Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok ep2 Anakin I'll answer your thing about your friends nicely.

They chose to join the military, correct? They knew that when they joined, there was always a possibility of them going to war, correct? You knew that as well. Now that war looks immenent, they can't turn away and run scared, they must face it, bravely. And they will to. Now, I don't agree with SOME aspects of this war but wanting the US not to go to war because of your friends is, well, in my opinion silly. Why would anyone join the military and then want to leave at the first sign of danger? They are doing what they wanted to do. Support them in their decision, they are protecting you far from there homeland. Now, they may not like this war at ALL but they knew that when they joined the Army, that it could happen. And they are probably proud to be there, knowing that some little girl or boy or adult will sleep better in the US knowing that they are keeping them safe.

have you read any of my posts? i don't like war at ALL, i USED to think "let's kill some bad guys!" but now i'm like "talk it out cuz it only gets worse when there's fighting" ok? they joined because they wanted to yes, but ARE NOT wanting to run away, they haven't said anything to me like "war sucks, i dont' wanna be here" ok? my posts were saying that i don't like war, and the fact that i have friends over there makes me EVEN MORE opposed to it. they aren't running away, or wanting to. i NEVER said they didn't want to be there. and i NEVER said i wanted the U.S. to stay out of this war JUST BECAUSE i have friends in the Marines. you are putting words in my mouth/changing what i said to now support your argument and make me look dumber, more selfish, or whatever you want to call it. read thoroughly before you respond, i think that's twice you've done that to my posts

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
have you read any of my posts? i don't like war at ALL, i USED to think "let's kill some bad guys!" but now i'm like "talk it out cuz it only gets worse when there's fighting" ok? they joined because they wanted to yes, but ARE NOT wanting to run away, they haven't said anything to me like "war sucks, i dont' wanna be here" ok? my posts were saying that i don't like war, and the fact that i have friends over there makes me EVEN MORE opposed to it. they aren't running away, or wanting to. i NEVER said they didn't want to be there. and i NEVER said i wanted the U.S. to stay out of this war JUST BECAUSE i have friends in the Marines. you are putting words in my mouth/changing what i said to now support your argument and make me look dumber, more selfish, or whatever you want to call it. read thoroughly before you respond, i think that's twice you've done that to my posts


Do you honestly think that Saddam is going to come out over peace talks? The UN is just sitting on its ass (pardon the language) and doing nothing. Everytime the US tries to talk to them, it just takes longer and longer for things to get done.

Tell me, after seeing that nothing has happened when the US HAS tried to go through the UN, what should we do? Huh?

And sorry about my last post, I admit, I made a mistake.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Do you honestly think that Saddam is going to come out over peace talks? The UN is just sitting on its ass (pardon the language) and doing nothing. Everytime the US tries to talk to them, it just takes longer and longer for things to get done.


People don't always agree, and you can't force anyone to do it. Perhaps UN is taking some time, but what is the alternative? That one part decides it all? If so, the entire point about UN fades away, and the world turns into a dictatorship. And no one here wants that to happen, eh?

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
People don't always agree, and you can't force anyone to do it. Perhaps UN is taking some time, but what is the alternative? That one part decides it all? If so, the entire point about UN fades away, and the world turns into a dictatorship. And no one here wants that to happen, eh?

No I certainly don't want a world dictatorship. :D But when I look at the grand picture, it seems that the UN is just there as a "puppet figure" (if I may) just to make it seem like they are getting things done, when they aren't. Don't get me wrong, thats just my impression and I'm not old enough to have experienced otherwise.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No I certainly don't want a world dictatorship. :D But when I look at the grand picture, it seems that the UN is just there as a "puppet figure" (if I may) just to make it seem like they are getting things done, when they aren't. Don't get me wrong, thats just my impression and I'm not old enough to have experienced otherwise.

