In my opinion, the Jedi are gifted people who want to serve and protect
others. However, they are not perfect, and they're not above doing things
like lying if it's for the common good. They never told Darth Revan, for instance,
that he was Revan, and they never told Luke that Vader was his father. This
lying was not done for manipulative reasons, though, but out of fear.
The Jedi feared that Revan would turn back to the Dark Side if he knew the truth.
The Jedi feared what the Exile could do to the Force, and so they lied to the Exile.
The Jedi were afraid Luke might seek bloody revenge against Vader, which
would not be the Jedi way, and thus they hid the truth from Luke Skywalker.
They can also become arrogant, and I hate their views on love and passion.
I believe love is a good thing, although it can lead to jealousy and possessiveness.
The Jedi Order should have allowed Anakin and Padme to be married, and they
should have made him a Master before they put him on the Council. That way,
he MIGHT not have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force, but notice the MIGHT.
However, the Jedi believe that everyone deserves a second chance, like
Revan and Darth Vader. I'm all for redemption, so I'll stick with the Jedi.
If what you say is true Tysyacha about the Jedi and their fear, wouldn't they be already on the path to the darkside? In the words of Master Yoda, "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Yes we all have fear but then what exactly is it about fear that would lead someone to fall so far?
I do say this, the Jedi do believe in redemption at least in the games but lookin at Return of the Jedi when Luke tells Obi-Wan that ther was still good in Darth Vader, he seemed unwilling to believe that.
I guess it boils down to the individual and their inner strengths.
Revan and the Exile's Jediness depends on what path you take. If you are LS, then they are Jedi. If you are DS, they are Dark Jedi, IMO.
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.
The jedi are honerable powerfull wise beings i personaly would not say if i had the force what personal stand point on the Darkside/Lightside thing would be becuase even though i agree with the protecting off all life and teaching the ways off the force. I dont agree with there stand piont on Love and redempation. For exsample Do you really think everone is justified in being redemed no mater what they did do you really think someone like Palpatine or one off the sith lords off old would have been redemed by the jedi If they turned from the darkside. I sertely dont
Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.
Got it in one!
:D
Just because you are a force user doesn't make you a Jedi.
There is much training to become able to control yourself and the force enough to be trusted to go out into the gaalaxy and help others.
Which is what the order of Jedi do.
Some of their ideals however, are lost on me. Like the whole love thing.
How are we going to make little younglings if we aren't allowed to love?
Where do young hopefuls come from if not from jedi?
Why do the jedi pluck these youngsters from their families, for the greater good of the universe?
Some would say that's evil.
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?
Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.
If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?
Sounds like a page out of Jolee's book.
I still wonder where the younglings come from.
"The Force is in all of us but for some it is barely but a measurable whisper" Bastilla
In some ways even you are more capable than a Jedi. You could survive where they could not simply because you don't hear the Force as they do. Kreia to Atton
Excellent Thread! UBER KUDOS TO GRAY ON THIS :D
This is the meat and potatos of the Star Wars Universe right here.
Now to answer this I must first answer what are the characteristics of a PERFECT JEDI? I don't care about what Mace has done, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi. WHAT DOES THE JEDI CODE SAY THE PERFECT FULL-ON JEDI SHOULD, IN THIS CASE, FEEL?
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
Remeber, Obi-Wan is NOT "The Jedi" Anakin is NOT "The Jedi" they are single Jedi, a piece of a much greater whole, if you will. Thus you can't judge a whole by a single.
Now lets break down the Jedi Code
1. - There is no emotion; there is peace.
A. Emotion: Any strong "feelings." (forgiveness, love, and even pride. If they can't experiance pride, this would mean that arrogance should also then be unexperianed by a TRUE JEDI)
B. Peace: The absence of mental stress or anxiety.
2. - There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
A. This means they must be aware, never be unable to obtain knowledge
B. Knowledge: Experience with perception, learning, and reasoning.
3. - A. There is no passion; B. there is serenity.
