Im really...really getting pissed at the anti-honor or anti-RPG'ers around here. Seriously, what RIGHT do you have to say they are wrong in the way they play? they PAID 50 bucks just like you buddy. If they want to use it like a Instant Messanger i couldnt care less, i just go to a different server.
Really its getting annoying, not only that, but this "JA is dead" bs is really, really getting annoying. Last time i counted, JA has way more servers than JO and no, i dont use that buggy ass ASE.
If i want to swing my saber around like an idiot screaming "IM LUKE SKYWACKER IM LOOK SKYWACKER!" I damn well have the right to. And please, dont tell people to go play SWG...thats like telling someone to jump off a bridge, trust me on that one.
And all this "The game is anti-Competitive!" crap, well let me just remind you of the pre-patched JO - anyone who says that was perfect was living under a rock! I was one of the very first to purchase the game, and i have a clear memory of those days. Give this game time or dont let the door hit you on the way out.
So i ask, did i miss something, or is the total IQ of the Human Race dropping dramatically?
Point being, dont whine about RPG'ers or honor people, they have just as much right to play the game their way as you do (Unless any of them are using a Warez Version :rolleyes: ) And for those claiming it doesnt fit competitive players, Take your ADD pills and wait for a balance patch or shove a sock in your mouth and play another game! or, better yet, make a server with fitting setting, hell, you could make a JO Duplicate! Ugh, people these days... [/rant]
the problem is people wont leave a server if they dont like the way the server is run. i guess they just enjoy getting lamed or getting told not to lame:rolleyes: .
So i ask, did i miss something, or is the total IQ of the Human Race dropping dramatically?
slowly but surely
The problem with the honour and RPG players is that the majority of them try to force they way of playing down everyone elses throats. But saying that some hack 'n slash (or trigger happy, which ever your prefer) players are just as bad
Heh,ironic that you say that morning star, because "Normal" Players try to force their ways onto RPG and honor Players plenty of times...
As I said, some 'normal' players are just as bad, not all of us, but there are a few
I just started playing MP when I got JA this past fall, so I still consider myself a complete noob when it comes to it. I have yet to come upon an honor/rpg server. This isn't meant to sound mean, but is it that hard to name servers or have titles saying that it is an honor/rpg server? I think that a game that can be played different ways is a good game. I'm somewhat interested in the rpg style of the game. I'd like to see how it works. But, as a 'normal' player, i would like some forewarning before I enter a server to find it is an honor/rpg server.
Originally posted by SRF_Vader
Im really...really getting pissed at the anti-honor or anti-RPG'ers around here. Seriously, what RIGHT do you have to say they are wrong in the way they play? [/rant]
It's obvious you missed the rules of each gametype in the manual. Give me one page number in it where honor is even mentioned....
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
It's obvious you missed the rules of each gametype in the manual. Give me one page number in it where honor is even mentioned....
Look, I dont even play MP, and I dont even really give a toss about JA anymore, BUT, who cares if they dont mention that in the manual.
...It's simple, if the servers allow it, then let them honor d00dz be...as strange as they are.... just dont go to those servers..... and yes, honor players shouldnt get pissed if they are on a server that is pure FFA etc and cant chat to anyone without getting sabered/fragged....
just use some common sense peoples....
*laments at the misery of the JA MP community*
MTFBWYA
What I hate is that on an FF FFA, all poeple do is stand in a circle and talk, so I just go BF them and they get pissed, and I tell them, and why are you chatting in an FFA? They just called me a lamer... But it was funny, because the only server rules were, "NO WHINING!" and yet they were whining. Odd, eh?
Originally posted by SRF_Vader
...is the total IQ of the Human Race dropping dramatically?
Hmm, if I consider all the rpging peeps in first person shooters as Human Race: Yes.
Oh stfu you whining moron. Move on to another server until you find one you like. If you can't, **** off to some other game like everyone else has.
There you go, from the mouth of the hot-shot know-it-all, go to another server if you don't like that one.
;)
Well, I play mainly Siege and Duel modes in JA, (as well as the occasional CTF instagib disruption) so I haven't run across many "honorz" servers. One thing that seems to help me find out what a server is like is merely by spectating for a minute or so. If everyone's sitting around complaining about "lamers" and hitting on players using female character models, (yes I witnessed that once, it was so pathetic) then chances are you've stumbled across an "honorz" server. If, however, there's little to no chatting and people seem to be running all the time and firing guns, chances are you've run across a competitive server.
If you don't care for the server you joined, simply try to find another one. There are enough servers of both types to suit both gamer type's needs.
