Before any of this begins, I'd like to try and keep things rational in this post, if you would please...
With that said:
As I browsed the boards this evening, I find a very interesting double standard: Non-Christians harass Christians about not being accepting, but then they try their very hardest to debunk Christianity.
Why is this the case? We (yes, we) as Christians believe in the Bible as the absolute law... why do you not accept this?
In a below post regarding homosexuality, people are being torn up for disagreeing and using the Bible as cause for the disagreement. Homosexuals aren't riddiculed for being what they are... but Christians are.
You beg us, please be accepting of others thoughts and ideas... I beg you, please respect our beliefs, and don't assume that we are close-minded biggots simply because of our beliefs, it is simply that some of us do not compromise values that we hold important to us.
[Let me elaborate on the last sentance: I don't say that you don't, I'm not implying anything, just stating one of the bases of Christian beliefs]
Thank you
Mr116
I dont bash Christianity since on paper i AM Christian. But I dont fallow any of it.
Christianity is fine if its peacefull. However the problem some of us have with this religious is that its too dominative in North America. The Pope doesnt allow people to use anti-contreceptive pills, why not? Christianity has abused power for a long time. Notablity in Quйbec during colonisation of North America. The French Canadians (like me) were often opressed. Told what do to. Who to see. etc. telling people to get more children or be shuned by the community and forced out of the church.
The main idea is a great idea. just like budism and every other religion. Love. Peace. Acceptance.
However when it gets to the core its just as corrupted as modern corporations and politics. They force a lot of opinions on people. When the Supreme court in the States overrulled the anti-gay sex in Texas and a few other states, Priests and religious fallowers prayed and protested at the courts. Why? Because they feel they must inforce the code of the Bible on others that are not part of the religion.
Then a vast majority have the nerve to say at other religious what they are doing is wrong. Attacking jews, muslims, etc for thier difference in opinions. Attacking the Jehovah's' Witnesses because they are too "hard core fanatics". Saying the the fact that muslims fallow their religion to the core of acting out jihad when the Catholic church had crusades that murdered thousands.
speaking of which. in the bible it says no sin can be pardoned. Then why did the pope, which is supposed to represent God, send murderers, thieves and rapists to the Crusades with promisses that if they are victors, all sins will be forgiven and a spot in heaven will be kept for them?
Its not that we are attacking DIRECTLY Chatholics all the time. It might seem that way to you because this is the strongest religion in the States, especially in the Southern States.
I can only speak for myself, but since I've been accused in the past of "bashing" christianity, I can tell you that I generally have sincere respect for other cultures and religions (christian or otherwise). In fact, I find many of them extremely fascinating.
Here, in this forum, however, christianity often gets thrown out like a wild card in a poker game. What I mean is, whenever a serious topic comes up about "homosexuality," "the death penalty," "genetics," or philosphy in general, someone always seems to subvert or hijack the discussion to relate it to a narrow measure of christian values.
Christianity is by no means the only faith in the world and is only viewed as valid by christians.
One can only be willing to humor this phenomena for so long before it becomes readily apparent that the only way to continue the discussion is to oppose this viewpoint along with others.
Also, this is a branch of the LucasForums where serious discussion is encouraged, and, thus, draws the more intellectual and philosophical of LF along with the theological.
In many of the circles I move in during my day-to-day life, there are friends and associates who are religious (most christian, some muslim and hindi). However, there are also many circles I associate with that the members are typically more intellectual and less religious. Most scientists and budding scientist friends of mine are agnostic, as am I.
Again, speaking for myself, I usually don't initiate any controversy with regard to religion (unless it's April first), but I am more than willing to respond to a post that cites a religious point where I disagree. This is because, from my perspective, there is a certain measure of hypocrisy associated with christianity. It seems a bit pompus to go about life attempting to change others to fit your belief system while proclaiming their own invalid. I'm not trying to suggest that you, personally do this, but this is the business of most religions, not just christianity.
Now I realize that most christians who read this post will immediately think to say, "but agnostic, scientist types also try to impose their beliefs upon others." I cannot deny that I wish everyone would believe in the value of critical thinking and skeptical reasoning with regard to life, education, and things spiritual. But there is a difference in that the agnostic approach is always open to improvement on the way we view life and its history. There are no certainties, no evidence is 100% convincing, and everyone is welcome to a hypothesis as long as they're willing to have it ruthlessly scrutinized.
