I mean heavily) on that point please. :-) GSD is now almost finished and will ready for proofreading by a select few.

id just like to say that the only reason i play jk2 multiplayer is for the sabers. see, im a pretty hardcore fps player, but ive played SO many FPS's that all feel the same ... u get sick of it after a while. which is why im hooked onto jk2 ... its unique : force powers and sabers make a HUGE difference.

also, it would be really cool if Raven added a built-in teamspeak. i hate playing games online because i feel like im playing a bunch of bots ... nobody talks , because nobody CAN talk ... and typing out messages arnt the same. i hate consoles as much as most hardcore pc gamers do, but i had sooo much fun playing on xbox live simply because i could yell at my team, and basically socialize. thats why whenever i play jk2 , i play it w/ friends , and with teamspeak.

thats my 2 cents :)

SiN

Wrong. The reason I played JK was the force powers. UT/Q3 can't match the gameplay of JK1 FF guns or sabers.

The stormtrooper gun was mentioned somewhere I think on the official website. Don't quote me on that. :vsd: :trooper:

Guys please...this thread was stickied so that people could offer their constructive ideas for the gameplay of this new game. There are plenty of other threads to debate the differences between games in this series. So use those please. :)

Most of the real gamers (which Raven should have listened to in the first place with JK2) have put there advice in. We don't need fan boys posting with requests for *insert something stupid here*.

Raven can 1) Ignore the fanboys and listen to the real gamers and make a good game, 2) Try to make a game with lots of gimmicks that looks good but is in reality a piece of crap like JK2.

Disagree? Get online and notice that for every JK2 server that has 3-4 players, there are 10 or so empty ones and this is during peak time! Take a look at the majors ladders, JK2 is dead. JK1 lasted 5 years and is still active. Get a clue.

I have a little something to add though. In jk1, holding down the strafe button made your run a little faster. Also, turning moving up in the air tended to make you jump higher (that's how I got on top of the ship in BGJ w/o having to use the cliffs). Yeah you had to learn to run at an angle, but that's just one of the things that made JK1 so fast and interesting. I'd like to see this coded into JK3/JA.

People tried to flame me for wanting JK2 to be more like JK1, but look at the state of JK2 right now. Going back to JK style is a good idea.

Speed up the game, make the weapons and forces better, have plenty of ammo and power ups on the map, look at bgj and oaisis for map inspiration, study JK and try to use what made JK last 5+ years in JK3/JA.

i think what logan is trying to do is get the point across to Raven that we aren't mindless babies just whining about some aspect of the game which someone else understands(as the herd of saberists in this game have done time and time again). The fact is, sabers and guns WERE separate in jk2, it was the idiot saberists on the guns servers who didn't realize they could simply join a sabers only server.

Making sabers and guns both equally useful really won't change anything. I seriously would have to agree with going back to the basics of Dark Forces 2 from both perspectives. Destruction was the greatest force power :P and how about at the very least requiring targeting reticles for push/pull(which really should only pull the weapon if absorb is off)/grip. The sabers and guns communities were fairly separated but the game was great in both areas. FF Sabers is a waste of time in jk2, which I was seriously looking forward to playing. Dark Force should go back to doing what it did best, tons of damage(DESTRUCTION, or a useful grip).

I would also agree that the guns need a lot of work. Something extremely basic: have the guns only take 1 ammo per shot, with the exception of the repeater this should seriously be considered.

How about some weapon balance as well.

Ammo wise, its ridiculous that you can't kill a person with a gun youve picked up (golan/repeater) unless you hit them with 3 or 4 of the 6 whole shots your allowed. The rocket launcher itself: 3 shots? Come on.....

I was looking forward to jk2 because I was hoping for a jk1 without the hacks and with some updated guns/force powers. The game just had too many problems and the ridiculous community of whining saberists made it pathetic. As it is I won't buy jk3 until its been confirmed that it isn't complete crap.

I agree! Too many people complaining about light sabers and wanting a light saber. I personally liked all the other weapons and the light saber at the same time. Then you have all the EU people wanting stupid things like Vong when the Timeline for Jedi Academy is right after Jedi Outcast. Jedi Outcast ended after 12 years after battle of endor. I think! Empire is still out there. They should definitely be included in the game. I also don't like the idea of just fighting rogue jedi, dark jedi, sith, reborn, or whatever force welding person you have to face. You need other star wars villians like bounty hunters, rancors, other star wars creatures, stormtroopers, imperial officers, probe dorids, maybe AT-ST or a AT-AT or something like that. The Hutt's should be in there. There is more than just Jabba the Hutt out in the Galaxy.

i posted some ideas in the other thread before this one was started up, so i'll put em up again here for everyone to discuss...

