More stelth is what you need.
A bit more like "thief", Jedi is the keepr of the peace not a warrior.
We got force power to defend, confuse, heal, but you got to slash and kill all in order to move along.
Yep you can confuse the troopers, but as soon as they get free from the "mind trick" they will come after you, so why not greep them to deth take one?? :confused:

I agree regards the push/pull force powers, it should be able to use them on most stuff, like boxes and be able to tear things from the walls.. and use the saber to melt doors..

One thing is for shure in JK4, I hope not to start again from a normal person and learn the powers from day one.. I have done that since DF1... time to use the force.

I want to see a whole lot of force abilities. like to make ceiling crumble when battlig a foe ,like when Dooku did Ep 2. also to be able to used the wirlwind in KOTOR. Any body else got any new force abilities sugestions :)

being able to hurl objects at enemies would be usefull, like Darth Vader does to Luke in tESB.

I agree with Radd that is should be more like Deus Ex, with more investigating and stuff to be done. You should start off with all of the force powers available but you only get goo through using them. multiple means to an end result (like in Deus Ex) would be good aswel, for example you could find the key or if you have some explosives you could blow it up. hacking computers to turn of turrets and that sort of thing. I think the most important thing would be that not everyone is against you. there shoud be people you can just talk to.

Able to control the amount of force push/pull, like press and hold the key down for a powerful one, and tap the key for a light one. :)

force destruction and foce blinding :D

Force morph would be cool if you could morph in to any of the people in level that you have seen.

Force wirlwind would be too similer to grip.

Being able to move objects from different angles would be cool though, as long as it gave you some control.

Imagine moving objects the way you move someone with Grip, just more advanced. Seen Half-Life 2 trailers? Exactly.

hmm, i'm thinking that instead of using a new engine, they shoudl reuse q3. but to make up for the graphics, use GIGANTICALLY HUGE maps. say if you get in an xwing, it'll take you atleast 5 minutes to get to one side from the center. and make it more gta like :)

Nah, I think we've had enough of Q3.. Half-Life 2 looks awfully good though, I saw a trailer and thought I was looking at a movie

In Dungeon Siege, the more you use an ability the more you get proficient at it.

Use bow 'n' arrow and your dexterity and range skills go up. Use fireball and your intelligence and combat magic goes up.

Use lightsaber and your saber offence/defence goes up. Use lightning and it'll get more powerful with every zap.

No points. Just select it and excerise it. Use push/pull for 800 years and you can lift an X-Wing out of the swamp with ease.

And yes, the environment has to be influenced. Moving object would be great. Look at how many times you have to move stuff in JA. Yavin training ground (4), Droid Recovery (4), Merchant Rescue (1), Vjun (2), Rift (2), Korriban (10). Did I miss any, 'cause I'm tired of fighting my way through troopers just to flick a switch. :mad:

With the phsiics engines of today, I don't see the return of foce throw an impossibility. I await the day I can be crawling across a ledge and push some crates or rocks down on some stormtroopers.

I could go for different uses for mind play. Rather than just special scripted moments. Say, mind trick an officer and he'll pull his troops from the area. Or open a door for you. Or walk off a cliff, I don't know.

Of course, I suppose this doesn't go along with the current style of the Jedi Knight games, being mostly action. Then again, I like to play througn a level and stay as stealthy as I can. So you can see where I'm coming from. Or maybe not and I want these for my own selfish gain.

Something like that would need to be capped, but it'd be a good idea. I don't know how you would implement that in MP though.

neutral:
- force throw (or something that along the lines of moving stuff around, and then using force push to send it foward)
- force push (revamped like GG|crow said [awesome idea!] which could work with force throw to concentrate and object foward into your oponent unless they push it away)

Light:
- force blinding (maybe just for some fun... though it is of little use and i can see it causing alot of bitching in mp)
- force reflect (some sort of power to reflect energy in one way or another ala yoda EpII, eg maybe when a jedi absorbs force past a certain point they can use that energy to do some sort of attack)

dark:
- force destruction (again they would have to be very careful with this one as it could really upset the light/dark balance if not done right... but it is cool :D)

those are my suggestions

also maybe having parts of mp levels that you can push/pull/force throw to make them crumble down like dooku did

For multiplayer? Um... didn't think about that.

Still, wouldn't it suck if you're about to deliver the deathblow after a lengthy dual, when someone drops a crate on your head? Dropping pianos have no honor!!! :D

regarding the level designs, i want a game which has levels that slightly complex but are absolutely basic to find which way to go, and that it be puzzles and enemies that make the game hard. too me nothing is worse than a game which is hard simply coz you get lost every 2 seconds.... that was a problem with the tomb raider games 3 and 4 in my opinion...

also, anybody else wanna see the return of kyle katarn? or do you think its time to see a new hero, atleast for one game?

Also i think it'd be good to see a full on kick arse saber engine just with the standard saber.

i don't know about you guys but if i had the choice of a game with 3 saber types and a good saber engine, or a standard saber game with a full on wicked kick arse engine... i'd chose the second one :D.

i'm willing to sacrafice the other styles in exchange for some good sword fighting in the next game :). besides, did having a single saber make outcast any less enjoyable?

Originally posted by Durocha
I await the day I can be crawling across a ledge and push some crates or rocks down on some stormtroopers.

Must... drop... pianos... on... troopers... :D

Say, mind trick an officer and he'll pull his troops from the area. Or open a door for you. Or walk off a cliff, I don't know.

In JO ya gotta Mind Trick an Ugnaught to open a door in Bespin's furnace room. Scripted, but you didn't have to kill for once.

Of course, I suppose this doesn't go along with the current style of the Jedi Knight games, being mostly action. Then again, I like to play througn a level and stay as stealthy as I can. So you can see where I'm coming from. Or maybe not and I want these for my own selfish gain.

I kinda like the stealthy mission in JO. The closest I got to stealth in JA was... well... not. :rolleyes: I think the problem is it's being geared towards the MP fragfest, thereby making SP a half-assed plot that kinda fits in the Star Wars theme. In MP noone cares if you're good or evil, only if you're within weapons range.

I already mentioned the 'Hlaf-Life 2 Gravity gun' effect in the JK4 thread - so I'd definitely like to see something along those lines for a Force Throw.

I think there should be a Force Levitate in there as well. If Luke can lift objects in ESB, then why not have the same ability in the games? Levitating yourself to reach one of those really high places that you can't reach with Jump...or levitating an ally who can't use Force Jump, so that they can continue to provide support in a tight situation. Or even using it to stop an object falling on others (like Yoda did in AOTC). Maybe if a bridge started to collapse, you could use the Force to keep it stable until the people on it got to safety. There are lots of potential uses for such a power.

Mind Trick needs tweaking to make it really useful. I'd prefer to see an effect similar to Persuasion in JK, where you just turn it on and become invisible to all enemies in an area for a short time. Persuasion was great for stealth.

Using the Force to improve the combat and morale of allies would also be good to see. Conversely, a Force power to weaken the morale and combat effectiveness of enemies for a short time.

Extend the use of Force Healing in SP so that you can heal allies as well (similar to Team Heal in MP).

They are coming out witha new JK game?

If we could make things float in air, atleast I hope that you can't just make a freaking bridge float when you're just a Padawan.

And as we all know, the beauties of SP are always nerfed when transferred into MP. (The new cool Drain thing isn't in MP, Seeing is Seeing, not Sense... etc)

Originally posted by MasterKakashi
They are coming out witha new JK game?

Nobody knows. This is all speculation, and purely a wishlist for if they did make another one.

I'd like to see fully customizable character appearance down to the smallest details, like what they have now with Jedi Academy but far more intricate. Like robes, hoods, arm cuffs, ect. Also perhaps better saber system. As for the vehicles, although no one has said much about them, I'd like it if they could be implemented into the next engine (Whichever it may be, if it ever comes to be) and be improved upon.