By engaging in conversation with one such person, you unwittingly agree to this. Don't take it personal. Your ideas might be ruthlessly examined ('attacked' if you will), but if anyone attacks you directly, let me or C'jais know. It's likely that we'll catch it, though.
So.... did that answer your question? At least partially?
One last thing... there is a thread that was moved here from the Swamp in which you will note some very personal attacks. One person was banned, another warned (both should have been banned or neither, but that was taken care of elswhere). Their comments still stand, however, as an example of what not to do. Those comments are also very telling of both of their characters.
Ok, if the topics I address below seem vague, I'm sorry, but I don't like to quote people, that tends to open up meticulous nitpickings of grammar usage and the like, and can sometimes fully destroy a point.
I'm afraid I have to disagree to an extent about the core of Christianity being compassion and acceptance. Don't get me wrong, both very important things, but the focus behind Christianity is to love and worship the Creator our God, and be redeemed from our sins through Jesus Christ. **Sorry, I understand many are rolling eyes right now, but as that is the main focus, I feel that it should be elaborated upon**
Skinwalker, I agree with you fully about wishing everyone would take an open-minded stance on things. I personally feel that if you should have to follow it blindly, then that truly is whistling in the dark. However, by scientific means (and other, less concrete means) I have personally concluded that there is an Intelligent Creator, and so on from there.
I wish people could and would evaluate their faith, if they claim to be Christians, because if there really is a God, then there should be enough evidence to prove that to yourself.
I understand that people, when they think of Christians, think of worldly establishments that try to interpret the Bible and make masses follow their interpretations, i.e. the Catholic Church. While that might be the largest sect of Christianity, it is not the definitive, which is why I believe many terrible things were done in the name of the church and of God, such as the Crusades. That was a blatent misuse of power, but I can't understand why that is chosen to depict Christianity in general, of its shortcomings.
Skinwalker, I also agree about the arrogance of some, but I truly have to stress, the points hammered are often represented by people who don't truly represent Christ, just as you don't judge a race by one person, or even a group of people.
I understand the 'wildcard' remark, but it stands that people who have Christian beliefs let it influence all their lives, that's part of it. Again, I concede that the Bible is only valid by Christians, but that's where it is justified from for us. I also agree that it is a pity that members of other religions, such as Hindi or Muslim, don't get the chance for whatever reason to express their beliefs here, I believe that would give more perspective, and also take pressure off Christianity being the only non-fully tangible source.
Again, I have to reiterate that even in an intelligent debate, theology will have to play in somewhere, so long as there is someone who can put it out there, and can support it.
About the technicalities of my term 'bashing', I simply meant the unwillingness to accept it under any circumstance, regarding it as complete nonsense, merely because it is theology, and the many repeated attempts to show the flaws therein.
Well the big difference is you choose to believe in a religon...gays do not choose to be gay...they just are....
Your post was well said.
Originally posted by mr116
About the technicalities of my term 'bashing', I simply meant the unwillingness to accept it under any circumstance, regarding it as complete nonsense, merely because it is theology, and the many repeated attempts to show the flaws therein.
Actually, I prefer a different reason as to the unwillingness to accept mainstream religion: the inability to test it.
I've been involved, lately, in educating myself about some of the more interesting research of late regarding the brain. There is much going on that is finding reasons for various syndromes such as senseasthesia (my spelling on this term is likely incorrect), mental illnesses, and various conditions brought on by injury or stroke.
In doing the research, the researchers could easily have chalked up some of the whys to God. In their perspectives, however, god is an untestable hypothesis, so they throw it out and look at other hypotheses. And its in this that they find answers that allow for further discovery.
I don't discount the influence of god, I just don't apply a very high probability to it as it goes against common sense. That sense, of course, isn't common among believers.
My interest in the brain and consciousness, by the way, is part of a paper I'm attempting to write on Why People Belive. Not just in religion, but UFOs, parapsychology, divination, astrology, and a host of other unsubstantiated ideas. From my perspective, I see little difference when comparing theology to astrology. Both, for instance, depend upon unverifiable documents that guide the practitioner. I see the differences, but the similarities that I see are significant.
I refuse to follow an organisation that is incompassionate and inflexible and as contradictory as Christianty, they have so many double standards its laughable.
