What about the Old Testament? Until 1947 the Old Testament was considered to be no more reliable than other books of antiquity. There was no scholarly basis to believe that the documents were essentially the same as those which were originally written - until the spring of 1947, when a young shepherd boy named Mohammed was out looking for a lost goat just on the west bank of the Dead Sea about eight miles south of Jericho. He came to a crevice in the rock. Not wanting to take the effort to crawl down in it to see if his goat was there, he took a large stone and threw it into the crevice. He heard the sound of shattering pottery. He climbed down into the crevice and discovered what is considered to be the most significant and remarkable find of antiquity. Down there were a number of huge clay pots which had been sealed perfectly. They had been untouched. In those pots were thousands - 40,000 fragments of literature from antiquity. One of them, the most complete, was a manuscript of the book of Isaiah. It was on a leather scroll that was 24 feet long and 10 inches high. The materials were sold to a Jewish scholar from the Hebrew University there in Jerusalem. With great interest it was shared with the literary world. The previously oldest manuscript of the book of Isaiah which existed prior to these scrolls, which have now been called the Dead Sea Scrolls, was from 900 A.D. Paleographers have dated the Dead Sea Scrolls at between 100 B.C. and 200 B.C. The scroll for Isaiah was dated at 125 B.C.
Aah, I have been waiting for a chance to pounce upon the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls:
1) Most of the scrolls were never recovered, since the explorers who were sent to excavate them used local labour, who in many cases simply snatched the scrolls and sold them to collectors on the black market.
2) What was recovered was handed down to a commission for investigation. Unfortunately, this commission had close ties to a biblical research institution that was under the complete control of the Catholic Church. The one person in that group, Allegro, who didn't have such close ties said to a friend who was planning on converting to Christianity, that when he published what the commission had found, "there will be no Christianity to worship". Next thing that happened, the Inquisition had siezed the scrolls, and Allegro was subjected to a witchhunt of historic proportions.
3) In 1991, more than forty years from the finding of the scrolls, only 10% had escaped the Inquisition's archives. How much these criminals have destroyed is anybody's guess.
Source: The Dead Sea Scroll Deciet
That's bullsh*t.
Dude, have you read what i wrote?
Roman Catholic law says that if you say you have assurance of heaven, you are damned as a heretic!!!!
John 3:16 (these are christ's words... look em up if you doubt it)
God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.
look, it says HAVE eternal life. Christ said it. Roman Catholics say you cant say that, or you are damned as a heretic.
Why is it so hard to understand???
Christ said you have assurence, they say you can have assurence or you are damned as a heretic. But Christ said you do!!! Therefore they are saying that the founder of christianity is a heratic!!!!!!!
Your point again?
Christianity is only a Jewish sect that survived because of Paul, and Judaism can be traced back to idol-worshipping as well.
Yeah, its in the bible too :p
I cant see you have read this thread.. cause i wrote why they werent christians on page 3 i think.
I seem to remember you recently talking about how you didn't even need to be in a denomination to call yourself Christian. As long as you believed in the Bible and accepted Jesus as your savior- is that not right?
Once again you havnt read what i wrote... ill need to edit this after words, so i can cut and paste the entire story :p just so you can read it...
And how do you difine spiritual person?
You know, relationship with christ
why do i even post.. you guys dont really understand. (i can say this because you say 'I do understand, BTW what is this ...???' )
You cant possible understand when you keep asking questions
Skywalker, accept and respect that you can be wrong. Yet again, even the Bible was written by people like you.
lol, never said i couldnt be wrong.. i just try not to post something unless im sure its true ;)
so don't come here and badmouth Catholocism.
Dude, it started when someone said christian's committed crimes, catholics comitted the crimes. I proved they arent christians. Granted, from the world's view, they are. If you really research there history you see that they worship old egyptain/babylonian gods.
Ill quote my entire story, ill even do some searches and see what i can find.
So homosexuality is an "error"? That's a flame, I'm afraid.
I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.
did a search.
Roman Catholic Doctrines and Practices Contradicted by the Bible
1. THE MASS
(a) A sacrifice for sins, 'vs.'-Heb. 10:11-17, 7:27; Rom. 6:9-10; Heb. 9:11-12, 22-28; I Pet. 3:18.
(b) Eating and drinking the literal body and blood of Christ. 'vs.' Mt. 24:23; Ex. 20:13; Acts 15:20; Is. 44:14-20; Acts 17:24-25, 19:26; Jn. 10:9, 15:5, 6:63; Jer. 15:16.
2. CELIBACY
Priests and nuns vow never to marry 'vs.' I Tim.. 3:2-6, 3:12, 4:1-3; Mt. 8:14; I Cor.9:5; Eph. 5:31-32; Acts 21:8-9.
3. MARY, QUEEN OF HEAVEN
Jer. 7:18, 44:17, 25.
MARY, MEDIATRIX - I Tim. 3:5; Mt.11:28; Jn. 14:13-14; I Ki. 8:39; II Chr. 6:30; Ecc. 9:6.
MARY, SINLESS - Lk. 1:46-47, 2:22-24 (a 'sin sacrifice'); Rom. 3:23, 3:10-19.
MARY, EVER VIRGIN - Mt. 1:25, 13:55-56, 12:46; Mk. 6:3; Jn. 2:12; Acts: 1:14; Mk. 3:31.
MARY, WORSHIP - Rom. 1:25; Is. 42:8; Lk. 2:48-49; Mk. 3:31-33; Jn. 2:2-4, 7:10.
MARY, CO-REDEMPTRIX - Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Rom. 5:17; I Jn. 2:1-2; Heb. 7:25; Jn. 10:1, 9; Ps.146:5, 71:5; Jer. 17:7; Joel. 3:16; I Tim. 1:1; Col. 1:27; I Pet. 1:21; Heb. 7:25.
MARY, MOTHER OF GOD -- Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 8: 19-21; Acts 1:14; Jn. 2:3-4.
4. PETER, THE ROCK
'vs.' God, Christ the Rock .. Dt. 32:3, 4, 15, 18, 31; I Sam. 2:2; II Sam. 22:47; Ps. 18:31, 28:1, 62:2, 94:22; Mt. 16:23; I Cor. 10:4; I Pet. 2:6-8; I Cor. 3:11; Acts 4:12., Eph. 2:20; Mt. 21:42.
5. NO MEAT ON FRIDAY, LENT, FAST DAYS, ETC.
'vs.' I Tim. 4:1-3; Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:20-22.
6. AURICULAR CONFESSION
'vs.' Ps. 32:5; Rev. 14:12; Lk. 18:14; Is. 55:7; Acts 8:22; Ezra 10:11; I Jn. 1:9; Ps. 32:5; I Tim. 2:5; I Jn. 2:1-2.
7. PURGATORY
'vs.' I Jn. 1:7; Heb. 1:1-3; Jn. 14:1-6; Rom. 8:38; II Tim.1:12; II Cor.5:8; Lk.23:43; Rev. 5.:91
8. ROSARY
''vs. 'Mt. 6:7.
9. SALVATION BY MERIT, WORKS, SACRAMENTS, WATER BAPTISM
'vs.' Eph. 2:8-9; Rom.10:9-13; Jn. 3:16, 3:36, 5:24; Acts 16:31; II Jn. 5:10-13; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:27, 4:2, 4:6, 11:6; Gal. 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10; Titus 3:4-7; Gal. 3:24-25; I Pet. 1:18-23.
10. ADDRESSING A PRIEST AS "FATHER"
'vs'.'Mt. 23:9.
11. MIRACULOUS MEDALS, SCAPULARS, CRUCIFIXES, IMAGES, BLEEDING HEARTS, ETC.
vs.' Ex. 20:4-5; Dt. 4:16; Is. 42:8, 44:9; Lev. 26:1; Dt. 4:23.
12. POPE AS "HEAD OF THE CHURCH"
'vs.' Eph.5:23; Col.1:18; Gal.2:11; II Cor 11:5, 12:11, 11:28; Lk. 22:24; Mt 20:25-27; Acts l5:13-19; II Thess.2:3, 2:4, 2:9-12; I Jn. 2:18: Rev. 13:18.
13. TRADITION
'vs.' Mt. 15:3; Mk. 7:7-8; Col, 3:8.
14. PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD
'vs.' II Cor. 6:2; Jn. 3:18, 3:36; Prov. 29:1; Jer. 7:16.
15. PRIESTS
'vs.' Heb. 8:4; Eph. 4:11; Heb. 4:14-15, 7:26, 8:1; Mt. 24:4-5, 23-24; 23:9-23.
16. NEGLECT OF INDIVIDUAL SCRIPTURES STUDY AND INTERPRETATION AND OBEDIENCE THERETO, AS THE SOLE RULE OF FAITH
'vs.' Isa. 8:20; Dt. 17:19; Josh. 1:8; Isa. 34:16; Jn. 5:39; Acts 17:11; II Tim. 2:15; Rom. 15:4; Ps. 119:11, 103; II Tim. 3:15-16; Col. 3:16; Ps. 119:105, 130, 72, 97.140; Jer. 15:16; Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12; Ps. 119:9 Jn. 15:3, 17:17, 20:31; Dt. 11:19; II Chr. 17:9; Mt. 22:29; Isa. 30:9; Hos. 4:6; Amos 2:4; Mk. 7:9; Rev. 22:18-19.
hmmmm... i think that speaks for itself.
Its right here if you dont believe me ;) (
http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/catholic.htm)
hmm... very interesting after doing a search i found the little book which explained most of the catholic things to me :) someone copied all the pages on the web i guess. Of course, this book didnt totally change my opionion. Back in the thread with Hotrod, i found out about catholics. I thought they were christians, but considering what they said, i changed my mind.
anyways, i didnt quote what i said, cause most of it is here ;)
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp)
I disagree with the revelation part though. I dont see how it talks about catholics. Anyways, thats where i got a lot of my info on catholics from.
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Dude, have you read what i wrote?
Yes, but why do you ignore a lot of what we have to say?
Roman Catholic law says that if you say you have assurance of heaven, you are damned as a heretic!!!!
Ok, now there's something we can work with.
See, only God knows for sure whether you are going to heaven or not. You might believe and hope you are, but it's up to God to judge you, and to see if you are worthy, no? Certainly not you.
It's like that point about you not being able to say to me that I'm going to hell. You just don't know. So, if you say that you are sure that you're going to heaven you are actually placing yourself above God - because you are obviously not qualified to know that.
Now, as to what Jesus said, what he was expressing was the Christian ideology. Yes, Catholics believe they are going to heaven if they live a good life(!) and trust in Jesus, but none of them would be so foolish as to make premature assumptions on something they have no knowledge of.
You understand now?
Once again you havnt read what i wrote... ill need to edit this after words, so i can cut and paste the entire story :p just so you can read it...
Instead of backing out of this, clarify your point.
You know, relationship with christ
That is not what being spiritual means. Look it up.
why do i even post.. you guys dont really understand. (i can say this because you say 'I do understand, BTW what is this ...???' )
You cant possible understand when you keep asking questions
Maybe, just maybe, we are asking rhetorical questions in order to make you clarify yourself a little. I understand perfectly well what you are trying to say about Catholics, but you show so little empathy that you are unable to apply this to your own religion.
Dude, it started when someone said christian's committed crimes, catholics comitted the crimes.
Yes, they have commited crimes and acted against the Bible's commands. Some of them have.
But again, so have Protestants. Is this going to be some pissing contest between Catholics and Protestants about who have done the most bad in the name Christ? Is this what you want? I don't think it is, because it's not going to prove a hoot.
I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.
Many species practice homosexuality, and they're doing just fine.
Humans, of all species, should do it more often, as we're close to suffocating this planet in our waste. Homosexuality = less children - but we're gonna do fine anyway.
homosexuality is a way of keeping the population of a species from growing so massive that it would end up wiping out the entire planet but with these homophobic laws being passed i see mankinds fate looming on the horizon.
Alright, i see what you are saying now. Very good point C'Jais. But i do know this, somewhere in the new testament it says you do have assurance. Ill possibly look it up in the morning, if i remember, because im tired right now.
Yes, but why do you ignore a lot of what we have to say?
Dont have anything to say about it ;) i dont ignore it, i read it all, most of the time more than once.
I must admit this though i was wrong in this statement:
Under Roman Catholic law, they have the right, to kill Christ, Paul, Peter, and everyone of the Apostles, and billions of people throughout history.
I posted that a while back. Assuming with out reading on my part (i got it mixed with something else, and a few days later looked it up, and found it was wrong)
Spiritual, had an experience tonight. Im not talking about ghosts here. I find the best way to teach, is through stories (examples) or personal experiences. So why dont i tell you one.... errr.. another one :) ? My mom and dad are divorcing, and shes got a BF. I wasnt too happy, weve argued and argued (they are both christians, as am i, my dad isnt :( ) anyways, i had some really bad thoughts about him. Not very christian like at all. Me and my mom got into an arguement wednesday night, i told her my thoughts, she told him. I got even more angry. So i just stayed in my room. I didnt talk her unless she talked to, and i didnt even bother to look at him. I skipped church last night, they went. I felt the holy spirit telling me to go, but i ignored him. Not the best decision in my life ;) anyways, i stayed in my room all day today. I played some old video games, stuff like that, didnt do a thing except find that stuff for you guys. Anyways, i dont know why, but at the last second i decided to go to church tonight. (Church on friday? Actually its a special meeting thing this week only. Each night, monday to sunday) I dont even know why I did, i really didnt want to. I go, and she (woman preacher) explains about her life. To cut a long story short, in the end she explained how God told her (she had been ignoring the will of the holy spirit for a long time) that if she didnt start doing his will then it was over for her. She explained how we had to give our lives up. She said you have to live for him 100%. She invited us up to the altar to pray, and seek Gods will, it was called santification i think. I thought, they do this a lot, ill just sit here and pray, like always. Then she said, if you dont come, and pray when you know you need to its only your pride standing in your way (i realised my mom had told me my pride was standing in my way the night before duringour argument, and i knew of several ways i wasnt following God) I thought about going up then, but I thought, theres like 500 people here, ill do it when i get home. Then she reminded me about a bible verse. That one, if your ashamed to show that you follow christ, He will be ashamed of you. I was like oh man, shes right. The thing that was stopping me from going up to pray was that i didnt want to in front of 500 + people. I decided, I had to, what i had to do. So I went up there, knelt down and prayed. There were like 20 people up there when i went. Next time i looked up, almost everyone was down there, just piling up behind people. Id stop, then God would remind me of another place i had fallen short, and sinned against him. I prayed more, and more. My mom was right next to me, and my sister next to her, praying. When i was done, I got up, looked at her boy friend, and continued walking. God had told me while i prayed to apoligize, i knew i was wrong. I just thought id do when i got home. Well, no big deal right? Well, then the amazing thing happend. He approached me and said, God told me to hug you. I was like whoa... and i apoligized for what i did wrong. Sign from God? Sounds like God was determined I did the right thing.
It was amazing. It made me realize, even though i am a christian, im still messing up. God has helped me out a lot, but i need to do more for him. I thought, just teaching his word would do it, but theres so much more to it than that. Wow. This why i believe in God, when stuff like this happens. Just amazing stuff. I didnt know any of this was ganna happen. I didnt even plan to go. I didnt plan to go to the altar and pray. God got me there for a reason, too many areas in my life where i doubted him, or was breaking his commands.
Whether you believe this or not, its all true. Ive just cut it way short, way, way, short.
Great story, and it's good to hear you made amends with your moms boyfriend. Sucks about the divorce.
But give yourself a little credit, man. Did it ever occur to you that maybe what you thought was god or the holy spirit telling you to do things was really your own thoughts, and it was actually you who came to the decision to go to church the second night and you who chose to go to your moms bf.
Think about it: You were angry at both of them, even though the right thing to do was pretty obvious. But you were angry, and that anger clouded your judgement. When you went to pray, you had to calm down to do so. You then focused your thoughts on the issue at hand and asked god for an answer. When you focused on the issue without the anger shadowing everything, the answer became clear and obvious.
You did a good thing there. A very good thing. Give yourself some credit and dont just lay it all on God because you happened to be in church at the time.
