Everyone is talking about how they want to be a Jedi or a regular guy at the start of KOTOR 3. What I'm curious to know is what are people's view of the Jedi. The Disciple says the Jedi are a symbol and they are different. Jolee Bindo says something that people think the Jedi are perfect. What is your take?

I guess you could just say it like Vandar did, "Guardians (or something) of the galaxy, sworn defenders of the Republic." They can use the force, they wield a hot glowing sword thingy (saber), and they wear robes. They are good people, they try and help people (although that may not be the end result), and they are a noble order. I'm not sure what else to say, as far as just describing what they are. I don't think they are perfect, not at all, but as a whole they are good.

They bug me. They just piss me off. I don't know why.
It might be because they're just to calm, to peaceful. They don't laugh, or cry, or even smile enough.

I think the Jedi are a noble group of specially gifted individuals who believe it is their calling to use those gifts for the benifit of the galaxy. That being said I think that their code is flawed and they have a tendency to be too narrow minded and convinced their way is the only way. Nothing in life is absolute and a different way isn't always the wrong way.

The jedi are nothing more than a bunch of weak, pathetic fools, who have surrendered themselves, and their abilities to shield those to useless to protect themselves. The Jedi Order is archaic, a symbol of an imaginary chivalry which can never survive. They had a chance to taste the Dark Side, and experience true power, yet they turn away, their misplaced compassion and weakness will be there undoing. Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy.....and we shall have ......POWER!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!

The Jedi are noble men and women, but their code is slightly outdated. Were it not for their Code speaking against love, they could have mastered the power of the Light Side and destroyed the Sith. Plus, if the Jedi have kids, there's going to be even more Jedi.

I agree with Zez-Kai Ell says about the council, and I think it applies to both the KOTOR series and the movies. Jolee and Kyle Katan seem to be the only Jedi who get it. The Jedi code is flawed and has been since the begining. The council with their actions and how the treated Anakin is what lead him to the darkside.

Jolee and Kyle Katan seem to be the only Jedi who get it.
I completely agree.
They just piss me off.
Same here. The fact that they think of themselves and thought of as 'Perfect and Superior Beings' pisses me off a bit. And when you become a Jedi, you are perfect and great and strong. I like to be a Soldier and then a Jedi. That way you are good and powerful, but not perfect.

The council with their actions and how the treated Anakin is what lead him to the darkside.So you are saying Anakin doesn't have to take any responsibility for what he did?

I think Jedi aren't hero's, and aren't perfect.
I just think they are somekind of 'Shaolin Monks' of their time.
Just some over-trained person that excists to serve. It doesn't matter how.

And i agree with what has said before.
Only Kyle and Jolee get it. being a Jedi is to serve, and protect others.
How doesn't matter (Force Lightning was used by Kyle too), as long as you protect.

I know I didn't post the thing on Anakin but I have to say this... Anakin of course ultimately chose the path of the dark side so yes he bares that responsibility. But had the Council been more open minded and felxable with their code, they would have helped him to see his other options. Anakin had always been isolated in the Order, first by his age, then by his abilities, and finally his love and subsecquent marrige to Padme. Although Obi-wan (whom I love adore and completely support) did his best to guide him, he was far to inexperienced to take him on as an apprentice. Also Obi had little or no way of understanding Ani's special needs because of being raised by his mother. The rule of no attachment could never apply to him to begin with. Add to that the complete refusal of the Council to support or even trust the young man throughout his life and its no wonder he ends up turning to Palpatine when he dreams of Padme's death. After Obi didn't realize his dreams of his mother were forsight, either by choice or by ignorence. Palpatine also used the Force to warp Ani's mind, he had no defence against this because the masters refused to believe that the Sith controled the Senate until he told them. Falling was inveitable but also preventable if the masters had stopped believing that the Jedi tradition was the only to stay on the light side.
P.S. I agree with both Kyle and Jolee on just about everything especially what Kyle says about abilities in JA and what Jolee says about love.

Jedi do not think of themselves as superior and perfect. They can be arrogant, but only a few; most of them have exactly the opposite of that view, kind of.

I agree with Kyle and Jolee. Not only did they rock, they were the few that understood a few flaws about the Jedi. I'm not saying that the Jedi are stupid, of course, it is just that a few of their rules need changing

P.S. It is about how you use the powers (like force lightning like Ztalker said), but most of those powers are only used by your hate. Most of the time, the people using that are trying to kill and inflict pain with it, there really isn't anything else to do with those powers; which is why they are DS powers. The Jedi most of the time don't want to kill, unless there is absolutely no other way.

