Hi All,
With the recent problems with the site, I thought I should start up my own thread so the others in the team can see my progress, and provide me with feedback & suggestions.
My assignment was given to me thus;
Please welcome jp-30 to the MOD. JP is a skin artist and
will be doing all the prop models for the maps that Kazashi has been modeling.
I'm about 1/2 way through the first batch of map objects, so thought it was time to show you how they're coming along. Feel free to offer suggestions, especially if you're part of the Mod team. :p
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/table0-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/smalite1-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/smalite2-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/lobvalve1-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/chain-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/beerpipe-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/ashtray-screenshot.jpg)
My Comments: Using Milkshape as my model viewer gives some unusual lighting effects. For example see the dark patches on the ashtray above that are not anywhere to be seen on the actual texture. These, I imagine won't show up in-game as dark patches.
I think I will make the skin on the beerpipe more intricate to match the original sprite.
I believe Darth_Linux will be taking care of the shaders for all the glowy bits on several of the skins. A transparency shader might also be in order for the holes in the chain links that are solid at present.
I assumed the tabletob was glowing from the sprite, but this feature can easily be removed if I've misread it. (??)
Also there's a smashed table , smashed chair, smashed lflrlit, smashed hanglit etc that I have no model or skinmap for. Are the smashed states of these objects being made via a 2nd skin (with transparency alpha channels) on the original model?
I didn't know you were working on the DF mod, jp. Cool! Looks like you are doing a good job. :D
those look very nice jp-30. i realize that youre only doing the skins for these world models, but on the smalite2 i think that the gray bars going up the sides should be round at the top. other than that, the models and skins are fine, and i cant wait to see them ingame or otherwise without the Milkshape lighting problem. i think theyll look a lot better. and shaders too...those should look great when theyre done! the table top would look really awesome all glowing or perhaps with a a moving static-type effect. good work! :)
P.S. i love the ashtray, i find it so funny they had one in DF..but maybe a little more definition on the cigarettes?
Hi Jeff. Uhh. Yeah, here I am... I was getting impatient waiting for the mod, so thought I'd join to try and contribute. :D
those look very nice jp-30. i realize that youre only doing the skins for these world models, but on the smalite2 i think that the gray bars going up the sides should be round at the top. other than that, the models and skins are fine...
Well, I'm just working with the models given to me.
There's a chance I've skinned the smalite2 opposite to the way the modeller intended. Maybe he intended the blue glowy bits to be protruding from the canister slightly. It sort of looks this way on the sprite, but I ended up putting that down to the sprite trying to look like it's glowing out beyond the ribs of the canister. If this is the way it's supposed to be I then I could texture the curved bits up over the half globe.
But I tried it both ways initially, and the way I ended up texturing it seemed to make more "sense". maybe the model maker can shed more light on it (no pun intended)
...and i cant wait to see them ingame or otherwise without the Milkshape lighting problem. i think theyll look a lot better. and shaders too...those should look great when theyre done! the table top would look really awesome all glowing or perhaps with a a moving static-type effect. good work!
Indeed. :) Maybe the table pulsating slightly? Anyway, the shaders aren't my forte.
P.S. i love the ashtray, i find it so funny they had one in DF..but maybe a little more definition on the cigarettes?
Well, all the skins are created at 200% and scaled back to 100% to match the skinmaps I was given to work from. The Ashtray skinmap was given to me at 256x256 pixels, which means the area in the sand on the ashtray ends up a circle of diameter ~100 pixels. There's not a lot I can do to sharpen that up once it's stretched across the model, but I do have my working versions at 512x512 pixels - so if any of the map objects needed a better defined skin, using the double resolution version should be OK. I guess it's a file size issue. There are a lot higher priority items and textures that deserve the bytes than these little objects.
Looks good so far, what other props have you been given?
Gimme another 3 or 4 days and you'll see. ;)
N1
PS. Im a battle droid now :D
Keep up the good work JP, would be cool if you showed on the team's chat more often.
There are chats? :confused:
With the site being down since the day I joined, someone's gotta let me know (via email) when & where these things are held.
everything is looking real good JP - thanks!
I'll write the shaders but what I'll need is a second imagefile that only has the "glowy" bits against a black background. You might make the light radiate out a bit more on those second images, then the shader will combine the two images at run time.
also, I don't yet know how we'll be managing the broken models yet. We probably won't be able to trigger a second model that's in a destroyed state, but rather just have the model throw gibs and fade out or something ala Half-Life.
Or like the boxes in the first few levels of JO?
Here are the rest of my first assignment textures. There are a few rogue md3's in my pile with no sprite to work from that I'll try and sort out, and I still have to make the associated "glow" textures for D_L's shaders.