Originally posted by Kurgan
Amen to that, JK1 and MotS were maybe twice as fast (or faster, it's been awhile, so I'd have to do a side by side comparison to know for sure) as JA or JK2.

After you play JK1/MotS MP for awhile you feel like you're moving in slow motion with JK2/JA!

Trust me it doesn't need to be any slower. ; )

Trust me it does ;).

Why? Because it is still way faster then movies (gun fights and saber battles), and when (if) they move to the doom3 engine which seems logical since its raven. THEY WILL BE FORCED TO go slower, because maintaining jedi academy's speed in the doom 3 engine will look foolish.

They will be forced to (for the benefit of a much better experience) slow down fighting to logical and more cautious saber wielding levels, and I would imagine make sabers and weapons more deadly as a result of the slower pace (otherwise death might be rare).

All I have said is inevitable with an improved engine. You simply cannot have shoddy or un realistically rapid animation as it will look blatantly wrong in a new tech engine, while engines like Q3 can forgive it and even welcome it.

The same is true for Q4, although it should be fast, because of the engine it wont be anything like Q3's speed and soon to be relatively jerky animation.

Originally posted by Smood
Trust me it does ;).

Why? Because it is still way faster then movies (gun fights and saber battles)... But I don't want to play a movie. I want to play a video game :)

Originally posted by Prime
But I don't want to play a movie. I want to play a video game :)

3 things:

1. You are in the vast minority
2. A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience
3. Evolution of games in this fashion is inevitable

I think Lucasarts should throw development rights at the guys who did call of duty. The game was very impressive and what they did with the Q3 engine was probably the best pc squad shooter ever. Now imagine what they could do with a series like JK. I'm sure they would use a lot of raven's ideas to the fullest but make the game a more immersive experience. Just my opinion, though as there are other devs out there who make great games. As far as reality vs. videogame is concerned, i think there is a fine line that exists so that while you can make the game realistic, you should not forget the fact that it is a game and you want the player to have fun.

Originally posted by Smood
Trust me it does ;).

Why? Because it is still way faster then movies (gun fights and saber battles), and when (if) they move to the doom3 engine which seems logical since its raven. THEY WILL BE FORCED TO go slower, because maintaining jedi academy's speed in the doom 3 engine will look foolish.

They will be forced to (for the benefit of a much better experience) slow down fighting to logical and more cautious saber wielding levels, and I would imagine make sabers and weapons more deadly as a result of the slower pace (otherwise death might be rare).

All I have said is inevitable with an improved engine. You simply cannot have shoddy or un realistically rapid animation as it will look blatantly wrong in a new tech engine, while engines like Q3 can forgive it and even welcome it.

The same is true for Q4, although it should be fast, because of the engine it wont be anything like Q3's speed and soon to be relatively jerky animation.


hmm bro, the saber fights in ja and jo and even jk are slow compared to the ones in episode 1 and 2 and the clone wars toons. the fights were simply incredible, strategic and fast paced. as for gun combat that 2 was fast paced in the movies and clone wars series; Han solo nailing troopers and rodians here and there on the fly, clone commandos taking out battle droids with just dual pistols. i dunno, seems to me if you want to make it more movie like you'd have to accelerate even a game like jk and mots.

I think he meant the original trilogy. I may have said this before but I just want to be able to fight effectively without jumping or running around.

Originally posted by Tinny
hmm bro, the saber fights in ja and jo and even jk are slow compared to the ones in episode 1 and 2 and the clone wars toons. the fights were simply incredible, strategic and fast paced. as for gun combat that 2 was fast paced in the movies and clone wars series; Han solo nailing troopers and rodians here and there on the fly, clone commandos taking out battle droids with just dual pistols. i dunno, seems to me if you want to make it more movie like you'd have to accelerate even a game like jk and mots.

The original trilogy as Cain mentioned represented far more skillful and thoughtful fighting (not just coreographed saber dancing). However EVEN in EP1 and EP2 the duels are slower then that of JA and JO. Moreover the gun fights are tremendously slower and also more tactical (not just simply running with a huge flak cannon, and jump off a ledge while firing at full speed). If you think otherwise you should try to better compare the game reality to the movie reality.

For an idea of the gun fight pace that much better represents the pace of movie gun fights play a mod called "Troopers: Dawn of Destiny" for unreal tournament 2003/4. In this mod you will see what pace and cautious fighting are about.

Weiser_Cain: Agreed.

Stormy’s Jedi Knight 4 Wishlist

***Warning: Force Long Post***

Character Creation

I really liked the character customisation tool for Jedi Academy, so I would like to see it retained, but expanded. Many people felt at the time that it made a bold step in the right direction, but failed to go quite far enough. One example of this was a restricted number of races…and restricting genders per race. So I would like to see a wider variety of selectable races, and be able to select the gender according to my preference for each race. I personally didn’t have a problem with the range of options for clothing…but I know some people did, so that may be another area that needs some expansion.

Another issue that detracted from playing the different races was a lack of race-specific language or dialogue. A Rodian speaking with a human voice just sounded odd, and unrealistic. Even a Rodian accent and timbre while speaking English would have been better. So I think that, for whichever races are available, there should be an appropriate voice pack to suit each one.

The last issue that I can see here is that people could not select their own name for the character. The reason for this became apparent during the course of Jedi Academy, and personally I didn’t have a problem with it. However, there could be a workaround in a similar way that was used in Deus Ex, where your character had a ‘code name’ in the game (J. C. Denton) , and you chose the ‘real name’ for the character – which was then used in some written materials later on in the game. It helped to bind you more closely into the game world.

Selectable Missions

Another feature that was introduced in Jedi Academy was the ‘selectable mission’ format, where you could choose the order in which you completed missions, and even had the option of missing some of them. I think this was a good feature of the game, but again, it didn’t go nearly far enough. Many of the missions themselves seemed quite short, and consisted of single linear levels with simple objectives. Some were obviously better than others, but on the whole, many of them could have been far better developed. Some seemed rather pointless.

I would like to see selectable missions retained, but I would prefer to see much larger levels – or a few levels per mission. This would allow for developing a proper scenario or story for each one, and allow for better characterisation of potential foes. Each mission would, of course, have to tie in to the main arc of the plot, and allow the player to uncover a range of clues and evidence that are relevant to the main story.

As an example…in Jedi Academy the 2 Tatooine missions, and the Swoop bike mission, could all have been combined into a single scenario with three levels. You could have started with the Tusken Raider level – in search of the droid. Then moved onto the swoop bike level…to get the information retrieved from the droid to the space port. Then finished with the space port, which has been locked down by the enemy, who are trying to prevent you from leaving with the data. With more fleshing out of the sub-plot, introducing a strong character for an enemy to confront, making the levels less linear, and adding more NPCs (particularly in the space port, but also in the houses out in the desert), it could have made a single exciting mission split across 3 levels.

So perhaps there should be fewer, but longer, selectable missions, with well-developed plots and significant NPC characters, while retaining the ‘gameplay variety’ that was available in JA.

Story

Repeat after me….”It does not have to be about saving the universe”.

This is a trap that many games fall into. You either have to save the world, or save the galaxy. Why? Can’t you simply be involved in saving a single town, for a change? Or a single person? Just because it is a Star Wars game, and you will inevitably have to confront someone else with a lightsaber (because it’s a Jedi game), but why does it have to affect the entire galaxy?
If you read books like the Jedi Apprentice series, you gain a small insight into how the old Jedi order worked. They were involved in trying to end disputes on planets, for one thing. So why not introduce these kinds of scenarios? Perhaps there is a dispute between a couple of planets in a single system – and as a Jedi you are given the task of preventing all-out war between these planets. It could be a purely local dispute…but no less exciting in terms of action and suspense.

