This is basically why I'm neverous about switching over to GTK Radiant in mid project. I might consider it when starting a new project, but maps are delicate things and the thought of losing anything at all in the cross over wouldn't be a happy one. I'm not suggesting GTK Radiant isn't a great program and technically superior in several areas. By odd coincidence I nearly lost an entire level's entities a few days ago, and man its a horrible feeling to lose a load of stuff eh? It's like you can see the time you spent on it just vanishing into the void forever. Only worse. Like you said "It seems there can be no progress without setbacks.". Seems like if you get a good run then you'll just get a bigger problem when it arrives...

Well, looking forward to this level more and more :)

The loss of every trigger_once in a level sounds horrible. One problem is that it starts out in MP mapping mode, which can screw up SP-only entities, like waypoints, point_combats, and trigger_onces.

Originally posted by master_thomas
The loss of every trigger_once in a level sounds horrible. One problem is that it starts out in MP mapping mode, which can screw up SP-only entities, like waypoints, point_combats, and trigger_onces.

Waypoints? Not also them? Tell me that isn't true! I didn't even check them, because they have been switched off for so long in View menu.

Crom! I copied all trigger_onces back. It wasn't as bad as I had feared, because of this nice option to turn world off. It was quite easy to pick trigger_onces, because of the really nice selection of colors in JK2Radiant 2D window (by far superior to GTK) (trigger_once and _multiple have distinct colors). Well, if I must also copy all waypoints, then I guess that's what I'm going to do.

Otherwise I have been making relatively good progress. I had to learn some new things for the last puzzle, but it should be okay (haven't compiled). In addition I have done already most of the architectural mapping, only little things left.

EDIT: It will be really horrible and nasty and long puzzle, I promise you.

Sometimes, in GTK, the triggers and somethings will disappear for seemingly no reason, but they are there...but you can only see them in 2D. Not sure why, but...that's how it is.

As the last chamber is basically one big machine system (although it might not look like it, as I had to cut down the amount of machines for the sake of FPS and my sanity), I though to do it a little more lively by adding a computer voice. Also, it's quite essential considering the fact that the last puzzle will be, well, as I said, long and horrible.

There was in the mapping/levels forum a thread about synthesized voices and a link to an amazing AT&T site. Of course I immediately generated a whole bunch of lines for the computer (really, really essential, and I mean it, the puzzle would be too hard without them).

Bad news is that when I contacted AT&T about the use of sounds produced with this web interface demo (it took them the whole weekend and a little more to respond), they bluntly turned me down. They forbade all use of the sounds except for private home use (not much use for this kind of project). So, I need an alternative source for machine speech.

Using Goldwave you can make some Computer sounding voices pretty easily, it even has some kind of built in options allowing for this effect, you can take a human voice and make it completely unrecognisable. I could even use my own voice and have a go for you if you wish, thats how much the original voice can be changed :)

There's also the text-to-speech thingy in Windows XP (Control Panel > Speech), but it's only a male voice, it kinda sucks, and I don't know how best to save it as a wav or mp3.

Yeah, Microsoft Sam is not my first choice for a computer voice. And besides, the computer voice must be female. Come on! What kind of computer would have a male voice anyway (especially in a game that is played mostly by men). Go and visit this AT&T site.

http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts/demo.html)

Let the voice be Crystal, and type in some sensible sentence like (hint, hint) "Fifteen minutes remaining until self-destruction commences." It sounds amazing! I have never heard such a good text-to-speech synthesis. No wonder they don't want people to use it free of charge.

Does anybody know, if you can, in fact, have different voices for this Windows XP speech synthesis? I once tried to search the Microsoft site, but, um, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Originally posted by lassev
And besides, the computer voice must be female. Come on! What kind of computer would have a male voice anyway (especially in a game that is played mostly by men). Go and visit this AT&T site.


Curse my manly voice, curse it!

Hmmm, what about HAL from 2001 and his cool Canadien voice? Its amazingly tricky to find good female voice actors. If only Eldritch was a woman. :eek:

Originally posted by Kengo
Hmmm, what about HAL from 2001 and his cool Canadien voice? Its amazingly tricky to find good female voice actors. If only Eldritch was a woman. :eek:

Yes, HAL, that's true. But we must also remember that HAL was a very intelligent central character in the movie, so he had to be male. Eh, well, let's say my computer should sound sympathetic, and inspiring, when it tells you are going to be killed in a big explosion in a very short time. Aye, it's a good computer, because actually it gives the player good advice to solve the puzzle. An evil computer would go along nicely with male voice, but not this kind of neutral one.