A. They can't be intensely emotional.
B. Serenity: Free from stress, anxiety, or emotion.
4. - A. There is no death; B. there is the Force. (Heres a tricky one ;))
A. Death: End of life, departure from life.
B. Force: Physical energy or intensity, a powerful effect or influence.
5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. (Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it) The Jedi codes first line is "There is no emotion." Thus love is forrbiden. In the Sith Code it states "Peace is a lie, There is only passion, Through passion I gain strength." Some people say that this means that love is allowed by the Sith, and not by the Jedi. Wrong. Passion: A state of being intensely emotional, you can be passionate about manny things, not just love. To love someone or somthing shows a "weakness." Padme was Anakins weakness, and Palpatine used this to his advantage many times. At the end he lied to Darth Vadar, telling him he had killed Padme. Thus eliminating Vadars weakness. Sith do not tolerate weakness, and there for it must be eliminated.
Therefore the perfect Jedi would have no strong feelings, be absent of any stress of anxiety, would be experienced with perception, learning, and reasoning, and (This is only my opinon I supose) would not believe in death, but ever-lasting intense engery that has a powerful effect and influence over life. In my opinon these traits most imbody the Jedi Qui-Gon Jin.
Most people would say that Qui-Gon's decesion to make Obi promise to train Anakin was the down fall of the Jedi. Most also believe that Anakin was a false "chosen one"
However during the battle in the Second Deathstar, after Luke Skywalker had beaten Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker), Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) struk down Luke. In the end as Palpatine was slowly killing Luke, Vadar became no more and it was Anakins love for his child that gave him the power to over-come the darkness in his heart and finally defeat Palpatine. Thus I believe it was truly Anakin Skywalker whom brought balance to the force, and defeated the last of the Sith. So I think Qui-Gon actually did know what he was doing. ^.^
(Once again this is only my opinon) Is this not in a way how Revan started as a Jedi, went to Sith, and then once again became a Jedi in defeating a Greater Evil? (For the LS atleast ;))
The Jedi are the ones whom attempt to bring balance to the force. These codes and rules they follow are to aid them in bringing Balance to the force, and to remind them of their true goal. Equilibrium. All survive as a whole to live in peace.
The Sith care not for balance, or being equal. When your a Sith your the strongest or your weak, your never equal. "The strong survive, and the weak die."
To conclude, as long as even 1 person will only believe that "The strong survive, and the weak die" equilibrium will be unatainable. When everyone can finally accept equilibrium shall it be in reach.
> . < Once again thats just my thoughts > . <
Good point, I never thought of it in quite that way. Love did, afterall triumph.
However, two things:
1) There are no guidelines in the jedi code of love and procreation. Anakin did this in secret and against the jedi teachings.
2) Did Qui-gon actually know what he was doing? Last he saw Anakin he was a boy, hardly touched by the darkside. He dies. Many years passed, then Anakin's fall. Then many more years pass as Anakin reigns as sith lord. Finally, he turns his back to Sidious to save his long lost son. Killing the master and himself, but not before redemption.
I seriously doubt Qui-gon saw all of this while stealing a dab of blood from a boy.
I would have too If at the end of Revenge of The Sith Yoda hadn't said that Qui-gon had become a force ghost ;) For all we know he was watching Anakin throught ep 2-6 ^.^ What if Qui-Gon hadn't told Obi to train Ani? Would Duke, Grievous, and Sidious have destroyed the Rebellion still? ;) Thoese are the questions that get you thinking ^.^ Qui-Gon believed the boy would forfill the phropecy, and I believe he did ;)
lol, I wasn't trying to add love as a Jedi code >>> 5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. >>>>>>>(Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it)<<<<<<<< Thats the only reason I mentioned it there > . < I for one can't really know If Qui-Gon would or wouldn't have truly know(Just my opninon ;)). But I do know he was determined to have Anakin trained as a Jedi, even if anakin was to old, even if it men't dropping Obi as an apprentice, even after the council forbid it, even at the very moment he was dying. He had to have known that somthing about that boy that everyone else didn't ;)
Well, ui-gon might have foreseen it. As in KotOR 2 Kreia said something about the force allowing you to 'see' into the future. (My memory might be a bight rusty) However, here is my view of the Jedi:
The Jedi are much like the church, the set up is perfect, the church is (supposedly) set up by people (long ago) who God talked to directly. Therefore, the church is perfect, the positions are perfect, and just because someone fills that perfect position does not make them perfect. The person can choose to do what they are suppose to do, or to abuse their positions.