The problem with many of these ‘epic scale’ plots is that stronger characterisation takes a back seat. When I think of the original Jedi Knight, in terms of story the whole ‘Valley Of The Jedi’ scenario could simply have been ditched – and the focus could have been on how Kyle Katarn resolved the death of his father, and brought those responsible to justice. Does he seek justice, or revenge?

Does there need to be a Dark Jedi cult to provide lots of lightsaber battles? In my view, no. Look at Jedi Academy, where you meet the same enemy twice. The first time they got away, and turned up later. Well then…why not have a similar situation in a new game? Fewer opponents, but you get to meet them several times to do battle, and each time, you are both stronger in the Force, and more adept with a lightsaber. Considering this is basically what happened in the original Star Wars trilogy…a father and son do battle across 3 films…then surely it is not beyond the scope of a single game? Does anyone think the Star Wars films were completely boring? Yes, the backdrop was a galactic conflict – but the key story was really the resolution of the conflict between father and son.

I would prefer a story with stronger characterisation, and interesting encounters, rather than trying to save all life from extinction or slavery under the ‘ultimate power in the Force’. Call it a more ‘mature’ approach to story development.


Cut Scenes

Do we really need them? In my view, yes and no. Personally, where there is a situation or event involving the character I am playing, I would prefer to remain in full control while events transpire around me. Basically, the ‘Half-Life’ style of showing something happening, while leaving you in control.

Where I do think cut scenes are needed is when the story switches to show the ‘villains’, or to show ships and vehicles landing or moving through space. These are staples of the Star Wars experience. In Jedi Knight, you were kept quite well informed of what the ‘villains’ were up to during the cut scenes. In Jedi Outcast, there were also some good scenes showing the key ‘villains’ interacting. In Jedi Academy, however, there were fewer scenes depicting the villains, and I think this served to weaken them. You can only really develop a villainous character by giving them screen time, and showing what they have done that makes them ‘bad’ or ‘evil’. This is one of my major criticisms of the character Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace. You never learn enough about his background, his motives, his terrible deeds, in the movie, and so you’re just left with a ‘cool lightsaber fighter’ at the end of the film. By comparison, the first time you meet Darth Vader, he’s choking rebel captains, goes on to choke some of his own troops, and you learn he’s basically wiped out the Jedi order. You immediately have a sense of how powerful and evil he is through his actions, and his past.

Cheesy at it may be, you also got this to a certain extent with Jerec in Jedi Knight. You see him torture and cut down a Jedi…you learn he’s the murderer of Kyle’s father. You know how bad he really is through his current actions and his past.

So in those terms, give more screen time to the villains, and give them stronger characters, with an appropriate background, and give them more to do during current events rather than simply exchange dialogue.

Stealth

In my view, being a Jedi is not simply about using weapons and the Force to attack enemies, or defend yourself. As I’ve said before, a Jedi is not a tank, and when faced with significant numbers of foes, should try a more covert approach. Examples of this behaviour are plain to see throughout the movies:

The Phantom Menace - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan sought to avoid confrontation by sneaking aboard a ship, used an out of the way route (through the planet core) to reach the city, then sneaking around the city in order to jump the guards and free the Princess.

Attack Of The Clones – Obi-Wan follows the trail to Kamino, then follows Jango Fett’s ship. He sneaks around Geonosis trying to uncover the truth, all the while trying to avoid confrontation.

Star Wars: A New Hope – Again, Obi-Wan chooses covert methods, tricking Stormtroopers, then hiring a ship with ‘no questions asked’ to ‘avoid Imperial entanglements’. On the Death Star, he sneaks around to disable the Tractor Beam.

These are all stealthy actions on the part of the Jedi, so it would be good to see some stronger stealth elements introduced into the next game in the series. Not ‘forced stealth’ levels like the one in Jedi Outcast – that plainly did not work, and was no fun. I mean having a choice to use stealth, like you have in such games as Deus Ex and No One Lives Forever. In both of those games, you largely have the choice to sneak around…or go for a frontal attack and hope for the best. This is how a Jedi should operate. Use covert methods when you deem it necessary, but still have the ability to take on foes directly.

In order for a proper stealth implementation to work, the levels have to be designed in a certain way, incorporating areas where you can hide with relative safety. The AI of enemies has to allow for sneaky behaviour as well. Instead of enemies always knowing where you are (as they did when triggered in all the previous games)…they should have to ‘discover’ you. And if they lose track of you, they should have to ‘hunt’ for you. An alarm going off should certainly not end a mission or level. It should put enemies on high alert – but if they cannot find you, the alarm should eventually turn off, and AI’s should go back to their duties. Examples of this kind of behaviour can be seen in No One Lives Forever 2, Deus Ex: Invisible War and the Thief series of games. If you make a sound, they hear it and start to look for you. Then they calm down and go back to what they were doing before, if they can’t discover you.

The Force power Mind Trick could be far better utilised in a stealth context – and even have a blanket effect like ‘Persuasion’ from Jedi Knight, where you are basically invisible to all enemies for a short period of time.

Level Design

This is one of the key areas requiring improvement, IMHO. The levels in both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy were largely quite linear, and required you to follow a particular path. I would prefer a much different approach to level design – and catering for stealth certainly requires certain other factors to be taken into consideration. If you look at a game like Deus Ex: Invisible War, it gives you a range of options in how to move around a level, and how to tackle certain obstacles. You are not constrained to a single path, or a single solution to problems you face. With more open-ended level design with multiple pathways, you choose how you wish to proceed. Sneak down this alley? Or go over the roof? Or go via the sewer? Try to bypass that security panel? Or stack some crates to jump over a fence? Shoot the guard? Or stun him and hide his unconscious body?

You cannot do any of these things unless the level is designed in such a way that you can do them. You need places to hide (either yourself or your victims). You need those alternative routes to be built in, or you can’t use them.

How many times have you been confronted by a low wall that you cannot jump over? Or a door that won’t open? It becomes infuriating after a while that the designers are forcing you down a singular path.

If I see a door in a wall…I want to be able to open it and explore the room on the other side. If I see a window…I want to be able to break it to see what lies beyond. If I see a grate over an air vent in a wall that is similar to one I broke two minutes ago…then I want to be able to break this one as well. In other words, levels should not force you into a situation where you can do A, but not B, which appears exactly the same, but because the designer doesn’t want you to go that way, you are restricted.

I know that it is often a problem trying to keep a player within certain boundaries – the physical extents of a level – but there can be better ways to ‘fake it’.

The other thing that seems to be missing from many games these days is swimmable water. While it might not be essential, it is nice to have, and can add a great deal of variety to the gameplay. Far Cry has it, and you can swim under water to remain undetected in order to get closer to an opponent, or bypass them completely. Jedi Knight and Mysteries Of The Sith both had some well designed underwater sections. You could even find an alternative route into Baron’s Hed via an underwater tunnel. By including water in a level, you can make it more interesting – and introduce a wider variety of creatures to confront the player. Who can forget the Dianogas in Dark Forces and MotS? The Drugons in Jedi Knight could be dangerous too, if you weren’t careful. If you play a game called Rune, you’re faced by a very large, fast and dangerous man-eating fish that you have to try and avoid. Even small fish nibbling at you (like Unreal and Mace Griffin) can help to bring an environment to life.

As for outdoor terrain, well, we’ve all seen the new Unreals, and the Half-Life 2’s. Far Cry has some excellent outdoor levels, with long viewing distances – and you can listen in on AI’s from afar, snipe them from a virtual mile away, so they don’t know what hit them. You can watch them running around trying to find you. Then you can creep through the dense foliage to within striking distance, using ridges and embankments to hide your progress. Outdoor terrain needs to become more realistic and interesting for the Jedi Knight series. It was good to see greater variety in Jedi Academy, but it needs to go yet further.