There are extremes of each, and it seems that many people like to point at the extremes when making a point. Many honor aspects I follow are out of tradition. When I first bought Jedi Outcast I joined a server with very few people on it and someone taught me the basics of dueling in red and yellow. One of the things he taught me was that it was customary to bow before a duel. Soon after I then joined the Jedi Academy(thejediacademy.net). Here I was also taught to bow before duels and that it is typically considered rude to attack players while chatting and to attack players with their sabers down. Thusly no matter what server I'm on I always bow out of tradition and with respect for my opponent (and yes I can respect someone I don't know.) I don't have any problems with competitive players-in fact for the most part I hold the average competitive player in high esteem. Almost every time I join a competitive server I get a healthy helping of beat down-sure I could probably beat a lot of the people playing there in a fair lightsaber duel-but then there is more to the game than dueling. The problem for me is when I do duel a competitive player and they make a point by attacking me while I'm bowing. I really don't care all that much if you don't bow, but I'd like you to at least be decent enough to let me.
Chat killing and killing a player with their saber down is differnt though. There should be little reason in a true FFA game for you to be chatting, AFK, or running around with no defense up. The problem is we don't have that many true FFA servers. What I mean is this-what is the point of a FFA server if there is no frag or time limit? It is extremely hard to be competitive in any way if there is no way to win in the end. Servers that enforce a honor code usually do not have a frag limit nor a time limit-and to me this presents another problem. If there is no time limit, and no frag limit, and no possible way to really win anything, then why in the world should you get upset if someone kills you, especially by accident? It's gotten so bad that if you misfire, didn't expect you saber to swing in a certain way, or do anything to kill someone else when they weren't prepared, you have a huge chance of getting flamed. Once for fun I was dropping my saber then running to various locations and pulling it to watch it fly through the air for fun (I was bored, so sue me.) Anyway, the saber accidently flew through someone and killed them. That person yelled at me for laming and then just decided to not say anything else to me for the rest of the night. I tried to reason with him but he just didn't say anything.
Don't get me wrong, in a community or honor based server I like having Rules of Engagement that keep things in order, I just want people to lighten up a bit and not jump on someone right away for "laming" them.
No matter what I try to play by the rules of any server I play on, and if I happen to not like the rules-I find another server.
Funny thing is, only the JK games turned out like this... All other games are always played the right way... Would be fun seeing people standing around chatting and calling each other lamers in UT2003 :p
The problem with the RPG and Honor guys is that large numbers of them hijack public servers and votekick and gangup and cuss out and otherwise harass people who just want to play the game as it was designed to be played
The "honor" folks are not playing the game as it was meant to be played so THEY are the ones with the gall to be telling everyone else how to play the game
Sadly a great many admins and mod makers in the JO community latched onto the idea that "honor" codes should be universal no matter how silly they were so we got mods that included amlaming commands and we got ban happy admins and servers with more rules than fun
Thus you can see the resentment for the game ruining behavior that was wrought by these folks whether it was their intention or not!
"Honor" in a video game is contrived and counter-fun in my opinion. Good point, I haven't seen any non Jedi Knight games that featured "honor" (though I have HEARD that Heretic II was the first game that included it, and many players say that it "ruined" that game).
Originally posted by Rainer511
Don't get me wrong, in a community or honor based server I like having Rules of Engagement that keep things in order, I just want people to lighten up a bit and not jump on someone right away for "laming" them.
No matter what I try to play by the rules of any server I play on, and if I happen to not like the rules-I find another server. If more players had your attitude, all would be cool :)
yea exactly,
i dont see why people get so frustrated when someone kill them while their just chatting or sitting around
Originally posted by Kurgan
The "honor" folks are not playing the game as it was meant to be played so THEY are the ones with the gall to be telling everyone else how to play the game
To play devil's advocate for a minute; competitive players aren't playing the game as it was meant to be played either. After all, where is /suicide mentioned in the manual?
go back to ur ghetto mister "PULL THROW LAMER!"
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Look, I dont even play MP, and I dont even really give a toss about JA anymore, BUT, who cares if they dont mention that in the manual.
...It's simple, if the servers allow it, then let them honor d00dz be...as strange as they are.... just dont go to those servers..... and yes, honor players shouldnt get pissed if they are on a server that is pure FFA etc and cant chat to anyone without getting sabered/fragged....
just use some common sense peoples....
*laments at the misery of the JA MP community*
MTFBWYA
Fair enough as long as the Honor doodz don't try to force that crap in servers where people play the game instead of standing around talking....but the problem is they do.
My point is people like to play FFA not turn it into a gay "standing around" and chatting program.
Oh good, we needed another thread about this.
Actually, we didn't.
Use the search tool to learn about this discussion. At length.
Basically, the reason why there is so much animosity from Non-Honourz players is because of what Kurgan said. Most players would leave them alone if they left others alone. This hasn't happened.
