1. b (No)
2. b (No)
3. e (dunno)

1. Maybe you should not release any betas, at least of the first map, anymore. Betas can be funny, and the feedback informative to you, but I would rather play the finished product, to speak the truth.

2. Why don't they plan the route before lift off? That would seem a proper thing to do. If you are encountering difficulties with func_statics, you might consider replacing DOWAITs with DOs and careful timing with wait(milliseconds). And remember you can put both moves and rotates in the same task, to be executed at the same time. I must confess I'm not entirely done or satisfied with my own ship movements, but I'm going to have a look at them at some point.

Okay. Lassev. Thanks for the input. Poll count so far:

Poll1

a.0

b.1

c.0.

Poll2

a.0

b.1

Poll3

a.0

b.0

c.0

d.0

e.1

Originally posted by lassev
Well, I would say that only explains why my maps are still not finished. To learn everything by yourself certainly makes sure you actually learn something and not only copy, but on the other hand, and I'm quite sure you, Kengo, will agree with me that it takes too much time, too good nerves and a sturdy screen to survive all fist hits of frustration without splintering...

Your service to the community, Kengo, is great and you can be sure I'll mention your tutorials in the future as often as I've done so far. Even if I haven't read them, I know by other people's posts that they are great and helpful. (But I have visited your site, if that counts!).


Couldn't agree more Lassev, having to try everything over and over until it eventually starts working is very frustrating, especially when you don't know what you're doing wrong! You are too kind :)

The cutscene work sounds very impressive, but from the screenshots (I admit I'm basing this on only seeing certain bits, and I'm sure you've added more since) I think the architecture maybe needs some work. It's getting good, but I think if you went through it all and just added a load more details it would make a big difference.

The beta question is interesting...I have been very annoyed at not releasing a beta and having mistakes I should have noticed in my maps before. On the other hand, you gotta release it at some stage, and too many betas is probabaly not a good idea. I would suggest no more than one more beta. Also, if you haven't added a great deal to the map since the last beta, I don't see a reason for there to be another - yet at least. So it's a matter of asking yourself:

Do I think the map is good enough to release as it is?

> If so I would say decide whether you need another beta or not based upon the amount of changes made from the last beta

> If not then I would recommend working on the map some more until you feel it is good enough to release, then again decide whether you think you need another beta.

Whatever you do though, make sure you release it, it's your first SP map and will have faults, which is only to be expected, but the feedback you get after you release a map is extremely worthwhile, so don't put releasing it off indefinately :)

I'm just gonna lie down again.....

Well, I have added a lot. My brush count has gone into 1100's, I've added two cutscenes, added the towers and sniping post, a new room, forcefield emmiters; many things. One more beta because I'm unsure of some of it. I plan this to be a big series and want it to start out right.

Also, I want to start another map (yes three projects at once). SW museum! Artifacts from ep. 1, pre 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, post 6, and the Clone Wars. None of these will be models (I can't model). Really just practice, but seems like a good idea.

One more beta. If I don't get any more feedback or only positive feedback, out it goes to jk2files, jediknightii.net, and massassi. I might as well, because I still need to improve my e-mail (only 2mb attachments or less).

I want to make this good. Mainly because it's short. As I said before, I'm trying to keep it accurate to yavin_temple, which is pretty small. I don't want people to feel that the final cutscene is a gimick to keep it from mediocrity.

Warning: The rest of this is off topic.

I'm thinking of adding a new page to my site. Cosmology (study of the universe in it's past, future, and evolution). Yes, I'm one of the few thirteen year-olds interested in that, but, hey, gotta pick a career.

New forum. Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. :D


We all perform opublic service within JK2. We prvide hundreds and more with entertainment for free, though, we enjoy it.

This picture is compressed and was taken n nolight compile. Here it is.
http://massassi.net/ec/images/10584.jpg)

A hailfire missile droid (missile launching(duh) Separatist vehicle from the Clone Wars. One of these fired one of the first shots of the war. They were very effective against fighter tanks and AT-XT's (original AT-ST; Republic), which were the main part of the Republic mobile army.

This will also be in the SW museum.

Took me one hour. It has almost complete accuracy to the movie (except texture).