Environmental interaction

This is partly related to level design, but mostly encompasses objects in the game world. I say partly related to level design, because there will always be certain features of a level that would appear to be interactive, but usually are not. Things like computer consoles. Data screens etc., can certainly add colour to a level…but I always want to walk up to a console and start accessing information. You could do this in Deus Ex…if you saw a terminal, you could usually access it, and either read someone’s private emails, or hack into the security network to take the cameras offline. I think it’s about time we had something similar in a Jedi Knight game. So if I walk past a data terminal, give me an option to go back and make use of it.

As for objects…I’m sick of immovable and impregnable crates and barrels. They have become almost a standard fixture of every FPS game, and it’s becoming monotonous. Of course you will find crates or containers in certain logical places…but not littered all over the environment. You can guarantee to find a stack of crates in a corner that allows you to access that air vent…because that’s the way the designer wants you to go. Or there’s a lot of crates you can use as cover…when faced with a large number of hostiles. I remember in the days of Unreal and Half-Life when you shot or hacked at a crate…it disintegrated, and spilled out it’s contents. Yet we seem to have gone back to crates that are glued to the floor and made of concrete, because they cannot be moved or opened. Only with the advent of physics engines are we now seeing more ‘moveable’ crates and barrels – but largely because it ‘looks cool’. I have nothing against physics…as long as it serves some kind of purpose. Whatever you push around…you should still be able to break.

There needs to be a greater level of interaction with the environment. All containers should have a way of being opened. I mean, if you have a rocket launcher in your arsenal…you should be able to open any container. Or any door or window, for that matter.

And here we come to the crunch. A Jedi’s weapon is a lightsaber. And a lightsaber can cut through almost anything. Therefore it is high time that environmental interaction reflected the lightsaber’s cutting power. You should be able to use a lightsaber to open most doors, all windows, all containers, and even slice through parts of the scenery. I’m not saying that all walls and all parts of a level should be vulnerable – but you should certainly be able to cut a hole in a thin wall, or a floor or ceiling. Something similar to the Geomod tech used in Red Faction is really needed for a Jedi Knight game. In order that the ability to cut pathways through a level cannot be abused…perhaps the lightsaber should have a recharge period after every time it is used for such purposes. That then introduces a level of real risk – because you could be left vulnerable to attack while your lightsaber is recharging. If it had to recharge for five minutes after using it to cut a hole in a wall…then you would have to avoid contact or trick your way past enemies for that period of time, which brings in the ‘stealth’ element once more.

NPCs

Again, to reiterate what I (and many others) have said before, the Star Wars universe is always portrayed as a bustling hive of activity, with many aliens and humans going about their lives and business. Yet in most of the games, this has hardly been captured very well. It’s time for this to be addressed in a more realistic way. Other games manage to incorporate NPCs on streets (NOLF2, Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter, Soldier Of Fortune, etc.), so why is it so difficult to incorporate this much-needed factor in a Jedi Knight game? In the original Jedi Knight, you felt that you were more actively involved in the role of a Jedi by protecting civilians - first on Nar Shadaa (a Gran held a woman hostage in a control room), then in Baron’s Hed, where thugs were attacking people on the streets. Mysteries Of The Sith, the expansion to Jedi Knight, also included civilians, and tried to expand on the idea of people living in apartments.

I’m sure many people have by now watched trailers for Half-Life 2. There are civilians in that game too. They react realistically to the appearance of enemies – running and screaming. Yet it goes further – due to the animation of their bodies and facial expressions, they appear more ‘alive’. They become more believable through their actions and expressions. Let’s be frank here…a Jedi Knight game needs to incorporate this level of realism in order to make you believe in the characters. The original Jedi Knight game featured a ‘moral code’, where your path to the force was dictated by your actions regarding the civilian population. Kill the innocent, and you become evil and twisted. Yet if the characters don’t seem real…it’s harder to believe in them as ‘people’ rather than sprites. Give me a character who goes down on his knees and begs for his life when you threaten him with a lightsaber – and then you have harder moral choices to make, and so your path to the Dark Side would be all the more believable.

In my view, interaction with believable characters is part of what makes a story. It does not have to go into the realm of ‘role-playing’ where you have question/answer conversations with NPCs. However, if everyone you bump into makes a remark, or reacts to you in certain ways dependent on your reputation, it sets you more firmly in the game world. You become a more integral ‘part’ of the world, and the world reacts to your presence in meaningful ways.

When I walk into a cantina, I want to see the Jizz band playing on a stage. I want to see patrons at the bar, laughing and joking, talking and arguing. We’ve all seen the Mos Eisley cantina sequence in the film…that is how a cantina should be. Full of life, movement, bustle. And aliens. Not just humans, or a few cloned aliens who will eventually try to kill you. But all different types of aliens, some neutral who will duck and run for cover when the shooting starts, others hostile who will be doing the shooting. And what if one of the hostiles makes a sudden grab for a hostage, and uses them as a shield as they back out through the rear entrance? And what if that is not a ‘scripted’ event, but an actual choice of the AI in that situation? How interesting could the gameplay become then? You would have to deal with the unexpected – the unscripted.

Is it impossible to entertain this kind of idea? No. It is entirely possible with current advances in AI. You simply put an identifier on the objects in the game world – including other NPCs – which tells the AI how it can interact with things in it’s own environment. Things like: I can talk to this person. I can sit in this chair. I can pick up this tankard. I can grab that girl to use as a hostage. I can hide behind this table for cover. Or I can simply go about my business.

If characters can react in unpredictable ways to the same stimuli, then this breathes life into the game world, and makes it more challenging because you cannot take anything for granted. You can no longer assume X will happen in relation to Y. This, of course, improves the inherent replay value of a single player campaign.

Weapons

When you look at a game like Star Wars Battlefront, you can immediately see that they’ve got the blaster effects ‘right’ in the context of the Star Wars universe. The blaster bolts travel quickly, and appear as they should. Both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy unfortunately suffered from the ‘slow blaster bolt’ effect – where enemies could basically dodge your blaster fire just by walking out of the way. I would hope this is something that would be addressed in the next game. I want to see those red blaster bolts leaping across vast spaces to cut down opponents. And yes, I want to see them sizzling towards me rapidly just before my lightsaber blocks them.

I’m not really a fan of the more traditional ‘projectile’ type weapons that we encountered in Jedi Outcast and Academy. I know why they were introduced – because otherwise you would have become invincible by just blocking blaster bolts with your lightsaber. There had to be other weapons to get through your defences and cause damage, both in single player and multiplayer. A way to get around that would have been to reduce the effectiveness of blocking with the lightsaber to begin with. Allow more shots to get through and do damage, so the lightsaber does not make you completely invincible. I’d just prefer to see fewer ‘quake’ like weapons (rocket launchers and flak canons or shotguns), and more heavy blaster type weapons that pack more of a punch, and can get past your lightsaber defences.

Force Powers

I’ve already covered this sort of thing in other threads.

I’d like to see the ‘gravity gun’ effect from Half-Life 2 utilised in a Jedi Knight game as an advanced Force Throw. Rip objects off walls (which again comes down to environmental interaction – it has to be designed for you to be able to use it), and throw them at opponents.

I’d like a maxed Force Push effect that can blast objects over, and smash windows – like an effect seen in the video trailer for Advent Rising.

And I’d like a levitation power that could have a variety of uses, from lifting heavy objects out of the way, to keeping collapsing bridges upright long enough to allow people to cross, to levitating an ally up to your position if they can’t use Force Jump.

Mind Trick should be tweaked, and have the old ‘persuasion’ effect from Jedi Knight, to give you better options for using stealth. It should also be viable to use it on NPCs to trick information out of them, like security door key codes, or the location of someone you are seeking, etc.