Hehe, guys quit using the manual as a fallback... I'm currently using mine to as a coaster and I feel left out when you talk about it :( Condensation has left me with black blotches that speak of the force...
only thing that pisses me off are the ones that spam the same moves over and over just to get a kill and then think they owned you and they are the better player......real players learn control rather than just the moves themselves and it is dubious to think you own anyone when you can't even do things other than the basics within a game...
Originally posted by SRF_Vader
Heh,ironic that you say that morning star, because "Normal" Players try to force their ways onto RPG and honor Players plenty of times...
Thats a good point. But there is nothing wrong with true RPG players. The rpg players people talk about here usually are people who use the honor code and rpg thing to hide behind as a shield and then attack other players and stuff as if the honor code does not apply to them also.
Originally posted by Morningstar
As I said, some 'normal' players are just as bad, not all of us, but there are a few
THIS is the truth which most people do not realize
I've noticed when ever 2 expert players dominate versus 6 or even 8 standard runofthemill jk3 players in ctf. The score probably goes to be around 20 -0 by the end of the map in favor of the team of 2. All the other players probably join the team of 2 by the next map just to be on the winning side. People hate to lose. Everyone does. But its the refusal to except loss that started this controversy.
This may sound like a rant but most of the normal players are considered to be the "honor " (honor as in kick/ban/sleep enforcers not in the actual original honor code) players by most ladder good players. However, these days it seems to be that 99% of the people that complain against honor people are the normal players who orignally were honor people who jumped the bandwagon after a few expert sabers players and semi experts such as Unnamed jedi, break, reborn, fallen, rumor, and the list goes on voiced their opinions.
Most of these normal players do not have the legitimate right to blame honor players about anything. They simply jumped the bandwagon to blame another group of players. Earlier in jk2, these “normal run of the mill players” jumped the bandwagon to lay the blame of the experts. They are simply a fickle community of more nubs who just simply follow the opinions of the majority. They hate how “honor” folks unfairly win (or as they believe) through the honor code. But if they actually meet a ff saberist expert or a great gunner they could cry about unfairness too. The only reason why they don’t complain is because so few of the so-called old school jk2 elites exist anymore (almost none exist in public servers) that they don’t meet with the gods of jk2 anymore. Consequentially, disillusionment arose and they believed they could have the privaledge to be up in the same league as the original campaigners for the anti-honor code.
This may sound pretty crazy but its most likely the truth.
No I don't consider myself a top-notch gunner (aka top 10 of twl or a great euro player). But I can guarantee to be pretty up there compared to most people who havnt played much ctf jk2.
Actually, the reason I became (publically) anti-honor was because of Artifex.
I just assumed the random "saber off = peace!!!" people were random whiners until he posted his anti saberist code threads...
Wait, hold up, IIRC, his threads were in RESPONSE to the "saberist code" threads before that, so actually, it wasn't any "good players" who "beat me at sabers" that turned me against the honor ideas.
I was "pro honor" in JK1 (circa 1997-1999) but only for one on one dueling, and the reason was that the game itself had no way to regulate duels. JK1 and MotS had no "dueling mode" (only "sabers only" deathmatch). If the game was Full Force guns I had no problem using every weapon and power in the game. People whined and I smacked them down for whining! We all did.
"Honor Codes" only made sense for dueling anyway. I think the obsession with "honor" though really came from the Heretic II community and a few fanboys who thought they were roleplaying Samurai (you know the type, the type who brags about his Kendo classes and such).
JK2 gave "duel honor" people all they could possibly want to regulate a fight, but that wasn't enough, people had to make it even stricter, with the "bowing" nonesense, which came out of nowhere (bowing, in Star Wars?? again, look at the Martial Arts/Kendo junkie and his fantasies about being a "true warrior").
It (JK1 version of the "honor code") was also more open ended than the "honor code" that people in JK2 or JA follow, none of this "I was typing!" crap, once you start a duel it continues until one of you dies (no healing, no outside interferance), that's it.
So no, turning against "honor" is not an excuse because I am a sore loser (far from it) or that I "lack skill" (I'm not the world's greatest player, but I hold my own and I don't whine).
Rather, my dislike of honor is due to the fact that it's absolutely unnecessary in JK2 and JA, and it has fueled new generations of whiners and sore losers who try to force their beliefs on the majority.
Maybe my beliefs sound dogmatic as well, but there's a difference, I'm arguing for the default condition of the game, the same standard that all other FPS games are held to, and the way the designers initially intended. In other words the "natural way to play."
I’m not pro honor but neither am I supporting the misunderstandment that the original people who designed the system did not mean for so much trouble to show up. A better method to have it would just to have simple respect for players, similar to in jk1 nf sabs. If two people are 1v1ing, the specs don’t interfere. They start their own 1v1. In ff guns sabs or ffa its usually either ffa, teams, or 1v1. Pretty much any type of ff gametype in jk1 was no rules. People didn’t type as much though.
