Just thought I'd post this while it's fresh in my head - just some ideas about that level you might consider at a future date...

Having just played through Ramsees Hed, there are a few issues with the level that I think could be addressed in the Mod. They are largely architectural and modelling issues.

Start Point

You just start next to a sheer grey wall. No door, and no other clue as to how you got to that point. If the Moldy Crow had landed to drop you off...it would have (a) alerted the Stormtroopers around the corner, (b) blown the mission. If there was a short access tunnel, a door, even an open grate in the floor, it would make a great deal more sense as to how you got there by more covert means.

The Ship

Now, they were obviously pretty much constrained by what they could do in terms of modelling the ship in DF, and I personally think the exterior needs a total revamp. At the very least, it needs some sloping sides...perhaps even curves in places. As for the rocket boosters at the rear, they would look a whole lot better if they were modelled properly, and if there was a gap between them and the ground, it would make it feel a lot more like a ship being held in place, rather than just a retextured block attached to the ground.

Indeed, most of the exterior of that level just feels wrong. When you enter the ship, you go down in a lift - so the ship is obviously a lot deeper than the supposed ground level. I think you could really get around this by making the floor outside of the ship into some kind of retractable grating or decking (even see-through, so you can see the rest of the ship model) rather than solid concrete, and leave gaps between it and the ship. This would make sense in the context of flooring that could be retracted when the ship is ready to blast off.

The solid wall at the rear of the boosters probably needs a 'blast' texture...something to show the intense heat of the rockets hitting that section of wall on a regular basis. Or even remodel it into a blast-pit where exhaust gases are sucked away.

The grey walls that connect with the side of the ship seem totally out of place. If they were remodelled and retextured, you could make them appear more like giant clamps keeping the ship in place while docked. If you're not sure what I mean, check out the second level of Jedi Knight - where you have to walk on top of a large ship (then inside it). The whole ship is held in place by gigantic magnetic clamps (which seem more like walls, but aren't).

As for when you reach the open bay doors of the ship...there is no obvious place for the cargo to be offloaded. If there were doors in the walls opposite the open ship doors, and maybe a crate or two standing on the ground outside the ship, it would make a lot more sense, IMHO.

It would even be a nice touch to add some kind of large pipe attached to the side at the rear of the ship, to show that it is being refeuled.

When you get inside the ship, and down to the first cargo hold, it seems a bit empty. Maybe you could model some lifting gear, and something to move the crates around, like a large repulser sled or something.

Covert Operation?

The remainder of the level seems okay - but there is a glaring inconsistency in the entire mission IMHO. If you are supposed to be attaching a tracking device to the ship in order to learn where it is going...surely that should be a more covert operation? Yet all you do in that level is shoot everything that moves. Now, if someone boarded a vessel and killed the crew, surely an alarm would be raised, and the ship impounded pending an investigation. I'm not saying it should be a 'sneak' level like that found in JO...but if there were alternative pathways (especially through the crates) you could use to get past the enemies on that level, it would make a lot more sense, IMHO. Taking that a step further, the inclusion of the 'stun' weapon from JO might be a nice addition for non-lethal take-downs.

Just some food for thought. ;)

Ummm, I may be wrong, but that dark room you enter via a lift is not the ship, but a cargo hold. I thought the ship was that white cooridor and all.

I may be wrong, but thats's whst I always thought.

Will there be crates with the words: Rubber Ducks and/ or Glass Bombs be in it? I laughed to see that in the original.

Very detailed info, I like the idea of the whole beginning. Maybe make it into a docking bay instead of a big gray cube... The Crow may or may not be identified. Remember, they landed at Ergo with no hassel....

Originally posted by Katarn07
Ummm, I may be wrong, but that dark room you enter via a lift is not the ship, but a cargo hold. I thought the ship was that white cooridor and all.

I may be wrong, but thats's whst I always thought.


I believe you are mistaken. You only have to look to the left from the start point to see the ship's engines...and when you walk around to the open door, that's in the side of the ship. :) You are entering the cargo hold of the ship, not a warehouse holding facility. The white corridors are where the crew normally work, so it's bound to be clean, tidy and well-lit, hence the contrast. Trust me on this one. ;)

The outside areas certainly need something to make it feel more like a spaceport. The suggestions made sounds pretty good. The plot problem I'd noticed too; it's made worse by Kyle killing off everyone on board, so how does it get to it's destination? The goals could be adjusted so the player has to download navigational information.
The Crow landed at Ergo because it's a public refueling station, with no real secrets to hide asside from one ship which goes to the secret position of the Executor. Ramsees Hed is also a public place, but this area is probably purely Imperial. It might be an idea to try to make that clearer, though.

