Originally posted by obi-wan13
If you want to say something bad about AMERICA, then you are dead wrong.
When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.
Don't bash the country, or else you are just bashing the people that live in it.
Country and people is not the same thing.
Originally posted by C'jais
When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.
The government is doing what it has to do.
Originally posted by C'jais
When we're talking about America's actions, we're not talking about what Joe did to his lawn mower at the latest barbeque - we're talking about the nation's actions on a global scale. IE, what the government is doing.
Country and people is not the same thing.
I have this thing when I see "America did soandso," or "America didn't do soandso," or "America did soandso too much," or "America didn't do soandso enough," that they are talking about the country as a whole, including the people on my block, and the people the next town over, etc. I guess it's just a stupid mindset I have, but it's just one of those things that gets my goat. But if someone is talking about government actions, please state so......I have no problem with government-bashing. If I did, I would be going against the constitution, the foundation upon which this country was made.
Imo, the people make the country. If we(the ordinary citizens) weren't here, it's just be a bunch of guys in suits running around.
Originally posted by ckcsaber
The government is doing what it has to do.
The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully. They have already started doing that, so I ask you: What is the point of war then?
I have this thing when I see "America did soandso," or "America didn't do soandso," or "America did soandso too much," or "America didn't do soandso enough," that they are talking about the country as a whole, including the people on my block, and the people the next town over, etc. I guess it's just a stupid mindset I have, but it's just one of those things that gets my goat. But if someone is talking about government actions, please state so......I have no problem with government-bashing. If I did, I would be going against the constitution, the foundation upon which this country was made.
It has always been so in political coherence (is that the right word to use?) that when you talk about a country, you mean their goverment. Such as "North Korea revives it's nuclear program", then you do not talk about the people, but the goverment. Or "Switzerland was neutral in WW2", then you don't talk about the people, but the goverment. Or "Norway bans smoking", you still don't talk about the people, but the goverment. So if I say that I think USA's foreign politics are pretty bad, then I do not mean, nor thinks, that each single American is pretty bad on dealing with foreign countries, I talk about the goverment.
Well I don't personally feel that I am bashing my country. I question the actions of our president, who is what this thread was about last time I checked. Sorry if I came off as being to critical. I love the USA, I will never leave, I have and will defend it again if need be, but it is also my right as a registered voter(and veteran of the United States Armed Forces) to question the actions of our president. Lately I think he is only making himself look bad in the eyes of other nations.
I wasn't talking about you Groovy. ;)
As I said, critisizing the government is different from critisizing the people in the country. You believe that Bush is doing wrong, and you supported your belief with numerous examples. You did nothing wrong. ;)
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully.
What do you think the US has been doing the past 10 years!!
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Oh FFS!
You Americans really need to stop talking about stuff like Bravery, Honor, Freedom etc.
We all got that. Every country has the bravest most honourable soldiers. We all got "freedom".
Just please stop already. It sounds so silly.
America is a country filled with normal people. You are not more handsome, more beautiful, more talented, wiser or intelligent than the rest of the civilized world.
And if you talk about "honor", why not visit...Japan for instance and then talk about your superhuman "honor" with or without the "u".
News flash: While you bask in the glory of the greatness of your people and country, the rest of the world thinks of Americans as nothing but Arrogant, Dumb and Fat.
Don't get me wrong: that's not an insult, that is the stereotype.
EDIT: quoting ET Warrior: (hope you don't mind..)
Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner. America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's. Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America. We have immendments, a decleration of independence, and many other freedom codes. We are free to have any religion we want. We have the right to practice any religion we see fit. Many other countries have that right too. Also look at Afghanistan before we went in there and captured Taliban soldiers. The Afghanistan people have very little freedom. We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers. We had too fight thousands of British soldiers to earn freedom. And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery. Look at the firemen and police officers and other Americans who went in and risked there lives to save INNOCENT PEOPLE from dying in a tragic and sad event. I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks. 3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents. What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb. Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming. Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us. No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries. We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years. Why isnt it fair for america to be powerful too. And yes we can be selfish sometimes, but that doesnt mean all Americans are thick headed. you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision. It is not our war but we play a major part in it. And all you non war people arent gonna change anything. You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty. i dont agree with War but the only way to win sometimes is to fight, this is no time for using words because they dont work in these large circumstances. Either do peace treatys. All they would do right now is make America and the UN nations think that were on good turms, they would catch us off guard and kill innocent civilians. I love too share my opinion and i hope you will too. If you disagree with me, reply and or PM on your decision.
EDIT: I just saw something on the nes. Venders arent gonna sell french fries anymore, they are gonna be freedom fries. I am not bying anything french for awhile they are being p****'s. And one more thing war sometimes is the answer. Also Bush senior never did that stuff about abbandoning Iraqians. Thats just a made up rumor that you and your little friends made up to make people beleive in crap like that. He did not desert them. They chose to join Sadam, he chose not to have war. And yes why dont you perfect englishmen and whatnot go to Iraq or Afghanistan and read the bible. In some places in Asia they cut of your hands for eating gum, and if you litter they will cut of your ear. In America people can read a Bible anywhere they want. I mean i read the bible at school, try doing that anywhere else.