It has, of course, done a lot of things. It's just that you don't often hear about it, because it is in matters where people don't really disagree much. But you can think of it as the Senate in SW about creating or not creating an army of the republic. Some of them wants to, some of them don't. You can't change any minds, and you can't make anyone agree, so it's a very tricky situation indeed, because there isn't really anything you can do. Unless, someone wise decides, but that would be a dictatorship. But is a dictatorship always bad? As Anakin says in ep2, "Well, if it works..."

how bout this... everyone just say Screw it!....no, eh just a thought i mean when you try to force someone to think what you think and they still dont think like you, you just forget it. but oh well.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
It has, of course, done a lot of things. It's just that you don't often hear about it, because it is in matters where people don't really disagree much. But you can think of it as the Senate in SW about creating or not creating an army of the republic. Some of them wants to, some of them don't. You can't change any minds, and you can't make anyone agree, so it's a very tricky situation indeed, because there isn't really anything you can do. Unless, someone wise decides, but that would be a dictatorship. But is a dictatorship always bad? As Anakin says in ep2, "Well, if it works..."

Yes, you're right. :D But on all the HUGE matters of importance, it just looks to me like the UN is just a "puppet figure." And you're right, it is very hard to change other people's minds who are set firmly on one goal.

And about the "If it works..." thing. Take ancient history for example. Specifically China. During the Qin Dynasty (221 B.C. - 202 B.C.) the ruler Shi Huangdi established an autocracy (a ruler with unlimited power) He forced peasants to build over 4,000 miles of roads and the Great Wall of China. His system worked, but the peasants weren't happy. They revolted when his son took over and the Qin Dynasty was demolished.

Now, that might not have been a very good example ( :D ) but it is one of a government "working" but the people may not like it. I don't care if a world dictatorship works, I don't exactly revel in the though of a person controlling the ENTIRE world. It makes me shiver to know that some madman could be voted in...

I don't think that anyone posting in this thread or the hundreds who have read it will ever change their minds. Humans seem to labor under the illusion that a witty retort or long winded discussion is all it takes to make someone change their mind.
Think for a minute, has anyone from the opposing side made you think for 1 second you were wrong? I doubt it. I won't say it never happens though.

I guess the last thing I would say to those who disagree with me (iam against war and the US acting without an international mandate) is: Please do not lump me with hippies, and self serving librals. I am not a Pascifist by any stretch of the imagination. I believe we are better off with a strong up to date military than not, I just think that war with Iraq now is like trying to kill a hornet with a machine gun. Eventually you are going to win but the damge YOU do will be worse than a hornet could ever do.

Just a quick note about terms of enlistment: Now, I am not positive about Commissioned Officers, but for enlisted soldiers, 4 years of Inactive Ready Reserve are tacked on when you get out of the Army. This just means that it is still possible that you, as an ex-soldier can be recalled for up to 4 years after your enlistment ends. I have heard that officers can always be recalled, though, like I said, I am not sure of that one.

Like Griff said, no one is going to change anyone's mind here. You don't have to agree with war. I do because I don't believe that Saddam Hussein should be in control of a country. He used mustard gas to kill his own, in what, like 1998, and he has been reported by CNN as summarily executing those who disagree with his policies. His own people, behind closed doors, don't want him in power, but they are scared for their lives to speak up. Remember his joke of an election where he was unanimously re-elected. But, that is my opinion. I put my faith in GW's hands, and maybe I am naive, but I trusted him as my Governor, and I trust him as the leader of our country. Let's see what happens tomorrow. You know it's inevitable when the UN Inspectors pack up and leave.

You Americans really need to stop talking about stuff like Bravery, Honor, Freedom etc.

We all got that. Every country has the bravest most honourable soldiers. We all got "freedom".

Just please stop already. It sounds so silly.

America is a country filled with normal people. You are not more handsome, more beautiful, more talented, wiser or intelligent than the rest of the civilized world.

Two words: Hollywood ;)

Ever see the movie Independence Day with Will Smith and the aliens. Near the end, the Iraqians are all happy saying, "Finally, the Americans have come up with a plan". That is crying out for egotism. What if it were the other way around?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not anti-American

Originally posted by C'jais
Freedom fries is just the start. Have you heard the news about how your government is going to digging up dead soldiers in the mass burials in France, and ship them back home for a "proper military burial" as France has apparently "forgotten everything about honour in war." Next thing you know, they're going to surgically remove New Jersey from the mainland, and send the statue of Liberty (which was a present from France) back home.