At the end of the day, there is just so much potential for a further Jedi Knight game.

Damn, I do wish Stormhammer wielded great influence over LucasArts and the Jedi Knight Series :p

Originally posted by Smood
3 things:

1. You are in the vast minority
2. A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience
3. Evolution of games in this fashion is inevitable

Wow

1. You are wrong.
2. Not everyone plays sp exclusively
3. Nothx, won't happen. Computers are getting faster, so they can handle it just fine.
4. stfu already take your propaganda and rhetoric elsewhere.

Wow, Stormhammer, i think you hit the nail on the head and imbedded it into the wood with one shot (pun intended).

On another note, what does stfu mean?

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Wow, Stormhammer, i think you hit the nail on the head and imbedded it into the wood with one shot (pun intended).

On another note, what does stfu mean?

STFU = Shut The Fuggle Up

Tis not a nice expression. :tsk:

First of all, this will be long. Stormhammer made me do it :) Second of all, I didn't get all the way through his post... :D

Originally posted by Smood
3 things:

1. You are in the vast minority Is that so? I would guess that if the game was an exact duplication of the movies people would be pretty disappointed. e.g.

- The vast majority of saber hits are one hit kills.
- 0.001% of saber attacks actually hit.
- There are only blasters available, which almost never penetrate Jedi defense. Thus gunners would be unable to defeat jedi. So no guns FFA.
- Only darkside characters could use a saberstaff.
- Lightside could not use force push/pull on another living character, but darkside could.
- There would be no guns FFA since Jedi don't carry guns.
- Gunners couldn't use force.
- No first person view.
- No powerups.
- Required fatigue meter.
- Once killed cannot respawn.
- Damage handicaps player.
- No CTF.
- Explosives should take out buildings.
- Only carry a couple of weapons at a time.
- The game would not have MP since the dialog and atmosphere deviate so much from the films. There are no gay lamerz in Star Wars.

You get the idea. Sure, some of the examples are contrived, but I'm just trying to show that movies and games are completely different mediums, and different goals. Like it or not, some things that work for movies don't for games, and vice versa. Making a game too close to the movies will inevitably sacrifice gameplay and fun. My previous comment ment that I want (and for sure many others) want a game with good gameplay first and foremost, not a game that is an exact recreation of the movies.

Originally posted by Smood
2. A more realistic 'fantasy' experience may possibly equate to a greater experience Or perhaps better gameplay will. If more realism was really the driving force in enjoyment for games, most FPSs would have died out a long time ago. They most certainly haven't.

Originally posted by Smood
3. Evolution of games in this fashion is inevitable But realism is not a prerequisite for being fun, nor does realism guarruntee fun.

Originally posted by Smood
he original trilogy as Cain mentioned represented far more skillful and thoughtful fighting (not just coreographed saber dancing). Really? I have a hard time believing that Ep4 Obi-Wan vs. Vader represented a better view of saber fighting than those in the prequels. Not to mention that Lucas has stated that the whole point of the Ep1 battle was to show what Jedi could do in their prime, as opposed to fights between old men and cripples. If that is the basis for realism a game will involve tapping some sticks while chatting with each other. Sounds like fun to me... :)

Originally posted by Smood
However EVEN in EP1 and EP2 the duels are slower then that of JA and JO. How so? Obi-Wan versus Maul is so fast that at first glance it is hard to tell what is happening. To me, at least, JO/JA seem just about right. At least the way I play :)

Originally posted by Smood
Moreover the gun fights are tremendously slower and also more tactical (not just simply running with a huge flak cannon, and jump off a ledge while firing at full speed). If you think otherwise you should try to better compare the game reality to the movie reality. You seem to be looking for something like KOTOR. It sounds like exactly what you are asking for. It gives you much more realistic looking saber and blaster fights. A FPS is not the genre to provide really accurate lightsaber combat.

How do you propose to have a FPS have more realistic fights anyway? Here are some issues that need to be resolved:

1. How do you enforce no running and jumping in a FPS saber fight?
Will the game prevent the players from doing so? If so, how does the game decide when a duel is taking place? Proximity to each other? What if one player is just running by the other? Would it work for the game to all of a sudden disable running just when you are passing by another player. Do you disable running altogether? If a saberist can't run, what stops another player from thermal detonating them a lot more easily?

2. Guns vs. Sabers
The problem with representing the Star Wars movies in a game is the vastly imbalanced abilities of gunners and Jedi. The Jedi are uber-powerful and the gunner has almost no way to affect the Jedi whatsoever. Their blasters are useless against them, and you've removed any other effective weapons for the sake of realism. How is this going to work in a game if realism is to be maintained? Do they have to just run away? Why be a gunner at all?

3. Force Users vs. Non-Force users.
In the movies the Jedi have Force powers and everyone else (i.e. gunners) does not. In the movies the Jedi can mind trick, force push, choke and lightning people. For realism, the gunners have no defense whatsoever against these.

What does a gunner do in FFA Nar Shaddaa streets when he is being choked and moved over a cliff to be dropped? For realism's sake absorb and force push have been removed for him, and his weapon is useless. So what does he do? Who is going to want to play a gunner in a game like that? Do you remove the guns from saber games? That isn't realistic when compared to the movies.

4. Damage and Killing
In the movies, a person gets killed and they don't come back. They certainly don't respawn a second later and continue to fight. So should the player not be able to come back into the game? Should they have to wait for the next round? Will players want to sit around for an hour after getting killed in the first 5 minutes?

As for damage, in the movies (and real life), when someone get's hurt they won't be operating at full speed. To be realistic, the game would handicap a player (slower movement, worse aim, whatever) more and more as they take more damage. Is a player really going to want to play a game where most of the time they have limited abilities? What if they are really hurt and can't move? Not much they can do, since there are no powerups. :) Is it a fun game to just lie immobilized and unable to do anything? No, but it sure is realistic.

5. Hero and Villian rules
The movies are all about heros and villians, and the same rules do not apply to both. Heros get wounded and players get killed. Heros make every shot and minions miss everything. How is this going to be incorporated into the game? Is a player going to want to play as a stormtrooper when they can't hit anything and die when a rock hits them? And if you don't include that aspect of the movies, you are not sacrificing movie realism for the sake of gameplay.


Again, the whole point is that at some point realism has to be sacrificed for gameplay purposes. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. :)

That list actually sounds pretty good to me...
1 vader is not a cripple, or at least he doesn't fight like one. I like the fight between luke and vader just before luke is captured and taken to the emperor, Vade looks as if he's trying to take lukes head off!

2 You should be able to run and cut it just should get you killed.

3 Jedi are really really good against gunmen, remember luke got shot in the hand while rescueing Solo.

4 Damage should be adjustable, I've been playing with totaly realistic lightsaber damage and I think its great, no longer do I run through dark jedi like they're nothing. I'd like blaster bolts to be fatal when they hit a vital bodypart as well.

5 an hour? what sort of game are you playing?

6 Heros and villians? This just isn't true in starwars...

I honestly do not mind having epic plots, actually I like them quite a lot. However, there really was no feeling of anything remotely 'epic' in JO or JA. If you are going to have an epic 'save the galaxy' plot, it has to have that feel to it.

When I come to that final Sith end boss evil guy, I want a battle to remember. I want force powers flying, and when it comes to the saber duel, I want it to cover several distinct areas, each with different mood and atmosphere to it. Not a pit with a boss that I can easily avoid, and beat in a couple minutes by dropping a pillar onto him. I don't want Tavion (a rather bland character in JA if you ask me, she was better in JO) cackling while zapping energy beams from a staff, in a small, enclosed room.

I don't want "Dime-a-dozen" reborns coming at me. When I come across someone with a lightsaber, I want it to be an event.