Originally posted by ckcsaber
What do you think the US has been doing the past 10 years!! they havent been doing anything with him instead theyve been all over palestine and kuwait, places they dont need to be.
The Gulf War
Originally posted by Father Torque
Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner. America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's. Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America. We have immendments, a decleration of independence, and many other freedom codes. We are free to have any religion we want. We have the right to practice any religion we see fit. Many other countries have that right too. Also look at Afghanistan before we went in there and captured Taliban soldiers. The Afghanistan people have very little freedom. We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers. We had too fight thousands of British soldiers to earn freedom. And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery. Look at the firemen and police officers and other Americans who went in and risked there lives to save INNOCENT PEOPLE from dying in a tragic and sad event. I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks. 3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents. What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb. Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming. Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us. No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries. We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years. Why isnt it fair for america to be powerful too. And yes we can be selfish sometimes, but that doesnt mean all Americans are thick headed. you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision. It is not our war but we play a major part in it. And all you non war people arent gonna change anything. You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty. i dont agree with War but the only way to win sometimes is to fight, this is no time for using words because they dont work in these large circumstances. Either do peace treatys. All they would do right now is make America and the UN nations think that were on good turms, they would catch us off guard and kill innocent civilians. I love too share my opinion and i hope you will too. If you disagree with me, reply and or PM on your decision.
You really are right. Bravo Torque
Ok wow. :D I got here a little late but I read all the posts and heres what I have to say...
I am a firm supporter in Bush. Wanna know why? 4 words...
He is not conformist.
Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that. If this whole thing gets screwed up because of him... well then I say good 1 term and I hope you get a lot of Secret Service agents to guard you. If Saddam gets overthrown and Iraq becomes a democracy then there are going to be a lot of people feeling a little stupid. Definately those who didn't want him to do it in the first place.
This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect. He IS our President whether we like it or not and hes doing what a President should be doing by addressing these world issues be it the right way or not.
The US has been patiently waiting for Saddam to do something or step down or go into self-exile for around a DECADE now. As has been shown, he is NOT going to do it. This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid. Sounds nice huh? And he does this to his own people. This is why he should be gone.
Just my $0.02
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok wow. :D I got here a little late but I read all the posts and heres what I have to say...
I am a firm supporter in Bush. Wanna know why? 4 words...
He is not conformist.
Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that. If this whole thing gets screwed up because of him... well then I say good 1 term and I hope you get a lot of Secret Service agents to guard you. If Saddam gets overthrown and Iraq becomes a democracy then there are going to be a lot of people feeling a little stupid. Definately those who didn't want him to do it in the first place.
This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect. He IS our President whether we like it or not and hes doing what a President should be doing by addressing these world issues be it the right way or not.
The US has been patiently waiting for Saddam to do something or step down or go into self-exile for around a DECADE now. As has been shown, he is NOT going to do it. This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid. Sounds nice huh? And he does this to his own people. This is why he should be gone.
Just my $0.02
Greatly said Reborn. Me you ckc obi and otherr bush supporters should form the LF Bush supporters club. yeah:D . What do you think:p
Haha we could. :D It all depends on the reaction we would get. :D
Not a good one from the looks of it:p
I'm with ya! I might not like "Dubya", but I like war with Iraq.
Let's rock and roll.
Originally posted by SupremePain
LMAO:eek: you think America is a rich country? i dont have any problem with Americans but i do with the american system... and as for Bush: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, his father made the people of Iraq rebel againts Saddam, he promised to back them up, but what did he do? he bailed on them and Saddam Hussein slaugthered them for betraying him, Bush is in my opinion not fit as a president at all... i agree with that Saddam needs to be stopped but launching a war is not the awnser, WAR IS NEVER THE AWNSER.... many innocent civilience will die, i am proud of Germany and France and other countrys that says no to help Bush out in the war, my own country (Denmark) supports Bush in the war
YYYEEEHHAAA!!! You go, my brother man! About half of the Citizens of the United States are not informed enough to know about that event or ignore, justify or explain it away.
You see, we citizens of the United States can live in an incredible life with very little effort . The United States is a great place to live and raise a family for most of us. There are so many countless pursuits and endless opportunities of all kinds that it becomes easy to ignore your responsibility to your fellow humans. I know people watch tv and movies all over the world but I think people who has never been to the United States have no concept of how many hours most of us spend in front of the tv. I won't even go into computers and other related technology.
But back to the point I want to make about United States, there are many here who think that somehow we are different, unique, unusually powerful, somehow having more "honor" than people of other nations. They see only the good about ourselves and ignore anyone that might dare for a microsecond say that we are normal like everyone else and may actually do something wrong.