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/barrel_exp-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/hanglit-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/lflrlit-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/tallit-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/chair000-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/cards-screenshot.jpg)
http://www.hansen.net.nz/skins/lit4-screenshot.jpg)
Comments: None really, other than "lit4" milkshape lighting makes it appear way too dark (compare it to the actual texture) and "lit4" has a tube within tube arrangement for the flourescent bulb, which doesn't come across well without a semi transparency shader on the outer one.
Feedback appreciated...
once again jp-30, very nice work! they remind me a lot of ole DF. but the one thing i never noticed was the cards....thats really interesting, and i think its funny that even theyre being recreated. :p
These models are going to make the mod really come to life.
Nice work, jp. I wish I had a better eye for critiquing, but as far as I can tell it looks like things are coming along nicely.
...and welcome aboard!
:sbdance
Looks very good, all of it. They really do look the way 3d versions of the originally flat sprites should look. Only two things: the exploding barrel should probably be more rounded, and lit4 doesn't sit that well with me. That last one didn't really seem like it should, more just a black rod with white stripes on it. Could look better with lighting, though the barrel is certainly off.
Thanks for the comments guys. :)
Only two things: the exploding barrel should probably be more rounded, and lit4 doesn't sit that well with me. That last one didn't really seem like it should, more just a black rod with white stripes on it. Could look better with lighting, though the barrel is certainly off.
As I said in my comments, lit4 just doesn't look right in Milkshape. The "shaft" looks black and featureless, though you can see the texture (bottom left of the screenshot) has a gun blue metallic colour, with indented ridge. And the bulb area looks wrong because it needs shaders - a semi transparent "glass" effect for the outer cylinder and a glow for the inner fluro-bulb.
As for the roundness of exploding_barrel, The model itself is out of my control, but remember this thing is going to be tiny in-game and a hexagon is a good enough approximation of a cylinder in this case.
The hi-res models like weapons, enemies & maps need the polys, small objects like lights etc don't. Don't want to kill the framerate or inflate the mod download size unnecessarily.
looking good... although i don't see why the chains weren't just modelled flat and shaders applied... oh well, it wouldn't change fps that much... unless you had lots and lots.
Originally posted by jp-30
Hi Jeff. Uhh. Yeah, here I am... I was getting impatient waiting for the mod, so thought I'd join to try and contribute. :D
Well, I'm just working with the models given to me.
There's a chance I've skinned the smalite2 opposite to the way the modeller intended. Maybe he intended the blue glowy bits to be protruding from the canister slightly. It sort of looks this way on the sprite, but I ended up putting that down to the sprite trying to look like it's glowing out beyond the ribs of the canister. If this is the way it's supposed to be I then I could texture the curved bits up over the half globe.
But I tried it both ways initially, and the way I ended up texturing it seemed to make more "sense". maybe the model maker can shed more light on it (no pun intended)
Indeed. :) Maybe the table pulsating slightly? Anyway, the shaders aren't my forte.
Well, all the skins are created at 200% and scaled back to 100% to match the skinmaps I was given to work from. The Ashtray skinmap was given to me at 256x256 pixels, which means the area in the sand on the ashtray ends up a circle of diameter ~100 pixels. There's not a lot I can do to sharpen that up once it's stretched across the model, but I do have my working versions at 512x512 pixels - so if any of the map objects needed a better defined skin, using the double resolution version should be OK. I guess it's a file size issue. There are a lot higher priority items and textures that deserve the bytes than these little objects.
Hey JP 30, I remember you from TFN, cool that you're working on this MOD, hopefully it will get done sooner now.
LOL. Yeah, I hear the MOD release has come forward 4 hours due to the time I've put into these skins.
;)
Oh, and rerexamining the exploding barrel (after reading the comments by ImmolatedYoda above), the panels to the right and left of the control panel segment look flat to me on the sprite, so I think a hexagon was 100% the correct call as far as the model goes.
haha actually jp-30, it was Geoffrey S. :p ;)
Finally I also have found my way to this thread :)
three words: jp-30, nice work!!!
Although we don't use to count the number of hours we're working for the MOD, its a constant improvement process :p
Perhaps just a note on the polygons...
Look at the chair... imo it has to be circular.
I think we can add some more polys without fear,
e.g. using a dodecaeder (12 sides) instead of a hexagon (6 sides) for the ground surface.
Even the MD3 support LOD, therfore it would be nice to see even small items are detailed.
Anyways, any 3D model is better than the DF sprites :D
Excelent work on those textures JP...
Thanks guys. :D
> Although we don't use to count the number of hours we're working for the MOD, its a constant improvement process
I'm not counting either. That line was a joke. :p
> I think we can add some more polys without fear,
Well, I'm not a modeller (yet... I've done models for JK, but not for JO).
