Sorry if this offends however I was thinking how many people would rather the DF MOD be ported over to Jedi Academy, although the improved Lightsabre combat won't help it in the slightest, overall it maybe better for the MOD if it did go with the newer game, I vote yes.

Voting no defies logic entirely. Yes.

If there are no technical advantages I vote no because there's no Mac version of Jedi Academy even announced yet, so not doing it for JO would risk delaying or preventing the mod's availability on the Mac. If the mod is completed for JO it will likely get ported to JA anyway, but the reverse is less likely. Therefore completing it for JO will ensure its ultimate playability for the maximum number of fans.

i vote no because i dont see why, maybe when it is done it can be ported over but it was started on JO and should be completed for JO

I vote no because DFMod should be released for JO and ported to JA.

It all depends on how good JA is at mod support, if Lucasarts releases the source for JO SP, then I think its the better bet if they don't do the same for JA. On the other hand, if they never release an SDK for JO SP, and JA has better SP mod support, then I would think that JA is the better bet. Its still a bit early to say.

Well, I'm not sure. I don't know if the potential improvements of JA are good enough to garner a switch to it. The mod won't have saber action (unless you cheat;) ) and the weapons have been changed and won't look or act like JO's or JA's. JA, from what I gather, seems to focus more on saber combat and force powers. Dark Forces never had those elements. Besides, the team has worked so long for it on JO that they might as well finish it for JO. I have no problems with them porting it to JA afterwards, though.

JA SP support for mods is supposed to be expanded greatly. Right now the team is trying to figure out where to start with scripting and AI, where as JA already has AI and ICARUS II right in MP! Please, tell me, what is the point of recoding scripting and AI for JO MP, resulting in a really poor quality mod, when you could just switch to JA? It's not like anyone in the community is going to keep playing JO or modding for it when JA comes out, there's really no point. JO was like a test run, and JA is more like the final product.

Also, a Mac version of JO wasn't announced until months after the game was released, I see no reason why JA should be different.

Originally posted by Emon
[...]resulting in a really poor quality mod, when you could just switch to JA?[...]
DFMOD will not be that much better because of using JA and not much worse using JO. Simply different.

And it is not like that we just move a switch and "voila, now DFMOD runs in JA". We don't know yet anything about JA. Icarus II? Fine! But who knows how it works except Raven, eh!?
We simply don't want to wait (and waste time) until JA is released so we continue working with JO.

Originally posted by Emon
[...]JO was like a test run, and JA is more like the final product.[...]
Therefore Q3 was a test run for Q3A and JK was a test run for MotS? Hahaha :p
When JO was released, it was its own final version!
Certainly there is always something to improve :D
If Raven decided to reuse it and to improve it for JA, good for us. But they could have done something completely different and then we couldn't even think of "switching" the MOD to it.

yeah they could have used one of these new engines to get better graphics like the ut2003 engine or something but it probably doesnt take as long to make the game when they are using the same engine

Yes push it back to Jedi Academy.No one will probley play Outcast for a long time because every one will be with Academy.

Originally posted by Emon
JA SP support for mods is supposed to be expanded greatly. Right now the team is trying to figure out where to start with scripting and AI, where as JA already has AI and ICARUS II right in MP! Please, tell me, what is the point of recoding scripting and AI for JO MP, resulting in a really poor quality mod, when you could just switch to JA? It's not like anyone in the community is going to keep playing JO or modding for it when JA comes out, there's really no point. JO was like a test run, and JA is more like the final product.

Also, a Mac version of JO wasn't announced until months after the game was released, I see no reason why JA should be different.

Personally I hope everything Emon is saying comes exactly true and JA makes modding much simpler for us. The coding/scripting issue is really critical to our success/failure and if JA can move us along in the right direction then we'll definately make the cut over to that product. We won't be losing any of our work so far since we have been wise about which assets we make now and which ones we don't.

More updates as I learn more about JA.

I for one really don't have a lot of interest in Jedi Academy. It looks like it's based off of one of JO's greatest mistakes. I don't see a lot of promise in a new game based around a fighting system that Raven improved by continually making it worse.

At this point I'm not really swayed into buying JA. If it was switched over right now, I probably wouldn't play the mod. So, I would vote no.

If it really did help in making the mod better I'd say sure, but until it actually comes out with the support that people claim it will have, I'll simply consider it hearsay.