The United States is a Neo-Rome. You can be a stalwart religious zelot, you can become a filthy rich billionare, you can be a decadent no taboo restricted hedonist that would make the Sodomites & Gommorahns blush. But unless you want to, you never have to become adult enough to treat your fellow human being with 10 % of the respect you demand from them.
And for anyone who is about to suggest AGAIN that I should love it or leave it, I'm not going anywhere; I'm staying here and trying to convince you to be fair to EVERYBODY not just "us".
I'm really tired of people complaining how the US involves itself in other countries affairs when it should keep to itself, and then those SAME people argue that it doesn't matter if it's American lives or Iraqi lives, we're all the same thing.
You're contradicting yourself. If the country you're from doesn't matter, then why does it matter if US tries to help out other oppressed people from getting taken over? Wouldn't it make more sense for the US to get MORE involved in other countries? In an effort to unite the entire world? Or perhaps we should just NOT do anything in other countries EVER, and then everyone can bitch about how the US is so self centered they never leave their own borders :rolleyes:
hey rhett, let me shoot two of your best friends cuz some old guy says so, sounds cool to me.........well, maybe not huh. hobgoblin was calling everyone who doesn't want to go to war crybabies, lets send his teenage ass over there to get shot at, i gurantee he'll change his mind real quick. that's what i'm saying, maybe i shoulda worded it so it was more understandable to what i was saying. but the message is still the same, if you think everyone who opposes war is a crybaby, let me shoot you in the chest and see how bad YOU cry for family, friends, and forgiveness as you slowly accept your unavoidable death, sound good to you? come to wyoming and i'll make it happen. everyone i've talked to does NOT want to go to war and does NOT like bush, this is just redneck wyoming though, we don't matter, oh well, it's just no use trying to explain ANYTHING to the ignorant, i said i would leave, but i just had to come back and keep this debate going cuz it tore at me all day, until you realize that war is the worst thing ever this thread will go on forever and i will start new ones if needed, most everybody here has NOBODY involved in the military, that's why your opinions are different from us who do. you're so ready to send others to their deaths just so you can enjoy low gas prices and "safety" from the "evil" in the world, maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just yourselves, sad is what you are
i don't care if my post was "mature" or not, it's what i felt and what i felt people like hobgoblin should do, enjoy editing this one too, if you're gonna
Wyoming is a state? When did this happen? Who let it happen?
You know what's hilarious?
How everybody complains about how much scrutiny Clinton came under for the BJ thing....yet nobody complains about how his horrible mis-management of this country hasn't been scrutinized.
And somebody tell me why Bush is an "illegal" president :rolleyes:
And need we remind you that your friends KNOWINGLY, and INTENTIONALLY joined the military? I mean, service is not forced. I'm not joining the army, and nothing bad will happen to me because of it. Hmmm, military, as defined by dictionary.com..1. Of or pertaining to soldiers, to arms, or to war; belonging to, engaged in, or appropriate to, the affairs of war;
Joining the military means that you have chosen to take part in wars which happen. It's a sad thing, and NOBODY WANTS IT. But sometimes it does happen, and anyone who has the courage and abilities to join the armed services has earned my instant respect. I have family who has been to war. I know it's not pretty. I know people who are in the military, I pray for them. But they joined the military for a reason, and that reason is to protect the free peoples of the world. And now they are being called upon to fulfill that duty. Saddam Hussein, while perhaps not an immediate threat to the world, and certainly not to America at the moment, is still an evil man (even though some say evil doesn't exist) and what he does is wrong and cruel and needs to be stopped. As the most powerful nation in the world I feel it is our duty to stand up and say "enough. you are finished with your evil acts and you will stop, NOW."
maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just yourselves, sad is what you are
Maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just your friends in the military, selfish is what you are. Saddam Hussein, I believe, would not hesitate to kill MILLIONS to achieve his goals. And those brave people in our military are going, maybe to give their lives, to protect those innocent millions. They will suffer, so others won't have to. And I salute them.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The US goverment don't have to attack him. Keep the military pressure at him and make him disarm peacfully.
We've had pressure on him for a decade. After so long of the threat of military, and we never actually do anything military, he's going to realize it's just a bluff. "No, really, we're gonna attack this time if you don't disarm...no, we MEAN it this time...we're not kidding!!!!!" Saddam called our bluff....and now it seems we're going to show him that we were holding a royal flush all along.
(sorry for the poker analogies....i was watching maverick)
Ok...wow, a lot of hot feelings going around...
You know what would be really funny? If Saddam abdicated and walked away, said 'I'm tired of this, I will let America install a new government providing it gives me amnesty for any perciveced crimes I have commited' handed over the country, and Bush said 'well ok' took his troops and left.
France and Germany would feel pretty stupid :p. It won't happen, for a lot of reasons, but I was amusing myself thinking about it. Suddenly all around the world Bush's public status would go from 'warmongering hick' to 'visionary peacemaker.'