Saber Combat: Blocking moves must be done with a direction, ie. if you're being attacked from the left, you must press BLOCK+LEFT to move the saber to that side. Obviously blocking lasers etc will still be automatic, but blocking sabres will be manual. Or a slightly different system, blocks are made automatically for a saber hit, but unless the player does the BLOCK+<DIRECTION> keypress, you still get some damage, or you get pushed back.

NOTE: Changing between blocking and attacking moves doesnt require a toggle (like changing stances) just a holding down of a key (ALT would be my first choice) Jolts provided a short list of key commands that would fit this, i'll just modify them slightly:
Offensive mode
LMB - swing left
RMB - swing right
MMB - swing top to bottom
V - switch swing styles
Defensive mode
+ALT - Make the move Defensive (a press and hold deal)
LMB - Block left
RMB - block right
MMB - block center
V - switch block styles

These are just my personal preferences

Saber Locks: Saber locks too were a click-fest in MP, whoever had the better mouse won Make some 'escape' moves for the lock...an offensive move, like a puch/kick, or a force move, where you attempt to do damage to the other player. Some risk is involved with the offensive move though, if you miss or stuff it up, it'll leave you vunerable. A defensive move would include a force-push and jump backwards or something like that. No chance of doing damage to the other player, but it'll allow a better position to make the next attack.

Guns: If this game is going to be totally jedi orientated, there should be much use for gun should there? but the Raven people said there will be more guns than JK2. So, situations where a Jedi in training might use a gun? Broken/Lost lightsaber, after the Jedi has been captured, gun specific tasks (like shooting a button or something, or blowing a hole in a wall) A Jedi is taught to use everything at his disposal, even guns.

NOTE: this is just a cut and paste deal from my other post, but just to clarify, i like the idea of guns in the game, but you'll have the saber most of the time, so make saber combat a game of skill, not a test of how nuts you can go with the clicking, or how many sneaky stupid moves you can think of. And dont think that pull-backstab is a 'skill', its good that they took it out/made it harder to perform, because there is NO WAY to escape it, and it was too easy to pull off...

now, LET THE FLAMES COME!! :)
just kidding, i can take abuse from no skill sabre wielders

I'm starting to dislike the vibe I'm getting from the posts of competetive players.

It seems to me that you're hoping for a extremely fast paced Quake-clone. A strafe jumping rage-speeder too slow for you? :confused: Honestly??

The maps in JO have powerups littered all over the place. You can barely take two steps (or hops) without stepping on one! More powerups, you say? I'd say you should get rid of 'em altogether, especially if sabers aren't buffed up significantly.

The picture I'm getting from a lot of pro-players posts is a frantic insanely fast paced fragfest where you'd never have to let go of the trigger, because the maps are covered with ammo, shields and medpacks.

I'd love to say "Go play Quake", but I won't. :p

Seriously, let's not wish for a force-boosted Quake. That would be a waste.

EDIT: btw - have you guys ever tried to play Instagib on map Raven with lvl3 speed? If not, you should. :D

The picture I'm getting from a lot of pro-players posts is a frantic insanely fast paced fragfest where you'd never have to let go of the trigger, because the maps are covered with ammo, shields and medpacks.

Cool, that sounds great fun to me! But this frenzic, high paced action full of fun should not only be for force and guns, but also for no force and sabers.

Gameplay should be fast, frenzic, frantic, fast paced fun for JK. If people want something slow, they should go play an rpg or a strategy game or something.

And strafe jumping was dumb anyways. It might've been fast, but it was totally idiotic to see a player hop like a bunny. Why can't a player just move fast like that without that jumping? If players could run as fast as they could strafe jump, nobody would strafe jump. :)

Fast yes but fastER??

If there are powers like rage and speed that can even be combined and then the strafe-jumping...do we really need MORE speed? :confused:

No, you have NO IDEA what the competative players want. Shut up and listen. We do not want a quake clone, JK2 was just a Q3->JK mod. It sucks. We want gameplay that is more like JK1, which was COMPLETELY different then Q3, UT, or JK2.