Gameplay and level design improvements could help these things, and make the game much more fun to play.

Also, for those that say Jedi are invincible to those with blasters, you must not have seen Attack of the Clones. Plenty of Jedi were downed by blasters in that movie. I'm not saying that the games should be 100% like the movies, but I do think Smood has some points. A little more thoughtfulness in the battles would make the game a more satisfying experience. That could be done in ways that would enhance gameplay instead of detracting from it.

For instance, Saber battling could be done in such a way that kills are often one-hit, while the majority of swings don't connect. If the engine can handle it, perhaps a swign could take a limb off your opponent, leaving them open to a killing blow, or they could dodge that (with an ever decreasing life gauge due to the loss of the limb) and fight with that handicap, or flee. This could play into the multiple mission paths idea. It would also be interesting in MP. Individual battles would take longer, and take more skill to win.

Of course, if there's one thing I've learned in years of playing FPS games, the vast majority of FPS fans despise strategy and skill in their games. Complaints about camping, sniping, running for health or armour, using your surroundings to your advantage in any way abound. People will complain about what weapons you use, how you use them. I've played on servers where people would complain if you used a bacta while fighting them, they would complain if you did anything other than take your finger off the fire button and walk conviniently into their saber swings. If you do anything that shows any sort of intelligence or thought you are immeadiately labled cheap, a lamer, a noob, or any number of impolite things that I will not repeat here.

So, I don't expect the game to take that route. I expect it will remain very similar to what it is now, though perhaps fighting will be dumbed down a little more, the graphics will be nicer, and maybe the character customizer will be a little better.

I do like the idea of skills improving with use, instead of putting points into them. Would make the game a lot smoother and keep it more action oriented.

One article I read (sorry I forget who wrote it or where it was) actually made a good case.

At the time of the original films, the "slow" duels we see in the OT more closely aproximate how a "realistic" fight between two guys swinging guardless "instant death" swords would fight.

After all you have to worry about killing or maiming yourself with the slightest touch, a hundred times worse than the sharpest sword (and Katan enthusiasts love to brag about how it takes so much skill to wield one of those samurai blades without injuring yourself).

So they had to be super careful.

Of course once you put "the Force" into the equation, you could always just throw caution to the wind and have the Jedi just flying all over the room with zero regard for safety.

Then again, the "rationalization" prior to the prequals for why Jedi didn't just dowse each other with lightning and choke each other and push each other around in a duel was that the force of each fighter "cancelled each other out."

Though we learn in the prequels that it's out of a sense of power imbalance (not all Jedi can do all these cool powers), a sense of honor (the Light Jedi don't traditionally fight a certain way or use certain powers apparently), and also because they're over confident (witness the foolish way the Jedi went into battle against incredibly odds with no regards for stealth or armor in AOTC and the heavy casualties that resulted).

So anyway, just another perspective. Certain audiences nowadays EXPECT sword fights to use CGI or wirework and more "dramatic" stunts and acrobatics than back in the late 70's and early 80's. Movies have come that way since then.

I just hope the next games saber system is a lot like the fighting system they used in the Return of the King game. You should get experience as you beat the parts of the game and use it to buy special moves and abilities. Also the game had parry against melee and it worked and look good. So seeing something like that for jedi knight would be cool.

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
That list actually sounds pretty good to me...
1 vader is not a cripple, or at least he doesn't fight like one. Sure, cripple is too strong word. :) But Vader still does not have the manouverability that a young Obi-Wan has. He is more powerful, sure. I was trying to make a point that the Vader vs. Obi-Wan Ep 4 duel was not Lucas's vision of a battle between Jedi in their prime.

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
2 You should be able to run and cut it just should get you killed. Okay. If you allow them to run during a duel then why should the get killed? Running allows them to avoid the swing altogether, like in JO/JA now. It doesn't matter if they have less defense, because they are running and that doesn't come into play. So how to you impose a penalty for a player that isn't in range of a swing? Lowering their defense doesn't matter, and lowering their attack only drags the fight out even longer.

I'm not trying to say that your ideas are wrong, I'm just saying that each gameplay decision has repercussions. Gameplay issues need to be taken into consideration when deciding what is best for the game. Simply saying "that's how it is in the movies" isn't always going to lead to the best game.

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
3 Jedi are really really good against gunmen, remember luke got shot in the hand while rescueing Solo. True. So that was one time out of three movies. And that was multiple gunners against one Jedi. Again, a player in an MP game isn't going to be happy playing as a character who has a 0.5% chance to hit his opponant. Thus deviations have to be made from the movie to make the game more playable, that's all.

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
4 Damage should be adjustable, I've been playing with totaly realistic lightsaber damage and I think its great, no longer do I run through dark jedi like they're nothing. I'd like blaster bolts to be fatal when they hit a vital bodypart as well. I agree this may work for SP (which is fine). But for MP this doesn't quite work without making other alterations as well.

I do like upped saber damage in MP though :)

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
5 an hour? what sort of game are you playing? Exaggerated for emphasis :) Even in a 15-20 minute game, a player isn't going to want to get killed in the first minute and have to wait another 19. To avoid that, realism has to be sacrificed a bit to allow them to come back into the game and keep playing.

Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
6 Heros and villians? This just isn't true in starwars... To clarify, I don't mean villians such as Vader, but minions such as stormtroopers and Jabba's thugs. Heros can take more that one hit (like Luke and Liea), while stormtroopers die with one shot (even though they have a lot more armour than the heros). This system cannot be used in an MP game, and thus deviation from movie realism must be done.

Originally posted by Radd
Also, for those that say Jedi are invincible to those with blasters, you must not have seen Attack of the Clones. Plenty of Jedi were downed by blasters in that movie. True, but keep in mind that that was a many battledroids vs. few Jedi battle. For the most part, the Jedi were overwhelmed, as opposed to defeated by superior skill. Jango blasted Coleman Trebor, but Jango was acknowledged as one of the most deadly men in the galaxy. From all the movies, he is the only character to defeat a Jedi one on one with a blaster. To allow any gunner player to defeat a Jedi player, this "movie model" needs to be deviated from.

Originally posted by Radd
I'm not saying that the games should be 100% like the movies, but I do think Smood has some points. A little more thoughtfulness in the battles would make the game a more satisfying experience. That could be done in ways that would enhance gameplay instead of detracting from it. Again, I'm not trying to say that there is no room for improvement or that there are no good ideas here. I am just contesting the idea that all the gameplay decisions should be based on movie realism. :)

Originally posted by Radd
For instance, Saber battling could be done in such a way that kills are often one-hit, while the majority of swings don't connect. This is one way, but remember at one point in JO (can't remember which patch) the saber defense was really high and almost no hits got through. There was an outcry from many players over this. Again this shows that movie realism does not necessarily equal fun.

Speeds:
Movement speed isn't a technical issue really.

Why did they slow everything down in JK2 from MotS?

Perhaps because they thought it had been so long since the last Jedi game that audiences would be unfamiliar (and unprepared) for the blazing speeds of that game?

Or perhaps they were catering to the notion of players wanting "slow drawn out duels" (which they still underestimated several times, with each patch and they still get complaints with JA)?

Who knows. But frankly making the movement speed faster should be no problem.

I'm sure a game engine can be done in such a way that the characters move so fast they can't be seen. That's not the point, but what I'm saying is that just because it (might be) on the Doom3 engine doesn't mean it will have to be SLOWER or even as slow as Doom3 may or may not be.

Personally I wouldn't mind the game being faster (than JA). But as long as there's a cvar like g_speed in there, I'll be happy (meaning the option will always be there to adjust it).

The speed will be purely a design decision. But like I said, it doesn't NEED to be any slower than it already is. To be "just like the movies" would require a completely different game, akin to an interactive movie, and those types of games have historically done rather poorly with the gamer market.