Sorry to dig up this thread but you're kidding about the burial thing right?? :eek:

LOL How stupid and vulcan like people are. When I say Home of the brave I mean it and it's true. Ever heard of morale. You people have no faith in your own country. I cheer for my soldiers why? becuase they protect me out of their own free will. If I could I would fight with them. Our President is the best president ever. That stupid binoculars picture is edited. I saw the real one on tv. You be surpirsed how many talented people are around who uses photoshop. So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid. Give me a break already yeeshhhh! Poor Bill O'reily of the O'reily factor has to put up with so many stupid retards I'm surprised the guy is still sane. In short liberals are stupid. :rolleyes:

PS 400 POST MARK YEEEHAAAA

*I posted this in a Swamp-thread, but I'll copy-paste it here too.*


Are you kidding me?!? They put up US flags!?? :disaprove

Oh man, that is so tacky!

I watched Euronews "no comment" today for a while. They showed pictures from all over Iraq, but nothing really interesting until they zoomed in on some iraqi soldiers who had surrendered and were sitting in the sand with their hands behind their heads. One of them started walking towards a fellow soldier when a US-army dude jumped in the picture waving his gun and shouting: " SIT DOWN! SIT THE F*CK DOWN! SIT-THE-F*CK-DOWN!!!

And precisely at that moment, 3:27pm, Euronews switched to the weather forecast. :rolleyes:

Oh and another thing: I learned about the future plans the US has for Iraq.

A) When the war is over the country will be run by US general whateverhisnameis.

B) The role of UN is to stay out of the way when Yankees do their thing in Iraq.

C) After securing a US-friendly goverment, they will assign American consultants to every single bureau in the country. These consultants will tell exactly what will be done and what choices Iraqi people must choose.

D) All corporations must be denationalized.

E) Iraq must acknowledge Israel.


There are already deals made with US companies about the reconstruction of Iraq.

So to sum it up: Bush appoints a US-friendly leader/goverment to Iraq who'll surely make sweet oil-deals and whatever with americans. The UN can give all the humanitarian aid they want, as long as they don't mess with Bush's plans.

Now...if you'll excuse me, if must throw up. I'm disgusted. Shame on you mr. Bush. :(

*Any thoughts?*

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
LOL How stupid and vulcan like people are. When I say Home of the brave I mean it and it's true

Please watch "Bowling for Columbine".

I cheer for my soldiers why? becuase they protect me out of their own free will.

They protect you because they are paid for it. And they don't even protect you in the Iraq crisis, as the situation is far more dangerous now that you have attacked them,

Our President is the best president ever.

Give me one single reason on why you actually belive that. Bush has ruined the economy and made both Europe and the entire Arab world really pissed at you. If he's the best president ever, then there hasn't been any good presidents.

So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid. Give me a break already yeeshhhh! Poor Bill O'reily of the O'reily factor has to put up with so many stupid retards I'm surprised the guy is still sane. In short liberals are stupid.

Run out of arguments, have yeh? Obviously, you can't agrue against the belief of liberals, just call them stupid. I have other views on who's stupid here.

(BTW, I'm not liberal.)

Originally posted by ET Warrior
While I think that George Bush is quite unintelligent, and probably not the best president we've ever had, he still is doing what he feels is necessary, and I quite frankly don't think he's a war monger.....i'll bet the public doesn't know 1/100th of the stuff that G.W. knows about the situation in Iraq, all they get is what they can find in the media.

Exactly. We might as well go to war now before Saddam become even stronger.

We must stop Iraq. They do have weapons. Bush is doing a great job and oh yea.... They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq. Some amazing U.N Inspectors you had there for a while :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq.

Please post a link or reference to that information. The last I heard (this morning) was that WMDs had yet to be discovered, and that the search for them was not the focus of the war at this point. And well it should not be. Unit commanders need to be focused on battle-specific missions and not be side-lined to doing two things at once.