1. The Jedi have a set of guidelines, like we have the bible (or whatever religion you practice) which we can choose to obey or not obey.
2. The amount of power each Jedi position has and the positions in the church are perfect. The people that fill those positions are not perfect and never will be, but some might start to believe that they are, and become blind to there mistakes and cannot fix them.
3. In the KOTOR games there was the 'fall of the Jedi', which I believe is the Jedi consul could not admit there mistake of (mutiple choice here)
-not explaining the plan to the Jedi who felt the need to save the innocent being slaughtered by the Mandalorians
-Could not come up with a plan in time and just covered their butts by saying they had a plan
-Thought the right thing to do was stay out of the fight, then that they should have gone to war to stop it, where too arrogent to see their mistakes and blamed it on those who went to war trying to save countless innocents. Therefore, starting (or not stopping) the Jedi Civil War.
Now my whole veiw of Jedi and their ban on love is this: If you love someone (spouse, or offspring) then when they are killed you feel anger and are more susseptable to the DS and revenge. The Jedi are there to help society, and if they allow themselves to love, then they will be bias, wanting to give more to there loved ones rather than a complete stranger. As such, love cannot exist without hate, and hate cannot exist without love. If you let one in, you let both in, and the Jedi (I think) would rather avoid the whole thing entirely, no love, no hate, no strong emotions. As an enemy could use those emotions against you, especially if you are allowed to love.
Yes there are guidelines for they Jedi but they are not perfect. Jolee says it in KOTOR. Love and passion are not the same thing, check out the OED meaning of love and passion.
Leaves the discussion table
By the way JediMasterDeath, I started this thread.
My oppion on this is we all have diffrent views on this i agree the perfect jedi would follow the jedi code to the letter. And that Anakin was in fact the chosen one in the end due to his love for his Son. So his love Was His weekness and then his strength. But i belive That The jedi order in the expanded universe has it right the most because They dont ban love relashoips Luke and his fellow masters are told to be always mindfull off their fellings and to take strenght from them. The old jedi order should have taken the same stand point in my oppion. And to be honest the old jedi did kind off almost love each other because that attachemnt for master and apprentince was vergin on this. (Agin in my oppion) They semed to gain strengh From this wich is an emotion.
P.s Watch Ep2 and listten carefully You can hear Qui-Gon Shouting anakin !!! When he lose it with the Sand people.
(snipped) The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us....We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.
Going philosophical here, and not trying to attack anyone personally, it just happens that jedi3112 did a nice job of summing up Sith views (which are not mine).
Well, let's take the Sith philosophy to its logical conclusion. If Sith are philosophically and genetically superior, then they should continue to purify their gene pool and become a Super-race by killing off anyone inferior. What's inferior? Anything that makes the race or empire function improperly is inferior. Anything or anyone that does not contribute to the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior. Anyone who doesn't agree with the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior (because if they truly believed, then they would agree). Anyone who is not liked/useful to his superior is inferior. Who determines what is superior? The guy at the top of the food chain--the Sith Lord. What does this lead to? A Sith Lord determining who and what is 'superior' (regardless of whether he's actually correct or not). Destruction of anything and anyone who does not contribute to the Sith Lord's wishes. Stifling any creativity (including that which could improve the empire or people in unique ways) if it does not conform to the Sith Lord's views or wishes. Conforming blindly to the Sith Lord's wishes, even if you know he's incorrect, for fear of being eliminated if you question his orders. Subjugation of entire races and planets. Destruction of anything the Sith Lord doesn't like or anyone who attempts to stop him. Desire to expand the empire by any means possible in order to gain more power over enemies, including enemies in his own ranks. Development of a police state to control those he has subjugated. Genocide, if the Sith Lord decides that it's in his personal (or his empire's) best interest.