I'm going to enter these into the storyline. Sidious kept many vehicles of the Clone Wars for his emergency division of ground troops, but when the first Death Star was destroyed, their location was lost, but they've been found. The imperials get some new (old) toys :evil1:.

GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

DOOR PROBLEMS!!! The beginning door and a new door won't open anymore! :(

WHY NOW??? I HAVEN'T TOUCHED THEM!

<pounds table repeatedly and eventually calms down>

When they are fixed, Beta2 will be released. After three days, the final will be released unless more feedback is given. Once I can send 16Mb attachments, it will be on JK2.net and massassi.

Beta Build 2 is out:). I added lassev and boinga1 to the credits and removed Roger Koche(his little brother got mad at himbecause he took all the PS2 games to a friends house and broke the disc and now he can't play:(. Too bad). Check it out at http://www.thomasjk2.moonfruit.com)

Okay, I sent it to massassi, using my sister's e-mail (I still haven't got my e-mail updated). I feel so guilty:(. Who knows when it will come out?

Still not out at massassi (although, I'm not at all surprised)

I just got the computer from my sister. I just checked and Massassi still hasn't been updated. Should I try JK2files? Anyway, has anyone here downloaded it from my site (http://www.thomasjk2.moonfruit.com)?)

Work has resumed on part2. While there, I just had to do this with some new droids, which I just placed. :evil2:http://massassi.net/ec/images/10651.jpg)
(the r2d2 should be imperial, but I killed it while pushing it into place (don't ask) so I NPC spawned a normal one)5...4...3...2...1...0
http://massassi.net/ec/images/10652.jpg)
Mwahahahahahahahahaha <takes deep breath> hahahahahahahaha!!!<gasps for air>

How do you get them to move around?

If the pictures don't appear for you, it's three gonks and an r2d2 standing over 1 detpack per droid. The second shows the sxplosions and the droids are nowhere to be seen.

I see I am the only one posting here right now. Maybe an update will cause more interest. I made the pipes more logical. They now lead up to the upper rooms and spread in all directions (except towards the window).

How do you get them to move around?

Well, it should work just by constructing a network of waypoints and after that setting the droids in their spawnscript to a suitable behavior_state (it was bs_wander, or something like that, if I remember correctly). Bah, I don't even remember if I have tried that out. There's definitively something wrong with my brains...

Waypoints? Navgoals or normal. What about point_combats?

Just normal waypoints. Point_combats might be useless as they are only used in battles and the droids are not known for their high prowess in battle. I guess they don't even have any combat AI. Waypoint_navgoals are just for scripting, as far as I know. The behavior_state should do the trick, if it going to do work. Well, of course you could also give them navgoals, they would certainly move that way also. But it would be a harder work if your aim is just pretty aimless movement.

<groan>

Lassev, I tried to fixyour fps problems with hint brushes, which I still don't understand. Now, after adding three, which I then added I get
"Error: Sv_SetBrushModel: NULL"

I ran a brush cleanup, checked my func's. It's now exactly the same as it was before it started occuring. Why must my ****ing computer/programs do this to me? I never did anything bad to them. <kicks the CPU:p> I'll post this in AKPiggot's thread.

Hint brushes are rather tricky, I admit. The theory is sound, especially if you should listen to it at some class room, and you could just forget it afterwards. In practice is can work as good as it is supposed, if used in basic situations. However, when architecture is not as basic as it can get, you'll just have to try it out. Sometimes it does miracles, sometimes nothing changes.

Areaportals, on the other hand, are very easy to use. If you make elevators with func_static, you can also use areaportals with that, but your script must include the command adjust areaportals, otherwise you'll get the good old hall'o'mirrors (HOM) effect.

What comes to your NULL brushes, there I cannot help you. I got them with funcs containing nothing but origin, but never else.

How bad was your fps problem? Mine kept decent (if course my systems in the middle upper end and yours will probably be lower). Area portal with func_door, work, but how again do I place areaportal brushes? I'll check Rich's tutorial on func_doors for that as soon as I get this stupid error gone. I'll do a region compile without entities and see if it works.

It worked, so now I'm removing the func_entities one by one. I have to leave in one minute and probably won't post in 13 hours from now.