thanks for the suggestions on this level. It certainly has some weak points. Perhaps we could add an objective:

"Attach Tracking Device"
"Avoid Detection"

we can place those alarm panels all over the ship like they had on the Doomgiver and if any one sees you, or a corpse, they will go sound the alarm, you'll be caught and the mission will end in failure.

how does that sound?

the arcitecture ideas are a given - when we finish it should actually resemble a ship at a docking bay, not some blocks with engines painted on them next to some more blocks with a wall painted on them

yes we'll keep the Rubber Duck crates too . . ;-)

Originally posted by Darth_Linux
we can place those alarm panels all over the ship like they had on the Doomgiver and if any one sees you, or a corpse, they will go sound the alarm, you'll be caught and the mission will end in failure.

how does that sound?

noooooooooo!!!! i hated those!! i dont really care if its logical or not to kill off the entire crew, but dont put the alarm panels in it!

No covert ops, please! How about the security rooms being taken out first, and then you must plant the stuff just before the ship takes off. (unless you are in the ship while planting it, detail sucks so bad, I never knew the whole thing was the ship!)

My suggestions for this realism-

-- Disable Imperial Security
-- Plant Tracking Device
-- Escape the ship before taking off (different route then how you get there!!!)

The reason it must be different is that there is no way you could get back to the Crow at one point, because you fall off a ledge that takes you closer to the main portion of the ship that you can not get back onto, Or at least that's what I think...

As much as I hated the Covert OPS level in JO - in another way I really enjoyed it, as it actually required my brain to stratigize, and think in other ways, besides running and shooting.

What you could do is:

Easy setting:
1 or 2 alarm panel(s) near the VERY end where you place the tracking device.

Medium setting:

One or two alarm panels at the beginning, middle, or end with the addition of the panel(s) in the Easy setting.

Hard:

The same as Medium but with additional panels, at the beginning middle or end.

Now does that seem unreasonable?

The problem with that solution is that it actually alters the gameplay of the level depending on the difficult setting. Dificulty settings should not alter gameplay - only the ease of which you complete a level.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. The structure of a level should never change, regardless of difficulty.

Originally posted by The_One
The problem with that solution is that it actually alters the gameplay of the level depending on the difficult setting. Dificulty settings should not alter gameplay - only the ease of which you complete a level.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. The structure of a level should never change, regardless of difficulty.

i agree completely...and is it even possible to do what he said? change the structure of a map for each level of difficulty? i think it would be too much hassle.

I never said anything about changing architecture - just adding or subtracting alarm panels depending on the difficulty setting. Nothing too hard about that.

Just simply assign the panels to the correct difficulty setting.

But it's not my mod - so, do what works.

I never said anything about changing architecture - just adding or subtracting alarm panels depending on the difficulty setting. Nothing too hard about that.

They didn't say anything about changing architecture either. They said it would change the gameplay and structure of the level.

I just realy think that to be a bad idea.

I like the disabling security, or better yet---

Jan and the Intelligence has doctored up some security tapes for Kyle to replace with the tapes rolling on the cameras. He must go there, disable any alarms, and then find the ship.

I can't think of a way to make this level realistic without the alarm panels. Seriously. I mean who can waltz onto a ship, kill the entire crew, plant a tracking device and then leave, and absolutely no one investigates or locks down the ship??

I'll keep thinking about it, but seriously, sneaking onto a ship to plant a tracking device should be covert and difficult. Too bad the JO engine can't do the types of things the Thief engine could - then we wouldn't need panels - if an enemy saw you or a corpse they would start searching for you . .

anyway, let's have some more ideas!

It's a pity you can't remote control a droid to plant the device...then a lot of the argument would be academic. :( That would obviously alter the gameplay, though...

The only thing I can think of is what I suggested before...provide some kind of alternative path to the objective that allows you to avoid contact with enemies - and have a stun weapon to use on those you see going for an alarm panel.

Or here's a thought...considering the number of crates on the ship...what if some of them contained chemicals - and when shot, it releases a gas that simply knocks out anyone in proximity? Volatile cargo should be nothing new, and while there would be an investigation after any accidents...a vessel would be more likely to continue it's voyage once the suspect containers were removed...

You're right - it's a pity it's not set up similar to Thief... :(

NO COVERT!!!!!!!! Just leave as it was in the original
bad boy K style.Kill all the guards, blow things up, plant the thingie and get out. Thats what Dark forces,Jk and Jo was all about DESTRUCTION in the star wars universe. Not Covert and stealth.