The Jedi are meant to be the antithesis of this philosophy.
Do they always succeed? No, because they are imperfect beings just like everyone else (or, at least they're as imperfect as George Lucas writes into the script :) ). Both Jedi and Sith are blessed with incredible powers due to the Force. However, the Jedi choose to wield this power for the good of the galaxy, not for personal gain. They represent all that is good and right in the universe. Their goal is to root out and destroy evil, protect those who can't protect themselves, dispense proper justice, and foster a safe environment in which people can grow and develop. Because they are constantly required to mediate and/or fight in volatile or dangerous situations, they require a tremendous amount of training in order to wield their gifts for the good of the universe. They have to be skilled in diplomacy, politics, psychology of various races, history, strategy, tactics, and fighting if the need comes. They have to be intelligent enough to see all the various options and wise enough to discern which one is the correct option in any given situation. They have to handle their gifts with a great deal of responsibility, honesty, humility (arguably something missing in some of the masters in the movies), honor, and grace. Even though they control great power, they have to recognize that they are simply servants of the Force and those around them. The Jedi Order was created by imperfect beings, so it's not going to be perfect itself, although they are always well-intentioned. The Jedi is a group of beings who are trying to do their best to analyze and interpret any given situation and respond wisely in a way that is going to ultimately provide the most beneficial effects on the universe. The Jedi Order is meant to provide a framework in which a Force-sensitive person/being can develop his unique powers from apprentice through master in such a way that the Jedi hones his skills to the greatest degree possible while minimizing the corrupting influences of the dark side. While it is not always perfect, the Jedi Order's goal is to protect its own as much as the rest of the universe from the dark side. So, the ultimate Jedi is one who wields the Force with a great deal of strength, who is always seeking to make himself a better person, who attempts to make the lives of those around him more positive, and who does so in an honest and humble manner, knowing he is a servant of the Light.
Ok, enough philosophy for now! :)
Good points. If people think the Jedi are slow to react, what about the Baran Do?
The Jedi look at the whole picture, the whole thing about the greater good. You Sith like to look at the here and now and not the future. That's why you guys are always dying; power but no longetivity.:p
The Jedi are flawed. The Sith are flawed. They both have weaknesses and strenghts. But in the end, both fail at different times. The Sith, the early Wars. The Jedi, Order Sixty-Six. You must not fear the dark side, use it, but keep your emotions in check. You must have a perfect balance between the two to be at peace, and to never have your Empire, or Order, get destroyed. The only beings who had this kind of serenity were.... Revan ( lightside ), Jolee Bindo, Klye Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Anakin Skywalker kind of had it, and the greatest of them all, Jacen Solo. He knew what the Force truly was, and recognized the advantages in wielding the Light and Dark Side of the Force. He was the perfect Force user.
What about Yoda? Vandar Tokare? Obi-Wan? They all seemed pretty serene.
Obi-Wan and Yoda were pretty serene, yes, but were they wise, no. They could not sense the Sith threat until too late, much like the Jedi Civil War. As the prophecy of the one said, A chosen one will be born, and will tip the scales to balance, but only one will truly mourn. I got this from my brother, Steve. He works with Lucasfilm. He's a cameraman. Back to my point. The Jedi felt too safe. And they were all but conquered. This why Revan attacked the Republic. After the Mandalorian Wars, the Republic felt too safe. So Revan gave them a new threat. This kept them sharp and alert.
