O by the way, when I asked people what they wanted, they told me that they wanted something good enough that it could be popular, so that they could play it with other people. They want it to be good. Point blanc. Razor asked me to post both my ideas and theirs, that was one of theirs, dont be mad at me cause you future audience wants something that will want them to be your future audience... LOL wow you guys are funny.
Ok, guys, let's not get defensive here, we're all here to make the mod better, even if our opinions differ.
Yes, I did ask Gota to post here instead of MSNing everything to me. I'd prefer to have a group discussion instead of something solo. Plus, I've been damn busy lately trying to juggle my two current jobs and do OJP stuff at the same time. That's a lot of plates to spin, so I can't really afford to be distracted by Gota's suggestioning in real time.
Secondly, we are doing this for fun and for ourselves. If I wanted to be popular, I'd mod for Battlefield or Half-Life or create JKA^3, the admin mod to kill all other admin mods by not sucking. That being said, I would like to have people play and enjoy our mod, simply because the more the merrier.
As such, what do you mean by flare? Are you like talking better graphics/maps or like high profile game additions like bots that can play siege or ledge grab?
And, finally, Gota, please try to keep your comments more on topic instead of jumping off onto tangents, you literally took two posts to even get to your suggestions.
lol, what i meant by flare wasnt making graphics better, i meant stuff like ledge grabbing, the new bots etc.
The main reason i wanted more people to play is cause itd be fun to play ojp with a lot of people all the time, rather than a few people some of the time.
From what I gathered, people wouldnt mind playing it as long as they had a good reason to do so, basically what they said is that if you can make sabering better everyone would at least try the mod once. They just wanted that first time to hook them. Having something better is what we all want, I'm not saying that the creators should bend to everyone's will and compromise what they want, but I do think that they should get input from more people so that they can have a few new views. What you want is what they want, they just want you to give it to them.
Razor fixed the collision checks, that alone is something that EVERYONE wants, force dodge is something else that EVERYONE wants, they just want it controllable so that some skill to some degree is behind using it.
The product is there, the public just wants to help make it better.
Again I did mention the compulsive disorder I think I have, lol (when i get focused on something and serious about it, I go ALL OUT)
Anyways enough of that, lets get back to the suggestions, someone told me about a game called die by the sword (i think) and said the control was better, does anyone know what that was and if it is possible.
O and razor what was your mouse sabering idea again, sounded pretty good but dont remember details.
Originally posted by Gotaiken
Anyways enough of that, lets get back to the suggestions, someone told me about a game called die by the sword (i think) and said the control was better, does anyone know what that was and if it is possible.
O and razor what was your mouse sabering idea again, sounded pretty good but dont remember details.
Trust me, I played Die by the Sword and while it technically gave you more control, the control system was so sloppy that you lost more than you gained.
As for mouse sabering, I've explained it multiple times. Use the forum search feature to something on it. You could also try searching the Masters of the Force forums as well.
Razor fixed the collision checks, that alone is something that EVERYONE wants, force dodge is something else that EVERYONE wants, they just want it controllable so that some skill to some degree is behind using it.
Beyond whining about it and/or suggesting that it be made a button (which is so impractical that I'm not even going to talk about it), I've yet to here any suggestions on how to fix it.
lol, how about making it so that it costs in dodge, however much hp the hit takes. So if you get a 50 hp hit, you lose 50 dodge, but then dodge needs to be slowed down.
Well, I tried that before in MotF. It works ok, but I felt the damage was inconsistant enough that it made judging how much Dodge you had felt impossible.
Secondly, what exactly do you mean by "slower"?
You shouldnt be judging dodge if its a free escape that you dont have to worry about applying, unless its skillfully used it should just be a "thank god, i thought i was screwed" sort of thing.
And by slowed down i mean the bar, the dodge bar should regenerate slower, but we can do that already.
I don't think you understood what I meant. The idea is that dodge should be a constant measure of how much flak you can take before you die.
With the direct damage to dodge system, I felt that wasn't the case. In addition, it was not realistic since, while a missile does a lot of damage, the difficult to dodge (at least a direct hit) is probably about the same as dodging a speeding saber.
true, very true, then how about 50 per dodge, something high enough so that breaking through someones dodge doesnt become the main part of sabering, and ive never seen any of the jedi do that in the movies.
It's already set to 30. The thing is that we haven't touched the saber damage system or completed the block system either. Give it time.
I still need to add in block positions to cover a greater area. Thats the main reason they get through right now I beleive. Its also the reason why the saber spazzes so bad when blocking gun shots.
well i just got finished play MB2 for the first time, and i got some ideas.
How about you use that defensive offensive mode they implemented.
You hold down block and you go to walking speed, defense goes up, etc etc.
Also you could use the stamina bar as well as the dodge bar, or one or the other, instead of having force go down when you attack, it takes from stamina. Only when your in block mode can you get to dodge, and each dodge costs half the bar.
stamina = Force = fatigue as is. Do I really need to change the HUD icon to show that?