I certainly didn't foresee this problem. Actually, I only came up with the idea after visiting the AT&T pages. Yet now I have built the last puzzle to require a computer voice (even some scripts are ready).

Are you sure Eldritch is not female? Perhaps he... Er... She is? Wow, I never thought of that.

Originally posted by lassev
Are you sure Eldritch is not female? Perhaps he... Er... She is? Wow, I never thought of that.
Quite sure. :indif:

However, I do have some interesting .wav editing software on my computer. Catch me sometime on MSN, maybe I can work something out.

Now that everybody's attention is (deservedly) on Clu's Colosseum, I can sneak in and give my petty progress report.

Nothing amazing to report really. The files for voice acting (this includes also the computer voice) should be coming my way any day, so it's almost wrapped up. I constructed last of the big machines in the chamber, and actually the chamber is architecturally 100% complete now. I'll just add one corridor out of it (cloning mostly, one hour of work), and the whole, bloody level is ready architecturally.

This means, finally, that there's nothing more than scripting and some cameras and waypoints to add. And as I'm no stranger to ICARUS, I don't except it to take forever (it might, though. ICARUS certainly has the ability to surprise). I'll post back, when the scripting is finished.

Great news!!! So would you say in about a month the entire level will be in completion stages?

Originally posted by lassev
Now that everybody's attention is (deservedly) on Clu's Colosseum

You're a classy customer, Lassev. Thanks for the props. :cheers:

Personally, I can't wait to play Project Lighthouse. Psyched to hear you're approaching the finish line.

-clu

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lassev
Are you sure Eldritch is not female? Perhaps he... Er... She is? Wow, I never thought of that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:eyeraise: *shivers*



Glad to hear you're almost done with this. It looks quite good.

Originally posted by lassev
Nothing amazing to report really. The files for voice acting (this includes also the computer voice) should be coming my way any day, so it's almost wrapped up.

You should check your email for the computer voice. It's just sitting there, waiting...

:D

Originally posted by Lord Glorfindel
Great news!!! So would you say in about a month the entire level will be in completion stages?

I hope it's well finished in a month, with beta testing and all. However, the process will probably be disrupted by my summer vacation after a couple of weeks. I'm going to be out of town for more than two weeks, in places where there's no computers at my disposal (well, almost none). I can read these forums with an old computer and a modem connection, but that's all.

I really hope I'll be able to send the beta to the testers before the vacation. We'll see.

My last compile before last evening was a month old... You can imagine the amount of changes I had made since that. Although one should never say this about his own map, and I'm cursed to say this aloud, still I'm quite satisfied with the last chamber architecture (sorry, absolutely no screenshots will be coming this way).

and has been working on a set piece section at the end which promises to be extraordinary.

This is what Kengo said in his Mapping Monthly, and I just think the chamber might live up to expectations. It's a big hall, not boxy but vast otherwise, yet whatever direction you look at, there's grand machines everywhere, many of them moving at some point or having action otherwise with shaders and/or effects. The FPS is currently hovering at about 40-50 with my 1000MHz Athlon and GeForce4200 with no NPCs (there won't generally be any, anyway).

The long and tortuous last puzzle almost worked (well, it's comlicated to script), and has some great moments.

Enough of self-satisfied mumble. I leave you all waiting for undetermined time to forget this level, until I bring it up once again (the thread, anyway ;) )

Hey sounds cool. So I'm actually still relatively ignorant of the level (didn't read every single post), so this is just to satisfy my own curiosity:

1) When you say not many NPCs, does that mean that it is primarily the puzzles and minimal combat?

2) If there is a bit of combat, what would you say the majority of it would be (saber battles, duck-and-cover shootouts, stealth, etc.)?

3) Is Jan always at your side? Talking? Shooting? Or is it more of a a solo-type adventure?

Anyway, if you prefer not to reveal too much, that's OK too. Just curious.

-clu

Originally posted by clu
1) When you say not many NPCs, does that mean that it is primarily the puzzles and minimal combat?
Um, I was just talking about the last chamber. There's not really any NPCs to reckon with (expect shortly in a cinematic). Otherwise the level contains enough NPCs to keep you occupied.