Well, I think I've narrowed the culprit down to the func_statics (I'm not too surprised). I've saved under a new map file and deleted the doors, and the breakables, leaving thr statics. I'm about to check the junk.txt file.

Why didn't I look at the junk file before?:o

Ahem. I think I found the problem (I know what this means, don't diagnose)--- MakeTreePortals ---
--- MakeTreePortals ---
WARNING: node without a volume
node has 0 tiny portals
node reference point 0.00 0.00 0.00
WARNING: node without a volume
node has 0 tiny portals
node reference point 0.00 0.00 0.00
WARNING: node without a volume
node has 0 tiny portals
node reference point 0.00 0.00 0.00
WARNING: node without a volume
node has 0 tiny portals
node reference point 0.00 0.00 0.00
WARNING: node without a volume
node has 0 tiny portals
node reference point 0.00 0.00 0.00
229 tiny portals
0 bad portals

Speaks for itelf. I have nodes that are too small. All at 0.00 0.00 0.00? Now That's odd. I'm worried. Oh well, I'll look for those extremely small nodes. I had this error earlier. Always comes in groups of tiny portals :rolleyes:.

Were 0.00 0.00 0.00 the coordinates? Nothing there. Dang it!

I've checked the rest of the junk.txt file. More warnings
WARNING: misc_model at -6328 3008 1152 without a model key That sort of sounds like the locations of the func_statics, which are all models.WARNING: Degenerate T-junction edge found, fixing... 1471 verts added for tjunctions 1471? That seems rather high.

I think the misc_model sounds right. What's a T-junction?

Okay I've deleted every misc_model and func_static. I'm almost certain it's either the T-juntion or the node with no volume problem. The only challenge with the node with no volume problem (wow, matches line to line for six words. Freaky lol) is that the coordinates are either incorrect, the numbers there are not coordinates, but are the size, or the whole dang system is screwed up.

I'm now a Wampa. Isn't that the snow beast that almost kills Luke at Hoth?

Kengo, you were right! The showcase thread is a goldmine of posts :D.

I deleted all func_breakables. Getting closer.

So far, there are no misc_models, func_statics, and func_doors. I am certain it's an entity because when I deleted all entities, the error disappeared, but my skyboxes all became skyboxes with notex on the extremely far walls.

Woohoo! I fixed the error! It was one of the func_doors (either the hangar door or the one leading out of Luke's room.

Anything left of your map after all that deleting? Well, it's a good thing you did find the culprit. All the time spent looking for some stupid error is always time away from actual mapping. That's a pity.

You should probably use areaportaling, even if your FPS keeps tolerable, just because it's a good practice. And also it makes battles more fluent, especially if you have lot of enemies.

The most important thing to remember with areaportals is to make sure there's no other way around the areaportaled door, like windows or open corridors, or just plain detail brushes. I haven't myself followed that 1 unit thick rule. I have just made sure the portal is no thicker than the door, and is somewhat thin. They have worked so far, although I do have some portals, that do not work, but I can guess why. Correcting them would mean too much work with the surrounding architecture.

When I do find the exact door, I will continue trying to increase fps. The low fps would be because everything is one node, meaning everything is drawn at once. If an entire area is blocked off by structural brushes (and an areaportal or hint), the node is divided in two. Since a room surrounded by walls of structural brushes only with no gaps, which would break up the nodes, can only be penatrated by the teleporter. That is why we have those two shaders.

If I separate the nodes between Luke's room and the hangar, I can't see the hangar with r_showtris 1 from Luke's Room, correct?

Here's a new question, Why areaportal and not hint? What's the difference?

I found the door that has caused me these problems! It was the hangar door and I wouldn't be surprised if it was too thin.

If I separate the nodes between Luke's room and the hangar, I can't see the hangar with r_showtris 1 from Luke's Room, correct?
True.

Why areaportal and not hint? What's the difference?
Use areaportals only with doors or other entities like func_statics (this with a script command, as I said earlier). They are used for that, to split nodes with funcs. Don't use areaportals just by themselves in the middle of corridors, or you'll get the areaportal does not touch two areas error message.

Use hint brushes all by themselves in corridor cornes. They don't need any funcs or anything to be inside of. Raven used in Kejнm_post hint brushes in the middle of straight corridors like some invisible walls. They probably don't have any effect when used like that. So don't use Kejim_post as an example.