To the people who have problem with America and Americans...America is the Empire of it's day (not in the SW sense...though some may think so :p) it is the most powerful country in the world. This isn't arrogance, I don't think? In the past this title has been held by other countries, England, France, The Roman Empire, are a few examples. These countries all have a common theme, they were filled with arrogant people. They were filled with arrogant people because they were the most powerful countries in the world. Is America the BEST country in the world, obviously not, that is CLEARLY Canada ;).
The trouble with being the most powerful country in the world, is that other nations tend to be critical...if Finland...for example...were in the hot seat, I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't be doing much better than America. Think of past dominant empire's foreign policies, have they ever been very good? Why not? Possibly because they could get away with bad foreign policy?...
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, is the saying, and I think a lot of power corrupts a lot, as is the case in the US. It's a basically decent country turned askew with the power it holds. Let's face it, if America wants to go to war with Iraq, who is going to stop it? :(
That is why I don't really think that protests and whatnot are particualy constructive, Bush is going to finish his dads war one way or another, so we may as well hold on and hope for the best. And hopefully no one will ever correct me in a McDonalds when I ask for french fries...I envision the scenario thusly:
"...and I'd like french fries with that."
"Actually sir, they're known as liberty fries."
"Wha...."
"French fries are unpatriotic...they're for losers."
*beats clerk with convieniently placed stick*
seriosuly...liberty fries...oi vay...
//edit
err, freedom fries...I was thinking liberty cabbage...(which was real...)
Originally posted by ET Warrior
And need we remind you that your friends KNOWINGLY, and INTENTIONALLY joined the military? I mean, service is not forced. I'm not joining the army, and nothing bad will happen to me because of it. Hmmm, military, as defined by dictionary.com..
Joining the military means that you have chosen to take part in wars which happen. It's a sad thing, and NOBODY WANTS IT. But sometimes it does happen, and anyone who has the courage and abilities to join the armed services has earned my instant respect. I have family who has been to war. I know it's not pretty. I know people who are in the military, I pray for them. But they joined the military for a reason, and that reason is to protect the free peoples of the world. And now they are being called upon to fulfill that duty. Saddam Hussein, while perhaps not an immediate threat to the world, and certainly not to America at the moment, is still an evil man (even though some say evil doesn't exist) and what he does is wrong and cruel and needs to be stopped. As the most powerful nation in the world I feel it is our duty to stand up and say "enough. you are finished with your evil acts and you will stop, NOW."
Maybe you should think about EVERYONE instead of just your friends in the military, selfish is what you are. Saddam Hussein, I believe, would not hesitate to kill MILLIONS to achieve his goals. And those brave people in our military are going, maybe to give their lives, to protect those innocent millions. They will suffer, so others won't have to. And I salute them.
Ya as i said early and you re-quoted. ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person. Your opinion isnt even fun to argue about. Why do you thin kthey joined the army ep. Maybe they would rather die for our country instead of moan about YOURSELF. They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american. They would rather save 6.4 BILLION people. And wh yare you wuurying about 2. you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen. You got to reach beyond your own world and think about others. Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it. Imagine what they will do next if we dont rid of them. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level. Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war. It is completely different. War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds. Face up to it, nothing is changing his opinion and nothing will. So why dont you support your friends and send them letters instead of whining about how they might die. If they saw you writing this stuff they would think you were a whimpy selfish person. If they think war is so bad, tell them to resign. Dont make decisions for them. They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be
-Father Torque
I tried to read the earlier posts but there was simply too much ranting and I'm in a hurry anyways, so I'll just say this:
Did you know that when North Korea's president Kim Jong-il went to play golf for the first time in his life, he succeeded in hitting ELEVEN CONSECUTIVE HOLE-IN-ONES!
Think about that for a moment. Eleven. And it was his first time on the green too! :rolleyes:
Seriously: that is a true story. Ask any North Korean.
Also you might want to show some proof about these astoundingly imaginative ways of torturing people with acid (or what not) that Saddam uses.
I bet every Iraqi citizen can top that with stories of dear Mr. Bush.
Did you know Bush sleeps with pythons to which he feeds a little muslim boy every morning? Yeah, it's true. :rolleyes:
You think the US media tells you things exactly how they really happened? Naturally Saddam uses the same method; every single bomb you drop in Iraq hits nothing but innocent women & children.
Imagine if the tables were turned. Iraq being the superpower and you being the ones with a disliked president. That would suck, huh?
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Imagine if the tables were turned. Iraq being the superpower and you being the ones with a disliked president. That would suck, huh?
If. If. If. IF!
A lot of things will suck when the word IF is used! So whats your point!It would suck if a guy shot me in the leg right now.
America is doing what needs to be done. America has been trying to resolve this peacefully for a long while, but they won't cooperate.
Originally posted by Father Torque
ep2 you are a selfish brat , Whining and complaining, you are an inmature selfish person. , moan about YOURSELF.
War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.
whining about how they might die. you were a whimpy selfish person.