Of course JO is its own final version. My point is that JO was, in some people's eyes, a screwup, that was never fixed. A lot of people think that JA has fixed a lot of these issues. JA was started almost immediatly after JO was done, and after it was decided to make it a full game, LEC didn't really see a need to let Raven patch JO anymore.

Also, I don't think you should stop working on the DF mod for JO just because a switch to JA would be better. All the media and resources can be ported without a problem. We just found out from Raven that models from JO can be plugged into JA, and it will convert them automatically! Even the coding, perhaps if discarded if a JA switch happens, won't be in vein, since I'm sure a lot of experience will be gained.

One of the main reasons I have faith in Raven on JA is that I've spoken to James Monroe and Mike Gummelt, two of the main programmers for both games (Monroe being lead programmer), on many occasions. Both of them have told me they realize the problems in JO, and as much as they wanted to fix it, they never were able to because they were being held back by LEC (probably LEC thought JA would just replace JO). They also acknowledged the problems with SP editing, and Mike told me he wanted to externalize a lot more data and make it more like SoF2 (which has fantastic SP editing), but didn't have the time. With JA being built of the already completed JO, there's a high probability we won't have this trouble anymore. And in several JA interviews, it's been said that editing capabilities have been expanded.

Thanks for the information Emon, sounds interesting!
While playing JO, I did not notice any bugs except the worlds were still sterile, I'd like to see more life, dust, trash, misc stuff on the streets of Bespin :D

I'm curious about JA but I'm also very patient, there is no hurry to decide anything about switching yet :p

I can't say i've ever bought a game strictly to play a mod, but if DF is released for JA. I just might. I my opinion, wait until JA is released and you can actually try out the new mod kit. If, it helps, go for it. If not, don't. Also after JA is released, Raven or LA might release an SDK for JO.

Yeah, this is basically our intention! :)
Make a good MOD to let you buy JO or JA just because of it :D

Originally posted by Emon
Voting no defies logic entirely. Well, not if you don't want to / can't afford to purchase JA when it comes out....

I'm somewhat leery of JA, mostly because it seems based upon JO's saber combat system. I didn't think it was too bad when it first came out, but I agree with Hap, the patches just made it worse.

I know right now that I won't buy it for myself unless I get to play a demo or such before hand, or I know through reviews and articles that the system has improved. I've got too much I already want to buy and play to spend 30-50 dollars.... just so I can be disappointed.

The thing about patches is that Raven wanted to continue to patch to fix the problems, but LEC wouldn't let them. Perhaps partly because they saw no point since JA was being developed.

Well, they never should've created a patch that made it worse in the first place....

I can half-way understand the view on halting further patches, but it's also bad customer service to stop fixing an existing product because you have a newer more expensive product coming down the road...

That's kind of what Microsoft does.. and we all know how we feel about Microsoft. :D

Raven didn't actually know about the critical problems in 1.03 at first, e.g. the backstab. They were going to fix it right away, but stupid LEC almost didn't let them. One guy at LEC really pushed for the patch and 1.04 happened, which although not perfect, is a godsend from 1.03 (on a side note, 1.04 is like perfect with server tweaks).

Yeah, you can blame LEC for halting support. I dunno why. :( Maybe this will be different.

They should have just left the sabers as they originally were, none of the patches improved them in the slightest.

Who knows, maybe JA might be worth it, but I can only base my opinion on what I can see, and so far what I've seen isn't very reassuring,...

:(

Did you ever play JO SP? The SP saber combat was amazing!

Yeah, but it's been a while,... lost the cd a number of months ago, and just recently found it back behind the desk.

The saber fighting was good, but then again, I'm sure it's always more gratifying against an enemy who doesn't dodge very well,... ;)

But the fact that the saber fighting was good to start with made me wonder why they started patching it for multiplayer in the first place. I thought the game was fine the way it was. I just don't want to be coerced into buying another game where the patches released for it, end up restricting the game play to the point where I won't enjoy it anymore.

Single player is fairly good, but the moves and stances seemed lacking at times. Could've used more/better moves.

Playing JO multiplayer now gives me that "Nerf Bat" feeling in the middle of combat. It may have just been my experience, but after the patches, 90% of the people I played with began to use heavy stance... and the sabers seemed substantially weaker.

I ran with medium stance, chasing after someone for a minute or two.. swinging at their back every chance I got... or when I tried to get the drop on someone who had a Disruptor, dropped down, did several strafing strikes.... and they managed to escape.... and the pings are usually under 100, so it's doubtful to be lag.