Sorry I didn't post about it yet, I had to leave for school 10 minutes after my last post. The areaportals are working! Lassev, I don't get it. If the hint brushes in those corridors had no purpose, why use them?

Here's a question for my fellow SP mappers. Why haven't I seen any movies used in player-made maps? (except, of course, the DF mod demo. They had to use them for game accuracy)

New questions. This is, as you can see, an extremely long post.

Why not just always use hints? They could have ommited an entire shader.

If the areaportal/hint brush divides the nodes, meaning things in other nodes aren't drawn, how does the door work? As a guess, this is what the vis process handles, right?

Why must my (and many other people's) maps start having all these errors at the end, when it is almost ridiculous to start over again? I understand AKPiggot's g_stringconfig error (frustrating error caused by too many sound lines and entities), but why does the culprit, which has been the same for three weeks wait to start a problem when I'm doing he final fps optimization?

How do I get an fps display in SP? What is the console command?
I really can't tell if it's improving.

What are the exact placement specifications for area portals? (I know it can't be deeper than the door, but what about height and width? It would make sense if it touches the walls of the doorway, but isn't visible in radiant when the door is in the closed position.

Is Massassi ever going to post the new levels? (it's down now) It's been awhile

Why do companies bother with pop-ups if everyone hates them? I had a 4000 character post, explaining my future plans and some assets I'll need, but a pop-up caused my browser to crash before I could submit it.

Now, to post that 4000 character post (brace yourself lol).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will use these dashes to separate major parts. Double layered lines will be major breaks (I must organize this, since it's about four-thousand characters).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Story Plans

WARNING: Spoilers, though they may change over time.

Okay, I'm planning for a non-linear layout. Kyle does not find Jan at Bespin. The cry for help in #2 will be followed by a reborn cackle. After defeating a powerful dark jedi, Kyle returns to Yavin, where the imperials have been completely removed.

Kyle feels very angry and frustrated and Luke suggests him to rest, starting level 3. In a dream world (new music and textures needed), you fight reborn and you see non-solid Jan models throughout (is search for Jan is constantly failing and whenever he gets close, hhe can't get her). You see a dark Kyle, who you must fight. If you win, you wake up and find Jan eventually after defeating the dark Jedi's master.

If you lose, a cutscene will play and Kyle wakes up (scripted set playerteam enemy). You help the imperials conquer the Jedi Academy. Luke and Jan are nowhere in sight. Eventually, Jan and Luke are captured and the Sith lord tells you to kill them, but you refuse and musst battle him. You kill him, and fight the imperials away.

The darkside and lightside levels will be distributed separately (the capture of the Academy is part of the dream level and the aftermath is next. I must trust the player to play the right one (or give him/her the freedom to play both).

Reminds me of the descriptions (I've never played it) of JK1(only there are two possibilities, not a gradual decent to the darkside).

Even though have non-linear plans, several details make it so it doesn't interfere with (a) sequel(s).

1. The New Republic and the Imperial remnant will remain intact.

2. Kyle will end up on the Republic's side in the end.

3. Jan, Luke, and Kyle will not get killed at all.

4. The Raven's Claw will not get destroyed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Required Assets

Okay, I need many assets. Textures, shaders (fog, skies, liquids, etc.) sounds (mainly voice), models, skins, possibly CGI movies (though I certainly doubt it), menu objects (picture (I'm really not that good at making them), and maybe music. Suppliers will be thanked, mentioned in the credits, the level decriptions, readmes and possibly a cool effect I may do with shadows.

Note: If you give voice files, please edit them with goldwave.

These assets will be requested as I need them. Just a heads up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, what do you think? As you can see, I have many, many, plans for this series. Kengo, and you thought I was ambitious before lol.

More questions (I just thought of these now):

Lassev, can you tell me two things?

One, what is your average fps, and two, what script is missing?

Has anyone other than Lassev, downloaded the level?

Okay, 4937 characters. My new record! :D

Massassi is still down:(.

I've learned that Areaportals should be as tall and wide as the doors, but not as deep (as I suspected).

Still having problems, probably from leaks (because of these, the nodes are rejoined at different areas via the void and so everything is still one node. I shall now tell you a tale of how this map has shaped me from an arrogant fool, who seriously underestimated the carnage of a simple leak.