Well, first off, I think in EU one of the Jedi Council Members have a variant version of Force Lightning... he calls it "something justice" or something... that is in addition to Kyle using it. Its how you use the force that counts, despite what the rpg system tells you. So yes, even force choke can be a valid power by a lightsider, or force lightning, or drain. There are, however, obvious LS/DS powers, like force rage.

Also, I think only those who have tasted/touched the dark side(even if its a marginal thing) can understand the flaws of the old jedi order. I personally thinks the old jedi order is being too full if themselves that it is better off they are eliminated. They have become too much tied to the rules than to the heart of the lightside, not unlike some dusty old religious orders. Basically the old jedi order is unbalancing the force, although I doubt if the jedis themselves know it. Then again I am not too much of a lawful guy to start with.

So call me sith/darksider if you like, but a more greysider way of doing things is better. In a way NJO is more greyish, more in tune to the balance of the force.

(Not gettig into the living force vs. unifying force issue here)

^Well, eliminated is going way far, just to tell you. That would mean the galaxy being put in danger by any Sith who wants to take over. Just because there are a few flaws in the Jedi Order doesn't mean kill every single person.

But I do agree with you, most powers aren't DS and LS, but force powers like Rage are DS, and I would even consider Choke to be DS (Its a pretty evil way to kill someone). And I think that they Jedi are a bit tied to tradition and the old way to do things than really trying to make things better.

I agrees with Alkonium if they didnt aabide strongly to their rules the sith would never rule. And plus the jedi are arrogant and big headed about their force powers e.g like when mace says in episode 1, "i think we would have sensed the siths presence" ooooo the arrogance!!:)

You know, even then in TSL one or two of the lost Jedi say that the teachings were flawed and that they become arrogant. To go so far to say that their chivalry is outmoded, brings rather a long look to my face. To me chivalry is one of the things our society today lacks seriously.

I do agree that the Jedi Code is flawed. I tend to agreed with Jolee as my sig says that love can end up saving you. How many times have been the instance where the hero gets his last bit of strength from the love he feels. Passion, while a good thing can be an undoing, the bad part of love. As Yoda says, passion and possession can often lead to jealousy.

For the most part, I tend to think of the Jedi Order as a means to control what makes us tick. Teaching to take responsibility and to use the gifts we have responsibly. All Jedi have touched the darkside, anger, etc some have just learned to let it go. The Jedi are not superior beings or perfect, even Jolee said that. I think they merely have the benefit of seeing things in a different light and that they use their talents for those who need help.

So you are saying Anakin doesn't have to take any responsibility for what he did?

I don't think he would have done what he did if they had treated him with some shred of humanity as well as not lying to him about their suspensions of Palpatine and then Windu trying to kill Palpatine right infront of him, which totally goes against the code of the Jedi, and everything they stand for. Instead of trying to help him with his troubled heart they treated him like and outcast of the order, and only added to the problems. Instead of being people he could trust, they added to how troubled a person he was. Even Obi wan was guilty of great arogance in the movies. He was faced with the truth by Dooku and refused to listin to him at all. I'll be honest though, this is why I like Star Wars so much, because the real good guys aren't so easy to spot.

^First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code. If that was so, then you should be exiled from the Jedi Order every time you played KotOR. Jedi don't like to kill, but that doesn't mean they won't. There are some times you just can't leave someone alive, especially someone as twisted as Palpatine.

And the reason Anakin's heart was troubled was not the Jedi council's fault. He broke a lot of the Jedi Code, and knew it, yet kept it secret from them. That is his fault that he chose to break the rules; and because of that, he paid the price for it by falling to the dark side through what he had done. I'm not saying that the Jedi council didn't have anything to do with it, but if Anakin hadn't been in the spot he was in in the beginning, or insisted on being trained even though he was too old, he wouldn't have fallen.

An interesting topic.

Keep in mind though, the old Jedi ways were eventually destroyed. Wouldn't that have been BECAUSE of the "will of the Force?" Things were out of balance, with two Sith at any one time and tens of thousands of Jedi?

Seems to me, the Force itself must not have been too terribly pleased with those odds if "balance" needed to be restored.

And where did it lead? To Luke. Who saw the good in Vader and was able to recognize that no one way had all the answers. He was the balance the Force needed.

At least that's what the story (movies) says to me.