I am anti-honour because all I want is to be able to play the game as it was designed (i.e. fragging people). I am even willing to put up with a little saber down = peace from a few players every now and then. If you are chatting when you are out of the way I won't attack. If a server is clearly labeled an RPG server, I will avoid it.
But if people expect me to sit and be happy when the majority of public servers have most players sitting around chatting or running around with all their sabers off demanding not to be attacked, forget it. It is to bad that I feel I have to takes sides, but I have chosen mine. :(
Originally posted by =X=Master HeX
Hehe, guys quit using the manual as a fallback...
When it comes to understanding the original design for gameplay, the manual is anything but a "fallback."
I think the thing to do in these cases is to learn to adapt, and make your own choices. Don't like how people are playing on a specific server, then leave that server, and try finding one in your taste. If you cannot adapt to rules, and you just HAVE to enter a server with honor and go crazy with your dual sabers, don't be surprised if you get punished by an admin.
That's how I like everyone to think.
Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 gave "duel honor" people all they could possibly want to regulate a fight, but that wasn't enough, people had to make it even stricter, with the "bowing" nonesense, which came out of nowhere...
I've noticed these bowing morons in the early JK1 days already.
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
To play devil's advocate for a minute; competitive players aren't playing the game as it was meant to be played either. After all, where is /suicide mentioned in the manual?
since when is a command that has been hard coded into the engine since quake 1 "not playing the game as it was supposed to" ? Thats one hell of a bull**** excuse, next time please actually refrain from posting if you can't think of anything.
I'm somewhat peculiar in how I like to play JA and JO.
I don't like to attack first.
I rarely attack someone if their saber is down (the exception being punks that like to attack, then put their saber down the moment things turn against them, and punks that like to kick attack people, then cry foul if you draw a lightsaber on them).
I don't like to attack from behind.
I even tend to bow before a duel.
I won't generally attack people who are trying to type, and I never attack people who are obviously having connection problems.
I also think that how often someone dies has as much to do with how much skill you have as how many people you kill.
I think every force power, attack, and gun in the game is fair game. I personally prefer to use lightside powers, but I also think both the light and dark side are good for neutralizing the other (so I abhor it when a server blocks certain powers from either side because it horribly unbalances the gameplay).
I also don't see the problem with things like "camping", or running for a nearby health boost when I need it, or using a health item when I have one.
You know what, though? I don't expect everyone to play like me. I don't want everyone to play like me. What do I do if someone attacks me when my saber is down? You better believe I have that saber up in an instant. What do I do when I get in a duel and while I'm bowing my opponent is suddenly sending a special delivery of 'Death from above!' my way? I get out of the way and return the favour. What do I do if a so-called 'grip whore' tries to get an easy kill by tossing me off a cliff? I use force absorb and make them break out the lightsaber to work for their points. How do I deal with someone that's camping? I figure out a way to get at them, then I take the spot for myself (and keep an eye out for the same guy, before they use the tricks to get at me). What do I do if someone kills me when I'm having connection problems? Well, I've generally found that if a person needs to stoop to that to get points, they're generally not very good at the game and I usually have no troubles smacking them down again and again until I feel we're even.
But because of the way I play, I generally find it very silly to see a lot of the whining and complaints here in the forums (and just as much in the game itself). Everyone seems to be whining that people won't play the way they think everyone ought to play.
It seems to me that the stereotypical 'honourz' players don't give two s**ts for honour, they just want everyone to bow before they try to beat each other up with glorified virtual glowsticks, and heaven forbid someone get tired of that and whip out an assault rifle. Such and such powers are wrong, because they're cheap. Blah, blah, blah.
The stereotypical '1337' gamers crowd is no better, constantly pissing about the RPG people and the honourz people, while pissing on about how this force power is cheap, or about how so-and-so-k3n0b1 is "camping" and they can't wrap their brains around enough strategic thought to figure out a way to take advantage of that, or even (gasp) grab a bunch of the other guys playing, and everyone rush the poor sap with his back to the wall and no way out, then leave a couple mines in there in case he gets the same idea again.
The RPG crowd seems to be a bunch of poor saps that just want to take advantage of some of the great maps and player models out there to have a bit of old fashioned tabletop roleplaying using the games weapons instead of dice rolls and stat sheets, but it seems they get blamed for a lot of the crap that comes from the so-called 'honourz' group. Unfortunately, a lot of them probably can be lumped into the hnourz group, and a lot of them are probably trying to roleplay on non-rp servers. STUPID.
In the end though, there's more crossover in ALL of these groups than most people on these boards seem to think, and they all want to bitch and moan about how everyone else plays, forcing their own views of how the game should be played down everyone's throats.
Originally posted by Rumor
since when is a command that has been hard coded into the engine since quake 1 "not playing the game as it was supposed to" ? Thats one hell of a bull**** excuse, next time please actually refrain from posting if you can't think of anything.