Yup, if we are talking about double standards then why is it ok for the church to dictate to us what is right and wrong and yet it un acceptable to point out that the church is wrong?
Freedom of speech as long as you agree eh?
withe each passing day the existence of god becomes less and less likely as far as i'm concerned, and as such i would say the loch ness monster is probably more of a reality than god.
I've never see one iota of scientific proof that god is real. Basically god and gods were invented to explain things that could not be explained through reasoning and/or science. We now know how the universe started thanks to science and god is not even mentioned. Q.E.D.
The other problem is that religion is used as an excuse to treat people badly under the pretence of carrying out god's word.
I applaud you, mr116. I too have wondered this for some time, but it occured to me that even in the Bible it states that we will be ridiculed beyond belief for being a christian. I mean, look what they did to Jesus. :\
well remember this when i mock christianity:-
Turn the other cheek ;) LOL
Christianity: Human Life is sacred.
Christianity: Pregnant women can't have abortions it is immoral even if it is to save their own life.
Christianity: Love Thy Neighbour
Christianity: Kill All Gays because they are Gay.
I could go on but I won't.
I wonder then after all what faith is? I mean it's not that I can't understand that personal fate is unquestionable but how does it work physically? What happens in human brain that makes it stick with one idea and protect it no matter how good it is refuted? And then what happens to the uncertainty that every human know to be the bigger part of his life (not even bigger but whole)?
Originally posted by mr116
O...I don't like to quote people, that tends to open up meticulous nitpickings of grammar usage ...
i have a feeling you are talking about me. if you aren't then... woohoo for me... but if you are. dammit who cares if i have bad grammar. english isnt my first language! And if you ask me its pretty damn good considering that fact!
now back to the christian bashing debate:
I have to agree with SkinWalker on the forum issue. There is a lot of references and wild cards thrown around by catholics, especially in that homosexuality thread.
Christianity to me is merely a crutch for the weak, a tool for the manipulative and an excuse for the vile. I cannot love God nor can I hate him, for he is like us without guilt. I can only hope to convince him of the error of his way, and failing that quest for his utter destruction.
His followers are ignorant, naпve sheep and by far the most of these are hypocritical, arrogant buffoons like those representing themselves in this thread.
Eternity in any state can only bring insanity.
I cannot bring myself to discuss this rationally for my loathing is too great.
Christianity: Kill All Gays because they are Gay.
IT NEVER SAYS TO KILL GAYS!!!!! Name one place in the Bible that it says to kill gay people? In fact Jesus hung around the most sinful people in there time(prostitutes,tax collectors, gays).
In fact in the Bible Jesus saves a women from being stoned by men because she slepped with another man other than her husband. You cant say that he hates other non0christians.
I cannot love God nor can I hate him, for he is like us without guilt. I can only hope to convince him of the error of his way, and failing that quest for his utter destruction
I think neither you nor christians really understand his way. I guess everyone can only possess personal god and not ultimate. And his way therefore is only seen through the angle of our subjectiveness. God's not Bible, nor science, it's much more complicated than that. If I could I would invent a new word for it. If I could I would understand him.
Originally posted by Homuncul
I think neither you nor christians really understand his way. I guess everyone can only possess personal god and not ultimate. And his way therefore is only seen through the angle of our subjectiveness. God's not Bible, nor science, it's much more complicated than that. If I could I would invent a new word for it. If I could I would understand him.
I can offer this word: Faith.
Originally posted by Jubatus
His followers are ignorant, naпve sheep and by far the most of these are hypocritical, arrogant buffoons like those representing themselves in this thread.
Well excuse me for breathing, mr. perfect. How dare you. How dare you come here and tell me christians are ignorant and naive. Do you have any idea how smart I am? I'm sure you don't, do don't you dare mock me for being a christian.
This is exactly why I am leaving the senate chambers. You call us christians hypocrits, yet everyone here believes in stating opinions and not bashing someone for having an opinion, yet in almost every instance, christians get bashed by these SAME people simply because they are christian. You sir, tell me who is the hypocrit.