I see Why you would say that jacen Solo is the perfect jedi because he can see The advantage to use both side of the force. According to what weve read thats the only way the jedi were able to defeat the Vong. But In the Dark Nest books we read that Luke is trying to change this appion on the force To be more mindfull of the darkside. Because it caused the Fall off one off The jedi knights Alema Rar. And he is undoubtfully the gratested Jedi in the Expandend Universe (my Opppion). They have become to dependint on that attudde and become less mindfull off the darkside sway on them. Which is the gratest risk in this oppion.
While I were reading trough the thread I noticed a patern.The hypocrisy(?), the lies and the arogance comes from one group of Jedies, the masters, the powerfull and the respected.
Obi Wan, Yoda, Vrook, Bastilla...
While tho ones that can see the colours is the ones that have traveled into the twilight zone of the force, such as Jolee and Kyle.
And for keeping my self on topic:
I see the Jedies as galactic police, and kinda like a japanese fighting thingie.
The ninja's belived that they had to leave their emotions to be good ninjas, the name "ninja" comes from nin (The own heart pirced) and ja (human).
(Ninja's wearn't wariors, but more spies wich only killed when needed, or when the mission were assationation)
But enough of my half asleep ramblings...
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.
There is no death, there is the Force.
It doesn't say the light side of the Force
A true Jedi should be a servant of the Force, he does not seek to influence it or command it. He uses it in the way which it dictates. The Jedi are dedicated to bringing balance to the Force. Lucas has stated that Anakin brought balance to the Force not by reducing the number of Jedi but by finally destroying the Sith.
The Jedi serve the "light" because the darkness is easy and therefore apt to grow. The Jedi fight the dark side because if they don't it will win and the balance will be destroyed The dark side feeds off itself and grows stronger, the galaxey needs the Jedi to fight it.
So what is the dark side? Well the Jedi believe it is a corruption of the true Force and I am inclined to agree. The Force is nature and the dark side does not exist in nature, in fact the dark side is a manifestation of the Force twisted within an individual.
So if the Jedi are the guardians of the will of the Force why were they destroyed? They became arrogant, a trait common in Sith, a Jedi is suppossed to be in control of their emotions, they have them but they do not allow them to rule their thoughts or actions. Pride and arrogance are of the dark side, these began to seep into the Jedi philosophy and their power began to diminish.
How did the Jedi become arrogant, like anything of the dark side it was very easy. If a Jedi feels the Force and lets it guide him then obviously his every action is right and the will of the Force. Once a Jedi begins to think this way he rejects the possibility he could be wrong. Now he has pride and is arrogant.
What bothers me about TSL is that the Jedi there seem to have the same level of arrogance as in the prequels, even though en masse they didn't have it forty years ealier and are still rebuilding after the last Sith War. Interestingly enough the same level of arrogance doesn't seem to be present in KOTOR, even in Vrook.
Well at least starwars.com claims there are 2 sides of the force:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/)
[...]The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.[...]
We all no there is two sides two the force lets be honest my appion off the force is that is is basicly the power of life. Eg the two sides are life and death nether are inhertly evil they just are a part off it. and the jedi and sith teach and use both depending on there own indvidual values and oppions. ill explain what i mean The force rember has bein explained to use as part off life without the force there can be no life and as yoda told Anakin that if one die's not to fear or morn this because that person has become one with the force.So hince Two sides off the force.
I myself agree with Lucas's own view of the Jedi. The Jedi the galaxy's samurai, galactic sheriffs that help the weak and protect the innocent.
Now the Jedi follow the will of the force yet the Sith bend the force to their will. The rules of the Jedi are clear that attachments are forbidden, but secret relationships do happen within the Order. The exile admits to as much in certain conversation threads with the handmaiden. Not all Jedi that have lovers go darkside, look at Revan and Bastilla. In Anakin's case, his hunger to control life is what helped cause his fall. His greed to learn how to save Padme is what Sidious took advantage of.
I've read the New Jedi Order books too, and from them I think Force does not have a darkside. It's the darkside in all Jedi that cause them to fall. It's the individual that decides to do right or wrong and what they do after is what causes them to turn.