I don't believe my comment was directed to children who fly off at the handle when a legitimate comment is made.
If you can't do anything but whine, please refrain from posting.
werent u that guy that whined all day about pull throw?and drain?
And how do you define whined?
I had suggestions, but I don't think I went as far as to claim that someone should stop posting.
Is there something you want, or are you just bored?
<Announcer's voice> And they're off!!
Never mind some people Silver, in their eyes, any word from ones mouth is "whining".
Originally posted by Darth Kaan
It's obvious you missed the rules of each gametype in the manual. Give me one page number in it where honor is even mentioned....
well it does say on pg 43
"REMEMBER, YOU'RE PLAYING WITH OTHER PEOPLE
Try and conduct yourself in an non-offensive manner"
If attacking unarmed players is considered offensive in a server than dont do it or leave. That Simple. Go to ANOTHER server.
another thing, rules are made inside the server, belive it or not, servers have rules in other games too
Im really...really getting pissed at the anti-honor or anti-RPG'ers around here.
Good. Then I know I'm doing my job right.
Seriously, what RIGHT do you have to say they are wrong in the way they play? they PAID 50 bucks just like you buddy.
Enter Exhibit A and B... I don't remember the title of Exhibit C so I won't bother.
Exhibit A: The Saberist Code (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42883)
Exhibit B: The Anti-Saberist Code (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43763)
Now, if you were here at all when the Code Wars occured, forget about playing the game. Either you were too busy attempting to vote kick a professional player out of the game, or chatkilling the first group attempting to boot you from the game because they were afraid of getting whacked when their weapons were active.
The Saberist Code was a piss poor excuse for those who could not take the heat. They wanted the easy way out of things; make love, not war. They thought respect was supposed to be given across the board, that anyone and everyone who did not conform was a barbarian; a lamer.
However, I was brought up in both the age of Quake as well has managing to compete in athletics over the years. Respect is not given. Respect is earned. You prove your worth through what the game is: close quartered saber/force combat (no guns here, and maybe no force... that is "lame," remember?). You don't show it through sitting around in ctf_bespin singing coumbyah.
Also, at the same time, there were inconsistencies and hypocracy laced into the Saberist Code, and with the coupling of the Admin Mod, there was rampant abuse. While people like Hex and C1 have tried to stem the inevitable, ****nuts try to pull for the popularity appeal and end up as the fanboi's bedbuddies.
Really its getting annoying, not only that, but this "JA is dead" bs is really, really getting annoying. Last time i counted, JA has way more servers than JO and no, i dont use that buggy ass ASE.
And I'm sure the server searching program provided with JA is up to snuff. /sarcasm
If i want to swing my saber around like an idiot screaming "IM LUKE SKYWACKER IM LOOK SKYWACKER!" I damn well have the right to.
Good, well I'm a "Dark Lord of the Sith" or whatever you yuppies are up to these days. This is the part where you die.
And please, dont tell people to go play SWG...thats like telling someone to jump off a bridge, trust me on that one.
Then please do us all a favor and jump off said bridge, so we don't have to see another one of these threads again and also get another shot at setting the gene pool right.
And all this "The game is anti-Competitive!" crap, well let me just remind you of the pre-patched JO - anyone who says that was perfect was living under a rock!
1.02 was much better then what 1.04 was in its endgame. While the competitive scene adapted to 1.04, people learned how to get around Drain's imbalance and the rotatable DFA if they stuck with 1.02 long enough. I'd like for my saber to be used as a weapon (1.02), not a glow rod at a rave (1.04), thanks.
And after all, whose bitching was it that got JO 1.02 patched? It wasn't the anti-honor community, last I checked.
I was one of the very first to purchase the game, and i have a clear memory of those days. Give this game time or dont let the door hit you on the way out.
You want the blinders off now or later? It's pretty obvious that either a.) you stuck with a server that was backwatered and out of the loop, or b.) didn't find the "base" of the community until much, much later. I'm hoping it's the latter.
Point being, dont whine about RPG'ers or honor people, they have just as much right to play the game their way as you do (Unless any of them are using a Warez Version ) And for those claiming it doesnt fit competitive players, Take your ADD pills and wait for a balance patch or shove a sock in your mouth and play another game! or, better yet, make a server with fitting setting, hell, you could make a JO Duplicate! Ugh, people these days...
LEC has rights to when the patch is produced and distrubuted. They were the reasons why JO went down the ****ter like it did, and JA is following that same path if you haven't been paying attention. It's required the patience and molding of people like Hex and C1 to keep JA stable in gameplay. Raven wants to come play, but LEC is yanking the chain. Until you understand that and see that there is no such thing as the "balance patch," step off.
You really have missed the boat here and landed in the river. I hope the piranahs have a real nice time with you.