More on Movies

Besides, I'm sure folks will be too busy watching their Star Wars DVD's to care much about some 2 bit derivative (compared to LucasFilm's best efforts anyway) "movie" about Kyle Katarn and his cousin or whatever the next game will be about.

But I'm sure that's a strawman of these "just like the movies" arguments. I think when people say that they are really meaning tweak the saber combat just a bit so it looks a bit more like the combat in TPM, or tweak the force powers a bit so they cosmetically look a bit more like the ones used in the films, etc.

Because honestly how are you going to force people to play the game exactly like the characters in the movies play? They have complex motivations for all their decisions, motivations that may seem completely artificial if placed on players. We're talking Multiplayer here, which makes virtually no sense in a story-format. Why are the players here? Why are they fighting to the death? Why are they coming back to life and killing again and again? Why are they taking flags from each other then returning them? Etc.

About the closest thing to a story in MP is Siege, but even then it has made huge concessions to gameplay. It's a story in only the loosest sense. This may seem like a tangent, but really the story is what drives the characters to act like they do.

Luke fights the way he does because he's pissed at Vader because he thinks the guy killed the father he never knew. Then he fights him because he's angry that Vader might turn his sister to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan is mad at Maul because of the death of his master, but he lets his anger get away from him and screws up (much like Luke does). Obi-Wan sacrafices himself to Vader because he wants to give Luke a chance to get away. Yoda and Dooku are old rivals who want to test their skills against each other, while Anakin ignores his teacher because he's eager to prove himself and angry, etc. etc.

In MP all you get is some guys who want to kill each other for points. So how they play to get to that goal can vary widely. Then of course you always get those people who try to role play, or who just mess around or who want to join clans and all that. Very different motivations than the movie characters. And since they aren't playing for an audience (usually) they don't have to make every thing they do look "good" and have a "point." Every action they do is towards the goal of winning (or at least scoring a few points before they get kicked).

Good points, StormHammer, though I simply hate Stealth in games, I cannot agree you on that for the obvious reason that I don't like it. I think, as you said, that Force Powers should be more powerful, like if you Force Push you should be able to push somebody really hard and far (depending on your strength and what direction you are aiming, etc).

I have hopes for sure, but then again, Raven didn't announce JK4... so all we can do so far is discuss, come up with new ideas, and simply dream.

Myself I would like to see some sort of gametype a lot like Battlefield 1942 - let's say some people pick "Pilot", "Vehicle Driver" or "Jedi" while playing this gametype. The pilots board TIE-Fighters (just an example) while the vehicle drivers board AT-ST's (another example) or similar, and Jedi's simply run out on the field with their chosen skills and battle eachother on a big map to complete goals or simply keep an outpost from being taken over by the opposite side. I want a Soldier part too, with elite soldiers of all kinds running around, Sniping, Heavy Assault, Healers, anything. It would have to have many choices. Wow, I'm drooling already ;)

But this wouldn't be like BF1942, maybe similar, but different at the same time. More options would be offered, we could have the category Field Soldiers, filled of all sorts of soldiers (mentioned them previously) or Field Aiders who help repair buildings or vehicles, or even heal people.

Ok, now I'm going too far. I heard about SW: Battlefront coming out, though I doubt it will be that cool. After all, this is JEDI KNIGHT, but then again, we have Siege.

/start rant\

You see I always thought that the saber battle's were determined on who is concentrating the most, rather then physical abbility. Take Episode 1 for example. Its clearly evident Maul got to Qui-gon before his last fight scene. Fear is Mauls ally, or so he says.

I also thought the reason why they were good at fending off attacks, is because of the abillity to slighty see-into/sense what there enemy is going to do (look back to "A new hope" Luke could not see the remote but he somehow sensed, forseen it). Its also evident from the films that the jedi have to stay focused and calm to pull off the neat tricks we see them perform. So Quigon tries to remain calm, (we see this as he closes his eyes in the moive, as a form of mental defense I would say). But Maul had already got him agitated and Qui couldn't focus which is why he lost, or so this is what i think.

So getting on to my point. I think its not determined by physical stature (sure it helps but not by much). Remember Dooku is also getting on, infact his age is uknown to me anyhow. But lets look at how he took on Obi-Wan (probably half his age) with ease. We can rule out Anakin for now as he is a "special case". As im watching it now, I get to thinking. Its as if the heat starts getting to Obi-wan, when you're underpresure you make mistakes. I also think that he perhaps lost focus for a nanosecond that gave Dooku the advantage. Or perhaps its a completey different proccess. Maybe its because Dooku can see deaper into what obi-wan was doing, and he see's hes going to make a mistake and takes his chances. Or even maybe it just comes down to Dooku being a better fencer/forcer then Obi is.

Its all speculation but this is what I think. Experiance, outweighs youth and stature in my opinion. /end rant

You know what else I'd like to see? Saber forms, that way there'd be a lot more variation in lightsaber combat, and if balanced and executed propperly you'd have more freedom to fight as you chose to.
That way you hyper guys could still flip to your hearts content. And I could stand like a wall of death, calm, composed, and killing in one stroke.
JA is a fps with lightsabers, I want the next one to be a lightsaber combat game with guns. I want Tekken or Soul Calliber level of control.

being able to make objects float in mid air. and slowly pull objects towards you.

Originally posted by Rumor
Wow

1. You are wrong.
2. Not everyone plays sp exclusively
3. Nothx, won't happen. Computers are getting faster, so they can handle it just fine.
4. stfu already take your propaganda and rhetoric elsewhere.

Although I' am surprised you weren't warned by a forum mod about the verbal abuse towards me, I' am not surprised my theory has met opposition, however little sense that opposition makes.

1. Right
2. What does anything I said have to so with SP? When I say experience I mean game experience.
3. No thanks won't happen? Computers, faster.. erm.. computer speed has nothing to do with what I' am saying. Again you go off on a tangent. The points I mentioned only concern the fact that the newer tech engines have quite different animation systems that are not as forgiving to unrealistic looking animations (both in speed, and animation frames (or lack thereof)).
4. I don't think you can make me.

Merging this thread with the 'Jedi Knight 4 (speculation)' thread of the same topic.

Originally posted by Prime
First of all, this will be long. Stormhammer made me do it :) Second of all, I didn't get all the way through his post... :D

Is that so? I would guess that if the game was an exact duplication of the movies people would be pretty disappointed. e.g.

- The vast majority of saber hits are one hit kills.
- 0.001% of saber attacks actually hit.
- There are only blasters available, which almost never penetrate Jedi defense. Thus gunners would be unable to defeat jedi. So no guns FFA.
- Only darkside characters could use a saberstaff.
- Lightside could not use force push/pull on another living character, but darkside could.
- There would be no guns FFA since Jedi don't carry guns.
- Gunners couldn't use force.
- No first person view.
- No powerups.
- Required fatigue meter.
- Once killed cannot respawn.
- Damage handicaps player.
- No CTF.
- Explosives should take out buildings.
- Only carry a couple of weapons at a time.
- The game would not have MP since the dialog and atmosphere deviate so much from the films. There are no gay lamerz in Star Wars.

You get the idea. Sure, some of the examples are contrived, but I'm just trying to show that movies and games are completely different mediums, and different goals. Like it or not, some things that work for movies don't for games, and vice versa.


Thats interesting. What you have to consider s control. You are in a sense arguing that reality sucks. What would be better then to control a saber in reality and fight with friends. Well if you think anything is better then that, then I have no business arguing with you. But if you indeed think that would be truly amazing then you can perhaps take vantage of my perspective.

It is a game. Yes. This is why we require extra luxury and general aids to help facilitate this lack of physical control, and sense. We also have protocols in place (as you mentioned), that help improve gameplay, because the reality is, we ARE NOT ACTUALLY THERE wielding sabers ourselves.