I've been a big fan of Mtof in the JO days, but I haven't gotten the chance to tried out any of the OJP stuff yet, so i aplogize if this seems like a stupid question....
since the movment of the upper body is affected by mouse look, the angle, height and position of the attack will come out differently as well, now from what i've read about the saber blocking system, the blocking/parrying animation is based on the type of attack, eg left swing, digianol swing etc right? so wouldn't it look strange if some one is doing a side swing while looking down and the other person is blocking by holding his/her saber to the left/right side but absolutly misses?
Actually this is the system used by KotOR, but unfortunately, it just won't work unless you lock the player position. Which is somewhere I don't think we should go.
wouldn't it be better if you do lock the player position??
Well, if we did that, you'd just be attached to the other player while taking swings at each other. I don't think a good idea outside of saberlocks and grapples.
razor what determines what the specific attack is after the block animation.
It's based on whatever block position you're in.
can you change the way its done (so you dont have to press attack after block to do it)
Sure, I think I could do it.
well i got an idea but it depends on whether or not your willing to change the blocking system.
It's already been established that I'm planning on changing the blocking system.
yay, ok ill have my idea up in a sec, thinking it out.
Sabering system
Saber control Method
Offense
Normal attack
How to do? = tap attack
What Happens = you attack normally
Combo
How to do? = hold attack along with the proper directional keys
What Happens = you combo
Stop Attack
How to do? = tap attack during an attack
What Happens = you stop the attack
Turn attack
How to do? = Hold the action button (like it is now)
What Happens = you turn from your attack by pivoting into another attack
Defense
Block
How to do? = hold the alt attack button
What Happens = you hold out your saber trying to block incoming attacks, by determining skill, how far away the saber is in relation with your body, speed at which your moving forward as a negative, speed at which you move back as a positive, crouching is a negative, walking is a positive, running is a negative (though running back is a positive), jumping is a slight negative
Dodge
How to do? = if you didn’t get the block even though you tried you have a chance to dodge, based on skill and whether or not you have the dodge to do the dodge. The dodge payment is a 4th of the damage.
Manual Defense Counter
How to do? = After a blocking animation the ability to attack presents itself, simply tap attack after a block
What Happens = you attack out of the blocking animation (gotta enable the ability to do all attacks out of any blocking animation)
So, exactly what would be be granting over the current system?
Originally posted by Gotaiken
Sabering system
Saber control Method
Offense
Normal attack
How to do? = tap attack
What Happens = you attack normally
Combo
How to do? = hold attack along with the proper directional keys
What Happens = you combo
Stop Attack
How to do? = tap attack during an attack
What Happens = you stop the attack
Turn attack
How to do? = Hold the action button (like it is now)
What Happens = you turn from your attack by pivoting into another attack
Defense
Block
How to do? = hold the alt attack button
What Happens = you hold out your saber trying to block incoming attacks, by determining skill, how far away the saber is in relation with your body, speed at which your moving forward as a negative, speed at which you move back as a positive, crouching is a negative, walking is a positive, running is a negative (though running back is a positive), jumping is a slight negative
Dodge
How to do? = if you didn’t get the block even though you tried you have a chance to dodge, based on skill and whether or not you have the dodge to do the dodge. The dodge payment is a 4th of the damage.
Manual Defense Counter
How to do? = After a blocking animation the ability to attack presents itself, simply tap attack after a block
What Happens = you attack out of the blocking animation (gotta enable the ability to do all attacks out of any blocking animation)
Now I dont know much coding but this seems like it would be more trouble than its worth. although dodging is a good Idea you would need new animations for different kinds of dodges.
lolololol
this is basically how the system already is, no real coding to do, just switch a few things around.
can you make the saber at all times deadly, no matter what, cause during the spinning right turn of the staff, when the saber is spun, that should be able to hit something.
Yes, but that would piss people off.
I've discovered during the course of gameplay, the saber blades tend to touch other players weither you like it or not. Normally they are just nicks due to the way the animation don't deform in real time due to physics (that's something that beyond the scope of the current engine).
In fact, this occurs subtly enough that the players never notice unless they are really paying attention.
Anyway, the point is that the we can't make the saber lethal 100% of the time since these nick hits would instantly kill other players.
then can you make just those type of animations attackable. its only a few of them.
so that the turning animation counts as an attack animation so that the spinning saber can hit something
play the game, get a staff, hold right and attack, the part where the saber is spinning in the air, that should be hittable.
Right, well, I beleive that's already the case.
just thought about this one, the turning speed (all sabers) can you up it, to make the turning more fluid like a real turn.
also i was thinking about making some sort of pivoting attack possible, not sure if it can be done, but just a thought.
Originally posted by Gotaiken
just thought about this one, the turning speed (all sabers) can you up it, to make the turning more fluid like a real turn.
I agree there, the spin animations do need to be sped up.
big request razor, can you add all the sabering stuff, like sped up turning animations, tweak the indivdual saber speeds, etc. in the next build, im not sure on the coding but i think that things like that should be the easiest to do.
the reason i ask is because its the quickest way to boost up the beta, and itll give all the testers a feel of how the game will be, that way people can voice their opinions on what needs to be changed and such.