First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code
The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution; no matter what their crimes.
PWNED:D:D:D:D

And Anakin never argued with the Council's decision to not train him - Qui-Gon did, and made Obi-Wan promise to train him no matter what the Council's decision.

PWNED AGAIN:D:D:D:D

^First of all, I don't know of any spot that says killing a Sith Lord is against the Jedi code. If that was so, then you should be exiled from the Jedi Order every time you played KotOR. Jedi don't like to kill, but that doesn't mean they won't. There are some times you just can't leave someone alive, especially someone as twisted as Palpatine.

And the reason Anakin's heart was troubled was not the Jedi council's fault. He broke a lot of the Jedi Code, and knew it, yet kept it secret from them. That is his fault that he chose to break the rules; and because of that, he paid the price for it by falling to the dark side through what he had done. I'm not saying that the Jedi council didn't have anything to do with it, but if Anakin hadn't been in the spot he was in in the beginning, or insisted on being trained even though he was too old, he wouldn't have fallen.

OK I have an objection to the part of this post that says Ani was "hiding" his relationship with Padme along with the other trauma's in his life.

First of all at the end of the 1st duel with Dukoo Padme runs up to him and they embrace right in front of Yoda and Obi-wan! You can't tell me Yoda didn't know what was going on.

Secondly Yoda and Mace Windu both felt Ani's rage and actions on Tatooine with the Sand People, and he was never repremanded, or Palpatine would've mentiond it.

Thirdly Obi-wan commends Ani for the role he played in rescuing Palpatine including killing Dukoo.

Finally, you can't convince me that the Council and Obi-wan were so blinded by the Dark side that they couldn't sense Padme's pregnency with twin force users of unimaginable power.

PWNED:D:D:D:D

And Anakin never argued with the Council's decision to not train him - Qui-Gon did, and made Obi-Wan promise to train him no matter what the Council's decision.

PWNED AGAIN:D:D:D:D
About that thing Bastila said, it means a Jedi must only kill in self-defense.

Firstly, they might have known that, they might not. They might not have suspected; what she did doesn't necessarily mean she was in love, at least to them.

Secondly, Yoda and Mace didn't know what he had done, they just felt a lot of rage. Who knows that they didn't talk to him, between II and III? Besides, they suspected something- that is why they didn't trust him.

Thirdly, Obi-Wan didn't know that Anakin had killed Dooku while he was defenceless; he thought that Anakin had no other choice during the battle (he was knocked out, you know). You see, Anakin never said that he had captured Dooku and then killed him in cold blood.

Finally, the council and Obi-Wan couldn't even feel the presence of Sith Lords returning in Episode I, remember? And they weren't in that much contact with Padme, nor would it be easy to detect force potential in people that haven't even been born yet.

PWNED:D:D:D:D

1) Kotor is four thousand years before the movies, things could have changed. 2) That is not part of the Jedi Code, that is just a belief. 3)Palpatine was not a "prisoner", he was still using force lightning on Mace, remember? He wasn't defenceless, he could have gotten up and attacked Mace; he was trying to get Anakin turned, and Mace knew this. That was why he told Anakin to stay behind, because he was afraid of what Palpatine would try and tempt him with.

The jedi are nothing more than a bunch of weak, pathetic fools, who have surrendered themselves, and their abilities to shield those to useless to protect themselves. The Jedi Order is archaic, a symbol of an imaginary chivalry which can never survive. They had a chance to taste the Dark Side, and experience true power, yet they turn away, their misplaced compassion and weakness will be there undoing. Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy.....and we shall have ......POWER!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!

Whoooaaaa!! *Gives you a tranquilizer*

I think the Jedi have the right ideas about some things, but the Sith have some good ideas too. The Jedi are better though.

Anakin flat said Jedi don't kill captives, even if they are the dark lord. If you want to quote the movie, you forget that Palpatine had surrenderd to Windu hoping he would do exactly what Windu did. Oh and lets not forget the Jedi code explicitately states the word JUSTICE in it. Field excicuting someone who has surrendered isn't justice.

I never said the Jedi caused any of the original problems Ani had, but they didn't help him as they should have to deal with them in a constructive manner. They left the seed of the hurt with his mother there, and they let it grow. They knew full well it was there, they sinced it when they first met him. They choose to ignore the problem.