-Father Torque
This is the 1rst time i have ever done this and hop it's the last.
father torgue I have reported you to the moderators for violation of the the 1rst rule of conduct forum:
Rules
1. You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board. People may not be insulted just because their opinion differs from your own. Flaming includes calling people names,
Thomas Jefferson said, if you are angry count to ten before you speak, if you are very angry count to 100.
Get a grip junior.
POST SCRIPT: I have an idea lets settle this with some TEAM FFA, we all know on which side we would be on.
Originally posted by Father Torque
Well Luc Solar. I am gonna say this in a nice way since you stated your opinion in a nice manner.
I'm sick and tired of people telling us that they're going out of their damn way to be nice when adressing us. Thanks a f*cking lot.
We are free to have any religion we want.
And Europe isn't? India isn't? Japan isn't? Russia isn't? Brazil isn't? Nigeria isn't?
Many other countries have that right too.
Thank you. What was your point again?
We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers.
The Spanish civil war. The French revolution. Tibet vs China. Iran vs Iraq. Scotland vs England. England vs France. Etc etc.
And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things.
I'll ask you this: Are you implying that we, the Eurotrash, do somehow not possess these qualities? Are you implying that you have these qualities in greater amount than we?
Are you?
What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb.
Don't talk about something you nothing about.
FYI, your country's depression dragged the rest of the world with it. Unemployment rates in Europe were as yours. Germany had it piss poor - in fact, worse than you.
We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries.
Pride is not a quality in my eyes. Humility is, on the other hand.
As for your money, your country is in such a huge debt, it's only a matter of time before OPEC sees the true value of the dollar.
Your position of super power is only going to last you another 50 years. Then, show's over.
We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years.
Rome was "great" only because it had a huge amount of conquered territory. They took slaves wherever they went. Living in the Roman Empire, for the 80% of the poor population, was hell. Is this how you want to be remembered?
It is not our war but we play a major part in it.
Hell yes it's your war. Unless you respect the UN security council.
But I doubt that.
Originally posted by Father Torque
ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person.
It's a bit funny, really, that a guy show his immatureness by complaining about another person's immatureness. Now, even though I don't like ep2anakin's views on guns, I will still tell you that anyone coming with personal insults, like you, are not fit for debating at this forum.
They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american.
Why the helheim is dying being a good American? If I ruled a country, I would defidently prefer the inhabitans to live...and why do you become a hero when killing others? That's what war is all about: Killing others. It's nothing glorious about it, it's just misery. War sucks.
you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen.
Right...:rolleyes: ... it's not like it's the end of the world if we don't attack him, saying that is sligthly ignorant.
Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it.
Do you know why they are proud of it? It has nothing to do with evilness, it's just because they hate USA. And after 9/11, USA has done nothing but fuelling that hate.
. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level.
Take your sweet time and read some of our posts, k?
Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war.
I'm not christian myself, but it's a bit funny that it's often the christians who are the first to don't give a damn about anything Jesus said.
War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.
Can you please anwer me something? What is murder if it isn't killing others? Perhaps "murder" is another name of an English tea pot or something :rolleyes:
and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds.
...says the person who can't spell and says the population in USA is 600+ million.
They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be
Does it require stong mental ability to shoot at others? I belive that the ones who doesn't are stronger mentally.
America had to fight a great war against the British army in the 1770's.
But would you have managed it without the French? Doubtfully.
Honer, Bravery, and freedom are all the qualities of America.
Bravery?? *snorts*
We were brave in the 1770's to stand up to a massive and outnumbering army of trained, armed, and nicely treeted soldiers.
With great help from the French, that is. Don't belive you fought the war alone.
And i dont thin kyou realize how important these qualities are too us. We are proud of these things. Also Bravery.
Let's see: Afraid of Saddam. Afraid of terrorists. Afraid of indians (you used to be). Afraid of loosing your freedom. Afraid of your fellow americans (that's why you have guns). Afraid of communists. The list goes on and on.
I dont know if you Euoropeans, or wherever youre from care very much. But those 2 towers were like Egypts pyrimids, Frances' Eifel Tower, Pisa Leaning tower of Pisa, Australlias Great Barrier Reef, China Great Wall, South Americas great Amazon, Canadas National Tower in Toronto. These are all important landmarks.
But most of these landmarks you mention are important historical landmarks too.
3000 fellow americans were killed how would you fell if 3000 of youre people died 1 including your best friends grandparents.
It would be sad. But two wrongs don't make one right.
What about Americas great depression in 1929. People had to be brave, they had to live on the street, eat bread 1 time a day. They were dirt poor. But look at all these other countries did they help us in anyway No, they werent honorable they were the ones being arrogant, fat and dumb
It is obvious that you don't know much about it. Europe suffered as bad as USA in this crisis, and they were already poor after WW1, especially Germany.
Then soon following Pearl Harber 2000+ are killed. We had to send soldiers into Japan. On the frontline, they knew they would die. You dont thin kthey were brave, you have a nother thing coming.
1. The attack at Pearl Harbour was a preventing strike.
2. USA never sent many soliders in Japan. They nuked two of their cities instead. Talk about brave :rolleyes:
Now all im trying to say is that other countries should stop bugging on us.
Why doesn't other countries have a right to critizise?
No offense but America is the the greatest country in the world. We have the money, technology, military, and pride then most other countries.
Have you lived in other countries? Thought not. Don't talk about the things you do not know.
you guys need to stop bugging us and try to support our decision.
Why do we have to support your decision if we belive it's wrong?
You would be of more help if you supported our and UN troops instead of whinning and groning about them dying. it was there decision to join and they know the consequinces. They chose to fight for freedom. Honor. And Liberty.
I ask you again: Why do we have to support your decision if we belive it's wrong? And they fight for death, suffering and hate anyway.
We are just like Rome was they were great for thousands of years.
Dozed off in your history classes, have yeh?
EDIT: I just saw something on the nes. Venders arent gonna sell french fries anymore, they are gonna be freedom fries. I am not bying anything french for awhile they are being p****'s.
How very childish of you. So you belive they are "p****'s" just because they do not agree with you?
Also Bush senior never did that stuff about abbandoning Iraqians. Thats just a made up rumor that you and your little friends made up to make people beleive in crap like that.
If you don't know anything about that case anyway, why are you assuming those things?
In some places in Asia they cut of your hands for eating gum, and if you litter they will cut of your ear
False.
Thats right. He doesn't try to impress people or agree to whatever they say because he doesn't want them to hate him. He does what he thinks is right and I respect him for that.
A president is a sort of representative of the people. And if he does not care about what the people say, that says only one things: He's acting on personal matters.
This is in response to those who hate America or Bush so it seems and they actually live in this country. Show some respect please. You have to admit, that guy has some balls to do what hes doing right now. He's going against the wishes of over half the world. I would bet my life that none of you could do that against such odds. So show a little respect.
The line is short between bravery and foolishness. What scares me most is that you will support him if he fails. I mean, here you got a guy who uses half his time on doing one thing. Everyone else think that thing is a real stupid thing to do, and tells him to not doing it. But he does it anyway, and everyone sees that it really was a dumb thing to do, and millions gets killed for nothing. I don't understand how you can support him then. It's not like he knows better than you or me.
This "war" has grown over the fact that Iraq may have nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction, its grown to encompass the fact that he is cruel, heartless and a dictator by all means. Do you know some of his methods for testing his regime's loyalty? He sends masked men dressed in the clothes that his enemies wear, put the man at gunpoint and ask one simple question. "Are you with us?" If by fear the guys says "Yes" thinking that its Saddam's enemies talking, they shoot him. He also has "acid drip" rooms in which slow drops of acid drop down and the person has to keep constantly moving back and forth. Soon they get tired collapse and die by acid.
Right. I completely understand. Saddam is an evil, sadistic, bug-like alien from Uranus and he is preparing the world for being invaded by evil martians, and he's eating family members for dinner and make dinner plates out of eyes of captured Kurds while he's enjoying the pain yells of the millions of people being tortured in his bedroom. And he likes to fly to USA in the night to drink the blood of small kids and afterwards he pulls all their lims off and hangs them in his throphy room in Bagdhad.
Originally posted by Vestril
You know what would be really funny? If Saddam abdicated and walked away, said 'I'm tired of this, I will let America install a new government providing it gives me amnesty for any perciveced crimes I have commited' handed over the country, and Bush said 'well ok' took his troops and left.
No, here's something that's even more funny.
What if Saddam complied and handed over every single biochemical facility, every single WMD warhead and fufilled every single paragraph of the 1441.
Now that the legal cassus belli had been negated completely - would USA still go to war?
I've a strong feeling they would, for some reason.
The trouble with being the most powerful country in the world, is that other nations tend to be critical...if Finland...for example...were in the hot seat, I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't be doing much better than America.
No, probably not, but we'd still correct them. We'd still point out the flaws in their foreign policy. Don't think the rest of the world is above such criticism.
I'm sick of the argument that goes: "Oh, think of poor Bush, having the media spotlight on his face all the time." "Just because we're the superpower, everyone hates us!". "
I hate this, to put it bluntly. USA screws up, the rest of the world gets furious because your President's actions carry a lot of weight behind them. And you have a habit of making pretty bold moves, such as making shady dealings with corrupt governments and seeing phantom menaces everywhere.
Think of past dominant empire's foreign policies, have they ever been very good?
No, but you'd think such nations would learn with time. This is the 21st century after all, not the 18th.
err, freedom fries...I was thinking liberty cabbage...(which was real...)
Freedom fries is just the start. Have you heard the news about how your government is going to digging up dead soldiers in the mass burials in France, and ship them back home for a "proper military burial" as France has apparently "forgotten everything about honour in war." Next thing you know, they're going to surgically remove New Jersey from the mainland, and send the statue of Liberty (which was a present from France) back home.
This is quite possibly the worst load of horsedung I've ever heard USA sling out in my lifetime. Suddenly, France is the traitor because they're going to use their veto power in the security council. France is apparently preventing the UN from doing what it was made to do in the first place.
Bullsh*t. France has used their veto power a total of 6 times since WW2. USA has used it a whopping 70 times. 38 of those were in relation to Israel breaking several UN resolutions - all of the time it was 14 members proposing to take action against Israel's attrocities, while USA as the single member used their veto power in defiance of Israel's actions.
I can only ask: Why is it that Israel's crimes and oversteppings of UN resolutions can go unpunished, with USA actually defending them as the single UN member, while that same superpower screams "Traitor!" now, when France and Russia decides to use their veto power against this silly war. It's ridiculous, and it should appear ridiculous to anyone who knows these facts.
As for Saddam being a threat, that's pathetically unreal. We all know Saddam can't touch anything with those missiles he has. He's not going to, because the middle east is going to f*ck him sideways if he ever steps over the line again. Iraq has been left crippled since Gulf War 1. Spain or France could take him out (with losses, granted).
Now, the only thing that remains is his supposed connection to terror groups. Modern middle eastern terror cells are deeply fundementalistic. Iraq is the most secular country, even more secular than the US. Al qaeda hates Saddam's guts for his irreligious lifestyle. Lastly, to claim that Saddam is out to get you is rabidly insane - USA f*cking helped him on numerous occasions, he's asked for a debate with Bush (which he turned down) and he's disarming as we speak. As the middle east area is anything but monolithic evil, he's not going to team up with his enemies anymore than France is cooperating with Hisbola to hit "The great American enemy".
While Bush is out making war, he's turning attention away from the faltering economy in his hinterland. This war is going to attract so much media attention that only an impending big ass asteroid impact is going to everyone's eyes off of Iraq. And even then, they'll probably get equal coverage.
Y'love tha' picture, dontcha boa?! :p
Ship it to the senate, if it must.
Yep, off to the senate, and people, NO MORE FLAMING OR ELSE!. :)
this is exactlt what happend when i started a thread on a survey on how smart americans are...
http://www.themanipulation.com/thread-ugly.gif)
JM Qui-Gon Jinn would make a better U.S president then Bush ever will:D
thank god for someone saying all that.... i share a lot of your opinions but im too lazy to type all that....lol
i want to know something though.... what does Americans think of 'us' Euoropeans...?
i think some Americans kind of look down on us and think were some how not very smart just becuase we dont want war.... is that true? i know a lot of you dont have any problems with Euoropeans:) dont worry i dont mean you guys
and can someone give me a reason why to support Bush actions? i mean other then what Reborn said...
Originally posted by SupremePain
JM Qui-Gon Jinn would make a better U.S president then Bush ever will:D
:thumbsup:
But my vote would go to C'jais.
Originally posted by TheHobGoblin
First this isn't "Bash the president central!" I'm supporting him, so this is for the Bush supporters.
Okay, go make a "Bash the USA/President" thread somewhere else! This thread is for his supporters, not :sigh: people who would rather point out faults and insult the USA and Bush.
Lets get on topic!
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Lets get on topic!
Actually, this is on topic.
We're pointing out why there's no need to support your president. Unless you refute our arguments, you really have no case of supporting him, unless we're talking blind patriotism.
This thread is made for comments about why the people who support him do. Its is clearly stated in the threadstarters first post.
If you want to post stuff about why we should not support him, that is off topic. Make another thread and do it there.
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq. He may not be the smartest man alive, but he's surrounded himself with an intelligent cabinet and advisors who all konw what they're doing. So maybe Iraq is actually more of a threat than any of us have been lead to believe? It's possible.
And JMQuiGon, since your country seems to be so amazingly perfect, perhaps you could use your perfection to fix my country. I would certainly appreciate it.
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
.....many people will die, and you support that? do you have anyone close to you in the military? in the frontlines? i do, and i do NOT want this war to happen, ..... sure we'll win, but not w/o the cost of young lives.
.....our MILITARY is brave for actually putting up w/those orders, not the people who sit on their asses at home saying "LET'S GO TO WAR I'M READY!"
also, if bush is so smart and great, why is he gonna fund iraq troops for rebuilding when oil is so high and he could make prices lower for us, help out his own country or the one we just beat the hell out of, that's also one of my problems w/him
I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.
Originally posted by XWING5
I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.
Well Xwing, yes of course as an active duty soldier you must support his/her commander in chief. But those of us who are civilians are actually required to question everything our president does. If he is doing the right thing he can handle the spotlight.
But I will say this about a soldiers responsibility to his duty:
You are required to follow all orders given to you as long as they are legal. BUT, you also have a responsibility NOT to follow orders if they are illegal. If you are ordered to perform an illegal or imoral act and do it, and say well its not my fault, I was just following orders. You have failed your duty to your country, following orders has never meant blind obedience.