But before the patch.. it was fine. The saber seemed a bit weak at first, but it was decent enough... Maybe now I'm having that same problem with JO as I did with JK (not all of my swings registering), but for me the patches didn't seem to make sabers better... just weaker so that people could make their duels last longer....

If they go along that method for "improving" the game for JA, I sure as heck don't want it...

Originally posted by Reclaimer
Yes push it back to Jedi Academy.No one will probley play Outcast for a long time because every one will be with Academy.

Everyone said this of Jedi Knight witrh the release of JO. And yet the JK community is still going strong. Not as strong as before, but still strong. I think this mod should be released in JO. The engine JO is running on is already a few years old. in fact, a lot of the files in the pk3s there are simply modifications to one of Raven's other games, Elite Force. I cant count how many times the word borg showed up in there. If Raven uses the same engine, then JA should be more of an expansion pack than a full fledged game of its own.

I think you should stay on JO, if only to pass the time. If in fact you decide to make the switch over, release what you have as a public beta, go work on the mod over on JA, but just make sure you come back to JO to finish the job.

with all the discussion about the JO patches and saber combat, one thought comes into my mind: we really have no idea what the sabers are going to be like. from what ive heard, some of the combos will be changed, so who knows about normal stance moves. and with the addition of more force powers, weapons, and dual and double-bladed lightsabers, who knows how the game will be affected. i know a major part of the game is saber combat, and that was an important part of the multiplayer; however, i for one will not be getting the game for MP at all. i think its just a waiting game until it or a demo is released.

anyway, i say Yes, based on the supposed improvements in JA SP editing (unless JO SP code is released...). but it really doesnt matter to me, as i will have both games.

yeah same here, i will probably have both games but i just want to get this mod and whichever one is quicker to get released on that is the one i want

Except, the thing is, JO has a lot more advanced features for modders to take advantage of over Elite Force.

The thing with JK and JO is that JK was developed by LEC back in 1996 and 1997 on a totally different engine for JO. JA is the same engine with some heavy modifications, by the same developer only a year later. The chance that JA will replace the JO community entirely is rather high. Raven isn't stupid, and LEC is only marginally stupid at times, it's also unlikely that they will release another "screwup" like JO.

It doesn't really both me whether the DFMod is released for JO or for JA. I will also have both games.

Judging by some of the feeling in this thread towards JA, though, some people might not get that game, and would be disappointed if the Mod was not released for JO.

Emon's right in that models and other things will be converted automatically to be playable in JA, which would obviously help in porting the Mod across. However, it's not clear about the changes on the coding side. I would have to assume at least some of the coding is different in JA. On the other hand, if Raven are taking an extra effort to improve support for modders on JA, it may very well turn out to be a better option.

If recent estimates of the release date are anything to go by, we won't have long to wait to find out. A September release seems likely for JA, and that's not too far away.

I just think the mod team needs to assess what's best for them to get the mod completed. :)

Originally posted by StormHammer
I just think the mod team needs to assess what's best for them to get the mod completed. :)

Exact. We have to finish all the ceiling/floor/wall textures, the player/ennemy/NPC and other world models and the according model skins, and most especially the maps still need lot of effort. Not to count the parallel work of the coders to include the weapons and their special behavior.

I don't think this all can be done until september, but if JA really comes out that soon, the SDK will certainly take a few weeks more to be released, and the coders will have to analyse the code.

Just have to wait and see.

JK2 Files just said...

"We have received confirmation from LucasArts that the release date for Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (or JK3) is September 16th, 2003. "

http://www.jk2files.com/file.news?ID=5663)

I'm not so sure it actually IS called JK3 in any way, shape or form, seems like its just been assumed thats what its called when it isn't...ah well, doesn't really matter anyway.

Originally posted by Fracman
Therefore Q3 was a test run for Q3A
i hope you're joking here.

This was a reply to Emons post above where he claimed "JO was a test for JA", simply following his strange logic :D
I was joking, of course!!! Please read the posts more carefully, ok!? ;)

No, my PC sucks big time and I can hardly run JO. I'm getting JA for XBOX and I can't get mods through Live!, only official content :(

So, port only AFTER you complete what you started.

And you're thinking, "wtf, I thought we lost this kid finally!"

Originally posted by Fracman
Please read the posts more carefully, ok!? ;)
i had read it carefully, and had just hoped you were joking. :p

Originally posted by Fracman This was a reply to Emons post above where he claimed "JO was a test for JA", simply following his strange logic :D
I was joking, of course!!! Please read the posts more carefully, ok!? ;)

You miss out on the fact that Q3 is Q3A. There's only Quake III Arena and Quake III Team Arena, which is an expansion. Nothing else.