Thanks, but when I wasnt going up to pray, she would say something, not to me, but it applied to me, ive never met this woman before. Then when I was ganna do it later, God had spoken to him to hug me, which in turn made me apoligize, just like God had wanted in the first place.
Alright so in the end i did the right thing, but still, if it wasnt for God i probably wouldnt have. So he deserves the credit.
You think you were the only one who was feeling those feelings about not going up to pray? If you were the only one, then everybody except you would have gone up right away. There's a reason it took so long for so many people to come up.
I'm just saying that God may very well have not had a hand in it. It might be difficult to grasp, but not every amazing thing that happens in the world is an act of God. Maybe, just maybe, it's an act of humanity.
I prefer to think the latter of the two.
Just stumbled on this thread and wanted to add my two cents - although I don't want to stir things up, so I'm gonna be careful how I phrase things :) And I apologise in advance for the long post.
Skywalker - I repect the way you are standing up for your beliefs - and please don't be intimidated by people who bash you unnessesarily.
But also don't close your mind to other ideas, and I would hope you read through my post carefully, because I mainly would like to communite with you directly...
I have no intent to bash - but I will say this. I understand why people do - although I wish they would tone down and keep their arguments to reasonable debate - because going over the top doesn't help in any way to come to a conclusion on things.
Firstly, I am a total believer in the principles of scientific knowledge and coming to the truth through scientific reasoning.
There is one BIG difference between scientific reasoning and religious thinking:
When science is wrong, it is willing to admit it's wrong! In fact, it is required to admit it's wrong and alter it's hyphothosis accordingly. In this manner it continually refines it's idea on what is 'true' at any given time.
Most 'fundemental' religious thinking - however, is the total opposite. What has been decided to be 'true' in books written hundreads upon thousands of years ago - often with dubious authenticity issues - is true NO MATTER WHAT. If new evidence comes to light, the most important task for religion is to work out whether it backs your religious views, or not. If it backs it, then that's fine. But if it seems to countermine your idea of the truth in any way, then this new 'evidence' is simply a problem that somehow has to be explained away, discredited or even destroyed completely. The LAST thing religion does is actually take the evidence seriously!
Skywalker, a few posts back someone mentioned Galieo and you asked what the relavence was. I'll tell you what happened to him:
Up until the time of Galileo, the commonly excepted model of the universe was that the earth was at the centre of it and everything else orbited around it (They hadn't discovered anything outside our solar system at that point - so that meant all the planets and the sun!)
Now, Galileo (who was a devout believer as far as I'm aware) discovered that - in fact - the sun was at the centre of the solar system, and every else, including the earth, actually orbited around that.
Skywalker - I am going to mention how the catholic church tried to cover up this dicsovery. Now I know you are going to say that that was just the catholic church, and this does not count for real christians etc. And to a certain extent your right. But please bear with me - I will eventually get to explaining how this example has bearing on all of christian thinking...
Anyway - the catholic church had already officially stated that the model which put the earth at the centre of the universe was TRUE. (After all, it made sense. God made the universe, and Man and the world was his most loved and important creation - so it made sense it would be at the centre of the universe...)
If this new evidence was generally excepted, it would make the church wrong. And since the church spoke for God, it would make God wrong - which of course wasn't allowed!!
...so the solution? They locked Galileo up so that he could not spread his theories!
Pretty shocking eh?! That is an example of religion actively discouraging the discovery of TRUTH so that people's beliefs aren't comprimised.
So - that was the catholics - this has nothing to do with other 'christians' or other religions right?
Unfortunately not. History is FULL of this stuff.
And unfortunately Skywalker, you could very well be guilty of this yourself (to an extent) - quite blatently from things you have said in this thread. There are several I could pick, but probably one of the more obvious and most shocking examples would be that of homosexuality. This isn't the only thing that you've spoken about that I would take issue with, but I think it is probably one of the most relavent topics at this point in time, and one of the most serious also.
To quote you:
I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process meant for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.
I'm afraid that this comment shows you have not really made any effort to look at the avaliable evidence and make up your own mind. You are simply accepting the 'truth' you have been taught by your religion.
Let's skip over the fact that you find issue with the theroy of evolution - one of the most proven theories in science (there is quite literally mountains of proof on it's side and quite literally nothing of real note to stand in it's way) and get to the part about homosexuality being 'wrong'.
Firstly, as has been previously stated - homosexuality is naturally evident in all kinds of animal species. This has been recently verified, although the evidence has been around for a while but was often ignored or discounted because of the 'taboo' nature of the subject.
Of course - if ALL animals were 'gay', then there would be a reproduction problem!! But the tendancy to be homosexual is a minority. So therefore, most animals reproduce and evolution carries on without problem. The important point is that animals do not 'choose' to be gay - they are born that way. If you don't believe that, let's move on to point no.2:
It has been shown that a certain part of the brain (for all species - including humans) determines the sex we are attracted to. For animals that are homosexual, this part of their brain is identical in make-up to a brain of the OPPOSITE sex.
e.g. the 'sex-orientation' part of a male brain would actually be identical to the make-up of the same section of a hetrosexual female brain - and vice versa.
So - in short - from the evidence found so far - it would seem that homosexuality is not some kind of corrupted upbringing - or the devil tempting us to be a certain way. It is part of basic make-up. i.e. it's as natural to be homosexual as it is to be hetrosexual.
Now of course, new evidence could turn up tomorrow that could mean I have to shift my views. That's one of the things I have to accept as a scientific thinker. I have to realise that what I thought was 'true' today could turn out to be 'false' tomorrow! But one thing I can be sure of is that by doing so, I can be assured I am moving closer to the truth as each day passes...
Now - Skywalker - I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the evidence I have just given - if anything at all. Because this is important stuff. The world is at a turning point in regards to homosexuality. (Just to get my orientation clear, I am hetrosexual. But I believe STRONGLY that homosexuals should be given the same rights that we hetrosexuals enjoy - without quivication)
Do you want to be acting in a similar manner to the catholics who imprisoned Galileo?! I don't mean to the extreme of locking people up obviously! But in the sense of ignoring evidence that's plain to see and keeping a group of people stigmitised in the eyes of society simply because you can't let go of your beliefs?
Be aware that yourself and other 'christians' and people's of all faiths have to think long and hard about what you believe. Do you REALLY believe homosexuality is 'wrong', or are you just believeing what your told by your bible? If so - I would think LONG and HARD about that.
Because I believe saying that homosexuality is wrong IS bigoted - plain and simple. And that more and more people are getting clued up to this fact. I would urge you to think for yourself and not let words written thousands of years ago dictate your beliefs.
In this sense, this is why it is OK to 'bash' christianity as you put it. If it says that one particular group of people are morally corrupt if they engage in an activity which doesn't harm anybody else and is quite frankly no-one else's business, then christianty, or any other group who says this - does deserve to get bashed and should expect it to happen. I'm sorry Skywalker, but that is simply the way it is.
That is all. I hope I have not offended you. You sound like a totally reasonable guy, and I hope you do not think I am bashing you personally in any way. But I am concerned about your viewpoint concerning several issues raised in this thread.
I would welcome any replies and thoughts you and others have...
Well said. I, for one, would like to welcome you to the Senate Chambers.... I hope that you will continue to read and post in this and other threads...
Actually, this thread might not be open much longer... Should arguments and points continue in a circular fashion, I think it might be best for all concerned if it were closed.
Still, I think it fair to leave it open a little longer.
Either way, I welcome more well-thought postings from you, as I'm sure others will too.
SKin
I considered making a new thread for this but opted to place it here under the thread most fitted.
First off, this is an appeal to some of the socalled Christians of this forum, mainly lukeskywalker1 with wildjedi coming in on 2nd place, to either start arguing rationally in this forum of serious debate or outright leave. You're disruptive to the discussions because you argue dogmatically, not rationally, and whenever your dogmata have been rationally questioned you turn a blind eye and march on down the road of vain dogmatic persuasion.
Example: In trying to prove the truth of the Bible you presented a long parade of facts about historical figures mentioned in the book, somehow assuming that proving these people were recorded correctly in this book is also proving everything else in it true. My head almost exploded with frustration over such an absurd assumption. When we question the validity of your Bible, we question not the accuracy regarding people and places in time, we question the acts of divinity, for which you have no proof whatsoever.