PS. Stop spamming the thread with useless suggestions about saber blocking systems, saber this, that and saber blah blah blah. The competative players don't care, Raven isn't going to implement it.

Yep i think tormentor said it all

Another thing, Force Rage is something I'd like to see go away. Drain is prolly the same way since it's impossible to balance, either too powerful or too weak and It would be extremely unbalancing with JK1 styles surge and boosts.

The best thing for Raven/LEC to do would be to forget all the JK2 stuff and work to make JK3/JA an enhanced, expanded and improved sequal to JK1.

Is there a single competetive player out there who does not tell everyone to shut up or STFU or STFD? It's getting a bit old, if you ask me.

Anyways, that is the picture I got from some of the posts here. >> "Unlimited ammo! More medkits and shields! More speed!"

I don't agree. The speed you get from strafe jumping is just fine. Hell, people are practically flying around the maps as it is even without rage and/or speed.

I have not addressed the JK1-issue. I didn't play MP a lot those days. (Playing with a 28.8 modem is not exactly my idea of fun.)

You want JA to be like JK1? Fine. But why? Because you know all the l337 tricks already?

turning moving up in the air tended to make you jump higher

Why the hell would you want to have that? Because it's a cool trick that you master and can thus "pwn" n00bs? Why on earth should turning while jumping make you go higher? That's just silly. :disaprove


...but whatever. I don't use JK1 as an example because I didn't play it enough to know what it was all about. I'm sure it had good things in it, but making JA just like JK1 simply because competetive gamers want to continue to use their good old tricks is kinda lame.

Imho JA should not have any of these tricks that make no sense. I know you competetive guys love 'em, but to a casual player it just seems silly. I want aim, dexterity, you know, "mad skillz" to be decisive, not knowledge of some bug or exploit in a map or a gun.

Take the homing rockets-exploit for example. How much sense does that make? You switch to the saber and back and voilб: for some reason the rocket launcher only uses 1 ammo and homes in on the target (with twice the agility & speed) even though you didn't get a lock on him? :confused:

Get rid of these things in JA, please.

Bug's are one thing, engine physics is another. Ever play Tribes? Skiing was a "bug" in Tribes 1, but the players liked it so much that it was intentionaly coded into Tribes 2. Sometimes physics exploits are a good thing, I'd love to see strafe running in JK3/JA.

No, we arn't asking for unlimited anything, we just want to be able to play without wasting most of our time hunting for ammo. And yes, it is rediculous when I have to hit with every one of the 4 or 6 shots I have when I pick up a gun to kill one guy.

The people who say "go play quake" are clueless, they don't realize that JK1 FF was NOTHING like quake. JK2 is much more like quake, but we don't want quake/J2. JK1 gameplay is in a class all it's own.

The best thing for raven/lec to do is to make the game in their vision and to never take any suggestions from any post on any forum. Do you think raven/lec cares how many hours of jk1/jo you played? do you think they cares about your solo opinion or that of the jk1 old school never try anything new crew? Do you really think JKA has 1 chance in hell of actually lasting longer than jo as a popular online game? All that matters is that you people get hyped up enough to buy the game, after that who cares, next project.

They should care. Many (as in thousands) of people are not happy about how JK2 turned out. Also, the longer a game lives online, the more copies of the game they will sell in the long run. They have every reason to care and listen to us.

LEC has enough backing to not depend on JO or JKA lasting a long time, they make more money on it not lasting long and dishing out quick rehashes of it at full price anyways. A small game company that puts out 1 game every 2-3 years needs success, not a publishing house like lec.

The whole point of making a game is to make money, it's much easier to make one good game and make good returns then to make a dozen and barely recover expenses.

How about making the game require some actual skill. In JKO You have a semihuge reticle and where ur reticle is is where ur gun goes. How about trying to add REcoil or "kick" that a real gun would have...even watch the SW movies the Blasters had a kick. Dont make the Game where you can Run 40 MPH Shooting a Rocket Launcher and it not effect you at all. CS made REcoil for guns and thats what made it so fun....you actually had to Practice to get better and the noobs were sperated from the 'l337' or whatever. I mean seriously JKO is too Predictable and it doesnt really invovle any Teamwork type elements at all...try to make it so that "strength in numbers" is a true factor.