Here we go. I got it.

Kyle knocks out security cameras in a cutscene and then leaves the control tower and finds the ship.

Go through it, guns blazing.

Get to the bridge (where the keys are) and take out the officers and do a delayed takeoff via switch, cutscene, I don't know. Also, plug in some phony tapes into the security cameras so that the control tower does not try to contact the ship.

Rush to the back and stop the crew from stopping the ship and plant a tracking device on the end of it.

Yeah something like that.

So long since I played this level, so this may not work at all.

How about, we just add a new objective where he has to plant a big bomb and set the timer. This would blow up the base and destroy anyone who may have seen you. In the mission brief it could say "You will have to plant a detonator, thus making the whole incident look like an accident".

Actually, the more I look at it, the more ridiculous it seems :p

*Goes back to his website*

LEC wasn't thinking at all... :rolleyes:

Well, I'd rather it be unrealistic than covert ops, cause there are no alternate routes...

I mean, isn't this the "kingpin's" cargo ship we're tagging? Not Imps... Although they are delivering the cargo or something... I thought it was this
"kingpin's" cause he wants to killing you for interfering with his affairs. So, the Imps couldn't do much to stop the ship if the crew is dead and the control tower is disabled.

How about a cutscene of Jan leaving the Crow and actually doing some dirty work up there? I mean, I'm sure she had to do more than fly Kyle around to get so much credit....

*** "Up there" means the control tower....

The best I can come up with is replacing the "Plant tracking device" with a "Retrieve the information" objective, perhaps planting a bomb to delay investigations. Presumably the ship had folowed the same course to Anteevy before, so it should be in the navigation databank. But there's no way the ship would go flying off after Kyle's been on his rampage.

Well, here is another idea.

Kyle goes on his killing spree as he takes out all the crew members and plants a tracking device near the fuselage of the cargo ship so that the ion particles mask its presence from the control tower's scanners. Kyle rides on the ship to Anteevy, where Jan can follow him easily to the place. He escapes from the ship just in time before the Imps come to get their Phrik and Rubber Ducks (what? I guess the officers get bored in the tub...) Cutscene shows Kyle and Jan near the canyon. Jan says the plan did not go to plan of avoiding decetion and planting the device, but they got there anyways. She can say that they probably have uped their security details (ala Darktroopers!) Then the mission starts.

Of course, if you did that, I'd like to alter my conversation between the snowtroopers. This could work.

And you can have alarms going off on the ship and stuff.

What if you had an objective for Kyle to knock out a guard and steal his uniform? Then you could sneak around and not have to worry about being shot at. However, should one of the guards catch you doing something suspicious, the alarm would be sounded?

Like in MOHAA? Sounds good, but it changes the gameplay of the level completely.

i'm gonna have to agree with the covert idea. The going in guns ablazing approach just seems to far fetched. I mean common, its 1 level and if yu don'[t like it, play te original

NO, WAIT!!!!!

Do the uniform thing and add the objective of getting back to the ship! That way, as the ship is just taking off after you plant the device, you have to kill the crew as you make your way out (don't make it timed like level 15 of JK, the falling ship, if you do this)

This must be the 4th suggestion I have given. Now I don't care that you don't use them and I know you are busy with the mod and all, but can you please acknowledge my posts as being good, needing more thought, or that you hate it and that it would never work???

Thanks, guys ;)

Originally posted by Katarn07
NO, WAIT!!!!!

Do the uniform thing and add the objective of getting back to the ship! That way, as the ship is just taking off after you plant the device, you have to kill the crew as you make your way out (don't make it timed like level 15 of JK, the falling ship, if you do this)

This must be the 4th suggestion I have given. Now I don't care that you don't use them and I know you are busy with the mod and all, but can you please acknowledge my posts as being good, needing more thought, or that you hate it and that it would never work???

Thanks, guys ;)

err, I'm still just soaking in all the ideas. All these ideas are good ones and will be considered. I can't say "your's sucks, your's is good, your's needs work" because everyone's ideas are valuable.

I think when the team has decided how to do it, we'll let you know in a spoiler thread or something. in the meantime, don't sweat it. your contributions are important whether we use them or not.

thanks
Dave

I like the idea of taking out security before attempting to do the rest of the level. Consider, the ship is not run by the imps, its run by smugglers, so you go around the base looking for the keys to the ship, so you can get into it, then you could add a part where you have to do the covert thingie to get to the cargo bay.

Guys, please relax - this map hasn't even been started yet. Even if it had, it would be a month or so into development that the mapper would consider adding in these details.