They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

Bravo!!!!!!!!! Well said When my boyfriend and I have this arguement (he's for sith I'm for Jedi) he's always telling me that I'm actually a ssith because I don't see light or dark. But I say no I am merely a Jedi who sees in color!

jedi are to pig headed to see that there not always right (not a darksider) but the sith suffer from the same problem its only when u look at both of these sides can some truth be found

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights have been the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times...before the Empire:Obi-wan Kenobi

The Jedi don't believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution no matter what their crimes Bastilla

That is what I believe in the Jedi though I do have to say that by the time we get to Episode III, they have become arrogant in their abilities and teachings. As some have pointed in other posts, the arrogance shows when Master Windu says that the Sith couldn't have returned without them knowing. Even Master Kavar and the other masters said that it was more likely that their teachings were flawed.

His abilities have him arrogant:Obi-Wan Kenobi

Yes, a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves, even the older, more experienced:Yoda

I don't think he would have done what he did if they had treated him with some shred of humanityI do. I'm not saying the order didn't make matters worse, but Anakin still has to take some responsibility. Also, if he had actually followed the Yoda's instruction, he would not have been so obsessive of Padme's death and thus not made every decision based on it.

Well I can agree to disagree on that. I think it's hard to say one way or the other if there where different actions taken by the council.

Then again, Anakin's fall was part of a long plot to take over the Republic. History has proved that the best conspiracies and takeovers are ones that are done over time and with hidden motives or rather two faced. Palpatine was a senator who became chancellor and then the emperor. He even said that he will be chancellor.

In short, things do change often at the manipulation of others. The arrogance of the Jedi may have contributed to it. In the end you got people who can't distinguish the difference between the Jedi and the Sith like TSL on Dantooine.

They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

Rainbow Jedis? :)

Well, in a way Sith see the world with more variety, ignoring the fact that they do everything for their own fufillment, which may include pre-emptive strikes to possable enemies and/or putting your girlfriend's evil grandma to coma.

They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Because that is what almost always happened. They came to that conclusion from experience.

Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.Our world isn't, but Star Wars is designed to be.

They see everything as black and white, no grey line exsists to them. Anyone who even claims something to be grey where viewed as falling to the darkside. Life isn't black and white, or even grey. It's colorful, very colorful.

Actually when it boils down to choice, there are those who see the fine line between black and white and those who don't; they see the shades of gray. So in reality choice is defined by whether or not you see the fine lines and you are defined by the choice you make based on how you view your options.
Go back to that one spot on Kashyyk with the computer protecting the Star Map. One of the options for you to choose is to evacute the people while subtly reinforcing the city. The computer tells you that is not an option. Obviously it was an either let the city die or save the city.

"For good or ill, you are now a true Padawan." Master Vrook

"The Force will be with you. Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi

The jedi are a good people, and although some of them choose to ignore the shades of gray, they do mean well, the hard part is trying to make them see past the black and white and look at the gray as well, which explains the mandalorian wars.

The jedi are a good people, and although some of them choose to ignore the shades of gray, they do mean well, the hard part is trying to make them see past the black and white and look at the gray as well, which explains the mandalorian wars.

So you would say that arrogance on the part of the Jedi is what caused the Mandalorian wars and later the rise of the Empire?

"Everyone thinks that the Jedi are perfect." Jolee Bindo

The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us. They do not realise it is their protecting the weak that makes the galaxy weak and suffer. If you can't take care of yourself you are not worthy to be alive. The weak should die to make room for the strong, that is the way of he universe. There is no reason to think about it, it just is.

We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.

Yet the Jedi try to stop us from saving the galaxy. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits. The claim killing people is a bad thing, however they kill people themselves. And why would one carry a lightsaber if not to kill somebody?

Hence the Jedi are evil and must be destoyed, so that we Sith will rule once again.

i hate jedi thay lie to much for anyone to like them at all, and its becuse of there lies that cause the darkness in the 1st place, i want to crush the jedi thay think that thay are the true kind but the force came from the unknown reagons so its truely the sith that should rule and not the jedi.

We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.

Yeah and its a wonder you never had a great empire. You are always killing your leaders. You don't get anywhere


Yet the Jedi try to stop us from saving the galaxy. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits. The claim killing people is a bad thing, however they kill people themselves. And why would one carry a lightsaber if not to kill somebody?

They kill in defense of themselves. You SITH think it's okay to kill someone just because of one mistake. The Jedi don't believe in killing prisoners. They hold all life sacred even that of a Sith Lord.