I'm interested in reading about the chem-weapons facility.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
Our President is the best president ever.

Actually I'd lean toward Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Kennedy, Carter and Reagan for differing reasons... Bush still has yet to prove himself.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
That stupid binoculars picture is edited.

I think I remember an article in one of the weekly newsrags that pointed out that he accepted the Binos from someone, realized they were capped, then un-capped them. As someone pointed out earlier, there just happened to be a lucky photographer handy.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
So many "I'M A LIBERAL! I'M A LIBERAL!" Idiots around. All they do is make things long and difficult. They make complete dumbasses of themselves. Their veiws are totally stupid.

It's interesting to point out that liberalism is not a bad thing. In fact, most of the progress that our country has enjoyed has come from "liberal" politicians and "liberal" administrations. It is the Republican Party machine that has, over the last few decades, used the word "liberal" as if it were profanity. Much the same way the word "communist" was used. It was fashionable up to a few years ago to call anyone that disagreed with American government "communist" as a way to slander them.

Nothing wrong with liberalism as long as it is balanced by conservatism and vice-versa. Too much of either is bad for the country.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
PS 400 POST MARK YEEEHAAAA

Congrats!

Originally posted by Luc Solar
There are already deals made with US companies about the reconstruction of Iraq.

So to sum it up: Bush appoints a US-friendly leader/goverment to Iraq who'll surely make sweet oil-deals and whatever with americans. The UN can give all the humanitarian aid they want, as long as they don't mess with Bush's plans.

Now...if you'll excuse me, if must throw up. I'm disgusted. Shame on you mr. Bush. :(

*Any thoughts?*

-- Lots of countries are trying to get bids on business in Iraq
-- The new government will be supervised by the U.N.
-- For the short term the oil companies will still operate under the food-for-oil program
-- Long term I forgot what but they were discussing all this with the British Secertary of State (is that the title?) in the House of Commons yesterday, or the day before.

-- Lots of countries are trying to get bids on business in Iraq....The new government will be supervised by the U.N


Yeah.. well that is just about what everyone is hoping.

What I heard on the news is a totally different story however.

In that program the UN had no role. And if you got a US-friendly goverment, guess who will be getting all the sweet deals? Some Swedish company? :rolleyes: I don't think so...

Franks will be the ruler of Iraq for as long as it takes to for THE US to appoint a suitable goverment. And THE US assigns consultants all over Iraq to make sure that things are done exactly the way BUSH wants.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here? :confused:

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Yeah.. well that is just about what everyone is hoping.

What I heard on the news is a totally different story however.

In that program the UN had no role. And if you got a US-friendly goverment, guess who will be getting all the sweet deals? Some Swedish company? :rolleyes: I don't think so...

Franks will be the ruler of Iraq for as long as it takes to for THE US to appoint a suitable goverment. And THE US assigns consultants all over Iraq to make sure that things are done exactly the way BUSH wants.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here? :confused:

And I thought the news wasn't trustworthy? The way you really find out what's going to happen is to watch what the politicians are saying. Watch the house of commons, watch the senate.

Originally posted by Chastan
And I thought the news wasn't trustworthy? The way you really find out what's going to happen is to watch what the politicians are saying.

Because as we all know by now, politicians always speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

;)

Originally posted by C'jais
Because as we all know by now, politicians always speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

;)
Same with the news.

The trick is to balance information from various news services (I try to be sure to catch BBC News for an outside perspective) as well as hear all sides of issues with media and politicians.

Doing this makes it easier to formulate your own views. I ask myself: what are the facts in the situation? What are the opinions? How do they support the facts? Are their facts that cannot give credibility to opinions? Do those that think different from me have valid points? What are they? Could they be right?

The trick to figuring out what's going on isn't to find the answers.... it's to find the right questions.

Check this link (http://cryptome.sabotage.org/iraq-booty.htm) to get an interesting perspective.

Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
We must stop Iraq. They do have weapons. Bush is doing a great job and oh yea.... They did find a chemical weapons facelity in So Iraq. Some amazing U.N Inspectors you had there for a while :rolleyes:

You have failed to prove they have. Innocent until proven guilty. And tell me: If they did have weapons, then why the helheim haven't they used them? I'm having more and more reason to belive USA knew that Iraq didn't have weapons. I mean, why else would they be so negative against the weapon inspectors in the first place? Why else would they present forged evidence to the SC?

And about the chemical weapons factory: The news comes from Fox News, the worst example of propaganda in USA. And of course, no one has ever said that it was a chemical weapons factory. They only suspect it.

And about the Weapon Inspectors: I'm sure you would do a much better job, right?

What happened to that chemical weapon factory? Some anonymous Pentagon employee said that there was as huge camouflaged WOMD-factory somewhere in the desert.

I'd really like to see some footage of that. Why aren't they showing any?

And where are all the happy liberated Iraq citizens? So much talk, so little proof.

I'm confused. Are they all out of film? Did everyone accidentally drop and brake their cameras or what? :confused:

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Innocent until proven guilty.

Thats for the US court, NOT War.

i think we have prooven enough guilt against the iraqi govt.

Originally posted by daring dueler
i think we have prooven enough guilt against the iraqi govt.

Then where is the evidence? Burned in a forest fire? Stolen by bug-eyed martians?

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Then where is the evidence? Burned in a forest fire? Stolen by bug-eyed martians?

How about the 3000 Kurdish people gassed some years ago, or the athletes that were killed or beaten for not winning by Saddam's eldest son?

why yes burning in the forest next to whinnie the pooh and chris robbin!
i agreee with reborn outcast thats why.
his murder, cover ups, innocent gassings, rape rooms!
not enough for you?

Well...most goverments, the people and the UN do not agree with you on that.

Not liking Saddam is not reason enough to bomb a country.

There are probably a dozen other countries with mad, fanatic leaders and starving, oppressed people.

If the US is not a hypocrit with ulterior motives, they will continue and drop their bombs in all these countries too, right?

Or perhaps this "bad leader who must be removed"-thingie is spiced with some other motives? Personal vendetta? WOMD's? Oil? Evil Sionist Plot? (LOL!) Opening a new huge market to US companies? etc.etc.

The thing is... before you attack, you should have enough proof. Clearly the US did not come through with that.
The UN said "no", Bush said "whatever, we'll attack anyways". THAT is the problem.

I think some people here has watched too much Fox News.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
I think some people here has watched too much Fox News.

I think some people are in denile. :rolleyes:

in denile of fox news? or a govt of the world being wrong?

Since this thread is entitled "Bush...... My President," I thought I'd offer further evidence of the corrupt nature of the Bush administration.

Richard Perle, head of the Defense Policy Board and appointed by D. Rumsfeld, has been exposed as lining his pockets with kickbacks from potential/actual government contractors. Apparently he was to receive a $725, 000 fee for securing a government contract with Global Crossing (the recently bankrupted), $600, 000 of which would be paid once the contract was approved by the Pentagon. I'd call that a serious incentive to influence approval.

This is the same guy that was the foreign policy advisor for Bush during his Presidential campaign.

It should also be noted that this potential contract with Global Crossing is about setting up Homeland Security. Do we really want to trust a company on the same fiscal level as Worldcom and Enron to security of our homeland?

Perle is also a managing partner in Trireme Partners L. P., which invests in businesses that deal with technology, goods and services that have to do with Homeland Security.

This creates a very clear conflict of interest in between his Governmental position as head of the Defense Policy Board and Trireme. He is considered a special government employeed and subject to the federal codes of conduct, which prohibit using position to take make personal profit beyond the governmental pay scale.

These links give more detailed descriptions.

Richard Perle in the Wall Street Journal (http://cryptome.org/perle-apes.htm)

Richard Perle in the New Yorker (http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?030317fa_fact)

There is a bit in the New Yorker article about his influence over the whole Iraq War thing as well. But this goes to show that the primary motivations of the members of the Bush Administration (as well as Bush himself) is to make the rich richer.