The .md3's were delivered to me with the skinmaps by Darth Linux. I don't even know who made them, to be honest.
But if the team decides any of the map-object models need higher poly versions, it's no problem for me to revise the textures to suit.
I'm still pretty certain the exploding barrel is meant to be round. Having looked at the enlarged sprite you can clearly see that the bottom and top are rounded. Of course, with regards to framerate it might not be such a good idea to up the polycount, but I'm guessing the JO engine can handle a few more polygons as long as there aren't too many barrels in one area.
Originally posted by jp-30:
The model itself is out of my control, but remember this thing is going to be tiny in-game and a hexagon is a good enough approximation of a cylinder in this case.
It's not quite as tiny as you think it is. If you compare it to a stormtrooper, it's about 1/2 to 2/3 the size, so pretty big.
My only complaint is that the textures lack some detail.
By the way, why are you guys using MD3s when Q3Map2 and GtkRadiant support model formats such as OBJ, 3DS, or even straigh Milkshape3D (MS3D) files?
simply because MD3 and GLM are the native formats of Q3A/JO
and the other formats can be converted to MD3.
For the items the file format doesnt really matter, therfore we keep MD3.
I meant for the props. MD3s are a pain in the ass to work with, especially with MilkShape. It's much easier if you can just click Save instead of bothering to make the QC and all that crap to get it into Radiant. Trust me, for map models, you don't want MD3. It sucks.
For items, though, obviously MD3 is pretty much the only choice, or maybe it's GLM, I can't remember. JO doesn't render anything else. :)
thanks for the info... that will help us to keep all the models in the level instead of seeing them dissapear in the net ;-)
> My only complaint is that the textures lack some detail.
Well as this thread is me showcasing my textures, it would be helpful if you perhaps be a little more specific so I can improve the ones you think are lacking.
Beerpipes needs work, I know. Lit4 looks wrong.
And some textures look odd in Milkshape (due to odd shading on the seams (see the Ashtray for example)- though I've just found if I apply a white ambient color to the model, it looks a lot better. Unfortunately I can't get md3view to be stable on my system.
> Instead of sticking perfectly to the sprite you could make the skins like LEC would if they have the technology we have now.
Ahh. I see. Well, I did embellish the cards somewhat, so I'm not adverse to doing that.
I just didn't want to overstep the mark. It's hard to know if the reproductions are supposed to be as close to the original as possible, and I guess different people will have different philosophies on that.
The way I see it is that where possible I should start by skinning the models to look as close to a 3D representation of the sprite as possible.
Once I have the opportunity to view the finished skinned models in-game I'll have a better appreciation of their size, visibility and prominence in their respective levels. And then I (and others involved in the level / MOD) can decide if any of the object skins would benefit from additional enhancements and embellishments.
That's a very nice job you've been doing with my models, it's good to see that the UV layouts haven't thrown you off ;)
After reading through this thread I decided to modify a couple of the models. The exploding barrel is now a bit rounder - the sprite did seem to indicate that there was a defined hexagonal structure, but given the information about its ingame size (having never actually played Dark Forces save for the first 2 levels) I thought it would be a good idea all the same to give it a bit more detail. Hopefully this has been accomplished without ruining the UV so the skin should still apply properly.
Jp-30: lit4 might do better using a tga skin so transparency can be added, if you wants to give that a try then he can go right ahead. You also correctly guessed the layout with smalite2, the fluro structures are intended to be indented. :)
I also had a look at increasing the detail of other things mentioned such as the chair, but I haven't had a chance to look at them ingame so I can't tell you whether the extra detail outweighs any performance hit (keeping in mind that not everyone is running a killer rig). LOD's were an option that hadn't been discussed, though if it ends up being possible to use for these models I'll look into it.
Emon, you wouldn't like to give a little more info about Q3Map2? Such as all the formats it can use, its conversion accuracy, and whether LOD can still be applied (imported?) to these brush constructs? Bear in mind that I don't use Milkshape3D (can't stand the damn thing) to make my models, I export the MD3's from Lightwave in what turns out to be a much more efficient process. There's nothing wrong with that format, unless you make MD3's too small, or use them in animations, but I'm more concerned with avoiding the entity limit and issues such as item replacement/naming conventions. Thanks :)
I'll try and get the rest of the models finished soon.
Woah! The Maker. ;)
That's a very nice job you've been doing with my models, it's good to see that the UV layouts haven't thrown you off
Nah, they're all fine. The only tricky bits are that my art progam of choice, PSP8, doesn't have a decahedron, so those decahedron maps that need a "ring" or colour change take a lot of trial and error tweaking - but that's no fault of you or the UV maps. Oh, the diagonal ring on the hanglit was a bitch. Ended up being a sine-wave shape that maps as desired.