It's the individual personality of a Jedi that determines whether or not they are at risk of falling. Anakin showed those traits and that is what the council feared. Other Jedi have showed similar personalitys. Alema Rar, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade Skywalker, Zekk, and even Jaina Solo are some of those Jedi. All have turned darkside on some level at one point or another. Some were "saved" from the darkside, yet one is lost due to being corrupted by a more powerful influence.
Now this is just my personal view, but like in real life Jedi have to take responsibilty for their actions. Most do and seek the forgiveness of their peers. Some do not and choose not to. Those are the Jedi most at risk of turning "darkside".
Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.
PnP RPG's are about good and evil, or even order and chaos, at their cores, when making an RPG system for something like Star Wars sometimes the source material has to be deviated from to make a playable game system.
Fact is there is a Dark side the movies tell us as much, especially the OT, so there must be a Light side. This is where the games come from, and it actually makes better sense than Lucas' "cover-up his plot mistake" ramblings on the subject.
. . .But had the Council been more open minded and felxable with their code. . .
Can you be flexible and still have a code? That doesn't make much sense, it's like bending the rules for one person, it's not a good idea. Anakin knew what he was getting into when training to become a Jedi, he knew the rules, obligations and yet cried about the fact that he had to abide by them. Was he powerful, yes. But for some reason he believed he was an exception to the rules when he wasn't, like the "not being granted master on the council" scene. He believed that it was his right to be a master, even though he hadn't earned it from the right people. Exceptions can't be made in rules or a 'code' if you will, nothing good can come from it. Either obey the rules and accept the good consequences or disobey them and await your punishment.
Anyways, enough about that. The Jedi have their flaws, but nobody is perfect. I've always looked at Jedi as the "uncorrupted police" They go around the galaxy making sure that justice is intact. Justice isn't revenge and isn't one sided. The Jedi protect the galaxy form what it turned into during "The Dark Times" The Jedi ROCK!
Yes, Anakin's abilities made him arrogant.
Yes a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselevs even the older, more experienced Yoda
The grew too complacent. They thought that the Sith were extinct, instead of searching the galaxy for their arch enemies.
What do you do when you can't sense a threat? That was why Palpatine decided to strike when he did. He knew the Jedi couldn't sense it.
But they should have known not to trust their senses. Look at what haqppened during the Jedi Civil War. The Mandalorian Wars. The Great Sith War!
The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.
^ Yeah, but the remaining Jedi after the Jedi Civil War did just that and gathered on the Miraluka homeworld. Look what happened then. It would have been a better idea to do what they did after that disaster. Separate and go to places touched by war, Kavar's idea was a good one.
The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.
It seemed to me that the Republic would truly have fallen if Revan, Malak and the other younger jedi had not interfered (One dialogue option in KOTOR2 is (roughly) "The Republic would have fallen if Revan had not interfered. That's a fact!" (while arguing with Atris the first time)) and I do not think that the intention to lure an enemy out of the shadows justifies the sacrifice of millions or eventually billions of lives...
I am really not sure what would have been the correct choice, and I believe that this is the way the two KOTOR games put it - there is a lot of arguing about that point (even in KOTOR 1, e.g. the 2. Bastila - Carth conversation) without a definite answer.
Remember Jolee's words: The jedi have good intentions (at least most often), but they are not perfect ;)
Jolee was right, that's why a lot of people want him to be in the new Kotor as a force ghost. Even the best intentions can have tragic consequences. I think Kreia says that in TSL on Nar Shadaa. But also doing nothing but discussing what will happen if Jedi get involved in a matter is wrong too. If the council had done a better job at training the Jedi that left for the Mandalorian War, training them to turn away from conflict once a battle has been won. The exile had to learn that the hard way. When he witnessed all those deaths at Malacor V, he closed himself off the the Force. It took Kreia's training to bring him back to the Force. If more Jedi had gone through what he did, more would turned way from war and wouldn't have had followed Revan to war. By the time some of the Jedi council members realized this, the Jedi Civil War was already in full swing.