Not faith. I would believe god is a fish can if I was appropriately explained why and how it is so. And faith is a stagnation, it's limited, it has nothing to do with perceiving anything (whether god or anything).
i don't particularly bash christianity unless it's proven that a certain denomination is ignorant like the denomination known as southern baptist. they used the bible to prove slaves were the wish of god. these are the christians i detest. now if the person is nice and accepting of times i will enjoy their company such as obi-wan13 he's a very kind man. we may have different views on things but he accepts that and doesn't rub the "your going to hell" thing.
i think that if there was a god he'd be a cactus. wanna know why? cuz cactus' don't give a s**t. they just accept what's going on and just go with the flow. they got no wonder, no biggie.
Question: TheJackal when you say catholics are you referring to the whole of christianty or just the Catholics?
Where do i begin. Well yes it does seem that Christians are getting a fair bit of stick. From some of the arguements i've finally had the chance to read in the anti-homosexual thread it is well deserved critism in places!
I think the main proble however is that some Christians (This applies to ALL other organised religions as well) are not prepared to sit and think through why they follow their repective bibles. Some are blindly following with out questioning! This IS ALWAYS DANGEROUS!!!! Why because it allows the blind followers to be mislead by the preachers and religious leaders instead of thinking for themselves and self-intrepreing the bible and doing as they believe is correct.
I bet now you would like to know my faith. Well I do not follow the organised religions any more I turn my back on them years ago. Why because everyone of them without exception (as far as i know) are corupted one way or another. I do believe in a surpreme power, God as you will. But the way I see it as it is easier to thing of the surpreme power as a "force" but i call it the universe, that binds everything together and is beyond such a thing as good or evil. I do follow a majority of Christian values and morals as well. Anyway I digess to much.
So basically all those Christians out there that believe they are being unfairly attacked your not its just that people are "asking" why do you believe that. My advice is to answer their question. :)
Yes I have edited it Note to posters i may be a good idea to not post arguement when sleepy!!!!!!!
Originally posted by InsaneSith
i don't particularly bash christianity unless it's proven that a certain denomination is ignorant like the denomination known as southern baptist. they used the bible to prove slaves were the wish of god. these are the christians i detest. now if the person is nice and accepting of times i will enjoy their company such as obi-wan13 he's a very kind man. we may have different views on things but he accepts that and doesn't rub the "your going to hell" thing.
I would never rub the your going to hell thing into someone that is just as much a sin as anything else. And Insane you know that are views are extremely different in most cases but you are one of the nicest guys here, you dont bash anything to do with christianity the moment you see it.
1st) christians BURNED people for certain reasons. ONE is that they SAID the EARTH is a SPHERE.
2nd) they refused to accept this up to the 20th century.
3rd) CHRISTIANS KILL AND HAVE KILLED TO SPREAD THEIR BELIEFS!
nothing furthermore needed to say to that except perhabs:
If you are carrying a cross and step to a foe with it and hit him with it, then you are not longer carrying a cross. YOU CARRY A WEAPON.
This is exactly why I am leaving the senate chambers. You call us christians hypocrits, yet everyone here believes in stating opinions and not bashing someone for having an opinion, yet in almost every instance, christians get bashed by these SAME people simply because they are christian. You sir, tell me who is the hypocrit.
Please don't just leave SC. I'm sure Jub's got pretty an argument why he thinks so. Not bashing. You're just defending yourself for not having anything valid to justify christians. For that many like to generelize people as hypocrit christians. I don't do so. But since this thread is for seriouss discussions it would, I would very much like to see how Jub's been refuted as I have keeping it as an oath to do so sometime
Originally posted by Lord Siraious
[COLOR=limegreen]Question: TheJackal when you say catholics are you referring to the whole of christianty or just the Catholics?
Where do i begin. Well yes it does seem that Christians are getting a fair bit of stick. Deal with it. From some of the arguements i've finally had the chance to read in the anti-homosexual thread it is well deserved critism in places!
COLOR]
How dare you tell me to deal with it. You are making it sound that we are below you and are naive ignorant welps. I do not have to deal with it from you.
In your view homosexuals get bashed they should deal with it. Blacks get bashed they should deal with it. You are a true hypocrite.
1st) christians BURNED people for certain reasons. ONE is that they SAID the EARTH is a SPHERE.
2nd) they refused to accept this up to the 20th century.
3rd) CHRISTIANS KILL AND HAVE KILLED TO SPREAD THEIR BELIEFS!