Next, should this appeal fail, I appeal to the rational parties of this forum to do as I; simply ignore them. You cannot overcome in any discussion with these types, for, as I pointed out, they argue dogmatically, and there is no overcoming that, unless God descends from Heaven and proclaims he doesn't exist (I trust you see the paradox).
All we create in arguing rationally against dogma is pointless spam, a spam that interferes with serious debate, therefor heed my words, I implore you all.
While I don't think that its anymore "okay" to bash Christianity than any other group, or that any group of (imperfect) people is above all criticism, I do think that there may be something to this.
Some things I think are behind the perception of Christian bashing being acceptable:
1) The Political Correctness movement run amok. While trying to appear sensitive to "diversity" some people feel that in order to promote the beliefs or attitudes of minorities, the best way is to try to tear down the majority (intentionally or without realizing it). That is why in the US you get people bashing whites, Christianity, European "culture" (if there is such a thing), the English language, etc.
It's seen as "okay" because the wrongs commited by the majority of oppressing the minority means they deserve whatever "payback" can be dished out.
I disagree with this attitude because I find it illogical to blame people today of crimes that were committed by their ancestors, or to blame entire groups for the actions of individuals. It makes just as much sense as those who wish to condemn all Jews for killing Jesus or for slaughtering the Canaanites as it does for people to bash all Christians for the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials.
2) This goes along with the last part of the first one... Crimes of the Past deserve Present Punishment. It's not enough for Christians to apologize for the part their religion took in various crimes and persecutions, modern day people have to pay as well.
3) Past bad experiences with Christianity. A lot of people get annoyed by people knocking on their doors trying to evangelize to them. They get pissed off by Televangelists begging for money and resorting to theatrics to get attention. They are sore because of getting yelled at our their hands slapped by Nuns in private school when they were little. A few are mad because they were abused by clergy (note: despite the media frenzy about priestly sexual abuse, less than 1% of priests have abused anyone, yet you'd think by listening to the reports that nobody was safe to go to church anymore) or told they were "going to hell" which caused them a lot of guilty feelings.
Of course, just as I've had people bash me for being an American (even before they know who I am and what I believe in), people are similarly bashed for the groups they belong to, that is, stereotyped. This is not fair or just. Just because one person in my group treated you badly does not mean I did, or will, or that all people in the group are that way. In fact, the person doing the wrong may be acting in OPPOSITION to the group rather than under its blessing.
4) Misunderstanding. This is perhaps the biggest one. You'd be surprised how many arguments I see on the 'net (especially) from people who have a beef with Christianity (or some branch of Christianity such as Catholicism) based on misunderstanding. Through ignorance, willful or not, they attack strawmen of the people and their beliefs, rather than evaluating each person or the actual beliefs. A notorious example of this is in those little comics you'll often find at bus stops or laundromats in the US.. chick comics. They take the most simplistic ways to attack denominations they disagree with and use heavily debunked urban myths and stereotypes to get their point across that everybody is wrong and going to hell but them.
A lot of this is due unfortunately to how people are raised and their understanding of their own beliefs. There are people raised in every faith imaginable, and even those raised in atheist households who convert later in life. This is not to say that their upbringing was faulty, but that they changed their mind later. Some do convert mainly because they did not have a real connection with what they were taught growing up. In addition, many are not taught the reasons why their parents or family believe or don't believe, but instead are fed the above problematic solutions. They don't learn the history, and so rather than making a thoughtful decision have something forced on them, and then reject it as soon as they can, since they had no real foundation in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, there are people who have genuine grievences with Christianity, or who have thoughtfully evaluated the belief systems and found that they do not agree with them.
I have no problem with these people. No one can be forced to agree with me and likewise they can't force me to accept their ideas. I think discussion is something that is most fascinating. Some people can handle it better than others, some not at all. But I find that a lot of mistrust and hatred comes from the above, rather than from a legitimate source. This is true of many things, unfortunately, and not just between Christians and other Christians or non-Christians and Christians.
PS: Some people say that Christian bashing is a "myth" a persecution complex that Christians have. While in a sense, there is not the level of persecution in the United States that existed in say Ancient Rome or in some parts of the world today (such as majority fundamentalist Islamic nations), there is still a sense of animosity between rival groups, and the kind of public bashing we have seen on the 'net. Why should they care? If we compare it to say "hate speech" against racial groups, one can see how it can hurt a person's feelings to see that kind of venom spewed out about something they hold dear or is part of their cultural heritage.
On the other hand, I see other groups promoting their own "persecution complexes" which seem to have just as much validity. I see Atheists and Wiccans counting their victims among the various purges, massacres and slaughters of history. I see Jews complaining about how they are treated in the media or slights by politicians or etc etc. Blacks and other racial minorities complain of racism. It goes on and on. Suffice to say that many people are unhappy with how they are being treated or percieved they are being treated.
While it is important to be realistic, it is also important not to ignore these problems, since they deal with how we human beings relate to each other.
PS: Being covicted of "heresy" is not a death sentence. Rather, it leads to excommunication (if the person refuses to recant their views that are in conflict with the Church). Excommunication means you are considered "not a part of the Church anymore" and you are not allowed to recieve sacraments. You can come back if you recant of course. In the middle ages, sadly, Secular and Church authority was often combined, so that heresy was also seen as treason, thus it could lead to imprisonment, torture, or execution. Consider also that non-Christians were often treated like second class citizens in theocratic states that were majority Christian in those times. Protestants of course weren't much better in that even those who sought religious freedom from Catholic countries went on to persecute other less powerful sects in areas they controlled or the Catholics that they happened to meet. Religious wars in our modern times continue to be something all people of faith should be ashamed of (note: I do not believe that most armed conflicts are religious based. some definately have religious elements to them though and some are religious based).
Being a heretic doesn't necessarily mean you're going to hell either, though in ancient times theologians tended to think in those kinds of black and white terms. Modern Catholic belief is that people who honestly believe their (wrong as seen by the Church) beliefs are not considered fully responsible for turning away and thus God may have mercy on them in the end.
Oh and one more thing:
Its not that we are attacking DIRECTLY Chatholics all the time. It might seem that way to you because this is the strongest religion in the States, especially in the Southern States.
That's something of a laugh, considering the part of the south called the "Bible Belt" is almost overwhelmingly (some flavor of) Baptist.
Protestants are the majority Christian group in the US. Of course not all of them believe the same thing, as there are tens of thousands of denominations of Protestantism. Catholics are the largest SINGLE GROUP of Christians in America, but they are far from the majority of all Christians. Catholicism is bigger/faster growing in Latin America and Africa. Similarly people are often surprised to here that Islam is growing faster in the world than Christianity (Islam is the second biggest world religion, and Atheism/non-religious/Agnostic is very near to that), and the most Muslims are in Pakistan and Indonesia, not the middle east (most people think of Arabs, while most Muslims are non-Arab).
It would probably be more accurate to say that the majority of Americans are "nominally Christian" (due to various polls on beliefs and practice among professed Christians).
The Catholic Church of today does not advocate crusades or wars (the current Pope recently denounced the war in Iraq for example). The Church teaches that evolution and the big bang are viable scientific theories not incompatible with the faith. The American Council of Catholic Bishops has repeatedly denounced the Death Penalty in the states. In this way, the RCC stands out from a lot of other Christian groups, though it still disagrees with them on issues like homosexuality and female clergy, etc. Obviously Catholics are not perfect, but I think some people are lumping all Christians together as if they all believe, think, and act the same way.
First on the list: A warm welcome to CloseTheBlastDo(ors).
Second on the daily order: Skywalker б la carte:
I cant prove its wrong, but ill say this, even if you believe in evolution, its wrong. If the evolution process ment for man to be with man, or woman to be with woman, then it would be that way. They could reproduce with each other. Its not that way. I doubt it will ever be that way.
I seem to remember having smacked that down somewhere around here... You are speaking as if Evolution was Larmarkian, where in reality it's Darwinian. And by the way, Evolution is not believed in.
She explained how we had to give our lives up. She said you have to live for him 100%
You frighten me. Seriously. I could have taken that straight out of a textbook about Hitler-Jugend. Straight out, and I'm not sh/tting you.