You may have a point there. I sense you may be a gray jedi or rather you see more gray than dark or light and both extremes annoy you :) Anyway that is valid. Even Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines that perhaps the teachings had become arrogant and even the Order itself. My question to you is this: what about Kreia telling Atton that it is conflict that strengthens us while isolation weakens? Or does Kreia not count because of her hatred for the Force itself?
You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force. :)
To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.
Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.
Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.
And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred. ;)
How do we know that the Republic would have fallen if the young, restless jedi wouldn't have interfered at that particular time?
The Mandalorians had only taken three systems way out in the outer rim,
systems that weren't even apart of the Republic.
(Does anyone know which ones they were?)
The Mandalorians are masters at war, their culture is defined by it. It was a dangerously masterful stroke to lure the jedi out. A brilliant move, if you play Chess, Go, or Dijarik.
Unfortunatly for them, Revan was the one to answer the call.
I wonder, would things have been different if Kavar had been the one?
I also wonder what would have happened if the strongest and most talented of the jedi would have stayed behind and made a concerted effort with the Republic forces and the resources and approval of the jedi counsel.
Steve-O Kreesh, Why put the blame of jedi falling to the darkside on the masters? Masters aren't omnipotent. They can't see everything.
Look at Qui-gon Ginn.
Do you think he would have still had Annakin trained if he could see what was going to become of him?
If the masters can sense every little thing about a person, then why couldn't they sense Sidious standing right next to them? ...bit of a stretch.
Oh, and about Kreia.
I think Kreia's hatred goes a bit deeper. Kreia is tormented by her belief that she once was and still is (like all jedi) a slave of the force.
...and she is fatally jealous of the Exile's ability to not only live without it,
but become stronger for it.
You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force. :)
To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.
Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.
Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.
And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred. ;)
Yes, I am in tuned with the Force as my brother tells me. You are right about the Jedi. I have watched the prequels Ep 1-3 and I find myself noticing the arrogance of the Council concerning the Sith. I have no problems in being neutral when it comes to diplomatic affairs and seeing both sides but as a Jedi I need training. If you would become my master, I would accept your teachings. :) I know of a sacred river and clearing where ritual meditation is held by the hunters on my homeworld Avalon.
To Cygnus Q'ol: Are Jedi Masters perfect? No, far from it. But as a group, they can identify potential Padawans by using their other senses, their instincts. True Masters know that you can't always rely on the Force. As people they should have good judgement on who they should train as apprentices. As supervisor at a business, wouldn't you want the best people to do the job required? Yes.
Your question on Qui-gon is a good one. IMO, he was to focused on the here and now. He saw Anakin as the Chosen One, and at that point and time he saw fit to have Anakin trained. Did he see the risks? No, but the council did. Yoda himself sensed much fear in young Skywalker. Mace Windu was adament in refusing to train Anakin. They sensed something not quite right with Anakin, they were right to refuse to train him. It took Obi-Wan to promise Qui-Gon to train young Skywalker, when Qui-Gon was dying. Obi-Wan then threatened the council to train Anakin with out the council's approval, which forced their hand. They were not going to let a promising young Jedi like Obi-Wan leave the order. Only then did they agree to allow Anakin to be trained.
Now about Darth Sidious. There are techniques to allow you to close yourself off from the Force. These techniques effectively hide yourself within the Force. By focusing inward, you can mask your Force signiture. I believe Sidious used a something similar to hide himself from the Jedi. It must be a Sith technique I'm not familar with.
I agree with you on Kreia. But she also loved the exile for turning away from the Force and then becoming stronger for it. I agree she was jealous of the exile, but she also loved the exile for the same reasons.