After reading through this thread I decided to modify a couple of the models. The exploding barrel is now a bit rounder - the sprite did seem to indicate that there was a defined hexagonal structure, but given the information about its ingame size (having never actually played Dark Forces save for the first 2 levels) I thought it would be a good idea all the same to give it a bit more detail. Hopefully this has been accomplished without ruining the UV so the skin should still apply properly.
Well, I still think the sprite's supposed to be hexagonal, for what it's worth. And it's no trouble for me to redo any skins if remodelled objects demand it.
Jp-30: lit4 might do better using a tga skin so transparency can be added, if you wants to give that a try then he can go right ahead.
Yeah, I know that. Will try and make the outer cyliner semi-transparent via TGA & alpha channel, though shaders are something I'm leaving up to Darth Linux.
The thing looks like crap in Milkshape. I can't stand Milkshape either, but md3view crashes all 3 of my PCs, and I don't know of any other freeware / shareware programs that will act as a model viewer for me.
Maybe I should use radiant or Blender? Any recommendations there?
You also correctly guessed the layout with smalite2, the fluro structures are intended to be indented
Cool!
I'll try and get the rest of the models finished soon.
No rush. :) I think I have a Gollum to skin soon. ;)
Also, one of the lights - smalit2 I think, you have a big inverted "L" cut out of it. I think you've misread the sprite. I've just made a 2nd skin for smalit1 which I think works much better. I'll post screenies when I get home in a few hours & show you what I mean.
There are also 2 small glitches I noticed.
1. There's a small triangle "hole" in beerpipe, you can just see it as a black blob on the brass "faucet" end of the left pipe on the lower left screenshot, and as a grey triangle on the top-down view (upper right screenshot).
2. One of the 4 lugs in the brass lid of lobvalve1 is missing the top side (you can se this in the 6'o'clock position of the top down view in the screenshot.
Nothing major, and probably nothing you'd notice in-game.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next batch! :)
Hi. Wow! This is realy impressive work. :D
OK, so I had my butt kicked by Dave (in a nice way), and have been back skinning the rest of the long-awaited Talay props over the weekend.
I've done (from memory - these names could be slightly wrong) cup1, cup2, tablelit0, wine, lit3 and sent them to Dave, and I've nearly finished frogbwl2 and frogbowl0 is taking a bit of time to get right.
I'll make some showcase montages of the latest skins as I did earlier in the thread & post them here in the next day or two.
It sure is nice to be out of hybernation. ;)
If there's still a private forum for the team, can someone please PM me with the details? I can't seem to reach the old one that was combined with df2e (is that mod project still active?)
Welcome back, JP, and thanks for your support. PM outgoing :cool:
Holy Bejebus!
Those are GREAT! :thumbsup:
Thanks, man - though the bulk of the credit for how cool the props look should go to the modeller, Kazashi.
I'm not that happy with the frogbowl0 skin in particular, but it should be fine for the demo, and I can revisit it later if necessary.
Wow! That's amazing! Good work.
One thing, though-for the cups, I see in the original sprites more of a clear cup with a blue or green liquid inside. Not that it really matters or that I'm necessarily even right about that.
Yeah, it can be a lot of guesswork to reinterpret a 64pixel x 64 pixel sprite.
How do you interpret the band of blue or green above the black band, if you see the cups as clear, and holding blue/green liquid?
I see what you mean. That band of color--perhaps it's the way that the light's shining through the glass and liquid--possible, but quite a stretch. What you did with it is great, and whether or not it exactly mimics the original, it certainly fulfills its purpose. Objects for the mod don't have to adhere exactly to the original designs anyway--how else would you add detail.
Amazing. Now I've made two posts discussing a 3-d model of a cup.:)
The texture on the mines doesn't look like it quite fits in. It has a cell-shaded appearance due to the dark lines that make up it's edges.
And while I know this isn't strictly a texture problem, but would it be possible to make the statues look a bit more like the Emperor,...?
I figured in-game the thing would be pretty small, and the edging wouldn't make much difference either way. But, yeah, I can pull the dark edges easily enough on the mines. It looked a bit bland without them. I might try stitching instead and see how that looks.
Are those statues supposed to be The Emperor? I thought they were just some generic dark jedi, but I can easily try a more Emperor-like face texture on it. (edit: duh, I see the file name "Emscu" would stand for Emperor Sculpture)
How tall are they? 6-12 feet? I'd thought they were just some small statuette / idol sized things maybe a foot tall.
Jeez I really need to play through the original DF again!
Oh, and I'm having a play with the skin for this right now.
http://img64.photobucket.com/albums/v194/jaepee/darkforces/det_code.gif)
What the hell is it, and how is it used? I just wanna know if there's scope for doing something a bit fancy with it.