Thanks, but when I wasnt going up to pray, she would say something, not to me, but it applied to me, ive never met this woman before.
Another fine example of how skilled an orator she was... That technique is well known, and has been for centures - at least. It has nothing whatsoever to do with divine inspiration.
Skywalker, a few posts back someone mentioned Galieo
Hehe. One of my personal favorites when it comes to showing why dogmatic thinking is fundamentally harmful to your sound judgement.
While I don't think that its anymore "okay" to bash Christianity than any other group
You are making the fundamental mistake of assuming that 'Christianity' denotes a group of people. It does not. Christianity is a religion, or an ideology or mindset, if you will. Much like Marxism, you can bash the ideology without bashing the person professing it. Take Marxism as an example. It is perfectly OK to bash Marxism. After all, it does contain some quite large and obvious logical holes and short-circiuts. Oh, and it caused upwards one hundred million deaths worldwide (that's twenty times as many as Nazism). Does this mean that I think that every Marxist is an idiot? Certainly not. The same goes with Christianity and Christians (you could, litterally, substitute the names in the example given above).
While in a sense, there is not the level of persecution in the United States that existed in say Ancient Rome
That Christianity was persecuted in Ancient Rome is an unfounded myth. Ancient Rome had religious freedom, and was, spiritually as well as culturally, a mix of a lot of different people, none of whom were persecuted for their beliefs ('cept slaves who thought that slavery was unfair, ect.). The ruling elite, however, was a uniform mass, with the same general cultural and religious background (the original 'Romans'). This is not to say that Rome was a model society, but compared to both what was around at the same time, and most that came after it, it was very open minded. The same, coincidentially, goes for the Arabian world in the Middle Ages. Endnote: This age of religious freedom ended abruptly about 400 A.D., because of the ascention of Christianity. What other religions were present, were persecuted with extreme prejudice, had their temples torn down and churches built on top of the ruins and/or had their temples converted to churches (an act that can best be described as sacrilege).
Islam is the second biggest world religion, and Atheism/non-religious/Agnostic is very near to that
Actually No Religious Preference is the correct term for the 'Atheist' cathegory that you mention. The former term covers, aside from Atheists also people who are 'Closet Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Jews/whatever'. These, in fact, make up the majority of the group that you cite. At least in the US, that is, and probably in the rest of the world as well.
Apart from your misconception about the relationship between the terms 'Christians' and 'Christianity', I agree with much of what you said, Kurgan, although my post may not indicate that (no need to repeat what one agrees with, unless it's very spectacular).
Where did lukeskywalker1 go? I kinda figured it would end that way... A tribute to a tenacious attempt (
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=1C0702C0-9920-487B-ACE8-2458E130AF53)
In light of recent events, I've found that bashing Christianity is a ban-worthy act. They Christian-biased people, having a common bond, have apparently decided that us (for lack of better term) heathens should be warned at every turn. If lil Dubya got his way, the USA would turn into Iraq, but Christian based, in which case I'd feel sorry for those of us who don't stand under 'God'. We'd all be tortured into conversion or simply shot.
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Where did lukeskywalker1 go? I kinda figured it would end that way... A tribute to a tenacious attempt (
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=1C0702C0-9920-487B-ACE8-2458E130AF53)
Mayhaps he got the message; Christianity, despite its size and vast influence, cannot justify itself in a rational debate, for which this forum calls.
Or maybe he's on vacation without access to the interweb. Or maybe he took me up on my request for him to leave. Maybe he's dead and gone to Heaven, thus proving us all wrong....Maybe not.
In any event I stand by my request of not getting yourselves dragged into an attempt of rationally disproving Chrisitianity to a Christian - it simply is a waste of time and argumentative skills. That's not to say we can't discuss religion rationally, just that we shouldn't discuss against dogmatic religion...at least not in any other way than simply pointing it out to be dogmatic and hope this will speak for itself.
By the way, good Fanta movie, SkinWalker - why didn't you finish it? :cool:
no luke has access to the web. i've talk to him on occasion in the #echonet IRC channel.
Uhhh..... :confused: ***waits for movie to load***
i stayed offline a week cause of the blaster virus, while i was offline i was working on my JKII movie :p and i just kept working then found out about some really sweet terrain stuff and learned that then checked back here :)
no luke has access to the web. i've talk to him on occasion in the #echonet IRC channel.
Yeah, it kept distrating me from the stuff i was supposed to be mapping... Thats why latley ill join say hi, then 10 minutes later just disapear :)
rofl very funny skinwalker :D
Look, i just use the web to tell God's word... thats the main reason i come to these threads.
Anyways, to just say this thread doesnt really matter:
Luke 21: 12-14
"But before all these things happen, people will arrest you and treat you cruelly. They will judge you in their synagogues and put you in jail and force you to stand before kings and governors because you follow me. But this will give you an opportunity to tell about me.
Always have been bashed, always will be.
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Luke 21: 12-14
"But before all these things happen, people will arrest you and treat you cruelly. They will judge you in their synagogues and put you in jail and force you to stand before kings and governors because you follow me. But this will give you an opportunity to tell about me.
Always have been bashed, always will be.
The ability to rationalize away any and all logical arguments has always been, and will always be, one of the key unwritten tenants of Christianity.
"But before you realize the truth, your faith will be questioned and your logic argued. They will debate you in the Senate and ask you to account for your reasoning despite the lack of any hard evidence. But this will give you the opportunity to expand your mind, and one day perhaps you will realize that you are the only God you will ever know."
Eldritch 15: 27-29
Eldritch.. i think i missed that gospel... I hope you know there is a gospel called luke... its the 3rd in the new testament. Also the thread is called 'why is it ok to bash christiainity?' I was just sort of saying, people have always bashed christians, they always will, and it doesnt matter if i can pursuade you not to, half the world will bash anyways :)
Yes, I do realize there is a gospel called Luke. I was raised Catholic, and attended a private Catholic school until 8th grade, in which I attended mass at my church 6 times a week. Please try not to make such assumptions of others. Its not very Christ like.
There's a major difference between "bashing (
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bashing)") and respectfully questioning the validity of some of its claims.
My point is that by quoting that passage of the bible and going along with that line of thinking, you're able to rationalize any good logical arguments that come along. "God told me this would happen, so I can just ignore you and everything you say."
I know he's said that he is a shepard, but that doesn't mean that you have to be sheep (although I think perhaps a Lemming would be a more accurate way of describing it).
There's a major difference between "bashing" and respectfully questioning the validity of some of its claims.
I see the difference, but we both know, its not always like that. Thats when it become bashing (not talking about this thread, im talking about in the real world)
My point is that by quoting that passage of the bible and going along with that line of thinking, you're able to rationalize any good logical arguments that come along. "God told me this would happen, so I can just ignore you and everything you say."
My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point.
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point. because it's fun debating things, showing off our vast knowledge of things. :)
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point.
So you're saying we should become complacent and do nothing? This is exactly what i'm talking about - the general attitude most people (including many hardcore Christians) adopt is, "I'm comfortable where I am. It's too difficult to change / nothing will change, so I'm just going to do nothing."
It's this attitude that is responsible for so many of today's problems. Everyone thinks "nothing will change," so they do nothing.
I was saying this thread doesnt accomplish anything :)
So do you think people will stop bashing christians? People still bash other peole for their skin color! (you dont see it a lot, but it happens)
Originally posted by The Count
Christianity: Kill All Gays because they are Gay.
WHAT THE HELL!
Where did you hear or read that? From some of your atheist friends, or did you make it up just to piss people off?
Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead. It is MY belief, just like atheists belive in "ooooooooo science" and "oooooooo big bang!"
Anyways...I hate it when other people say to accept THEIR beliefs, if they dont accept yours. I'm only willing to accept someones beliefs if they accept mine.
End of post.
Originally posted by Acrylic
WHAT THE HELL!
Where did you hear or read that? From some of your atheist friends, or did you make it up just to piss people off?
Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead. It is MY belief, just like atheists belive in "ooooooooo science" and "oooooooo big bang!"
Anyways...I hate it when other people say to accept THEIR beliefs, if they dont accept yours. I'm only willing to accept someones beliefs if they accept mine.
End of post.