To JediMaster12: I could take you on as an apprentice, but before we travel to Avalon, you must first meet me here on Onderon. There is much to learn here, as I have done myself in my solitude. :) Plus the nearby moon of Dxun has much offer as well in lessons of the Force. :)
You would be wrong in my opinion, Steve-o-Kreesh. The Jedi needed to be destroyed, so did the Sith, and Kreai did what needed to be done, not willingly, no, but the Force works in mysterious ways. The Force created her, it seems, to hate the Force, and to attempt to kill off the Jedi and the Sith. I am currently learning about the White Current,a different part of the Force, and it seems that if you master it, you could see clearly into the future. The Light and Dark sides allow you to see dimly, not clearly. Jacen Solo knew this, and I see him with higher respect than Luke Skywalker or Revan. Steve-o-Keesh, I will learn about the Force with you, if you will allow me to, because my view is imperfect. It always will be. But with further study, I may be able to grasp its full nature. My sig says May the Force guide you! because the Force is always with you,t hough it might not always guide you.
@Steve-O-Kreesh: I will travel there on my ship The LoreSeeker
@Revan Skywalker: Just remember the Force is in all of us. To be able to see the flaws is not a sign of clouded view. Remeber TSL how they were quick to punish the Exile. To me that holovid was not really a trial more like a character bashing. I guess I am us to a trial by jury kind of thing. What I saw there was nothing more than an attempt to get things done and over with.
I have a problem with the way the counsel went about the Exile's so called trial. Jedi Master12 is right. That really didn't seem like a trial.
They all ganged up on the Exile, spit their un-researched accusations, took the lightsaber, and sent him packing without so much as a explanation or goodbye.
(In the movies)The counsel on Coruscant seemed to at least try to understand the threats they faced before they went into action.
...sending Kenobi on fact finding missions like Geonosis and such.
Like finding Dooku and hunting down Grievious.
Why didn't they at least try to understand what happened with the Exile?
I may be wrong, but I don't think any of those masters were at Malachor.
Nor did they investigate afterwards.
It just didn't add up to what my thoughts on the intelligence of the counsel really was.
In KotOR they acted too slow and Revan could wait no longer. Either they really were acting too slow, or their teachings weren't good enough to have instilled enough discipline to check Revan's actions.
In TSL, they acted too fast without thinking.
...almost as if they were in fear.
What would Yoda have done with the Exile?
What about Windu? Would they have acted as brash and ignorant?
Also remember that Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines insteading of trying to understand why the Exile did as he did they punished him instead. That sounded like regret and remember he said he was Jedi no longer. Could that be a hint that he took a leaf out of Jolee's book? What about Kavar? He knew about war himself having fought in what was it Exar Kun? Anyway Kavar seemed to understand better the choices the Exile made but he may have been driven by fear.
I think you were right in the fact that the Jedi may have acted in fear with the Exile. It seemed to show again at the final meeting on Dantooine. Fear does tend to make a person act rashly without weighing the consequences.
To Revan Skywalker: I'm sorry you disagree, but this is a forum, so I'm not surprised. :)
If you look at it from a certain point of view, Kreia did destroy the Jedi and the Sith. Kreia taught Revan, Sion, and Nihilis. All three killed many Jedi. She taught the exile, who effectively killed the Sith in known galaxy. He killed Sion and Nihilis and their followers. Kreia also corrupted Aeris, which the exile could choose to kill. Kreia herself killed the last three council members still alive. All that was left was the exile, the "Lost Jedi", and Kreia. It was up to the exile to start over, whether to rebuild the Jedi or the Sith was your choice.
I too hold much respect for Jacen Solo, he truly is what a Jedi is meant to be. He has an understanding of the Force. :)
I never thought of it that way Steve-O-Kreesh. Jacen Solo I'm guessing he was different from the start from his twin sister Jaina. From what I understand, he can see that there are no definite lines. Like you he sees more grey. As for Kreia, she was a manipulative witch trying to destroy the Force because she hates it yet she can't bear the thought of it being lost. Sounds like she has psychological issues and needs a therapist but how can someone be like that? Did it have to do with the betrayals of Sion and Nilhilis?