I think the best thing to do is to put a poll in your site a couple of weeks before you start making the map asking people what they would like.
Like
A) Just like the original
B) All covert Doomgiver style (Hope not)
C) 50% Action 50% covert ( Hope not)
D ) Almost all action with a bit of covert
E) Like the original but with more destruction

:D

Ok, here's what I think:

(It’s been a while since I played this one, so I might be totaly off)

What you have is a trade off between imperials and smugglers (and worse) the imperials most likely don’t trust the smugglers to have tracking information right out and unencrypted. The smugglers still know where they’re going, but it isn’t left out where their shoddy security can get it stolen. It’s encrypted in an auto-pilot program that only that ship can read and so forth.

So you can’t steal it, but that doesn’t mean you can’t kill everyone in true “I am Katarn, I was named after a viscous beast, and I kill lots of people.” fashion. The imperials and the lawbreakers never get along, no matter how much money is involved, the situation is always tense. So provided they get there stuff they don’t mind if the crew of the ship is dead, and they wouldn’t be concerned or surprised if they received a report that the crew all died in a riot.

What you need is an interruption in the flow of information. So in goes Kyle, dressed as a stormtrooper or a smuggler, doesn’t matter, and he starts shooting at whoever he’s not dressed like. At the same time Jan takes out the security and communications (best way is by causing a black out, power outages aren’t common things) or Kyle has done this earlier. So all communication out of that sector is comlink (and thus verbal.) The technology would definitely exist to intercept and edit communications, so Jan is there taking out anything that could suggest this is a rebel, and possibly adding in some stuff to make a riot more plausible. If the troopers themselves don’t give enough information saying that there is a big riot going on (and there will be once the shooting starts) than Jan simply edits in some radio chatter of that kind.

All that Kyle has to do is plant the thing on the ship, make sure that no one who knows what he’s done lives, and get out before the back up imperials come to lock up. The ship is on auto-pilot and once the scan picks up no life forms, and nothing out of the ordinary the imperials should let it be, or give it a new crew. Either way they will be more concerned with the cargo then doing a big search for a tracking device they have no reason to suspect and their scans show isn’t there.

Better yet leave out the auto-pilot all together, once they stop the riot they’ll check the cargo and proceed as planed.

Anyway that is a way to keep the senseless violence, with out it being quite so senseless. It works simply because of imperial belief superiority (overconfidence) they believe that these criminals are untrustworthy, and they don’t believe that the rebels are cunning enough to play on their own assumptions. It is stealth, and covert, because no one can see you going on the ship to plant the device, or see you enter or leave, it’s simply a different kind. If they were expecting a rebel to track the ship they wouldn’t expect anything this extravagant, anyone who thought it was a plot to do something of that nature would be laughed (excuse me, beaten) right out of the conversation.

That’s my way around the problem anyway, all you need to do is mess with the flow of information. If you were to allow a camera to be there, or let someone say I think it was this one guy doing it, then they can figure out it was a ruse. So Jan needs to be sitting there with a big computer doing the hard work, and a power outage at the same time that the security system goes down would be a plausible start to a riot, edgy people can get violent in the dark.

By the way, I know that's long, but I tried to explain whay it was plauseable, riots have been used to cover things in real life. I also tried to make it make sense (I'm fairly sure I failed) to that end I redid parts of it, so there may be some senseless repition that I missed, which I can't fix, but it might also make more sense if you read it twice, in case I mixed up the order of something.

Anyway, hope you liked my idea.

It makes sense. Needs some tweaking... I don't think the entire breifing should be changed...

Why not add a section to the briefings exclusive to the mod?

Background-

Classified Intelligence (stuff to add in breifings exclusive to the mod)

Mission -

Objectives-

They're all good ideas in this thread :)

Once we have a mapper working on it, I'll be sure to point him/her in this direction.

Why not just have it the way it is, but after you plant the tracking device, you have to activate the autopilot which sends it on its way. You can even have it so you only have 5 minutes or so to get out before it takes off and you are traped with the reinforcements that come on board.

It makes sense. You say you don't want to change much, but you will add things like returning to your ship (when you didn't before).

I always figured that the Imp's were on the ship loading it up before it was too take off. You get there just as the Imps are finishing up, place the tracking device, hit the autopilot and run before your time is up. You can still kill everything if you want.

And where does it say rubber ducks?

Agreed. That is excelent idea in my opinion. Run to the bridge, snatch the key, activate the autopilot, run to the back and plant the buggar, and escape another route (if you did not realize this, there is no way to return to the starting point after taking a dive from a high spot to a lower one, so another path is going to be needed...)