Originally posted by Squee-sithguy
well it does say on pg 43
"REMEMBER, YOU'RE PLAYING WITH OTHER PEOPLE
Try and conduct yourself in an non-offensive manner" That rule goes both ways, friend.
If everyone follows the honour code, there will be no lamers to bring to justice! :D
Ok, a few thoughts on this whole debate/controversy.
My recollection of the Sabreist Code was that it came out of two mindsets and was equally adopted by the two different mindsets. On the one hand, some folks felt that it was a good thing to show respect to your fellow gamers during a game, as you'd hope they'd show to you. Hence, the code. Others, I suspect, adopted it because it typing "Hey! SC on this server!" is quicker than typing "Do over! Do over! The sun was in my eyes! No fair!" There's also a minor third camp that was more circumscribed than the first group -- they felt that certain moves in the game or force powers were unbalanced/broken/buggy/no fun to play with or against. For example, the DFA prior to 1.3, and the backstab from 1.3 to 1.4. These were moves that were continually spammed by players, and it really DID make the game no fun to play, but plenty of folks said "Hey, long as I win, i don't care." So, some folks said, "Screw that, I'd rather have fun than win all the time using a move that is no fun -- I promise not to spam lame moves like that unless and until they're fixed."
Now, from my point of view, showing respect to your fellow players is fine and a good thing. By the same token, not spamming a move that might as well be considered an exploit is also ok (and I think, at this point, it's pretty clear that the backstab at least in 1.3 WAS an exploit, much like the blue lunge in midair to stop yourself from falling was -- an unintended oversight in programming which led to the player who used it gaining a significant advantage). The "I'm pissed because I can't win, so I'll take any excuse I can to complain" crowd, however, I have no patience for.
In response to this argument came the Anti-Sabreist code, which basically can be summed up in the phrase "No holds barred" from what I can remember. Basically, if it was in the game and you didn't have to hack things to do it, knock yourself out -- it's fair. For those of you who DON'T remember, though, Artifex himself ended up posting a grand "resignation/I quit" thread about how the game just >shock! amazement!< wasn't any fun anymore when it basically devolved into who could spam pull/kick/backstab or some similar combination the fastest. I had very little pity for him when he posted it, and I still have very little pity for people who have the "win by any means necessary" and then become disgruntled when they find that "any means necessary" basically boils down to being a one-trick-pony. Like I said, the two reasons why I sort of supported the sabreist code was because I believe in treating my fellow gamers with respect (even if I don't actually respect them), and because I viewed a lot of the one-shot-kill moves as pointless, and hoped to find a place where I could get a more entertaining fight (thus, no backstabs, DFAs, or any of the other broken-ass moves that JO had).
So, people pissed and moaned about this stuff for a while, I got bored with JO, moved on, and when I came back, discovered a whole new breed of loonies out there -- the RPGers. Now, first off, I'm an RPGer, but NOT in this game. I like Star Wars Galaxies, I enjoy a good game of AD&D, I like Fallout, etc. I never understood what the hell people would DO as RPGers in an FPS engine. There's no Game Master, there's no plot, it's basically just a graphical chat room. Even more so than the accusations that people make of SWG. At the very least, in those games, you can craft thing, explore planets, etc. In JO, you're limited to the map you're playing and the weapons and powers in the game which are specifically designed for one purpose -- FPS gaming. So, I never really "got" the RPG thing IN THIS GAME, and frankly found it rather stupid.
Now we have the "honorz" players, who've basically taken the SC and expanded upon it to the point where ANY time that your sabre is down, you're not allowed to attack the guy, using ANY move that isn't a basic one is somehow "laming", killing someone while typing is evil, using most force powers are evil, etc., etc. It basically takes what was already a rather extreme position to the realm of the ridiculous.
So, rather than bitch and whine about which group sucks the most (competitive players, honorz players, SC players, ASC players, RPG players, etc.) I think we need to focus on WHY these things happened. To me, the answer is both simple and complex. On the surface, it's simple -- Star Wars is, for many people, a personal experience. We all enter a game like this with certain expectations of how it will work and how it SHOULD work. We all show up with a particular set of preconceived notions of how close to the films things should be.
Where problems crop up is in the way the game has been executed. And frankly, aside from the SP experience (and even there), I've yet to play a game that can accurately and satisfyingly give me a lightsabre combat experience. There have been design problems in this game since JK1 in terms of sabre and force combat. Certain force powers always seemed somehow...off...although I was much more forgiving of this in JK1 (mostly because I was so damn happy to have a sabre at all -- by the way, I made a sabre patch for the original DF that was pretty popular for a while -- over 15000 downloads, which rather surprised me). JK1 I got tired of because no one played it where I could get a decent connection, ASE didn't exist when I was playing it, and I've never really enjoyed DM gaming (which was pretty much all there was -- CTF in that game sucked).