Its also easier than adding all the other non important stuff (ledge grabbing) and the essentials (in my opinion) should be focused on first. And the most essential is the way the sabers are handled, and you can change them the quickest.
Another idea i had was, can you make cvars for the indivdual attacks, regarding their speed, and each tester could make their changes and we all post are collective opinions as to what the actual speeds should be. (this isnt really that important, just an idea)
Its also easier than adding all the other non important stuff (ledge grabbing) and the essentials (in my opinion) should be focused on first. And the most essential is the way the sabers are handled, and you can change them the quickest.
We do things based on what we feel like working on. Secondly, the saber system is a massive undertaking, so expecting it "done" in the next release is pretty unreasonable.
The reason I started working on the ledgegrab was because Keshire had figured out the animations system and we needed a test bed to make sure it worked. In addition, other people were actually contributing material, that's a pretty big deal so those types of projects normally take presidence.
Another idea i had was, can you make cvars for the indivdual attacks, regarding their speed, and each tester could make their changes and we all post are collective opinions as to what the actual speeds should be. (this isnt really that important, just an idea)
Nope, we're not XMod. :) However, I might occasionally provide a test cvar or two to allow people to tweak things.
I understand that expected a completed mod is unreasonable. :D
Its just that I feel that doing the basics, since they can be done the fastest and easiest, should be the number 1 priority, you could tweak the saber speeds, turn speed etc in a relatively very short time.
Other request, can you give me a url to the enhanced mod, i deleted mine by accident and wiped the recycle bin later in the day. :rolleyes:
You could do the saber speeds and turn speeds then. ;)
The Enhanced distro is up at the website (
http://ojp.jediknight.net).
movie battles blocking system is much more effecient then the current one in ojp, i say we use that.
after some vigorious playtesting i must honestly say that the mb2 blocking is much more effecient.
Ok, my opinion is as follows.
The Good:
- I like the way you can either manually set block position or have what basically is an autoblock. However, even with the autoblock = walking concept, there doesn't seem to be a need to have autoblock be a seperate button. You could just have it be whenever you're walking.
- The blocks don't have the spaz saber condition of the OJP system. I'm guessing this is due to the block system having a different block radius but I don't really know.
- I like the look of the micro lock stuff.
- I also like the attempt at getting the players to not just spam attacking. However, since there doesn't seem to be an disadvantage to losing all your BP, I don't think it's really done yet.
The Bad:
- There doesn't seem to be much benefit to manually blocking at least in it's current form.
- micro lock don't seem to lock the players in place so it makes it looks like their animations are just jammed.
The Ugly:
- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.
how bout this, auto block is always on, for cosmetic reasons. if a saber touches your saber but doesnt do any damage you block. with proper microlocking this will look nice. the walking concept makes sense and should be used.
manual blocking is pointless so take it out.
btw i was thinking, if you make z targetting you could do mouse sabering pretty easily.
Well in the System's defense :D :
- There doesn't seem to be much benefit to manually blocking at least in it's current form.
With Manual Blocking you can disarm the opponent of his/her saber. During battles, losing your saber mostly means dead.
- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.
True, this happens with bots. I would suggest playing it online, as that's where it truly comes to it's justice. Players do not perform the same ''teleporting'' as bots do. And it is intended to be played online afterall.
However, even with the autoblock = walking concept, there doesn't seem to be a need to have autoblock be a seperate button. You could just have it be whenever you're walking.
The main consideration here is button placement. The control system needs to work when playing either gunner or Jedi.
When playing as a gunner, you dont' want walk as one of the mouse buttons (this is discounting people with 3-7 button mice - I think it's safe to say the average buttons are 2...). So walk will be a keyboard key most likely...
The most natural place for the 'block' button as a Jedi, however, is the right mouse button. Trying to manipulate the walk keyboard button and the directional keys during an intense duel adds unnessesary complication...
And at the end of the day, our use of the right mouse button for saber defense has not caused one complaint. People have no problem having saber throw on another key - so I think this point is pretty mute anwyay...
However, since there doesn't seem to be an disadvantage to losing all your BP, I don't think it's really done yet.
You can still defend yourself even with no BP's. BP's are really more accurately a backup - i.e. if you miss a block, your BP's can save you and therefore prolong the duel a little bit.
They can also allow you to have a limited block ability while running.
But the fact is if someone was able to block exceptionally well (with block button held), that player would be able to survive without BP's for quite a bit.
..and of course this does still cut down spam attacking since to block without BP's, you HAVE to use your block button, which means you can't just constantly attack.
...well, this is the princple anyway. There are a couple of problems with this imp. in B15, but we are sorting them in the next build. SO dont' get me wrong - there is still more work to do on our saber system (some of it is already done and is waiting to come out in the next Build release) but I just wanted to clear those couple of things up...
- For some weird reason, I keep seeing bots teleport around occasionally when they get hit.
Yeah, this is a wierd one. As Dacks has already said, it isn't a massive concern for us, since we are prodominantly an online mod - but I will get to the bottom of that one eventually. I have a suspicion it may be to do with damage knockback - but it;s only affecting bots for some reason... :confused: