Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries?
Because we don't like them :D
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Where did all of this go?? It must be still there.
"You assume too much" -Padme Amidala, TPM.
Also from US satellites, we have confirmed that they have "mobile chemical labs".
No one's really taking US intelligence serious. You haven't confirmed anything, because of the simple reason that they could be anything, and not nessisarily making of chemical weapons.
Also, why do most of their "scientists" refuse to talk, and when they do talk, we have evidence that they lied.
What evidence? Perhaps you could source that?
This all points to one thing, that Iraq has chemical weapons.
"You assume too much" -Nute Gunray, TPM
Listen JM, the US is going to war. The US has enough evidence to support this war, and the US is going to stop Hussein.
Your dislike for America is merely blinding you
Originally posted by ckcsaber
Listen JM, the US is going to war.
Unfortunatly, yes.
The US has enough evidence to support this war,
Then why won't they show it? Please tell me that.
and the US is going to stop Hussein.
Stop Hussein from what?
Your unconditional trust to your president is merely blinding you.
Bush is a wimp but he knows what is the right thing to do unlike FRANCE. I request a burning french flag emoticon.
:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:
Its only not evidence since you wont accept it, it truly is the right thing to do and you are morons for stalling it. Long live USA :usa: DIE FRANCE!
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Bush is a wimp but he knows what is the right thing to do unlike FRANCE. I request a burning french flag emoticon.
:usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa: :usa:
Its only not evidence since you wont accept it, it truly is the right thing to do and you are morons for stalling it. Long live USA :usa: DIE FRANCE!
Good job, CagedCrado, you have now become the strongest canidate for the LF Imatureness Price 2003.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Good job, CagedCrado, you have now become the strongest canidate for the LF Imatureness Price 2003. dont you meant he LF Idiocy Prize? cuz if so then i second the nomination.
The anti war bs is just a ploy by europeans who gave iraq something or own an oil field there and they dont want us to find it. The US anti war protest bs is the democratic party and its long lengths of stupid things that really help nobody and greatly supress minorities. Im just stating the other side of the story and you dont like it. I can be patriotic and support my country as i know going to war with iraq is the right thing to do and i KNOW that we should. I know that there isnt any proof of saddams weapons but he has gassed his own people and is a threat to the region. He is an insane lunatic. Saddam hussein is not a good person, has no ideas of morals and cannot be trusted. Margaret Thatcher who was one prime minister of england said he couldnt be trusted.
Bush cant be trusted either( the US for that matter) the US government has done some bad crap too. my grandfather was ordered to fire upon his own troops. by the president. in the gulf war my uncle recieved the same order. they both disobeyed the order and were sent to trial after the trial was dismissed they were sworn to secrecy but of course with this big of info who would be silent my uncle was also ordered to fire mortars into civilian inhabited areas. i saw videos his friend took while the war was going on so i know what war looks like. the civilian kills totally outweighed the military kills. many of the civilians killed (by american troops) were women and children. not to mention women were raped and beaten by many military troops and members these troops werent even sent to a trial. and you say that america is good and just. you sir are the ****ing idiot. you are ignorant you are a blubbering oaf who doesnt even deserve the right to free speech its people like you that make this world hell.
Bush seems to be one of the nicest politicians that i have ever seen. He truly is a wimp but he is trying to do the right thing. Hes not thinking of just himself like others are, a war with iraq will liberate millions of people, i know atleast 6 million people in israel will live in assurance that they wont get gassed. Not to mention kurds and other people who are raped, beaten, torchered, and live in fear of saddam in iraq. We need to atleast disarm and stop saddam from hurting his own people. Also you realize that if saddam gassed people using a large amount of gas or used a nuclear weapon, that the affects of the weapon could be blown on the wind to areas in europe and asia, possibly the united states. Saddam has the power to kill millions, no billions. He has enough gas to kill everyone in the entire world. If thats not reason enough to stop him in any way possible (even war), then i dont know what could possibly make you go to war. I know people who fought in world war two and korea, and they think it is the right thing to do. (theyve seen it before, what waiting can do... Anyone know Hitler?)
Originally posted by C'jais
Actually, this is on topic.
We're pointing out why there's no need to support your president. Unless you refute our arguments, you really have no case of supporting him, unless we're talking blind patriotism.
Now C'Jais. Im not being rude, but i would like to say shut the h*** up. Your being an uptight jerk. Everything that we Bush supporters say you always have some answer that half that time you make up as you go. Your saying all these bad points about my post and half of them are completely random and false. And to Qui Gon i made a mistake. There are 300,000,000 million people in the US. I was thinking of something else. Also im not gonna sit here and listen to all youre negative bull crud C'Jais. Half of youre statistics have been proved wrong by the CIA website. Dont go thinking that all youre facts are correct because they arent correct. This greta deppresion stuff you say affected the whole world is correct, but a trust worthy website states that the great depression barely affected France and many neighboring countries. So in political terms youre wrong. Also JM Qui Gon you want evidence. How bout the tapes of Sadam killing innocent christians and 17 empty warheads. Also a great comment my dad made. Many countries did not believe that Hitler was massacering thousands of jews. They thought the us was just trying to cause major problems. Look what happened when countries like France found this out they were mortified. So USA isnt always trying to cause major problems. The same thing is happening right now. Why is Tony Blaire supporting us. Because he knows what has happened with Sadam that most of you wouldnt even think of having happen. Also the famous talk show host Micheal Savage is showing on his show the uncut videos of Sadam's killing habbits. They are horriblw and grusom. Now all you non USA people you have no clue how we feel about 9/11. Also C'Jais why are you saying that we say no ther country is good. I know of countries that have better things than we do, but i did not mention them, dont get me wrong, i think america is pretty crappy right now. And that we have a round a $3 trillion (i think:p)debt. Also back to Qui Gons statement of the time period of Rome. The story of Romulus and Remus dates back to 745 BC. Then in 1495 the seljuk turks invaded and destroyed the last part of the 2 roman empires Constantinople. Do the math 1000-745 then the total +1495. You get somewhere around 1700. Hmmmmm more than 1000 years. Hows do ya like that. And Wui Gon again. We show trust to Bush, because he is a great man, of intellegence. Even though he has rough time with spelling you cant tell me that he is a a stupid idiot and he doesnt know wht he is doing. thats bull crud. And JM youre the one saying that i say other countries are stupid and dumb look back at your post to ckc. You said no one trusts america how do you know give me evidence. O holy hipocrite. And JM will there ever be enough evidence to convince you or are you gonna always thin kthat there is not enough? And JM again you said we havent found any chemical evidnece. What in the heck are 17 empty warheads are doing lying around in Iraq, do you think some teens just found empty warheads and put them in Iraq soil for fun:rolleyes: . You really gotta thin kabout your facts before you go blurting about how great and perfect your country is. i know you stated that thats not true but you keep on going on to the fact that it is perfect. Imagine being a president you would pee in your pants if you had this tough decision. Also the bible states that war is not murder, but murder is war. Also i suggest that you guys read the bible becaus eyou obviously have a problem with trust. And JM again you keep on saying that im immature, well if i am how come i can write this much about my opinion at the age 12. I cleary thin kno one here is inmature, and i think everyone is fit to debate here, and you ahve position to say that they cant. Please send me a pic of your faces when you find out that Sadam does have weapons of mass destruction. You will then come to think that America isnt making this stuff up. We are being honest. And why is it so bad to boast about our nations qualities. It is our right as humans to be thankful for what are ancestors did to give us freedom. And i do recognize that French forces did play a major role in the the 1770's especially at the war of gettysburg. I never said they didnt you jsut assumed. And yes to the person who mentioned that this should be a bush supporters only thread. Look at the thread title. Bush my president. Not Bush yes or no. And how come it seems that all you non bush people can never come up with a good arguement, you are always saying WHY WHY WHY. Cant you guys have a good counter arguement. Its like im getting feed back from a 7 year old. You always say. Where is the evidence, why dou you trust him, cant you state your opinion in a way that doesnt include the word where or why in every sentence. I dont know if its becaus eyou yourselves are to inmature to right write something worth reading or you just dont have the skill to write a political issue reply. Im not flaming anyone here, and i plan not to. If you totally hate my guts and think im a stupid twit. PM me and i will gladly debate with you. Please in the future non-bush people dont always come to the conclusion that we are lying . Because we arent and there would be no point. Also stop saying that bush is stupid and dumb. You cant have these qualities and become a president. It doesnt work like that. And all you people who think C'Jais should run for president even if youre just kidding. Call me when you reach the point in your life when reality smacks you over the head with a stick. C'Jais is a great debater, but no offense to C' Jais he would be a horrible president. He doesnt thin kamerica has bravery honor and liberty in itself. Any president who doesnt beleive america has these qualities should go back to where they came from and be a presidnet there. because i assure you he would only get votes form pot heads and people who vote just for kicks. A small majority of the American vote. And possibley you people who have not yet experienced realities left hook. Be safe, and dont be stupid
-Father Torque
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Bush seems to be one of the nicest politicians that i have ever seen. He truly is a wimp but he is trying to do the right thing. Hes not thinking of just himself like others are, a war with iraq will liberate millions of people, i know atleast 6 million people in israel will live in assurance that they wont get gassed. Not to mention kurds and other people who are raped, beaten, torchered, and live in fear of saddam in iraq. We need to atleast disarm and stop saddam from hurting his own people. Also you realize that if saddam gassed people using a large amount of gas or used a nuclear weapon, that the affects of the weapon could be blown on the wind to areas in europe and asia, possibly the united states. Saddam has the power to kill millions, no billions. He has enough gas to kill everyone in the entire world. If thats not reason enough to stop him in any way possible (even war), then i dont know what could possibly make you go to war. I know people who fought in world war two and korea, and they think it is the right thing to do. (theyve seen it before, what waiting can do... Anyone know Hitler?) first of all he doesnt have that kind of weapon power. second he doesnt have nuclear capability. he may have nuclear facilities but none powerful enough to even make a megaton a bomb. third i doubt you even care about israels people. you didnt seem to show up when the palestine war started (it was only a few months ago).
I've been sticking to my Subscribed Threads and missed this one for a couple of days. I haven't yet waded through the several pages of posts, but I had to stop at yours.
Originally posted by Father Torque
"There is no evidence on any weapons in Iraq. 17 empty nuclear warheads found. Ring a bell in yo ear people. You cant sit here and tell me that some idiots from who nows where found empty warheads and his them in Iraq.
They were warheads. They were not designated as nuclear. If anything, they were capable of carrying the type of chemical weapons that about 16 other nations have in their arsenals.
Originally posted by Father Torque
Look at you guys you sit at your computer all day at a forum which will never have you succed to anything. You have no responsiblity.
Definately not true in my case. I wish it were. I've a feeling that statement rings true in less forum members than you believe.
Originally posted by Father Torque
He has to handle Millions of people. Do you think he wants war.
Yes. For him it appears to be ego. His place in history. Setting an historical precedence that will be revered for all time.
Originally posted by Father Torque
And on 9/11. What does this crap mean. Oh he doesnt care about anything woe is me, he is a horrible president because he cant say, "w".
Bush continually evokes 9/11 to justify his actions. This dishonors the lives lost and their survivors. Bush has squandered away the good will given to us by the rest of the world that was sympathetic to us after the attack. From my perspective, that's a betrayal.
Originally posted by Father Torque
But when ya think about it, how did we become a nation. Britan didnt just say ok sure that cool. There was WAR.
And after we secured the Colonies from our former King who didn't have the foresight to place a strong military in the New World, we turned to the indigenous people whom we conquered and then we built a nation. A great one. What's done is done, but we have to keep this in mind as we trod forth.
Originally posted by Father Torque
And now is not the time to win with words because words dont work in the real world.
Words go a long way to making change. Especially if they are said in unison by enough people. Words can educate and invigorate. Words can aggitate and irritate as well. Words are essential to getting what we want in a democratic-republic.
Originally posted by Father Torque
You have to go through pain sometimes to get what you want. Also would you rather have the USA die and have your 2 friends live or have America 600+ million people live and have 2 friends risk there lives. Do the math i hope you get the right answer.