I hope you won't have to go but if you do I hope you and your friends can return home to your families safely, and SOON :)
Originally posted by griff38
But I will say this about a soldiers responsibility to his duty:
You are required to follow all orders given to you as long as they are legal. BUT, you also have a responsibility NOT to follow orders if they are illegal. If you are ordered to perform an illegal or imoral act and do it, and say well its not my fault, I was just following orders. You have failed your duty to your country, following orders has never meant blind obedience.
You are absolutely right, Griff, there are rules to following orders. The only thing I had an objection to was someone suggesting that we were "putting up with orders." But yes, we do indeed have a responsibility to say no if an order calls for us to do something illegal. And thanks for the best wishes. I probably won't be on a plane overseas anytime real soon, but I do wish all the best to those who are already there (I wish I could be there with them) :luke:
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Right. I completely understand. Saddam is an evil, sadistic, bug-like alien from Uranus and he is preparing the world for being invaded by evil martians, and he's eating family members for dinner and make dinner plates out of eyes of captured Kurds while he's enjoying the pain yells of the millions of people being tortured in his bedroom. And he likes to fly to USA in the night to drink the blood of small kids and afterwards he pulls all their lims off and hangs them in his throphy room in Bagdhad.
I don't understand. Do you think that Saddam is kind and loving? The things I listed about him are fully true...
Originally posted by Luc SolarAlso you might want to show some proof about these astoundingly imaginative ways of torturing people with acid (or what not) that Saddam uses.
Well stuff has been found and there was even a special about it on tv. (It was the History Channel I believe)
Just so that there's no misunderstandings:
Nobody likes Saddam. He is obviously a more or less insane tyrant.
I've heard that at they serve him a luxurious meal in every room in his palace (one of the ~170 he happens to stay in) "just in case". He naturally only eats in one room which he randomly chooses. I don't know what they do with all the 37 meals that are left over..
That alone tells that he has a screw loose. :(
The point of my earlier posts was, however, that one should not consider the stuff that the media shows "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".
Besides, bombing the crap out of Iraq can not be justified with the argument of "Saddam is evil".
Most countries won't bomb others even though they might consider their leader dumb, scary, crazy or whatever.
I like the pressure that the world had put on Iraq. I'd love to see Saddam assassinated, even...no matter how inappropriate that might be. But that's not my choice, nor George's.
Right now Iraq needs to show new proof of destroying their missiles etc. every day. This is what everyone wanted, right? The current situation gets us closer day by day to accomplishing the goal of disarming Saddam.
...That is the goal, right? Not oil or some personal vendetta.
I don't think USA should bomb the crap out of a country simply because Saddam is a sneaky bastard who doesn't play the game of politics honourably. He is the last person who will suffer from any problems Iraq encounters. There will be meals waiting in every room in his palace not matter how badly the rest of the people are starving.
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Right now Iraq needs to show new proof of destroying their missiles etc. every day. This is what everyone wanted, right?
America is looking for Chemical Weapons. The missles we just came upon, so now they are destroying those, but the US is looking for chemical weapons
Not oil or some personal vendetta
The US never got the idea that the point of this war was for oil. America has better sources for oil than Iraq. If we attack Iraq, our goal is not to get their oil. The oil is just a "spoil of war"
Originally posted by ET Warrior
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq.
So you support him because you think he knows more than us? How would he be able to anyway? When one of the leading weapon inspectors says US intelligence is rubbish, you kind of lose confidence in it. And what about China, Germany, Russia and France? Why do you belive they know less than Bush?
So maybe Iraq is actually more of a threat than any of us have been lead to believe? It's possible.
Possible, but unlikely.
And JMQuiGon, since your country seems to be so amazingly perfect, perhaps you could use your perfection to fix my country.
Never said my country is perfect, because it isn't. A lot of things in politics are pretty dumb, especially FrP, wich luckily seems to get less support right now. But the reason on why I don't bash Norwegian politics is that no one here really cares about it.
America is looking for Chemical Weapons. The missles we just came upon, so now they are destroying those, but the US is looking for chemical weapons
Precisely. They are looking for them. They haven't found anything yet.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Precisely. They are looking for them. They haven't found anything yet.
:rolleyes:
We have found enough evidence to know Saddam had chemical weapons. He used them on his own people. Now when we ask him if he still has chemical weapons, he either refuses to answer or hide away.
Originally posted by ckcsaber
:rolleyes:
We have found enough evidence to know Saddam had chemical weapons.
1. How can you know they have found enough evidence?
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries?
From the UN inspections, Iraq may have stockpiled more than 600 metric tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, VX and sarin.
Where did all of this go?? It must be still there. Also from US satellites, we have confirmed that they have "mobile chemical labs". Also, why do most of their "scientists" refuse to talk, and when they do talk, we have evidence that they lied.
This all points to one thing, that Iraq has chemical weapons. They refused to cooperate, for the safety of human lives. The US MUST do something