2) If there is a bit of combat, what would you say the majority of it would be (saber battles, duck-and-cover shootouts, stealth, etc.)?
There's plenty of weapons at hand, so it's how you prefer, really. Most certainly one could play almost (but not entirely) the whole level using only the saber. Most certainly one would die very fast by not using the saber...

3) Is Jan always at your side? Talking? Shooting? Or is it more of a a solo-type adventure?
Jan will only appear in cinematics. The level design is such that a friendly NPC couldn't survive or follow the player to any great extent. It's a real jedi mission...

Originally posted by lassev
Um, I was just talking about the last chamber. There's not really any NPCs to reckon with (expect shortly in a cinematic). Otherwise the level contains enough NPCs to keep you occupied.

There's plenty of weapons at hand, so it's how you prefer, really. Most certainly one could play almost (but not entirely) the whole level using only the saber. Most certainly one would die very fast by not using the saber...


Even with my elite Jedi skills ;) , I found it fairly challenging. Lassev really knows how to suddenly pile well placed enemies on you at just the right times!

Just a short update. I have now all the voice files, including the clips for the "sole voice actor" (which isn't actually true anymore). While waiting for the voice files for the baddie, I directed some cinematics to the very, very end of the level, the level ending, that is. They are pretty much done now. The cinematic missign still is a rather lenghty one right before the nasty puzzle I have been talking about. The puzzle itself, with the short cinematics included, is working perfectly and mercilessly. It was probably the most sophisticated thing I have done this far with Radiant and ICARUS.

If the last unmade cinematic builds fine and don't resist too much, I will make a beta available for the selected beta testers the coming week :)

Status report:
Architectural mapping: 100%
Voice acting: 100%
Cinematics: 85%
Ambient sound: 95%

Ooh, the excitement! :rubs hands together in anticipation: :D

The anticipation is killing me too. :D

Sounds like you've reached black-belt status with ICARUS after that last puzzle. Can't wait to play!

-clu

Originally posted by clu
The anticipation is killing me too. :D

Sounds like you've reached black-belt status with ICARUS after that last puzzle. Can't wait to play!

-clu

Well, you know, Clu, I was quite impressed with your scripts, when I studied them. You are certainly not any green belt level scripter yourself! Actually, by playing the game itself, you don't notice the effects of the scripts in such a straight forward way, as you know very well yourself, of course.

Still, I do have a few elegant scripts, in my own opinion. I did not think to include the .txts in the .pk3, but if you want to have a look at them, I can certainly reconsider (concerning the beta. The final level won't have 'em. They don't contain anything new compared to the original game, and without the .map they wouldn't help anyone so much anyway). If nothing else, you can always wonder about some Finnish script names and entity names :)

Well, so much for good news. Now I encountered one, whose relatives have undoubtly collapsed otherwise perfect projects. And I think it might be called either my own ignorance or, by another name, entity limit. At least, that's the only solution I can come up with, even if the symptoms are not exactly what I would have expected. That is, the symptoms look like this:

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~lvaarisk/errorscr.jpg)

Now, I have something like 1090 entities, in total. If the brush entity limit for SP is 512 (who knows the total entity limit (2048 or what), there's a chance my error arises from that source. Although, I cannot be certain.

This error comes up every now and then, most often, when I try to use some force power. As you can see, it's sound related, and I have never seen it before, only very lately with a couple of my latest compiles.

So, I'm sorry to say this, but if this error doesn't leave me alone, that is, if nobody can explain it, Project Lighthouse is sure to be delayed, if not BURIED entirely. Right now, it's totally unplayable, and I cannot finish it, because I can't test it.

I don't think you hit the entity limit, one of my maps has 2175. Guessing from the error, it looks like a string problem, I remember getting an error because I made a name too long in Radiant. Maybe you have too many sound sources running at the same time. I don't know man.

Thanks to good, old Leslie I found a reason for the error. Not a good solution, but at least a reason (if you want to know it, visit the thread on mapping / levels). So, basically my solution would be to cut down number of things in my map, including sound files, models, effects and such. Well, I'm quite taken aback because of that, because I never certainly and absolutely thought my map to have anything so much that it would overflow this kind of limits.

To my most trustworthy would-be beta testers I must now bring the bad news: I'm really surprised if I can finish this level to beta testing stage before my vacation, which is now quite near. I might have without this problem. With this? No way.