The United States of America is NOT at risk. Saddam has NO nuclear weapons. Even if he had couple, he would have no way to deliver it nor would he chance it. The same applies to the chemical weapons he is sure to have. If he utilized them, then the world would be justified in dealing with him. This should've been done the last times he used them, which weren't even during the last decade or two, but the world chose not to do so.
Originally posted by Father Torque
He is an impecable president and i dont think ANYONE can give me an INTELEGENT reason on why he is a bad president.
1) He lied to the citizens of Texas. I voted for him for governor because he stated in the campaign that he intended to be governor not a presidential candidate. A few months later, it came out that much of his gubanatorial campaign money came from the Calif. Republican Party. Shortly after that, he announced his candidacy for President.
2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.
3) The entire world was behind the United States and our decision to deal with the Taliban. We lost nearly all of that world support with the unilateral decision of the Bush administration to invade Iraq
4) The U.S. economy is tanking. Billions of dollars will have to be spent on a war with Iraq in addition to the billions already spent. Billions, if not trillions, of dollars will be needed to rebuild Iraq. European nations are not likely to pitch in if they don't agree to invade.
5) The Bush administration's own advisors in the State Department have indicated that establishment of a democracy in Iraq is an unlikely and unrealistic prospect. Yet, Bush drives forward with his desire to change the regime.
6) The precedent of Pre-emptive war will enable other countries to attack each other because they feel threatened.
7) The United States squashed a country (Afganistan) from only the air. This is unequaled power that make the rest of the world nervous. A pre-emptive invasion, one that doesn't catch Saddam in the act of atrocity, will instill fear in many throughout the world. Some will react as scared people do... they will lash out.
8) Bush referred to North Korea as a "regional problem" instead of a world problem. Ironically, N. Korea possesses the technology to hit the western, possibly the mid-western, United States with a missile. This of course means that any of a dozen or so friendly countries and U.S. interests are vunerable as well.
9) Every indication is that Bush's referrence to N. Korea as an "axis of evil" began the negative posture they've taken as a response. In essence, they took that statement to mean "you're next."
10) As an insider and part owner of Harken Energy Corp., Bush failed to disclose a significant sale of stock in a timely manner to the SEC. A no-no that even amateur stock traders would avoid. Bush claimed it was an oversight. It was definately that or intentional. I say this, if intentional it proves he's crooked. If an oversight, it proves he's incompetent.
No President is perfect. There are always faults. But to not have a cabinet balance, or allow the other branches to balance, his faults is betrayal to the American people. This is our country and he works for us. Yet he continually speaks of "his decision" to go to war and "my government" in his speaches. He condemns the voice of the people by stating that the protests against unneeded war are "insignificant."
Bush is far from "impecable." That much is fact. He's incompetent. That much is opinion, but I predict the next election will bear that out to be true.
Originally posted by Father Torque
If no war. Sadam will nuke us all kill 6 billion people and the earth will be no more.
This is far beyond his capability. It's even far beyond the capability of Kim Jung Il, who has disclosed an active nuclear weapons program. India and Pakistan are far more dangerous due to their proximity to each other, their discontent with each other, and the instability of their governments. They have prolific nuclear weapons programs.
Originally posted by Father Torque
Are you willing to distor gods great creation for your benefit i hope not.
Man made the world the complex, competitive and hateful bubble of air in the galaxy. Not some undisclosed diety.
Originally posted by Father Torque
I would rather die than see 6 billion people die.
As would I. But that's not the issue in the question of Iraq. Much of the American public is being duped by a President that wants nothing more than to establish an aristocratic power base. We rebelled against that in the 1700's... we sure as hell don't need it again.
1. The united states cares plenty about israel.... we try to help them become peaceful with palestine and we support a palestinian state as well as israel living in peace, that would be a good thing for them.
2. Iraq does have that kind of power and they will have nuclear weapons. they had many thousands of gallons of chlorine gas, mustard gas and anthrax.
And they still do as theyve been making it, hiding it, and turning over old weapons.
Originally posted by CagedCrado
1. The united states cares plenty about israel.... we try to help them become peaceful with palestine and we support a palestinian state as well as israel living in peace, that would be a good thing for them.
2. Iraq does have that kind of power and they will have nuclear weapons. they had many thousands of gallons of chlorine gas, mustard gas and anthrax.
And they still do as theyve been making it, hiding it, and turning over old weapons. bull**** i have seen no evidence to support this. second ive seen videos and pictures of their ENTIRE nuclear facilities they dont have that kind of power. oh and if they did guess who taught them how to make that stuff. thats right AMERICA the "greatest" country in the world:rolleyes:
Originally posted by ckcsaber
America plans to take Iraq out completly. They will not leave Iraq behind with any form of retaliation.
There is no doubt as to the ability of the United States military in its ability to decimate the Iraqi military and civilian infrastructure. That can, and probably will, be done with a terrible swiftness.
But then what?
That's the problem with my fellow countrymen who just blindly support the Bush administration. Rather than think for themselves, they'd rather just buy into whatever seems easy. But that's the beauty of a good scam-artist. Bush can shuck and jive with the best and sell them on what he wants them to see.
He makes no mention of the fact that his own people are advising that replacing Saddam with a democratic leader is not realistic.
He makes no mention of the billions, possibly trillions, of dollars that will go into rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure.
He makes no mention of the ability to control whether oil will be represented by the dollar or the Euro by merely rebuilding and controlling the Iraqi Oilfields.
He makes no mention of the fact that Europe is unlikely to assist in financing the reconstruction of Iraq post-war.
He makes no mention of the fact that Iraq will have to be occupied for many, many years by the United States.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkinWalker
2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.
What could we have done. he knew there was tention between the US and Afghanistan. He had no clue though that they would bomb the two towers. If he knew it he would have done something. It basically sounds like you guys think he hates the world and its inhabbitants. That isnt true. Yes we could have boosted security, and what not. But the tradjedy would have still occured. Hundreds of Muslim lookin people travel on planes every day. We cant do searches on only Muslims because we would be charged for Racism:rolleyes: . They had box cutters. They could have put them in their shoes for heaven sake. President Bush had no way of stoping the attacks. He could havenotified the UN on the matter. If he really knew about the events or not. Im leaning toward the fact that he didnt know, since I tend to stick on the republican side of the arguements. I dont believe Bush would have done such a thing. How do you know that he knew, it could have been a rumor, like many other political matters. Also I have a question who would you have wanted to be president out of the 3 candidates. Not including John mcCain and that other guy. I certainly would not want Al Gore. Ralph Nader had some good and bad points. George Bush had good points and experience from his father George Bush Sr. Who I think was also a great president. What would Al Gore or Ralph Nader do in these situations.
And on the gas matter. Iraq is not a key supplier of oil right now. We are leaning on Texas for our oil suppy. We have many other allies that will help us with oil supply problems. We dont need Iraq's oil. But in these times of uncertanty, getting shipments of oil from them is not a good idea.
-Father Torque
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
war....
"Whoo-ah! What is it good for?.... Absolutely nothing!"
Originally posted by SkinWalker
That's the problem with my fellow countrymen who just blindly support the Bush administration. Rather than think for themselves, they'd rather just buy into whatever seems easy. But that's the beauty of a good scam-artist. Bush can shuck and jive with the best and sell them on what he wants them to see.
Well i have to disagree, you rfellow countrymen can think for themselves, they have the freedom too. Nobody is forcing them to believe anyone. Bush is saying join me or die, he is basically asking for support outside of the US. He has the right and authority to do so. So if youre countrymen cant thin kfor themselves then there are obviously problems with them. No offense:)
PS. Even though war is good for something. Its good for the winning country. I love that song byWAR its one of most favoritst bands:D
Originally posted by Father Torque
Bush is saying join me or die you are corrct sir.
FT makes a good point:)
Originally posted by InsaneSith
you are corrct sir.
FT makes a good point:)
Dammit you know i screwed up. I meant Bush isnt saying Join me or die. Ill get you back Insane:p
:D well i guess. but hes ok but i still dont like him. i just dont like his policies well except for the social security and plans for the elderly those are all that i like but you know why he made those right? cuz hes gettin old and he needs free plans for when hes outta the white house :)
Originally posted by SupremePain
ARRGGHHH! this is anoying i REALY dont hope this the typical americans opinion.... is it?
Obi-wan13 and I disagree (if memory serves correct) on the Iraq issue, but I didn't see anything "annoying" about his post. In spite of our disagreements, I have a large amount of respect for Obi because he doesn't stoop to the levels that some others tend to (including myself from time-to-time).
Obi-wan13 was right. The U.S. is a world power. We do have the right to be proud of our accomplishments. Most, if not all, nations of the world have made their mistakes in the past.... especially the U.S. and the U.K.
We've got to see past the nationalism, ethnocentrism and the emotion and see the logic.
Originally posted by ET Warrior
The thing that I dont think people seem to care about, is the fact that probably none of us know 1/100th of the stuff Bush knows about this war and Iraq.
Which could also be as effective an argument for not going to war. See an earlier post of mine about what Bush is not telling us.
You might not know 1/100th ... but I tend to think I'm getting more informed everyday. The more information I get, the less I like what I see. Perhaps I should've remained ignorant. Tell me.... is it bliss?
Originally posted by XWING5
I probably won't be on a plane overseas anytime real soon, but I do wish all the best to those who are already there (I wish I could be there with them) :luke:
When/if you go: keep the sand out of your m16 and your canteen full; Be mindful of the chemlight colored scorpions that like to get under rolled up cammo nets. Good luck and come home safe! Hoo-ah!
Originally posted by Father Torque
Originally posted by SkinWalker
2) It was confirmed that Bush knew about the likelihood of attacks by terrorist hijaking airliners to collide with buildings prior to 9-11-01. Little was done to prevent or deter this.
Originally posted by Father Torque
He had no clue though that they would bomb the two towers. Yes we could have boosted security, and what not. But the tradjedy would have still occured. ... How do you know that he knew, it could have been a rumor, like many other political matters.
I recall an installment of 60 Minutes in which a key, but former, FBI agent was interviewed. I don't remember the agent's name, but it's possible this memo (
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml) was his. Pay close attention to the agent's 8th observation... near the end of the paragraph. This of course isn't the only source, but it gives you the idea. There was also a press release, perhaps by Ashcroft, about what the various intellegence was regarding a possible attack.
Originally posted by Father Torque
And on the gas matter. Iraq is not a key supplier of oil right now.
True. They supply very little of our oil.
Originally posted by Father Torque
We are leaning on Texas for our oil suppy.
Not true. Texas oilfields are not nearly as productive as they once were. In fact, the only reason many of the wells are still in operation is because of recent innovations in drilling that allow driling horizontally across fissures.
Originally posted by Father Torque
We have many other allies that will help us with oil supply problems. We dont need Iraq's oil.
It's not their oil... it's the control of their oil sales. OPEC is about to switch to the Euro as a means to price oil.
http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2003/03/06/rtr899062.html)
This would have a profound effect upon the U.S. economy. It is also a motivation for controlling the Iraqi oil production as then they would surely hold to the dollar.
Insane: Your PM box is full.... Griff, yours was too ;p
Originally posted by Father Torque
Ya as i said early and you re-quoted. ep2 you are a selfish brat who thinks about 2 people who joined the army to save people unlike you who is sitting where you are. Whining and complaining to a bunch of people who think you are an inmature selfish person. Your opinion isnt even fun to argue about. Why do you thin kthey joined the army ep. Maybe they would rather die for our country instead of moan about YOURSELF. They would rather think about ohhh i may get shot in the chest, but i know im gonna die a hero and a great american. They would rather save 6.4 BILLION people. And wh yare you wuurying about 2. you should be worrying about the 6.4 BILLION people who will die if this war doesnt happen. You got to reach beyond your own world and think about others. Think about all those family's that lost members in 9/11. They were killed by these horrible people. Who ar proud of it. Imagine what they will do next if we dont rid of them. Now if i were like you non-bush people, i would atleast come up with a good excuse why we shouldnt go to war instead of cheesy, random, and totally fake stories about his intellegence level. Also all you people that say Jesus said Thou shalt not kill in the bible, doesnt pretain to anything about this war. It is completely different. War is not murder and to those of you who thin kit is, go back to pre school, because alot of you are acting like 3 year olds. Face up to it, nothing is changing his opinion and nothing will. So why dont you support your friends and send them letters instead of whining about how they might die. If they saw you writing this stuff they would think you were a whimpy selfish person. If they think war is so bad, tell them to resign. Dont make decisions for them. They are deffinrtly more strong mentally than you will ever hope to be
-Father Torque
yeah father torque you're cool :rolleyes:
how old are you? cuz i'm only 17, unable to join w/o parental consent, and i can tell you now, i wanna finish high school and my parents would NEVER co-sign for me to go in right now, i had planned on going in, still do, this war can/could have been avoided, i think i recall bush backing down from a debate w/sadaam? but he wants to kill him? hmm, interesting to me. you all call me a selfish brat who sits on my ass and complains, what the **** are YOU? everyone here complains about something, i complain about how people don't think everything through, i don't know what you guys complain about, don't care either, just so everyone knows that you do. how old is everyone here? you are hypocritical for saying alls i'm doing is sitting on my ass when i'm NOT ALLOWED to join and you are. one of my friends has call rights and the other can write letters, his mom JUST got a letter 2 days ago post-marked Feb. 11, we JUST found out his address or i woulda sent lots of them by now. how do you know what they'd think if they saw me writing this stuff? do you know them? what are their names? oh wait, you DON'T know SHlT about them so sit down and be quiet, they'd probably want all your addresses so they could beat the **** out of all of you who are so ready to send people you don't know to their deaths. you will NEVER EVER get rid of people who are proud to die for what they believe in, you'd have to wipe out entire countries to do that. revenge won't do anything for the families of 9/11, it will only create more sorrow in this country, because even MORE people will die and it will NOT bring anyone back from the dead, this war could have been avoided but they decided to do it, for reasons god only knows.
lots of you say "quit worrying about yourself you selfish brat" "our soldiers are brave" i agree that THEY are, but YOU are not, no one here has mentioned anything about joining the military except Ratmjedi and myself, and you have the nerve to support war and criticize those who don't want it when you'll be safe at home typing on your computer for the rest of your lives while others are dying for you so you can feel proud about being an american, you are all so stupid "you'd rather have your 2 friends live than 6.4 BILLION other people?" if we don't go to war, nobody in the military would die and we could resolve this by TALKING, and NOBODY would die, how does that sound? cuz you are all so ready to criticize that you don't ever think outside of the box, my friends are in the marines but so are many others (something around 74,000) and if they live cuz we don't go to war that means that the others will to cuz why? we WOULD'NT have gone to war, what's to say that when we win all these attacks on america will stop? what's to say that they don't hit harder because of it? one reason they attack us is because they don't like the way we interfere with other countries affairs, now i have a strong feeling it will only get worse, i am thinking about everyone, i'm not being selfish in any way, well, yes i am, i want americans to live so i'm a selfish brat:rolleyes:, think more before you type, go ahead and criticize me more, i'll only keep posting my opinions and feelings and you'll never change my mind, and your comments about calling me a brat cuz i complain about people might die are hypocritical, why can i not want people to die when you can all complain about games, parents, and other little things in life freely?
p.s.- you can't resign from the military when you're signed in for 4 years, that's the minimum that they HAVE to be in, they can only get out on medical now, shows that YOU know a LOT about the military huh :rollseyes: whoever said it, can't remember
Originally posted by XWING5
I am 27, in the Army (Airborne!), and many of my friends are already there or about to go. And I support the war, as do my friends who are there. As a soldier you accept the fact that you are putting your life on the line for the greater good, if you want to call it that. No one wants anyone to die, but we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't to save many more lives in the future. We aren't "putting up with orders." In fact, the level of respect that soldiers have for GW as compared to clinton is amazing. And just so you know, the majority of our oil does not come from Iraq.
my friends are a paratrooper and heavy machinegunner, the paratrooper is in kuwait and the HM is in baghdad. first off, i support the military, i do NOT support the war though. second, i didn't say that iraq supplied the majority of our oil, i only said that instead of giving money to iraqi soldiers after the war to rebuild, bush or whoever is doing it, should use it to help their own country instead of the one we just beat the hell out of. good luck if you go over or if you are already over, make your friends and family happy by coming back alive. the opinion and views of military personell vs. civilian are and should be different. you guys are trained to kill and know that you might have to if told to, and you accept that you might die. it's in the job description, i support the people who are actually doing the dirty work and wish them all well, but i ABSOLUTELY HATE those who say "let's go kick their asses!" and sit around waiting for the BRAVE people to get their job done when they have every opportunity to join but choose not to "just cuz" or give some pathetic retarded reason, the real one: they don't wanna die or put up w/authority. i don't know what else to say w/o repeating myself so i'll stop now, good luck to you and your buddies.
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
... think more before you type,...
I think you both need to think before you type (and maybe hit the enter key once in while so the typing is easier to read ;) ).
There's been a lot of name calling and foul language in this thread... I know we all can become heated, including myself, but that kind of thing does little for your side of a debate. Whichever side it is.
I don't really care so much whether people agree, I enjoy the debate, which is the point of the Senate Chambers. Debating an issue forces me to learn both sides of the issue. At times, particularly on intellectual issues, I even change my mind. There's a good part of me that sees reason and just cause to invade Iraq. It's the overwhelming opposition, globally and domestically, that makes me rethink it.
I propose that we all agree to remain civil for the remainder of the thread. I'd also ask that the mods not edit what has happened, but rather leave it as a monument to what we can become should we not adhere to the rules. The rules that preclude a poster from flaming and defeating the auto-censor with modified profanity. We can get what you mean with the "*" substituting letters.
I'd also ask that the mods issue any warnings they see fit, but not ban anyone based upon posts prior to this one. Emotions, at times, get the best of us all.
If I've offended anyone personally, please accept my apologies and PM me if you have a problem with something I say.
Now... like the android said, "please continue the petty bickering. I find it intriguing." :D
Hey ep2, im sorry about all the stuff i said. I know its hard for i was just stressing my opinion. I know you dont want them to die. I dont want to be on bad terms with people here. Also i have always wanted to join the army. But i cant. Im 12:( . Best wishes to your friend. I still think we should have war. But i dont want your friends to die.
My regards
Father Torque
sorry skinwalker i agree that some (lots actually) of the stuff i say isn't thought out in the least, but it's hard to get a point across on a computer, because it shows NO emotion, and i get really angry sometimes because it's as if people are only thinking of ways to further their status in society w/little regard for everyone else, and i got asked in earlier posts to hit enter, but sometimes i forget
my point is, this war didn't/doesn't have to come. it was avoidable. i think skinwalker said it: bush is trying to secure a place in history- that is completely true in my opinion, he has had hard times as president, but none of it justifies a war. also, people here who don't have anyone in the military and those who aren't in (that ARE of age) should have no right to say "let's go to war" because they refuse to put their lives on the line for their country they should have no say whether others do or not, their opinions are different than people like me. those who flame are just trying to belittle the ones they're flaming because they run out of comments to help their side of the argument, or they're just being childish and trying to make sure the person knows that they're an ******* or something like that. it's sad and funny at the same time, i know i've done it, but that doesn't mean that i don't wish i hadn't. hmm, war sucks, people will die, lots of sorrow will follow, and the possibility of suicide bombers hitting even harder will surely increase, then people will regret this war, no i only hope everyone makes smart decisions from now on
p.s.- skinwalker, how old are you, you are very knowledgable and can counter most anything people say, and you're not afraid to admit when wrong or agree w/what your opponent in a debate says
Originally posted by Father Torque
Now C'Jais. Im not being rude, but i would like to say shut the h*** up. Your being an uptight jerk. Everything that we Bush supporters say you always have some answer that half that time you make up as you go. Your saying all these bad points about my post and half of them are completely random and false
You see it all the time. People who aren't able to debate against something another one said, and therefore gets so angry that they start to flame. Get a grip on yourself.
BTW, if you didn't know already, C'jais is a moderator. Not smart to insult those.
And to Qui Gon i made a mistake. There are 300,000,000 million people in the US.
Actually, it's closer to 275,000,000
Also im not gonna sit here and listen to all youre negative bull crud C'Jais. Half of youre statistics have been proved wrong by the CIA website. Dont go thinking that all youre facts are correct because they arent correct.
:rolleyes: What makes you think you know better?
This greta deppresion stuff you say affected the whole world is correct, but a trust worthy website states that the great depression barely affected France and many neighboring countries.
Understand that "Europe" does not mean "France". Im not too familiar with how the 1929 thing affected France, but I know that it affected Europe quite a lot.
Also JM Qui Gon you want evidence. How bout the tapes of Sadam killing innocent christians and 17 empty warheads.
Tapes of Saddam killing innocent christians? Sounds doubtful to me, at least the innocent part. About the empty warheads: They don't prove anything. But you may scource it.
Why is Tony Blaire supporting us. Because he knows what has happened with Sadam that most of you wouldnt even think of having happen.
No. He supports you because he's Bush's little pet dog.
Also C'Jais why are you saying that we say no ther country is good. I know of countries that have better things than we do, but i did not mention them, dont get me wrong, i think america is pretty crappy right now.
But a lot of Americans go boasting about on why USA is the best country in the world. Even though they mostly haven't lived in another country.
Also back to Qui Gons statement of the time period of Rome. The story of Romulus and Remus dates back to 745 BC. Then in 1495 the seljuk turks invaded and destroyed the last part of the 2 roman empires Constantinople.
But the greatness of Rome did not last thousands of years. Only some hundreds.
And Wui Gon again. We show trust to Bush, because he is a great man, of intellegence.
If he has intelligence, why don't he show it? Right now, he's acting like a monkey.
Do the math 1000-745 then the total +1495. You get somewhere around 1700.
Hehe, that's wrong, it's 745+1495=2240 years, not around 1700.
You said no one trusts america how do you know give me evidence.
I said no one trusts US intelligence. Just look at the "evidence" Powell presented for the SC, it was totally based in indications and suppositions, the weapon ispectors said themselves that it's rubbish.
You really gotta thin kabout your facts before you go blurting about how great and perfect your country is. i know you stated that thats not true but you keep on going on to the fact that it is perfect.
Oh, please quote me where I ever said my country's prefect. Oh, sorry, I forgot you can't, since I've never said it!
Imagine being a president you would pee in your pants if you had this tough decision.
Right. Just belive that.
Also i suggest that you guys read the bible becaus eyou obviously have a problem with trust.
The point is that I do not trust any of the two sides in this conflict, I trust neither Saddam or Bush in other words. trust the neutral ones who actually know things.
. And JM again you keep on saying that im immature, well if i am how come i can write this much about my opinion at the age 12.
I do have my theories on that, but they aren't really fit of telling.
Please send me a pic of your faces when you find out that Sadam does have weapons of mass destruction.
No one here has said that they don't have them. It's just that there is not enough reason to assume that he has.
And yes to the person who mentioned that this should be a bush supporters only thread. Look at the thread title. Bush my president. Not Bush yes or no.
But a one-side pro-Bush thread is practically propaganda in itself. If you won't see both sides in a case, your mind is easily going to be tricked.
And how come it seems that all you non bush people can never come up with a good arguement, you are always saying WHY WHY WHY. Cant you guys have a good counter arguement. Its like im getting feed back from a 7 year old. You always say. Where is the evidence, why dou you trust him, cant you state your opinion in a way that doesnt include the word where or why in every sentence.
We do have a lot of good arguments, it's just that you deny them. And a good deal of the questions are rhetorical, if you happen to know what that is. Rhetorical questions are real powerful in debates, but if you don't know what they are...
I dont know if its becaus eyou yourselves are to inmature to right write something worth reading or you just dont have the skill to write a political issue reply
:rolleyes: Read our posts, alright? It's quite ironic that it's you who complains about not having the skill to write a political issure reply.
Please in the future non-bush people dont always come to the conclusion that we are lying . Because we arent and there would be no point.
Oh, Bush have lied. To his own people. Quite scary, don't you think? He said that Iraq isn't disarming, but we know they are, even the weapon inspectors says so in their report. It's scary that people rather trusts Bush's brain than facts.
Also stop saying that bush is stupid and dumb. You cant have these qualities and become a president. It doesnt work like that.
Remember who's Bush got for a dad. Shouldn't be too hard to get to be president then, eh?
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Obi-wan13 and I disagree (if memory serves correct) on the Iraq issue, but I didn't see anything "annoying" about his post. In spite of our disagreements, I have a large amount of respect for Obi because he doesn't stoop to the levels that some others tend to (including myself from time-to-time).
Obi-wan13 was right. The U.S. is a world power. We do have the right to be proud of our accomplishments. Most, if not all, nations of the world have made their mistakes in the past.... especially the U.S. and the U.K.
We've got to see past the nationalism, ethnocentrism and the emotion and see the logic.
i respect Obi too dont get me wrong he is wise and funny, but i get a strange feeling when that opinion on the war shows up, it must bug me so much becuase i am a person that is against war at any cost.... i dident have the right use of words there... sorry guys
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Tapes of Saddam killing innocent christians? Sounds doubtful to me, at least the innocent part. About the empty warheads: They don't prove anything. But you may scource it.
No tis hard to believe but its right. I'm not sure of a source on the internet but the History Channel was doing a 3 part series on Saddam and they had tapes of people (not sure if the were religious or not) being hung in the sqaures at public demonstrations. I don't know if he still does this because he is to busy hiding but it was done for a LONG time, ever since he became the ruler.
And wow, there is sooo much stuff here that I'm gojng to respond only to the things that caught my eye.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
1. How can you know they have found enough evidence?
2. If they do have enough evidence, why don't they show it to other countries
There was an official CIA release that anyone can get on the internet about the amount of chemical weapons that Iraq had after the Gulf War or something. It was HUGE, enough to kill millions of people. To date, it is not known what happened to those weapons. I'll look up the report and try to get it to you.
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
first off, i support the military, i do NOT support the war though.
And as your friends knew when they joined the military, they might have to go to war. They knew that when they joined, they made that choice. If you support the military then you should support them in any conflict that arises.
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
you can't resign from the military when you're signed in for 4 years, that's the minimum that they HAVE to be in, they can only get out on medical now
Actually, (correct me if I'm wrong here), my cousin is going to graduate from West Point in May of this year. He then has to serve a minimum of 4 years of service. After that HE IS ALLOWED TO RETIRE as an officer. So yes, you are allowed to retire after 4 years I think.
Originally posted by SkinWalker
The United States of America is NOT at risk. Saddam has NO nuclear weapons. Even if he had couple, he would have no way to deliver it nor would he chance it. The same applies to the chemical weapons he is sure to have. If he utilized them, then the world would be justified in dealing with him. This should've been done the last times he used them, which weren't even during the last decade or two, but the world chose not to do so.
That is correct, the US is NOT at risk from Saddam himself, but the fact that we were able to be attacked by terrorists means that if any of his weapons get out to THEM, then the US is in danger.
Also, I am a firm Bush supporter but i think that he should be concentrating more on N. Korea. They pose the immediate threat to the US right now as they have nuclear weapons that can reach to the West Coast.
Originally posted by SkinWalker
4) The U.S. economy is tanking. Billions of dollars will have to be spent on a war with Iraq in addition to the billions already spent. Billions, if not trillions, of dollars will be needed to rebuild Iraq. European nations are not likely to pitch in if they don't agree to invade.
Well, if the war goes well and Saddam is either killed or ousted with minimal casualties, then the European countries will most likely want to pitch in. The question is then, will the Bush administration get over their pride of winning enough so that they will ALLOW the nations to do that.
Wow thats enought for today, to many posts here. :D
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
If he has intelligence, why don't he show it? Right now, he's acting like a monkey.
:rolleyes: Oh please:rolleyes:
Ich mochte George Bush schlagen
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Actually, (correct me if I'm wrong here), my cousin is going to graduate from West Point in May of this year. He then has to serve a minimum of 4 years of service. After that HE IS ALLOWED TO RETIRE as an officer. So yes, you are allowed to retire after 4 years I think.
but they HAVEN'T been IN for 4 years, they're both only completing the first in june, they have a long time to go, they CAN'T resign right now, in your post you didn't argue my point, you only supported it, i said they have a minnimum of 4 year service and you said that your cousin has a 4 year service minnimum, THEN he can retire, after 4 years, just what i said
I just have a question to all those who wants war in Iraq, the same question that the German foreign minister asked:
Warum jetzt?
Originally posted by ep2 Anakin
but they HAVEN'T been IN for 4 years, they're both only completing the first in june, they have a long time to go, they CAN'T resign right now, in your post you didn't argue my point, you only supported it, i said they have a minnimum of 4 year service and you said that your cousin has a 4 year service minnimum, THEN he can retire, after 4 years, just what i said
Ah my bad. Your post was unclear to me.
BTW, if you didn't know already, C'jais is a moderator. Not smart to insult those.
Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.
What he said.
Have a nice day. :)
Originally posted by Darth Groovy
Exactly. ep2 Anakin, I suggest you start exercising some civility in regards to your posting habbits, or you will find your self banned. I have seen enough already. Telling people to stfu, is not a good way to get your point across. Cussing out other members is a violation to the rules and you WILL be dealt with accordingly.
Eh...I was quoting FT's post, not ep2Anakin's...
Not that Anakin doesn't deserve a warning, but it seems a bit funny that you give public warning to ep2A and not to CagedCrado or FT. I mean, you'd think starting a racist thread is worse than cussing a bit.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Eh...I was quoting FT's post, not ep2Anakin's...
Not that Anakin doesn't deserve a warning, but it seems a bit funny that you give public warning to ep2A and not to CagedCrado or FT. I mean, you'd think starting a racist thread is worse than cussing a bit.
CagedCrado was already warned by another mod. We work as a team.
Wether I warn here, or in a PM is irrelavant. Every mod does things a different way. All that matters is that the member in question was warned. If a "public warning" embarrases a member, perhaps they should not break the rules to begin with.
It doesn't matter how much you measure one violation in regards to another one. Starting a "racist" thread is one kind of violation, and insulting members, or "flaming" is another violation. When violations to the rules are made, we act accordingly.
darth groovy
well what did you do to the people who called me a: crybaby, selfish brat, immature brat, and some other names i can't think of right now (just read their posts) they call me names for not wanting war and not wanting my friends or other americans to die, doesn't seem right to me, THEY should be the ones getting the warnings, i'm sure you've had moments wherein periods of heightened emotions you've let stuff come out that others didn't like. everyone has and there's no point in lying, so, if you ban me and no one else then you ARE singling me out for what reasons i don't know, and if that IS the case then you need to have your powers taken away because you are not exercising them accordingly to forum rules, not fair. this is a place of opinion and others will not listen unless you hit them hard w/SOMETHING that makes them think, which means, if somebody refuses to listen to what you're saying then it's actually a good thing to flame cuz i know when i'm getting cussed at i listen a lot more. i never told anyone to stfu, i said sit down and be quiet, but it's only after they said the same thing to me, why aren't THEY getting a public warning, i don't mind it, i just want to know that everyone here is getting the same treatment and you're not some war hungry guy who wants to punish all those who don't want war and this is the only way you can do it,
i am voicing my opinion and others flame me for it, and since there is no proof of warnings towards them it makes me wonder, make ALL warnings public so people know you ARE enforcing the rules and not just singling people out. now, since everyone has at least once said something they regret in a period of heightened emotions then why is it not forgivable? i'm not saying i regret saying anything on here, i feel that anyone ready to send my friends(or anyone for that matter) to their deaths w/NO proof of an immediate threat to the U.S. can go to hell, that's my opinion and i said that, being my opinion it was a generalization made in a response to a previous post and that person fell into that category, and i don't apologize for anything right now, because people refuse or are too young to join the military but want to go war so they can live their lives, think about the soldiers and their families, i used to love war and battles, but now that i actually think about things, i hate war, because it causes just as many problems (sometimes more) than it solves.
darth groovy, i don't apologize for anything, emotions play a LOT in these posts(especially with a topic like this) and if you don't understand that then i'm sorry for you, if you're going to give warnings make them ALL public so people know you are enforcing the rules fairly and not singling anyone out, cussing in a post and cussing out other members are completely different things, i don't remember cussing anyone out, but i could be wrong, it's late when i write these so i can forget, find me an example and prove me wrong, you can't can you? hmm, interesting, think more before you act, see heightened emotions- you didn't think before you typed and now you are wrong,
you'll probably ban for PROVING YOU WRONG but oh well, i guess it doesn't matter, if that's the way it's gonna be then i don't know why people would want to be here anyway, especially w/all the "france is gay" people, just cuz they are being smart and not pissing anyone off means that we need to boycott everything from and w/the name "french" or "france" or anything like that, soon we'll be a lonely country w/no friends cuz we're boycotting them and we still have 2-6 years of this, hmm, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if bush DID get assassinated cuz he is NOT making smart decisions right now
so what about that groovy?
tainting the moderator = :disaprove
This is getting out of hand...
Anyone up for some martini? :cheers:
Ummm, Anakin, perhaps you forget, but you came INTO this thread calling us rather harsh names even if we don't like war but think Bush is an okay guy. So how about you just, like, calm down and act your age?
Seems to me that alot of people in this thread (note I am not mentioning any names) are posting in this thread just to be arguing. I doubt that many of those people even remember what they were originally arguing about anymore.
ep2 Anakin, I have a girl I am in love with that is due to ship out this summer. We were planning to get married and have children, so please do not tell me, that I do not have strong feelings. What matters is that we think carefully before we voice our opinions. Also in a period of hightened emotion, yes people tend to think before they type, but that is what the edit feature is good for. And like it or not, it is OUR jobs to remind you good people when things have gone to far. When I see an abundance of name calling, and a half page of posts that contain **** in every other sentance, it especially draws my attention. ep2 Anakin, if somebody in this thread offends you, you can pm one of us, or simply click the report post button, it works the same way. Sorry if you feel singled out, but honestly if I would have pmed you, would you have read it? And I have been told that I can warn by either pm or by posting in the thread, so I am not out of line at this point. Now if the you folks don't get back to the topic, the thread will be closed next.
If i may, im going to lay down a few things. Firstly, in the real world, i know it suck and it happens to me, its never the first guy to do something wrong that gets into trouble. Its always the guy who retaliates, thats just the way it is right or wrong, thats usually what happens. Now, onto whether people should be warned in public or private, it doesnt matter. Its not something to get up tight over, no ones opinion of someone is going to change radically if they get warned in a thread, instead of a PM.
There are plenty of people at lfn who do not check their pm's and who dont have email notification on. To PM a warning to that user is a complete waste of time, since they may not get it for days or even ever. It is up to the mod to decide where to warn an individual, and if he or she feel's it best to warn publically, then every other mod would agree, we know each other and we know that we are all responcible enought to make decisions. If everyone on the forums were as rational as the mods are at most times, our jobs would almost be unneeded.
Now, that im done with that, i would appreciate it alot if this discussion could get back to the original topic before this thread reaches never never land.
bill
Originally posted by SkinWalker
He makes no mention of the fact that Iraq will have to be occupied for many, many years by the United States.
Only for as long as it takes to pump out all the oil in that country.
After that, they're gone.
Ok ep2 Anakin I'll answer your thing about your friends nicely.
They chose to join the military, correct? They knew that when they joined, there was always a possibility of them going to war, correct? You knew that as well. Now that war looks immenent, they can't turn away and run scared, they must face it, bravely. And they will to. Now, I don't agree with SOME aspects of this war but wanting the US not to go to war because of your friends is, well, in my opinion silly. Why would anyone join the military and then want to leave at the first sign of danger? They are doing what they wanted to do. Support them in their decision, they are protecting you far from there homeland. Now, they may not like this war at ALL but they knew that when they joined the Army, that it could happen. And they are probably proud to be there, knowing that some little girl or boy or adult will sleep better in the US knowing that they are keeping them safe.