However, as games become more technically advanced, more and more of these factors that hinder our influence of the motions depicted by our screens, our 'control' weaken and even vanish which leads to steps closer and closer to truly feeling as if you are wielding the saber yourself. If you think games and movies have no business with eachother or that they are essentially always different and should remain that way, then sir I would completely disagree, and would have to say you are not of the perspective of the innovator.


Making a game too close to the movies will inevitably sacrifice gameplay and fun. My previous comment ment that I want (and for sure many others) want a game with good gameplay first and foremost, not a game that is an exact recreation of the movies.


I think you have your mind set in the world of JEDIKNIGHT 2 (ie. quake engine), and tweaks applied to it. Try and let your mind grasp an entirely different level of control. Still the same mouse and keyboard movement, but think it more advanced and one with essentially a greater degree of control.

A great and simple analogy of this "EVOLUTION OF CONTROL" might be the game Splinter cell. You might notice the superb animation. Moreever you may notice (if you've played it of course), that you can scroll your mouse to achieve not only a slow walk, and quick jog speed, but an intermediate pace setting with animation that is cleanly blended and a good balance of both the slow and fast pace.

Now imagine adding 2 more paces, and maybe 4 more paces, and eventually adding animation so dynamic that it seemingly integrates (as in calculus), all intermitten motions giving you extreme control, and thus allowing you to better navigate based on a particular situation. It is this innovation that can make ANY GAME great, and it is this evolution of games that may be forseen. As a game developer said on XGR (Xtreme Gaming Radio) "soon we will be playing movies".
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Or perhaps better gameplay will. If more realism was really the driving force in enjoyment for games, most FPSs would have died out a long time ago. They most certainly haven't.


Now your jumping ahead. Your going from a game full of aids and help, to a game with NO AIDS, and NO first person view? Take it slowly and things can come into perspective. Why would FPS's die if realism was popular. Of the various styles of games FPS's seem to me to be the most condusive to a realistic environment, and best suited to convey a realistic feel. So in support to my perspective fps's are successful. But then again, this is a weak argument as many game styles are successful. So I cannot pursue it, simply reject it.


But realism is not a prerequisite for being fun, nor does realism guarruntee fun.


True, but one must not discount realism (and when I say realism I mean reality in action and not reality in context, like physics for example, but not everything must be tactical ops or some real shooter, fantasy is still extremely appealing) and its possible implementation as a tool to enhance the level of entertainment a game provides. An environment that better resembles and reacts (ie. breaking walls and lamps upon impact perhaps) will definately bring more then a static unrealistic environment (although its success with its player is definately dependent on the way it is utilized, it may possibly be a burdon, but it could also be brilliant if it is done correctly)
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Really? I have a hard time believing that Ep4 Obi-Wan vs. Vader represented a better view of saber fighting than those in the prequels. Not to mention that Lucas has stated that the whole point of the Ep1 battle was to show what Jedi could do in their prime, as opposed to fights between old men and cripples. If that is the basis for realism a game will involve tapping some sticks while chatting with each other. Sounds like fun to me... :)


Seems like you conveniently forgot about LUKE AND VADER whose battle is of a far greater (imo) demonstration of a jedi's perception of battle, and caution. At this time we have jedi who are extremely strong, granted luke is still starting out, but he is nevertheless quite tough. Battles here demonstrate both the jedi's ability to use the force and predict what to do, but also don't go so far as to indicate the blatant coreography.

At times episode 1 and 2 do similar things with combat so that it just seems more believeable, that the jedi are using powers of their mind to fight rather then stepping in a pre determined sequence, particularily Dooku and Obi-wan. But there are times when the dancing is just too much (additional spins and twirls that are synchronized, and basically frills, you will see alot of this in ep3 from the looks of some trailer footage).
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How so? Obi-Wan versus Maul is so fast that at first glance it is hard to tell what is happening. To me, at least, JO/JA seem just about right. At least the way I play :)


Wow, are you kidding me? The movies in ep1 are fast and really enjoyable to watch. But I can easily tell each and every step and swing that is taken, it is very clear. This combination of clarity and speed is evident since it is REALITY! Obi is actually swinging and he knows what to do, he doesn't have saber stances with pre-defined attacks. So this level is ESSENTIALLY inachieveable at least for now, as games cannot be as free and close to reality as is there, but nevertheless they are progressing to something along these lines (albeit slowly).


You seem to be looking for something like KOTOR. It sounds like exactly what you are asking for. It gives you much more realistic looking saber and blaster fights. A FPS is not the genre to provide really accurate lightsaber combat.


Again you are putting a cap on your imagination, confining ideas, restricting evolution. You must believe the impossible is achieveable somehow. KOTOR has its own extrodinary flaws as well (people don't wait until you swing, or stand in front of each other and don't move while they are making moves, moreover the player control of combat is nill, it is semi turn based and basically click to attack, the computer will perform the intricacies of the attack for you) but it is an incredible game in a different sense, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.

How do you propose to have a FPS have more realistic fights anyway? Here are some issues that need to be resolved:

1. How do you enforce no running and jumping in a FPS saber fight?

There are many options to this and all your questions that designers will eventually find suited to them (as games like jediknight evolve and go from engine to engine).

One idea would be to first have movement acceleration, so you cant strafe dance side to side, but when you push a direction you may start slow for a brief moment, then slowly ramp up speed (like reality, you can't just run in one direction then suddenly in a split second run in the other direction, you have to slow down, stop, change directions, speed up, run. Jumping could be connected to a constant use or physical force pool that governed basic jedi movement while a seperate pool was responsible for force. These are then scaled individually as desired for the best use.

2. Guns vs. Sabers
Yes this is quite a problem. But it can be solved with innovation. Although what I might say could sound unattainable or foolish, only time will reveal the possibilities of programmers and designers.

Here I would say 100% manual blocking. Obvious not to difficult of blocking but tied with saber control which is a HUGE ISSUE. My vision is that of manual mouse saber control, but still regulated with certain yet deep and branching variety of animations. It is complex to explain so I will simply say that manual block would force jedi's to take their time and use their own SKILL to block blaster shots. It would also force mercs to be agressive and break the jedi's ability to block or outshoot their deflection ability (precisely like the jedi master shot off the genoshian balcony by jango in ep2),

3. Force Users vs. Non-Force users.
How do bounty hunters do in the movies against jedi? Pretty damn good don't they (boba, jango, and also imo the greatest bounty hunter Calo Nord [from kotor] who could probablly kick the crap out of an avg jedi). When they have the skill and the mechanisms to fight (and experience/knowledge), they can perform quite well. But again this comes to the realistic implementation. Jedi should use force powers extremely sparingly so as to achieve these kinds of epic battles that seem a good fight. Again one reality system depends on another and so on. It is a big web that must be strongly linked or fail all together.

4. Damage and Killing
This issue is really up to the developer and the context of the game. As I said earlier don't just JUMP to an ALL OUT REALITY GAME (like the game that will corrupt itself if u get killed so u can never play again). But instead take smaller steps to something more and more real.

Again, immobilizing and damage might be critical to delivering an interesting and immersive experience. The other thing you have to consider is that this isn't the JEDI KNIGHT we have now with some 1 hit damage mod. This is a whole different system, one that perhaps delivers the greater realistic control that would warrant physical damage and immobilizing (as it may happen less often if 2 players are of similar skill and are able to defend and attack well, and like the movies basically endure the battle, and suffer the consequence of their defeat). When you bring all these components of reality together your mindset completely changes from that of simple 'a game' and moreover the jediknight experience in its current form.

I hope my post may have changed your way of thinking about our debate slightly, it is only a bit of what I try and conceive in my mind. A better gaming experience is always ahead, their are almost no limits.