I'm, partly because of what I told above, deeply opposed to cutting down anything in Lighthouse_2, to prevent it from becoming some lousy, colorless map. This means, and I see few alternatives, that the will be Lighthouse_3. In effect, I have to split Lighthouse_2. I already know how to do it, and even if it means HUGE work and will result in some redundancy (Lighthouse_2 and Lighthouse_3 will share some common parts), it's the only way to go.

:( Sorry, but I cannot anymore promise Project Lighthouse beta anytime soon.

I'll keep my eyes open for a solution.

BTW, if I may be so bold... don't ever say the word buried when talking about this excellent project! (it scares me). Seriously, Lassev, I'm sure there have been greater bugs squashed in the world of mapping.

Post the same screenie over at Massasi and all the other Radiant-type forums (and on that RichDiesel thread...everyone seems to be subscribed to that one). Maybe someone's encountered it before.

-clu

<EDIT>
The only reference I could find to that error stated that the G_FindConfigstringIndex function is used by the G_ModelIndex and G_SoundIndex functions. That "G_SoundIndex function" sounds like a promising lead since it seems to have something to do with that saber sound. Anyway, maybe make a post over at the Quake3World forums. That's where I found this thread (http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005563.html)
</EDIT>

If you could get a hold of Ant, he'd be your best bet I guess. Still, he reduced things out of neccesity, an absolute last ditch option, I agree with you, cutting the level up intop two parts is far, far better. Have you decided where to cut it? If not, shall I play the old beta and look for bits that might work easiest (I imagine a fair bit has changed from that version but still...)?

Update with the too many things to load problem.

Lighthouse_2 has now been split. It resulted in some redundance, with the hangar being included in both Lighthouse_2 and Lighthouse_3. However, this concerns only the skeleton of the hangar. A huge amount of entities were removed in Lighthouse_3 hangar, because those entities were only relevant to Lighthouse_2.

I haven't compiled Lighthouse_2, but it should basically be OK. Lighthouse_3 didn't even host any leaks, of which I'm quite surprised. The splitting wasn't as bad as I had thought: by drawing huge boxes that spread over large parts of the map, then selecting select inside from the menus, and hitting backspace I removed large portions with little trouble.

The good news is that the beginning of the last cinematic (which I had scripted before this annoying problem) worked with no big problems. Some smoothening here and there and about half of the last cinematic is done. I would be reckless to say I can finish the beta in the few evenings I have left, but who knows? Maybe I will be able to give you a barely working beta :)

Glad to hear you got through this problem man, it sure is annoying to hit a problem you never anticipated at all eh! How long is your vacation again? :)

Glad to hear you got through this problem man, it sure is annoying to hit a problem you never anticipated at all eh! How long is your vacation again?

It sure is annoying. The whole mapping / scripting business seems to follow the path: for every two meters forward, you slip one meter back. Well, I'm fairly confident that by merging some sound files into one bigger file (I have this possibility with a bunch of files) I should be able to stay away from the loading limit, whatever it might be.

My vacation will stretch about two weeks, maybe a little more. It was my plan to let you have that time to play around with the beta, and then after my holiday I would make the few changes I suppose there has to be - and let Eldritch have the map at PCGameMods. And let Leslie have the map for Review.

We will see how it turns out.

Originally posted by lassev
It was my plan to let you have that time to play around with the beta, and then after my holiday I would make the few changes I suppose there has to be - and let Eldritch have the map at PCGameMods. And let Leslie have the map for Review.
*cackles devilishly* Muahahhaaha, we don't think we'll be letting that one out for public release, do we precious? We'll keep it to ourselves, yes...

*cough*

I mean, i'll post it right away. :D

Seriously though, I hope it gets resolved before your vacation. If not, have fun and finish it off when you get back. :)

Have a good vacation, it sounds like it's well deserved.

-clu

Well. The next couple of weeks are going to be quite quiet. I'll make Lighthouse available for download to some trustworthy beta testers. Despite my best efforts in a limited time, the beta is not quite as finished as I would have liked it to be. Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing interesting things from the testers, once they get into business.

Then, after a few weeks, this level will be published. So, basically, this level is finished except for some small and minor things. It has been a long road, but hopefully worth it.

...and there was much rejoicing

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Just finished the download. :)

I guess I can take a break from playing Knights of the Old Republic long enough to try this out. :D

So far I have been informed there are a lot of errors to be found in the beta. So, keep your heads cool. I can't say I wouldn't have expected some errors to be found, but now it seems there are some totally new errors also.