America is a christian dominated country and we allow people of other religions to live here and practice there beliefs.
But In Muslim countries, christians are persecuted and killed for spreading there beliefs so dont say that we are closeminded religion.
Originally posted by Jubatus
Christianity to me is merely a crutch for the weak, a tool for the manipulative and an excuse for the vile. I cannot love God nor can I hate him, for he is like us without guilt. I can only hope to convince him of the error of his way, and failing that quest for his utter destruction.
His followers are ignorant, naпve sheep and by far the most of these are hypocritical, arrogant buffoons like those representing themselves in this thread.
Eternity in any state can only bring insanity.
I cannot bring myself to discuss this rationally for my loathing is too great.
My aren't we arrogant we see ourselves as able to tell God what is right and wrong.
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Well excuse me for breathing, mr. perfect. How dare you. How dare you come here and tell me christians are ignorant and naive. Do you have any idea how smart I am? I'm sure you don't, do don't you dare mock me for being a christian.
This is exactly why I am leaving the senate chambers. You call us christians hypocrits, yet everyone here believes in stating opinions and not bashing someone for having an opinion, yet in almost every instance, christians get bashed by these SAME people simply because they are christian. You sir, tell me who is the hypocrit.
If you are going to announce how intelligent you are then please learn how to spell hypocrite, and fiancee.
* attacking someone's spelling/typing amounts to nothing more than an ad hominim attack, which is against the rules. not to mention that this type of post is off-topic an pointless to the discussion. --- Skin
* Well if he is going to boast about how intelligent he is, he might aswell spell correctly, I mean were Charles Darwin's books full of spelling mistakes? I personally think when he says look how clever I am, that he should be able to spell simple words, so this was undermining his argument which has to do with the thread of how clever he is --- Murphy
ooops sorry Thracken that did sound like that my apoligees that wasnt my intention give me a few minute to reword (its late here and I've had a busy day I'm just typing and editing without proof reading. It was original to a particular persons response but then I re=ad the person's response and it was not need anyway It will be re check and edit in a few mins
I don't know if God exists or not however religion particularly Christianity is despicable, their incompassionate inflexibility is despicable.
Originally posted by Lord Siraious
ooops sorry Thracken that did sound like that my apoligees that wasnt my intention give me a few minute to reword (its late here and I've had a busy day I'm just typing and editing without proof reading. It was original to a particular persons response but then I re=ad the person's response and it was not need anyway It will be re check and edit in a few mins
Its ok I know who and what you are talking about.
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Well excuse me for breathing, mr. perfect. How dare you. How dare you come here and tell me christians are ignorant and naive. Do you have any idea how smart I am? I'm sure you don't, do don't you dare mock me for being a christian.
This is exactly why I am leaving the senate chambers. You call us christians hypocrits, yet everyone here believes in stating opinions and not bashing someone for having an opinion, yet in almost every instance, christians get bashed by these SAME people simply because they are christian. You sir, tell me who is the hypocrit.
How dare I? I dare.
I suppose I'm to be intimidated and humbled by your delusional 'righteous wrath', yes? I don't know how smart you are, but I have a pretty good idea of how smart you aren't.
I'm not bashing you for your oppinions, I'm bashing you for your naпve weakness. My only hypocrisy is existing.
Originally posted by Homuncul
Not faith. I would believe god is a fish can if I was appropriately explained why and how it is so. And faith is a stagnation, it's limited, it has nothing to do with perceiving anything (whether god or anything).
Then we have yet again misunderstood eachother. Thought you had faith in science.
Originally posted by Homuncul
....I would very much like to see how Jub's been refuted as I have keeping it as an oath to do so sometime
And you have yet to succeed.
Originally posted by Jubatus
How dare I? I dare.
I suppose I'm to be intimidated and humbled by your delusional 'righteous wrath', yes? I don't know how smart you are, but I have a pretty good idea of how smart you aren't.
I'm not bashing you for your oppinions, I'm bashing you for your naﶥ weakness. My only hypocrisy is existing.
MAN! Righ now I am too angry to type a decent responce without getting banned:mad:
Originally posted by Darth Murphy
My aren't we arrogant we see ourselves as able to tell God what is right and wrong.
We were created in his image, yes? We did eat of the Tree of Knowledge, yes? Conclusively, God's capability of reasoning should not exceed ours.