Way to turn the other cheek there, Acrylic. God would be proud. :rolleyes:
@ lukeskywalker1 - Yes, I think that it's possible that eventually we will get to the point where other beliefs are accepted (even if others don't accept ours, Acrylic).
Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me.
Too scared to post this in the homosexuality thread, where people would actually notice it and you might have to defend your statement?
:disaprove
*Sings*
Flames, flames, go away.. come again some other day...
That's a hint guys... hope you caught it.
Now to comment:
nitpicking]That Christianity was persecuted in Ancient Rome is an unfounded myth. Ancient Rome had religious freedom, and was, spiritually as well as culturally, a mix of a lot of different people, none of whom were persecuted for their beliefs ('cept slaves who thought that slavery was unfair, ect.). The ruling elite, however, was a uniform mass, with the same general cultural and religious background (the original 'Romans'). This is not to say that Rome was a model society, but compared to both what was around at the same time, and most that came after it, it was very open minded. The same, coincidentially, goes for the Arabian world in the Middle Ages. Endnote: This age of religious freedom ended abruptly about 400 A.D., because of the ascention of Christianity. What other religions were present, were persecuted with extreme prejudice, had their temples torn down and churches built on top of the ruins and/or had their temples converted to churches (an act that can best be described as sacrilege).[/nitpicking]
Evidence for it being a myth?
By all counts the Romans were quite an intolerant people, since after all, they ruled by right of conquest and force of arms (brutally suppressing any percieved insurrection, including speech against the government). I'm not even sure how many thousands (millions?) they murdered in their bloody empire. Perhaps for their time they might have been considered refined and tolerant, but by today's standards there's no possible way we can suggest they were anything but brutal. These are the people who killed human beings for specator sports, and yes, they kept slaves as did many people in those days (and still do today).
Nero may not have "fiddled when Rome burned" but he certainly did his share of nasty deeds that make modern day presidential scandals look like nothing. Perhaps the only reason they didn't do more damage in their time was that they didn't have the technology to control as much power as our modern leaders have.
The fact that dead Roman Emperors were worshipped as divine in their own right and had their faces put on the coins of the realm was considered a grave insult in the eyes of Jews and Christians. Jews were persecuted when from among them rose "messiahs" who dared to stir up sentiment against the Romans.
Christians persecuted each other for centuries of course, but that doesn't make their own persecutions a myth. The same could be said of the Jews. They were persecutors and then persecuted, and now some are persecutors again.
Likewise, Islam could be viewed as tolerant, because they allowed Christians and Jews (and sometimes other Monotheists) who paid a special tax (basically protection money) to practice their religion in peace, while at the same time Jews were treated like second class citizens in theocratic Christian countries. But, if someone were to do that today, they would be branded as barbaric and intolerant.
Just so you know, I reject the notion that past persecution justifies persecuting other people as some kind of payback. Obviously people who had nothing to do with what some dead people a hundred years ago did can't be blamed for the mistakes of their ancestors. That isn't justice. It's true that some people see that as an excuse, and this is something I just don't buy.
Unfortunately, there has been a tendency at various times in history (such as for example the 19th century in the West, or the Renessainse in Europe) to romanticize and idolize the Romans and the Greeks, glossing over their mistakes and modeling them more into how we wish we ourselves were. I've even heard it stated that Romans and Greeks were "really atheists at heart" (spoken of course by atheists who admired them). So considering the source is important... and historians disagree.
Now if you like, I can dig up books that support the idea that the Romans were intolerant and brutal. I'd also like to see your sources for the "Christian persecution was a myth, because the Romans were so tolerant." It would be interesting to see...
PS: Maybe last bit should be started in a new thread? I guess it's getting off topic, and what more could be said on the thread title anyway?
Yeah, romans did mistreat christians, like.... PAUL!
These are the people who killed human beings for specator sports, and yes, they kept slaves as did many people in those days (and still do today).
Yeah, they fed the early christians to lions for entertainment :(
I've even heard it stated that Romans and Greeks were "really atheists at heart" (spoken of course by atheists who admired them).
why would an athiest say that when everyone know the romans and greeks had their own gods (there is even a greek god in a court.. uhh.. i think its the court with the statue of moses or the 10 commandments statue....)
Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead.
nope, not SUPPOSED to hate gay people... (but then again it goes back to what i said before, just because you walk into a christian church doesnt mean your a christian)
I stand by the fact that the bible says its wrong its imoral (you dont need a bible to know this)
(although I think perhaps a Lemming would be a more accurate way of describing it).
hehe... interesting. Everyone is a Lemming, whether you believe in one thing, or another.
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I stand by the fact that the bible says its wrong its imoral (you dont need a bible to know this)
Immoral to you, perhaps. When you say, "the bible says it's wrong," I'm assuming you're referring to the following passages:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 18:22
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."
Leviticus 20: 13
If you read the history of the bible, you'll find that both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.
And since we're on the subject of Leviticus, let's see what other rules it lays down (and these are much more specific):
In Leviticus 11:1-12, all unclean animals are forbidden as food - including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others. They are all called an "abomination."
Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing.
Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period.
Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together."
Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." [this means you're committing a sin every time you get your haircut]
The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.
Why don't Christians organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?
Christians today like to selectively apply their own morals to this section of the Bible. They interpret the section of Leviticus incorrectly and use it to condemn homosexuality because it doesn't suit their personal tastes. I don't see any of them so concerned with the fact that they're not following any of the other guidelines from those passages - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually lives like that.
So let's not use the Bible to say that homosexuality is wrong anymore, m'kay?
hehe... interesting. Everyone is a Lemming, whether you believe in one thing, or another.
I wouldn't mind an example or something to represent this. I don't see your point.
Awesome.. was thinking of leviticus chapter 18!
just i didnt want to type all of that... but not just leviticus...
If you read the history of the bible, you'll find that both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.
Interesting.... uhh i dont think the word homosexual wasnt 'inveted' back then... (another thing, if a man has sex with a man, he isnt really heterosexuall anymore... maybe bisexual, well unless it was raped or something...) really quick... when it says death you know it means Hell right? (I have to explain this to people, back then it was the death sentence, now its Hell...)
(and these are much more specific):
very specific, as is much of the bible...
And since we're on the subject of Leviticus, let's see what other rules it lays down (and these are much more specific):
In Leviticus 11:1-12, all unclean animals are forbidden as food - including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others. They are all called an "abomination."
Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing.
Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period.
Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together."
Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." [this means you're committing a sin every time you get your haircut]
The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.
Why don't Christians organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?
Christians today like to selectively apply their own morals to this section of the Bible. They interpret the section of Leviticus incorrectly and use it to condemn homosexuality because it doesn't suit their personal tastes. I don't see any of them so concerned with the fact that they're not following any of the other guidelines from those passages - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually lives like that.
So let's not use the Bible to say that homosexuality is wrong anymore, m'kay?
nokay
nice... but u see the thing is, those rules were "rewritten" when christ died for our sins... we were (i hope this is the right way of explaining this) made holy by his blood. And about the food part, check acts chapter 10
now then... mostly everything is covered by the blood of christ, but homosexuality, as you read in Romans... chapter 1 verse 26-27 it talks about how men and woman have given up natural sex for unatural sex... (read it ;) i bet you though) My paster said, God formed, sin deformed, Christ transformed. (lucky you, most of his sermon today was on homosexuality)
I wouldn't mind an example or something to represent this. I don't see your point.
well.. you follow something dont you :p ? evolution, atheism.. buddhism, hinduism, christianity.....
If the rules were re-written, then why not take Leviticus out of the bible? Re-write the bible, or let the Christian bible be made up of the New Testament only. Then you'd actually have some ground to stand on, here.
No, the fact is just that Christians today selectively ignore parts of the bible and obey others.
The word "homosexual" of course didn't exist back then, anymore than the word "heterosexual" did. But they had other words for it - they knew what it was. It still doesn't change the fact that it's NOT what the bible is referring to, though.
And no one "follows" evolution, atheism, or anything else. It's an informed choice. There are no rules governing those things like there are Christianity. You either believe in it or you don't, based on your knowledge of the subject. So stop shining your smug smile at me - your arguments don't have ground to stand on.