As I mapped, the new forms of gtkradiant cam out. They had working bsp monitoring, but I payed them now mind. This was my first work after JK2radiant, which automatically displays the pointfile and I thought gtk did too, so when it didn't appear, I thought I had no leaks. I was seriously mistaken.

I downloaded the updates of gtk and eventually enabled bsp monitoring. After 20 compiles, ending abruptly with the map debugger stating the map is leaked, I gave up trying to fix them. I was foolish to do so.

As I type, now, I am removing the hundreds of leaks, (it's that bad) and am not going to stop until they're all gone. Now I respect the awesome power and destruction of a leak.

True story. What do you think? Do not pity me because I deserve this. Do not ridicule me because I am redeem-<excuses self to fix, yet, another leak> -ing myself right now.

If the hint brushes in those corridors had no purpose, why use them?
Well, in theory they shouldn't have such an effect as intended (not that I would pretend to know what Raven had in mind). On the other hand, this is not my original idea, far from it, I just respread some wisdom I read once here in the forums. But as soon as you read some quality hint brush tutorial, you'll see it yourself.

One, what is your average fps, and two, what script is missing?
My average? Well, I quess it must be somewhere around 70 to 80. There's only one place in my maps, where FPS is a problem. It's a perfectly areaportaled hangar that has quite a bunch of STs and officers. FPS goes down to ~25 until you start thinning them out. The empty hangar has again around 75 fps. Needless to say, I was cautious when adding extra detail to that hangar (no mirror floors...).

I can't remember the script name. It was the script that should launch when you break the elevator. When I broke it, I just got some very peculiar texture in the place where the elev was, but nothing happened and I couldn't go on to the hangar area. The consol just stated that script missing error.

"cg_drawFPS 1" will draw the FPS.

area portals?... but isn't visible in radiant when the door is in the closed position.
Set the entities not to be shown, and you can see the area portal without the door disturbing (ctrl+shift+N, if I remember correctly).

Wahooooooo!!! I got every last leak! ( For full witness of my joy, imagine the climax of the 1812 overture in the background)
:) :D :comp9: :roll1: :whtsmile: :spin: :joy:

Yeah, I have fps problems there too. I deleted all the non-func_static xwings and three ties (were they in beta2?). How do I areaportal the breakable? Is it done identically to the door?

Also, Lassev, you never answered whether a hint could be used in the place of an areaportal (I know the other way around doesn't work)

Anyway, I'm getting something weird. When I use r_showtris 1, the hangar is drawn (bad), but the pillar part of the columns (not the bottom cap) is not drawn.

whether a hint could be used in the place of an areaportal (I know the other way around doesn't work)
Come on, why would you use hint brush where you can use areaportal? With areaportals you never have problems you couldn't trace to some sensible source. With hint brushes you never have even such a success that you could just copy it to some other place and still get it work. Hint brushes are only used, when there's no solid obstacle (be it an areaportaled door or just a stuctural wall) to separate too areas. However, you must have a non-linear connection between the rooms, preferably a corridor with either two 90 angles bends or one corner if the confronting, partial corridors are long enough, or a T-junction or something like that.

How do I areaportal the breakable? Is it done identically to the door?
Never tried that, but you might just put in the areaportal and then target the breakable to a scriptrunner with a script containing the adjust_areaportals command (or what ever, I don't remember anymore) plus those commands that are otherwise included in the script you forgot to include to the beta2.

The leaks were the problem (I think). Now, the nodes are divided and the fps is back up to a decent level. I just nead to delete some stormies.

About the hint instead of areaportals, lassev, I was just curious.

Okay, new plans for attackonyavin2. Through the windows, I decided you should be able to see some tibanna gas platforms (as seen in Rogue Squadron 2:Rogue Leader). I'm working on them now.

Ummm, lassev? I have divided every room and my fps in the full hangar is still 5 (although it seems to run fine at 15, so I don't know if my fps counter is working properly).

It is drawing 40,000 tris as I entered. No good. I'm going for 18,000 (lots of deletions), which is said in Rich's unseen tutorial (yeah, it hasn't been uploaded on the site, so the links don't work, but here it is. Two tutorials from 230 exist so far. Darth Berserker found the URL).