This would incourage teamwork instead of -fly around map rockets and flecheets a blazing and other crap- Dont try to turn this into a Fragfest Remeber this thread is about Gameply inclkude some in your game and you might get Loyal Customers dont make a FragFest Game make Good Strategies and skill a part of JKO...

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
Sometimes physics exploits are a good thing, I'd love to see strafe running in JK3/JA.

No, we arn't asking for unlimited anything, we just want to be able to play without wasting most of our time hunting for ammo. And yes, it is rediculous when I have to hit with every one of the 4 or 6 shots I have when I pick up a gun to kill one guy.


Agreed. Although I don't really see a big problem with ammo being scarce except for the rocket launcher (3!?). A slight fix might be in order though. (depends much on how many guns use the same sort of ammo)

I wouldn't mind easy-to-use server side options on this either. (what guns/ammo/powerups etc. will spawn on the map)

Originally posted by Jolts
The best thing for raven/lec to do is to make the game in their vision and to never take any suggestions from any post on any forum. Do you think raven/lec cares how many hours of jk1/jo you played? do you think they cares about your solo opinion or that of the jk1 old school never try anything new crew? Do you really think JKA has 1 chance in hell of actually lasting longer than jo as a popular online game? All that matters is that you people get hyped up enough to buy the game, after that who cares, next project.

Well if that's the case then, I won't be very hyped frankly. Also this document's entire existence is not to create a Q3 game/mod/clone but to fix the gameplay issues which were left in JK2 and make certain that Raven doesn't make the same mistake twice. Of course you can argue "Well how do you even know what they will or won't use?".

Raven has stated that they will be using the same weapons and forces from JK2 yet they plan to modify them and add some new guns/powers. We can only expect to see the same thing for the original weapons and to analyze newer ones through beta testing.

GD: What's left to do?

JZ: What's not left to do? Let's see. The story is done. The levels are in place. Most of the characters are done. Saber combat is far along.

GF: We're at the stage now where we can really begin to polish, refine, and put in scripted events. The framework is in place and now we can put in some exciting gameplay.

Gameplay - is the key, and ToRMeNt certainly had many interesting points which provided a good read. However, requesting (some major) coding and re-work to the game's physics is basically asking for a new game (which sounds highly similar to a JK1 rather trying to take a step in the right direction; JK3) is to much to ask (except for the speed, I'll take this into consideration for writing and discussing it later). We're mainly (at this point) trying to address the points which we've experienced in JK2 and improve on them.

happydan: That was a personal and unhelpful post which had nothing to do with the topic at hand, don't expect to see it remain here for long. You've been warned, I don't recommend posting in this thread again unless you have beneficial suggestions regarding certain topics/subjects we've layed out.

News flash...

You are NOT a jedi. You are playing a GAME. It's not a movie, it's not a book, and yes, I'll be the first to say that being good at a game amounts to nothing in real life.

Yeah, if you want to play jedi then fine, just don't complain when I put a rocket in your face.

The JK series is a FPS, not a RPG. Get over it.

There is no possible way to balance sabers and guns, get any notion of balance out of your heads. A splash damage weapon will always be better then a saber.

People who like guns will not go away to play something else, JK forces offers something that no other game has. I'm willing to live and let live, you can have your saber servers, but let us have our servers were we can use whatever weapon we want.

Read my words, understand them when you grow a brain cell.

Thanks Legion, reminding people of what made JK1 good and the problems of JK2 is why I'm posting here. I'm trying not to flame and stay contructive here but...

I'm hearing the same kinds of things on these boards when Jk2 was being developed, and look how that turned out. Will no one learn?

The speed you get from strafe jumping is just fine.

Perhaps it is fine, but strafe jumping = Quake. And that's not what I want JKA to be.
People strafe jump to be faster and they strafe jump because the overall movement was too slow. Now what if they can manage to be as fast as strafe jumping, without strafe jumping (eg. going as fast by just running). People wouldn't strafe jump if that was the case. That's actually pretty logical lol.
I think removing strafe jumping and making the overall movement faster would be a good way to remove it. It would also be a better sight to not see everyone hopping around.

And when fast, speedy movement would be a normal thing, combined with speed/rage it would be even cooler.

I'd like to get rid of Rage and just have force speed move as fast as it did in JK1. Yeah, the bunny hop always did look stupid :P