When JO came out, I was eager to play, and rather enjoyed the SP portion. The MP portion, however played entirely differently and (as of 1.2) felt more like jousting than a real sabre contest. In addition to that, you were limited to either full guns or no guns (as the game didn't ship with any class-based mods for mercs vs. jedi style action), so using a sabre basically became pointless in the game. Dueling sucked because you had to sit around in line to fight, but FFAs were worse because you could only engage in one "duel" at a time on the server (if memory serves). And again, CTF was lame. JO added new problems in the serious imbalance towards the dark side in 1.2 (absorb was worthless as all you had to do was wait it out then spam away with lighting), and EVERY version of the game had problems with uber moves, which frankly I don't think ever belonged in this game in the first place.
When JA came out, I was reluctant to buy it because, well, JO had been such a disappointment in terms of MP for me. Raven just NEVER got it right with that game. I found out that JA MP wasn't a whole lot better though. The limit on katas was nice, but for some reason, the sabre fighting just never really felt right. Red stance was too slow and clumsy, yellow was ineffective, blue was too fast and weak, and it all just felt like so much button mashing. I never like Mortal Kombat and I didn't particularly want to have to learn a new version of it each time a new Jedi game came out.
My point here is that it's THIS kind of stuff that I think is to blame for the codes, honorz, etc. Everyone wants a Star Wars experience the way THEY feel it should be, or at least they don't feel that what they got IS the Star Wars experience. so in that sense, I blame LucasArts and Raven for some of the community reaction -- they've never quite been able to give us a game that really FELT like Star Wars, at least based on how everyone reacted to the games. However, I only blame them because they bit off more than they could chew -- you really just can't give people a swordfighting experience the way you can a gun experience with the old mouse/keyboard combo. I doubt that, short of giving people some kind of pseudo-sword control device, that you could ever really do swordfighting justice in a video game. JK1 never felt right, JO never felt right, and JA never felt right in this regard. I always felt limited, constrained, whatever by the "moves" I could do and the way they were executed.
But think about it. Do you really think the "honorz" guys, the ASC guys, etc. would've gone to the point where they create some goofy code if 1.) the game didn't have buggy moves, 2.) the game was a closer approximation of the SW universe, 3.) sabre fighting was more engrossing than it is, etc.? I don't think so. I think people would've been too busy playing the game and having fun to bother with that crap. When you look at games like UT, Q3, RTCW, etc. you don't hear people complaining as much about "honor" or what have you. this is because those games are more engrossing, largely because the engines can let you do what you want to do. So, you get people trying to approximate the experience they want to have by creating rules and then imposing them upon others.
This is also where the problem lies -- people try to join servers then force OTHER people to play the way THEY want to play, regardless of the server rules. Now this is NOT something that's limited to the Jedi games series. This is EVERYWHERE in online FPS gaming. Go on a BF1942 server sometime and you'll see people complain about nade spam, spawn camping, plane camping, etc. I've seen this in RTCW too. It's just the nature of online gaming.
Ultimately, I think there are two angles by which we can SOLVE these problems.
1.) Create a Star Wars FPS game that does a better job of evoking Star Wars than what previous games have. Personally, as far as lightsabre combat goes, I'd like to see more subtle differentiation between the stances, not as many combos, more predictability/control over your sabre, and perhaps a game that uses the Seven Forms method of sabre combat (which has been described before and I won't bore you with now).
2.) Play on servers that are admined, or accept that it's anarchy out there. I play on a set of servers called the WOLF servers (where I also admin) for BF1942. It's great. It's a community of guys who have gotten together, adopted certain server rules, and enforce them. When we go to other servers, we play by THEIR rules, and expect people to do the same when they come to our servers. It makes gaming MUCH more fun when you don't have to fight with people about how the game should be played. So that'd be my major advice to people out there now -- play on servers with like-minded individuals. Follow the servers' rules. If the server has voting and you don't want to risk being voted off, leave. If the server is an ASC server, an SC server, an RPG server or whatever, go in there and play as you would normally. In terms of general etiquette, I'd suggest that, if the server HAS no rules, then there ARE no rules and there is correspondingly no such thing as "laming" ON THAT SERVER -- truly, anything goes there. So don't go in trying to force people to play a particular way (and if there are no rules, just run around and kill people -- don't try to turn it into EverQuest Lite). On the other hand, if EVERYONE in a server is doing X, don't intentionally piss them off by doing Y. Treat others the way you'd want to be treated. If you were calmly enjoying your no-holds-barred FFA game and two guys came in and started yelling at everyone to RPG, you'd get pissed just as much as they probably do by your showing up and saying "QUIT STANDING AROUND AND KILL SOMETHING!!"