OK guys, I'm with Jubateus now - there is no point in trying to discuss rationally with a person whose mind is as closed as LukeSkywalker.
This is not to say you shouldn't discuss religious subjects with religious people - just that talking about these things with someone like LukeSkywalker really is a waste of breath.
(At least at this point in his life - maybe later in life he could become a bit more clued up...)
Unfortunately, we are only fueling his ignorance. We are playing the role of the doubting heretics he heard so much about back in Sunday School - kind of like the 'baddie' you boo at when you watch a pantonime!! And remember, the heathens are SUPPOST to make sense. We are meant to sound convincing. That's how people are lead astray into hell. So trying to use logic and evidence to back up your argument is useless!
Basically, it comes down to the saying:
'Don't argue with a fool'.
SO fair enough LukeSkywalker. If God told you it's ok to be a bigot, then who am I to disagree... :rolleyes:
However, out of sheer curiosity, I'd still like to hear your answer to a question I posed to you a while back, and which you (conveniently) forgot to answer...
I'd like your view on whether these people are going to hell for an eternity of torment and whether they deserve to (I know you can't know FOR SURE in each case, but just an educated guess from what you know of their lives...)
* Florance Nightingale
* Ghandi
* Mother Teresa
Well, let's estabilish the difference between bashing and questioning here. I think it's needed.
If I say that "all christians suck" then I'm bashing. If I say that "it's stupid to believe that homosexuals go to Hell", yes, I'm bashing then too, but in response to christian bashing of homosexuals. Saying "I don't think I'll go to Heaven" is not bashing, but stating your opinion.
Truth is, christians bash people as much as people bash christians. People who bash christians just have to learn to direct their anger towards the "Bad" christians, like what I've dubbed the "holy homophobes".
I'd like your view on whether these people are going to hell for an eternity of torment and whether they deserve to (I know you can't know FOR SURE in each case, but just an educated guess from what you know of their lives...)
* Florance Nightingale
* Ghandi
* Mother Teresa
Before my other post (where i said the bible verse in red, i skipped everything before it, so i didnt read your question) besides I answered jubatus in another thread about this...
anyways, my view is, if they hear it, and they hear it, and they hear it, and they still dont believe, then they put themselves there. God doesnt choose what path you take. You do. I know people are going to Hell, I dont like it (who would like to think that anyone would suffer like that?) but its like this: When a child misbehaves, a mother punishes the child, does she like to punish the child? No, but she does what must be done. Same with God.
If the rules were re-written, then why not take Leviticus out of the bible? Re-write the bible, or let the Christian bible be made up of the New Testament only. Then you'd actually have some ground to stand on, here.
Ok, ill agree with that. But i know it changed the rule on food, but im not sure about the others. Hmmm... im not sure why he made the rules, ill have to reread leviticus (been about a year)
And no one "follows" evolution, atheism, or anything else. It's an informed choice. There are no rules governing those things like there are Christianity. You either believe in it or you don't, based on your knowledge of the subject. So stop shining your smug smile at me - your arguments don't have ground to stand on.
You follow the ideas. You believe in it right? (an idea can be a deity, after all, if God isnt real, then he is an idea right?)
@CloseTheBlastDo: I love how said when you first joined:
Skywalker - I repect the way you are standing up for your beliefs - and please don't be intimidated by people who bash you unnessesarily.
But also don't close your mind to other ideas, and I would hope you read through my post carefully, because I mainly would like to communite with you directly...
But then you change your mind? Ill take you were having a bad day... and forget about this.
OK guys, I'm with Jubateus now - there is no point in trying to discuss rationally with a person whose mind is as closed as LukeSkywalker.
This is not to say you shouldn't discuss religious subjects with religious people - just that talking about these things with someone like LukeSkywalker really is a waste of breath.
(At least at this point in his life - maybe later in life he could become a bit more clued up...)
Unfortunately, we are only fueling his ignorance. We are playing the role of the doubting heretics he heard so much about back in Sunday School - kind of like the 'baddie' you boo at when you watch a pantonime!! And remember, the heathens are SUPPOST to make sense. We are meant to sound convincing. That's how people are lead astray into hell. So trying to use logic and evidence to back up your argument is useless!
Basically, it comes down to the saying:
'Don't argue with a fool'.
SO fair enough LukeSkywalker. If God told you it's ok to be a bigot, then who am I to disagree...
Ill make one thing clear, nothing will change my mind about the bible. I have not completly closed my mind, just partially (about the bible) About other sciences, I think they are true, or other facters (that scientists may, or may not have thought about) have influenced the results. Other things, I dont believe are true.
Let me ask you something? Is mind completly open? Partially closed? If its open, then why not accept God? Granted, I could never show you any tangible evidence of his existence. But that doesnt mean its not real... correct?
anyways, my view is, if they hear it, and they hear it, and they hear it, and they still dont believe, then they put themselves there.
Bull. Completely and utter bull.
Lets say you are raised Hindu. It's your way of life, it's how you've been living for 30 years. Someone comes along and says "Thats wrong, Christianity is the right way" and you dont agree.... then you're to be burned in hell? For being raised a certain way?
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And if there is a god, then I honestly cannot believe that he would be so stupid, irrational, and illogical as to do such a cruel, cold thing to someone. God made me. I can see the crappy logic in that decision. Surely he can too.
@CloseTheBlastDo: I love how said when you first joined:
But then you change your mind? Ill take you were having a bad day... and forget about this.
When I first joined, I noticed that people were making very personal comments about you, and I didn't really like it. So I wanted to show that some of us were not interested in just blasting you for no reason. It also seemed to me that you were trying to explain your opinions rationally.
However, things have changed since then... not only from your replies since then, but I've also taken the time to back-read more of the threads. I thought you might have the ability to take on new ideas - but unfortunately I was wrong.
Now yes, my last comments weren't exactly complemetary, but I'm not blasting you for no reason.
You have shown a total inability to listen to my, or anybody else's arguments and actually debate it properly. Anything you don't agree with and you don't have any evidence to counter it, you simply dismiss with a quote from the bible more times than not! This is no way to carry on a debate (if we were on a bible study thread, then the situation might be different) - and it is useless for us to try.
OK, I take back the 'argue with a fool' section, I don't think that was nessesary and I apologise. But the rest of it, I'm afraid - is spot on.
...and you think that someone like Ghandi DESERVES to go to HELL?!
Believe me LukeSkywalker, you get away lightly with the s**t you say. Seriously, I have never heard a more ignorant, arrogant or flat out dumb thing to say.
Don't get me wrong, I don't actually think there is a hell, and that Ghandi, or anyone else, is there. But for you to totally ignore the greatness of someone like that and simply dismiss such a man just because he was bought up with a different religion...
OK - I DON'T take back the 'argue with a fool' bit. Sorry man, but you deserve it.
..at least admit that someone like Mother Teresa (who has done more good for the people around here than you, or anybody on these forums - she spent her ENTIRE life serving and helping others) is going to hell for an ETERNITY of TORMENT is totally irrational, and that while you don't understand how that's fair or right, it's the way your God told you it is, so you have no choice but to believe it.
...if you said that, you'd gain back SOME of my respect.
I should be more polite, I know, but words cannot describe how wrong you are...
When a child misbehaves, a mother punishes the child, does she like to punish the child? No, but she does what must be done. Same with God.
Shouldn't you have said 'when a child misbehaves, a mother puts her child in the oven for eternity...'.
Then the analogy would make some sense...
Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
OK, I take back the 'argue with a fool' section, I don't think that was nessesary and I apologise. But the rest of it, I'm afraid - is spot on.
Some great words of wisdom found in two fictional works:
"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?"
And from another fictional character, "Who is more the fool? The fool? Or the fool that follows him?"
Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
OK - I DON'T take back the 'argue with a fool' bit. Sorry man, but you deserve it.
:p
The way I see it, there are only three ways to handle circular arguments: [list=1]
Continue the cyclical nature of the argument.
Resort to ridicule.
Resort to humour.
[/list=1]
Hypocrisy is the single best reason to "bash" Christianity.
For instance: Moses was a war-criminal.
In Numbers 31:3
Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian
to execute the LORD'S vengeance on Midian.
In Numbers 31:7
So they made war against Midian, just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
In Numbers 31:9
The sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their
flocks and all their goods they plundered.