Oh, and I was saying that since some people think LEC screwed up on JO (had problems even though it's great overall), that they are attempting to "fix" it by doing JA. So far they seem pretty successful.

Ja, ja, JA... :p (Yes, yes, JA...)
Just like Emon said above, let's wait and see...

I say no because JA is just like JO .. And what is good in JA is just the lightsabers ... THERE IS NO LIGHTSABER IN DF


------
sorry for my english :p

Hi folks,

I'm new here, please bear with me. ;)

I would vote no, because, as others here have mentioned, JA is not announced for the Mac yet, and I wouldn't be able to play the Mod if it would be JA only.

Finish it for JKII, then port it over to JA. Besides, I don't see one reason why you should start all over again just to make it JA compatible.

People still will play JKII, no matter if JA comes out.

Just my two cents.

Greetings, Andreas.

I think with the news that JO maps and models should "just load" into JA, it would be very disappointing to see work on those stop.

Originally posted by Ravensroke Ever tried "porting" something? Most of the time its easier to start anew than to "port" something over to anything.

Come back when you have some real experience on the matter.

Actually I do have some experience as a programmer. (Not recent, but some).

And porting programs from pc to mac is a huge task. The mac and windows API's are not hugely different in concept, and the big break for games programmers is that openGL is really an open standard, but still, the work involved is tremendous.

I am very skeptical of the claim that you just put a JO model in the right folder, and bingo! it works perfect, I might be wrong, but there are frequentyl major headaches involved in making things work properly.

Perhaps the Mac users can give us words of their experience using DF, JK and JO with add-on levels and MODs,
and if there is a Mac-Modder, perhaps (s)he can show the crucial points to care of...

Well, the DF stuff is ancient history but the types of problems Mac users had give some idea of the kinds of quirks that can crop up when mods cross platforms.

Out of the hundreds of DF levels (and I played almost all of them) I think only one or two would crash on the Mac and I suspect those could have been avoided with testing. There were some cosmetic glitches when designers failed to account for the fact that Mac DF ran at higher resolution than the PC DOS version but usually this only messed up custom "wait" screens while the mission was loading. Most frequently, Mac users had to do a lot of renaming of custom cutscene files and such because level authors settled on a convention of using DOS .bat files to rename files at runtime and that does nothing on a Mac. There was also a quirk in Mac DF that prevented custom opening cutscenes from loading because Mac DF would only run those cutscenes if the mission was started from the menu, and Mac DF would always just load the first mission rather than go to the menu first, so to see a custom opening cutscene Mac users would have to exit the mission and restart it from the menu.

There was, sadly, no Mac version of JK, but I imagine mod compatibility would have been similar to DF's because LucasArts' in-house ports in those days were very, very good.

JO and all Q3A-based games on the Mac seem to run mods fine, although I'm still wondering why I don't see the Crow at the end of the DF mod demo.

The main thing to remember is avoid designing or packaging mods in any kind of OS-specific executable, batch, or scripting file. Mods should be distributed and installable in a platform-neutral way. The other thing is to beta test on a Mac if possible because it's probably possible to create bugs that don't have symptoms on Windows but are bugs nonetheless.

Originally posted by Fracman
Perhaps the Mac users can give us words of their experience using DF, JK and JO with add-on levels and MODs,
and if there is a Mac-Modder, perhaps (s)he can show the crucial points to care of...

Whatever is best for the mod, and its future, is best for me.

Originally posted by Ravensroke
I am very skeptical of the claim that you just put a JO model in the right folder, and bingo! it works perfect, I might be wrong, but there are frequentyl major headaches involved in making things work properly.

I can assure you all the portability from JO to JA is exactly as it is planned. Someone even opened DeTRiTiC-iQ's Bespin Towers CTF JO map and played JA CTF with it using the leaked build.

I can, um, also assure you on such aspects... but this is not the place. PM if you're interested.

I voted no for two reasons:
1) Selfishness. I probably won't be getting JA until Christmas, so I'll be playing JO until at least then. Although I'd like to say I'll be playing it after too, we'll have to see. I know plenty of people who still play JK.
2) As has been said, it'll push the release back further. By the time completion comes, Clone Commando could be almost upon us. It could be pushed back again then for CC (as there's no sabers in DF).

Respect for whatever you guys choose - it is your mod and your work after all - but for the record, I choose no.

B.

Actually, no, it would make it easier to get things done. Much easier.