And an idea for that way to get off would be a hallway that is revealed upon planting the tracker full of reinforcements notified of your attack. Mow them down as you run through to a lift that takes you to the surface, where the Crow can swoop down and the mission is over.

While alot of these ideas are pretty good, I have a different idea for how it should go.

First off, if you are going to be doing something that you don't want noticed, you need stealth. Blasting through everything is what I call EXTREMELY high profile.

If this ship is supposed to be so important to the Dark Trooper project, then I'd think they would be pretty suspicious if everyone just suddenly turned up dead there. I would want to delay the shipment to see what was up, and send a scanning crew onboard.

I can understand the Imperials shrugging it off due to urgency, but only so far...

And as far as autopilot.. The only way I see it working is if the cargo is non-essential to the project. It's been a while and don't remember all the exact details, but if it's tied to something important, you probably need the crew there to acknowledge security checks.

So what I'd say is just alter the mission slightly. I'd just make it you have to use a device on the computer to extract the information. You then make more sense of the situation, can blast the crap outta everything, and still retain the original sense of what the DF level was.

You could always make it far simpler, by changing the objective of 'planting a tracking device' to 'cracking the ship's log' to find out where it has stopped in recent weeks. Or find some materials shipped from the planet for analysing it's homeworld. You wouldn't have to change a thing about the layout, just a small objective.

Yup... that's pretty much what I was saying as well. :)

I like Chris' idea alot! I think it would be cool if the player got a disguise in any case (also, if there's no reason to run the player should have to walk or else arouse suspicion) and the whole imperial superiority makes sense, it would just require a whole lot of woek on the map, you'd basically be making an all new map, which would rock because there are NO good stealth maps for SP at this point.

Regardless: The main problem with the alarms in JO was that long cutscene you had to endure every time. Alarms would be much simpler, though probably less cool, than Chris' idea. You'd just have to make it so the player could just start over right away.

My god
someone liked my idea.

I'm surprised anyone took the time to read the whole thing. Simplicity is probably better though. Dark forces wasn't a heavy “Kyle devises a clever plan to trick the Imperials into thinking that it was nothing” kind of game. It was much more of a “Kyle kills everyone and hopes for the best” thing.

I still like my idea, but doubt it would be used. And if it were to be it would need polishing. Probably a lot.

It's a good idea. If not in this mod, maybe some other SP mission. The whole Imp vs Thug motif is the best part. JO didn't really have any of that grittier stuff but it makes sense and would make the mission alot more fun.

It's an excellent idea. I really hope that it is put into the level. I'm hoping to join the team as a mapper and if I can, the level I would most like to work on is Ramsees Hed. And I would definately want to do something along those lines.

I'm pretty new here, not sure I've posted on these boards before, though I've followed this MOD's progress for a while.

I like the idea that the tracking device idea should be replaced with the crack-the-log objective.

The tracking device idea isn't really a good one to begin with. If I was Kyle, I'd just walk up to the ship, open a maintenence panel, drop the device in so no one could see or reach it, close the panel, and leave!

We can wasily make cracking the log only possible from one spot... the main computer, or a special terminal, for example.

Also, another idea would be to insert "spyware" into the computer that would secretly send data over the HoloNet (ie Star Wars' Internet :D) to the Rebels.

I like Chris' idea about staging a riot. For a week or so before the Ramsees Hed mission, covert operators could infiltrate the group of smugglers who own the ship, spreading rumors about the imperials who run the surrounding spaceport. Then, one last rumor could cause the riot to.... well, riot... and Kyle can land and post as one of the rioters, who would be working to cleanse the ship of Imperials and take off, not to Annteevy of course.

However, since the Imperials own the entire spaceport, this would be impossible and Imperials would pour into the ship after long (good excuse for enemy generators). And during the riot, you would make your way to the main computer and upload the program from your PDA.

Kyle would then leave the ship and "disappear" in the nick of time, as a cutscene would play showing the imperials landing several troop transports landing. A few shots of the troopers mopping up the smugglers and commandeering the ship, and one of the ship lifting off for Anteevey once the ship is secured. (They're behind schedule, after all :D) One last cutscene shot would zoom in on the empty computer room, with the terminal blinking a message like "Relaying navigational information..." (just as a nice touch).

This is what I think the plot should be. Of course, it's not up to me. ^_^

And, BTW, smugglers most likely would not have alarm boxes on their ships (yes, I hate them too)
:explode:
Smugglers would not tend to secure their ships as Imperials do. They'd be more interested with weapons and shields for defence.