In Numbers 31:10
Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire.
In Numbers 31:12
They brought the captives and the prey and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest and to the
congregation of the sons of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan opposite
Jericho.
In Numbers 31:14
Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds,
who had come from service in the war.
In Numbers 31:15
And Moses said to them, "Have you spared all the women?
In Numbers 31:17
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man
intimately.
In Numbers 31:18
"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
In Numbers 31:35
and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.
In Numbers 31:40
and the human beings were 16,000, from whom the LORD'S levy was 32 persons.
And finally in Numbers 31:53
The men of war had taken booty, every man for himself.
This describes the practice of ethnic cleansing. Moses ordered that even the youngest male be
destroyed. Killed. Slaughtered. Put to sleep.
The women were mere booty, to be split among the spoilers. What happened to the 32 that went to god? Were
they sent via federal express or was it close enough to god to share the priest's household?
The only difference I see between Moses and Milosovich is that the latter didn't bother with taking concubines. I'm sure there are significantly more differences, though.
Whoa, back up a bit... I wasnt talking about those people, I was talking about people in general. You put them in your post... I dont know about those people. And who am I to judge that? Only God can do that, not me, nor you. And the bible clearly says that. You must follow God, or no heaven for you. You cant take good without the bad. Im not ganna sit here and say they are in Hell, if they didnt follow God, then they are. But if they did (which i think mother teresa did) then they are in heaven. I hate to hear that someone would go to Hell. God doesnt like it, and he still loves you while your there. Hes just left you. Its tough to understand, and i understand why you would be mad.
..at least admit that someone like Mother Teresa (who has done more good for the people around here than you, or anybody on these forums - she spent her ENTIRE life serving and helping others) is going to hell for an ETERNITY of TORMENT is totally irrational, and that while you don't understand how that's fair or right, it's the way your God told you it is, so you have no choice but to believe it.
...if you said that, you'd gain back SOME of my respect.
I know she did a lot. Did I say she is going to Hell? No. I said PEOPLE.
Like it or not, God commands you to follow him. Christ said not everyone will go to heaven. Only the people who do God's will.
Good deeds dont matter. How can you make up for your wrong doings. If i kill someone, I go to jail, does it make up for the murder? No. I could give a million dollars to everyone on earth, but thats not enough. Think it foolish, do whatever.
You cant have good without bad!!! Why are christians bashed? Because they are taking the bad now! Why would God send someone to Heaven, who has cursed his name, lied, stolen, said "God is a fairytale, lets get rid of him!" (its in this thread) They call him a liar, false, stupid, unfair, ********** and all other kinds of crap ive heard people say about him. Why would he send you to Heaven? You didnt love him! You didnt respect him! You didnt do anything for him, except degrade him! And you deserve Heaven? (this was not ment at you, just in general, lots of people do this, this thread is a good example of this) Topday, people worship themselves. They say they dont need God. The nicest person on earth would go to Hell because of this. Do you understand this? think about it like that. Wouldnt you be mad? Is Hell still irrational!!!???? Dude, people like me are telling you this stuff for a reason: So you can get away from that. If you dont want it fine. I wont force you, im just a messenger.
Moses was a war-criminal.
Lol, thats perspective. To Israel (at that time, because not many believe he was real now) he would have been a war-hero.
However, things have changed since then... not only from your replies since then, but I've also taken the time to back-read more of the threads. I thought you might have the ability to take on new ideas - but unfortunately I was wrong.
So you were trying to convert me? LOL. And people constantly complain about christians trying to do that.
And from my first arguement with C'Jais (before there was a senate!) I said neither of us would change, so we argue for nothing.
And from another fictional character, "Who is more the fool? The fool? Or the fool that follows him?"
This is also perspective. Think about this, if christianity is true, then your following Satan (unknowingly) and hes a fool... you get pic. I see how you could relate that to christianity.
Moses ordered
Moses, or God? Id have to look it up. If you dont like it, tell it to God.
Lets say you are raised Hindu. It's your way of life, it's how you've been living for 30 years. Someone comes along and says "Thats wrong, Christianity is the right way" and you dont agree.... then you're to be burned in hell? For being raised a certain way?
For continuing it. God would do a lot more than "your wrong, im right" then send you to Hell, if you dont follow. Why does the bible say take the gospel to ends of the earth? Or the four corners? Because there are no four corners! There are no "ends of the earth" That means continue to preach it, till you reach the four corners. There are no four corners, so we keep preaching forever! God didnt say you could stop when your halfway through Africa. Then of course Hell wouldnt be fair, but he says, tell everyone! So they all have an equal oppertunity to get to Heaven!
Shouldn't you have said 'when a child misbehaves, a mother puts her child in the oven for eternity...'.
You have lifetime. Think of all your sins... and read the other thing above.
I noticed that people were making very personal comments about you,
Why do you think im one of the few (very few) christians here? because a lot got mad and left (ive done the same) Why did they get mad, because of peoples comments. Dude, people have said all kinds of stuff about me. Im not letting it get to me. Ill just forgive em, and walk on. I do thank you for your concern though.
The thing is, if my mind is closed, and im not accepting ideas (I do hear what you say... or read :) but i dont have to accept it) Then ill die, and people will just think im stupid. And it really doesnt matter. If evolution is correct, I dont have a thing to worry about. Youve heard the rest, i wont bother to type it for the 50th time
I am hereby ending this pointless, circular debate.
Reasonable, sound-minded people will see clearly the illogicalities, contradictions and plain ignorance in almost all your arguments.
The fundementalists will no doubt see you as someone who has bravely stood up to the slings and arrows of the heathens.
...in the end I guess this is as it must be. You cannot fight ignorance in a place where enlightenment is not welcome...
I'm sorry if I seem offensive. Deep down I think your a decent guy LukeSkywalker - I've said so before. But you've been bought up with some pretty f***ed up beliefs, which you are unable to see past.
You believe that people that have been taught the 'lies' of other religions are going to hell.
I on the other hand believe that you being bought up in your religion may very well have condemned you to a lifetime of (self-inflicted and self-sustained) ignorance.
Who is right...?
I'll end with a classic :
'I'll see you in hell!'
For continuing it.
Suppose I'm a convert to Hinduism. I decide to try to convert you. You, understandably, resist, claiming your religion is the right one. I continue trying to convert you, and you continue to resist. After all, Christianity is what you've been raised as from birth. It's all you know, and you truly, deeply believe it in. There's no way you're going to convert, right?
It goes the same way the other way around. A christian can try and try to convert a muslim or a hindu, but if that person has been raised from birth to be part of that religion and has strong convictions in it, it's not gonna do squat.
I've always said, there's an element of brainwashing in being taught to believe in a certain religion from birth, or as a little child.
So if these people cannot change (and many of them have faith that is even more unshakable than yours) because this is who and what they were raised to be... why send them to hell?
I wasnt raised to be a christian :p I said it was all a waste of time, and other things. I never was mad at it the way you are though.
I'm not mad at Christianity. It's never done anything to hurt me. And if you werent raised Christian, fine. Good for you. But can you respond to any of the other points? Or are you just going to make your smug smiley faces?
smug smiley face :) :D :p :fett:
Anyways, God gives people more than one oppertunity to turn around. Yeah, it can be hard. You dont have to... of course. Dude, satanists have turned to God. Buddhists, muslims, hindus, athiests.. or just average people, who dont ever think about religion at all have turned. Its very possible. As possible as you will let it.
I never was mad at it the way you are though.
Well... other people seem to be...
EDIT: the law is the law. Suddam's sons were raised to kill... they still paid the price.
I understand it's possible. Anything is possible, in my opinion. I just think it's pretty messed up to condemn someone to eternal damnation for something like not wanting to change their entire belief structure just because someone "says" that it's wrong. You can claim all you want about the bible, but to someone who is not of that faith, it's just a book to them. They have no more reason to believe in the bible than they do something that I may have written.
Sure, they could do a little research and maybe see that the bible has some historical authenticity. But then, so does the Quran! That means very little, and moreover, they probably wouldnt bother. After all, they are happy where they are. Why should they change? Because you say so? Because the bible says so? Well, we're back to the same circle, then...