If none of these things are an option for you, do what I did. Stop playing the game and find a different game. Honestly, JA doesn't do a whole lot for me anymore. It's too random, the sabre combat bores me, the guns are STILL quake ripoffs, CTF is still lame, and Siege Mode isn't much better (usually because there's too few people). I get my MP kicks from BF1942 now and from SWG. Maybe when they come out with a better Jedi MP game I'll play that, but I'm going to be VERY wary of it for a long time. I still doubt that they can really create a fun, non-Mortal-Kombat experience where you don't HAVE uber moves, where your stances are more subtly different than simply "This stance takes swings that last for five full seconds and have a three second recovery, but which hit for 50% damage, whereas that stance takes swings that last for .5 seconds, recover in .25, and hit for 5% damage". When they can give me more control over my sabre, and make it feel less like a glowing whifflebat, maybe I'll enjoy it more. 'Til then, there's always the Galactic Conquest mod for BF1942, and the upcoming Galactic Battles game. Here's hoping they're better than what we've got here.
After reading the original "Saberist Code," and "Anti Saberist Code," for the first time I have one thing to say-I think both the codes are screwed up :P
$50? i got it when it forst came out and it costed $90 just like every other first release game (well some r $100) where did u guys get the game?
Well said, Solo. I personally myself go by the 'honourz' code, but I don't whine like most people do when they get killed, unless of course, that lamer really gets on my nerves. I just laugh it off, and lame back the lamer when I respawn. We've a couple of idiots coming to JK3files server(no laming) and disrupting the fun there. They come in and shouted something like 'PLAY!!! STOP FREAKING STANDING AROUND!!! THIS IS NOT A CHATROOM!'. If you're not happy with the rules in a particular server, please leave. No one's forcing you to.
I'm some sort of a regular at chopshop too. There, I played the game unlike how I played it at JK3files. Spamming lightning to kill a couple of people really makes my day. It's even more funny when someone begins to jump up and call me lamer. Yesterday, I was at the CTF chopshop server, some guy couldn't kill me with lightning because I had absorb on. He(or she?) was pissed and called me a cheater, saying my computer has auto absorb on or something like that. I was like 'ROFL'. Before you call others an honour nub, know this: those honour people who don't whine when they get killed aren't honour nubs. Those that whine, my friend, are the real honour nubs.
Originally posted by .:Silver:.
To play devil's advocate for a minute; competitive players aren't playing the game as it was meant to be played either. After all, where is /suicide mentioned in the manual?
...moron.
*Ifts not writ in mah manUAl so U=L4M3R*
Originally posted by SRF_Vader
Im really...really getting pissed at the anti-honor or anti-RPG'ers around here. Seriously, what RIGHT do you have to say they are wrong in the way they play? they PAID 50 bucks just like you buddy. If they want to use it like a Instant Messanger i couldnt care less, i just go to a different server. Yet those "honourz" people go to servers with no rules listed and votekick people off the server who obey the "no rules" rules.
Really its getting annoying, not only that, but this "JA is dead" bs is really, really getting annoying. Last time i counted, JA has way more servers than JO and no, i dont use that buggy ass ASE.
I don't think Jedi Academy is dead...
If i want to swing my saber around like an idiot screaming "IM LUKE SKYWACKER IM LOOK SKYWACKER!" I damn well have the right to.
Go ahead, that's pretty funny. :p
And please, dont tell people to go play SWG...thats like telling someone to jump off a bridge, trust me on that one.
Yet you tell us to play another game.
And all this "The game is anti-Competitive!" crap, well let me just remind you of the pre-patched JO - anyone who says that was perfect was living under a rock! I was one of the very first to purchase the game, and i have a clear memory of those days. Give this game time or dont let the door hit you on the way out.
I have a clear memory of the 1.02 days. It was great!
And for those claiming it doesnt fit competitive players, Take your ADD pills and wait for a balance patch or shove a sock in your mouth and play another game! or, better yet, make a server with fitting setting, hell, you could make a JO Duplicate! Ugh, people these days...
Yet you say to not tell people to play Star Wars Galaxies. JO Duplicate? What does playing Jedi Academy in its true form have anything to do with having a Jedi Outcast duplicate?
Originally posted by _PerfectAgent_
Yet you tell us to play another game. I won't tell anyone to play another game, but I do wonder why they don't play Galaxies. It seems to me that Galaxies provides more or less exactly what the RPG players are looking for. They seem to mainly want to chat and communicate instead of fight, and Galaxies provides that. They want to act out characters, and Galaxies provies that. So why do players RPG gravitate to JA and not Galaxies? JA seems to be such a contrived way to RPG when Galaxies provides everything you would need.
Originally posted by _PerfectAgent_
I have a clear memory of the 1.02 days. It was great! Indeed. IMO all they needed to patch was the bugs, like the DFA collision box. I think the game would have been much better that way...