Here it is :) (http://richdiesal.jedioutcastmaps.com/tutorials/ld230lsn1.html) Hit next lesson and there is one on hints, though it doesn't look complete. The rest don't exist yet.

Here is a very good explanation:
http://www.nibsworld.com/rtcw/tutorial_detail_and_hint_brushes_part1.shtml)

The 2nd part is about hint brushes but good to read the 1st too.

I've got good news and bad news. I got the fps good even when all the NPCs are there. Bad news is, the hangar seems too empty now. Any suggestions that will allow me to keep a good fps with good room detail? (it is a large room with 5 Xwings, 1 tie, 2 stormies, 2 rebels, 4 jedi, and 4 reborn.)

Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of flexibility optimizing large areas. Maybe JA will do better at that, we can only hope. I ran into this sort of problem on City of the Ancients, which was essentially one big area. Not much you can do but try to split it up as much as you can, and then when you can't, make sure anything in there that isn't a necessary wall is detail, there aren't lots of random effects, and cross your fingers.

Have you blocked the previous room from the hangar not to be drawn. It is this connection where you have that func_breakable, I believe? If that hole between the hangar and the previous room with the lift you have to break is not blocked, it will most certainly rob you a good deal of fps. Also, you could make some, let's say 6 or 8-sided columns instead of cylinders, to save a couple of fps and to fill the space. And make sure your little outdoor area behind the big hangar doors is not drawn, when the fighting commences.

Yet, in the end, it is undoubtly due to the large amount of saber wielders. I have no doubt they reserve a good deal of computing power with their "advanced" AI. Even simple STs do have their effect as my own map has proved time after time to me (or maybe it is just the drawing of the complicated human models, who knows...).

Yet, in the end, it is undoubtly due to the large amount of saber wielders

That will do it. I can take out 2 jedi and 2 reborn and put 4 stormies and 4 rebels (to take up more space)

Then, I will delete the tie and an X wing. Models are always a large number of usually unnecessary triangles.

The little outside area could be a problem with the tree models and the gtkgensurf-made ridges. Maybe that's not being blocked off, causing a problem (I hope).

I'll look for my highest triangle count and use that to judge what I can add, keep, or what I must drop.

Some people have noted that static .md3 models do not stress the engine as much as one would think otherwise. However, I cannot really say, if that's true or not.

This thread is certainly a good way to gain posts and points. I'm not anymore a pesky Ewok. Still, I have a long way to go to get a glowing name. Perhaps I should also post a few new screenshots. Some day. MOO3 and Freelancer have had a most disturbing effect on my mapping efficiency. But after all, I have only one room to map anymore. Then some cinematics scripting, some sound effects and voila! And voice acting by some gracious person...

Have you used r_showtris 1? It will reveal any area that the engine is drawing. Usually, if you have low FPS, you either have an uber-detailed map or the engine is going to its knees drawing unseen areas, like if you had forgotten an areaportal or something.

Originally posted by lassev
This thread is certainly a good way to gain posts and points. I'm not anymore a pesky Ewok. Still, I have a long way to go to get a glowing name. Perhaps I should also post a few new screenshots. Some day. MOO3 and Freelancer have had a most disturbing effect on my mapping efficiency. But after all, I have only one room to map anymore. Then some cinematics scripting, some sound effects and voila! And voice acting by some gracious person...

Looks like you only need a few more points, you want me to donate the remaining number you need to reach 300? I'd really love to see your finished project as well as this topic's one! I can get ya in contact with a few good voice actors who worked on Ocupation if you want, I'm sure they'd be happy of some more work :)

Sorry, Kengo, I already donated to Lassev (gotta give thanks to Lassev for helping to teach me how to use areaportals and hint brushes). Lassev, let this attractive glow, uhhhhh, well, be attractive. Pick the color wisely.

Wedge, I have been using r_showtris 1 and every room is separate from every other room. The fps is okay now, but I need to add detail because in the process, I deleted many X wings. I'll just put lots of debris on the ground (if 12 triangles per rectangular brush, this should work out nicely).

Edit: Ooops, I forgot to mention: Massassi is up again, but still hasn't been updated :(.