Lassev, I appologise for the delays on my part, I am desperately trying to finish and release Occupation 2 before I go mad, I assure you as soon as that is done my full attention will move to the beta and I wil get a report to you before you return man, sorry :o

No need for apologies, Kengo. Rather, I should express my apologies, because the beta seems to be in far worse condition than I even feared. It may well be, that it is quite unplayable at certain points. If you encounter so bad difficulties as Clu did with the beta, I can only suggest that you will completely abandon testing it, until I can (after my holiday) get some better version for you all beta testers to download.

It shouldn't take long for me to build a better beta, when I get home (getting home will take some time, though).

Lassev, I actually only had that one error, so not a big deal in my eyes.

I have only gone through the first level, but just for the record, this is one of the best and most well designed SP levels I have personally played. Very immersive, fun and well thought-out. I'll post more once I have gone through the whole thing.

Well done!

-clu

I felt the first beta was by a mile one of the best, most innovative, varied and high quality maps I'd played, I am sure the second beta will be an improvement on that, so I wouldn't be too hard on yourself Lassev man! :) Occupation 2 should be done today or tommorow, and after that I will get to work on the beta report, you worked extremely hard to get it to us before you went on holiday, I feel indebted to test it before you get back because of this.

Now I'm more or less back at business. I have received Kengo's excellent beta report, and I'm going to implement the changes he suggested. They concerned mainly lighting (it seems my brightness and gamma settings are different from those of everybody else). Well, I guess I must (again) boost the lighting up. There was also an issue of models not showing in the game. They were just ordinary models of the original game, so it's a bit puzzling, although it was a problem I can say I was afraid of hearing about, because I had seen it with my own eyes on the computer of one friend of mine.

Well, those were the main issues. After reading Kengo's beta report I must comment here (or remind) that this level will contain some puzzles that are perhaps even harder than the ones the original game included. That is the nature of this level. There is some combat to be found, quite enough actually, but just swinging your saber won't get you very far in Lighthouse. However, there will be a walk-through included in the final release (most probably written by the famous author Kengo).

I still don't know what's Clu's JO, because he gets the error previously reperted that Kengo didn't report on the other hand. Eldritch has not sent me a report either - he must be awfully busy moving around, but I'm positive I'll get it one day.

Hey Lassev, just sent you an email. I'll have my report to you by tomorrow evening.

-clu

Don't hold your breath waiting for my response, lassev.

I haven't had a computer that'll run JO since I started moving a few weeks ago... and I won't have one that can for another 2 weeks or so. :(

I did have a chance to play a couple of minutes of it, but I don't think it'd add much. Still, i'm sure it's great.

Ah, Eldritch, that's terrible news! I was truly looking forward to get a report from such an august person as you are. I'm not saying two weeks in the future would be too late, but... um... I was kind of hoping to release Lighthouse by that time. Well, we'll see what happens.

Still, the whole thing with missing .md3s is solved. It's a strange problem, though. Strange and strangely logical. To be exact, the whole story is here:

When you install JK2Editing tools 2 you will get in your models/map_objects folder a bunch (big one, too) of models used in the original game. They aren't there, if you don't install the editing tools. To be precise, the textures of the models are there, but the models themselves aren't. Why this happens is easy to explain. Raven had all these "missing" models as misc_models. They are turned into map triangles in the compile. After that you only need the texture, not the model itself. So, to save some space, Raven dropped those models out.

I, on the other hand, had used them as misc_model_breakables that are not turned into triangles. So, they were missing on computers not having editing tools 2 (don't ask me why Kengo, the great mapper, didn't have Editing tools installed, but I'm anyway happy he didn't, otherwise I would never have learned of this problem). So, I solved the issue same way as Raven did: by having all those models as misc_models.

Could you generate the same effect as a misc_model_breakable by making an invisible func_breakable and targeting a misc_model to it? Since you can target misc_models at func_rotatings, _trains, _doors, _plats, etc, to make the model "part" of the entity...

Originally posted by lassev
(don't ask me why Kengo, the great mapper, didn't have Editing tools installed, but I'm anyway happy he didn't, otherwise I would never have learned of this problem)

Because I'm a moron :) Sorry about that...Still, thanks all the same man, you're too kind :D Do you want me to begin with the walkthrough, cause you know flattery will REALLY get me moving!

Got through the campaign without hitting that error. :D Beta report currently in progress...please standby.

-clu

(awesome levels Mr. Lassev. Very slick and very, very fun!)