The jedi are a plague and their arrogant ways should be eradicated. They push the peace, pacifist ways and they accomplish nothing. The dark side stuff in the games and movies; they make so much sense. Problems are solved faster and more is accomplished faster and more efficient. Peace and order is established. It is a better way.

Ha! So many people, indoctrinated by Kreia!

A true Jedi is humble, and sees the faults in himself. Even Vrook was able to examine his conscience. Atris ignored her conscience, which led her to fall.

Jedi are not emotionless machines. You people keep confusing them with Vulcans for reasons I can't fathom. I would have thought Vrook would be living proof that Jedi are just as emotional as the rest of us. While many are serene, serenity is an emotional state like any other.

To lie is to go against Jedi teaching - you only do this if it's important.

The Jedi don't see everything as black and white, but they may note that a 'grey' Jedi is sailing into the wind...

Anakin could not have been saved, no matter what. It was his destiny to fall.

The Sith lie, cheat and manipulate to get what they want. They have no compunctions about doing what is necessary to achieve their goals, and no need of love, friendship, humility, conscience or anything else like that.

These are just observations of the films, books, games etc, so don't take them as written law, of course.

I find it odd, that while so many people find Kreia annoying, a lot of you sound remarkably like her in this thread ;)

I need to get off for now so I didn't have time to read ALL the posts but I would like t ask if anyone else has noticed the differences betweem the jedi order of KOTOR and the jedi of the movies...please no posts on how it's 4000 years later thats not what i mean....I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.

I mean the Jedi of the movies hardly seem like pacafists...You are correct, they certainly are not pacafists.

what I'm saying is the Jedi in KOTOR were all like "we can't fight the Mandys..we must wait and watch" Well to be honest, I can't see Yoda, Mace, Obi, or Qui-gon doing that....I mean dang Mace tried to kill the Palpatin (sp?) which I think was a good idea.The KOTOR Council did not advise against going to war against the Mandalorians because they were pacafists, it was because they were not convinced that jumping into a war at that time was the best course of action to ultimately defeat them. It was more a disagreement on strategy as opposed to philosophy. The KOTOR Jedi were probably even less like pacafists than the later Jedi, since there were many more conflicts at that point than there were in the years before the Clone Wars.

Thats right. Remember that the council apparently saw something that was pushing the Mandalorian Wars, and wanted to find out what it was first. This is similar to the situation in AotC/RotS, except there the Jedi jump in while still trying to investigate. In the end it seems neither approach is better than the other, just look at the results.

Still, looking at the actions of Revan and Anakin, it emphasises the point that a single person can change the galaaxy and in the end, it comes down to choices on the individual scale.

Just my two cents.

Well, Each recarnation of the Jedi Order is different, even the same one would change over the years.

Think, the Jedi Order of Exar Kun era, kotor era, republic/clone wars era, luke's era... all have modified views on things, guidelines, jedi doctrines, and even views on the force...

Luke's order is not the same. He did not have all the teachings, philosophies, manuscripts, discoveries, all the things which would have been in the Jedi Archive on Coruscant, and preserved when the Jedi disappeared. Palpatine struck so suddenly that there probably wasn't a hidden backup (The Jedi are somewhat naive at times...)

The Jedi are the protectors of the galaxy. They try and help others who need that help. As whole, the jedi order is a bit arrogant and fairly narrow minded, treating their order more like a religion.
Outside of the main movies there has been an expansion upon the simple good/evil beliefs. We see that with Revan and with the exile. They are not Jedi from the order any longer but neither are they sith. They have transcended to something else much more capable.

The thing about the jedi is that they are teachers of the way in the force and also garduns of peace. Wich is all down to one thing becuase as were are told that the force is bined to all life wich in a jedi oppion should be protected at all cost. But the prob with that is What we have read and seen before that these two things dowt always go along with each other. Thats why in regards to the jedi diff between Kotor and the films. The jedi in Kotor serve the force first republic second, Movies Republic first Force second.

In my oppion

They bug me. They just piss me off. I don't know why.
It might be because they're just to calm, to peaceful. They don't laugh, or cry, or even smile enough.

True

Although I hate to be DS, most LS options aren't witty or funny but boring language that you've heard from all the "wise" Jedi. I wish more options would be available to you during conversations which not only showed light/dark orientation, but also personality.

I loved the funny come-ons you could say to Bastily in K1. Great stuff.

I guess I wasn't clear. By pacifists I meant in the games and only their methods. For example the whole jedi not going to war and sitting back and watching the fighting from afar.