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
MAN! Righ now I am too angry to type a decent responce without getting banned:mad:
Even if you did it would be full of holes and contradictions so be glad you didn't.
Originally posted by Jubatus
We were created in his image, yes? We did eat of the Tree of Knowledge, yes? Conclusively, God's capability of reasoning should not exceed ours.
Thats up to debate whether we are in his image, and that tree of knowledge is aload of crap, my theory as God is only escathologically verifiable so we don't know squat about God, and I don't think the divine would give a toss what you think. (I mean did you create the universe?)
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
IT NEVER SAYS TO KILL GAYS!!!!! Name one place in the Bible that it says to kill gay people? In fact Jesus hung around the most sinful people in there time(prostitutes,tax collectors, gays).
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:31-32
Happy now? That's one more than you asked for.
Anyways. The problem with christians in debates isn't that they are christians, no one bothers very much about what they believe in. The problem is that they tend to view the Bible as the complete truth and use that in discussions, where their only real argument is "because the bible says so", wich, I'm afraid, is not a good argument in a serious debate
Thank you Brenton I was going to point that out but was too lazy.
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
IT NEVER SAYS TO KILL GAYS!!!!! Name one place in the Bible that it says to kill gay people? In fact Jesus hung around the most sinful people in there time(prostitutes,tax collectors, gays).
In fact in the Bible Jesus saves a women from being stoned by men because she slepped with another man other than her husband. You cant say that he hates other non0christians.
Well, umm...lemme think.. oh yes:
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Dunno about you, but to me that pretty much sounds like "kill all gays". :(
The problem with christians is that they can not take any criticism.
They can't discuss the subject but yet have a need to talk about it.
Everyone is supposed to listen to their stories about Jesus doing this and Jesus doing that, and everyone *must* believe this even though they can offer no proof whatsoever, even though there are 144.588 different religions out there who all represent "the truth".
The second a question is presented highlighting the oddities of christianity, christians feel insulted. Whenever someone criticizes their system of belief, they feel insulted. The arguments don't matter, 'cause a true believer won't listen to them. They're like stubborn children who plug their ears with their fingers and go "lalalalalala I won't listen to you LALALALALALALA!"
Then, once the arguments have been presented, a true believer disregards it all and starts from the beginning by saying "Jesus died for our sins and you are going to hell because the bible sais so".
And that's what makes debating with religious people (christian or whatever) hell. That's what insults me. Not only do they insult my intelligence by telling stuff I *know* is wrong and can *prove* is wrong, but they're also so thick headed that nothing you say make any difference. There is no way in hell anyone can get through to these people! :mad: (BTW - not talking about anyone here, no-one on Lucasforums is the kind of religious type I can't stand)
We have thousands of religions and gods in the world. Billions of religious people who all KNOW that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
My advice: if you can't handle the debate, stay out of the debate.
I enjoy these debates quite a lot. I do believe that there's a possibility that god exists in one form or another. Does that make it impossible for me to see the absurdities of the bible? Of course not. I won't block stuff out just because it's a matter of "religion" or concerning a book called "the bible".
Everyone knows, that if you're right, you're right. The more people test the truth, the more certain it is that they'll see the truth too`and convert. Where's the harm?
Originally posted by Darth Murphy
Thats up to debate whether we are in his image, and that tree of knowledge is aload of crap, my theory as God is only escathologically verifiable so we don't know squat about God, and I don't think the divine would give a toss what you think. (I mean did you create the universe?)
Wow, this is filled with things to pick apart.
Foremost, I was abusing their case for argument, not arguing my case.
That we are created in his image and ate of the Tree of Knowledge is clearly stated; it's actually one of the centerpoints in Christianity, original sin.
If we know squat about God, then the Word of the bible is not to be trusted, yes?
I had to create the Universe for the divine to giving a toss about my thoughts? So, does or doesn't God judge on us our thoughts as well as our actions? Is speaking with God futile?
I'm sure the Christians will have a field day about this, thanks Murphy :)
Originally posted by Jubatus
Wow, this is filled with things to pick apart.
Foremost, I was abusing their case for argument, not arguing my case.
That we are created in his image and ate of the Tree of Knowledge is clearly stated; it's actually one of the centerpoints in Christianity, original sin.
If we know squat about God, then the Word of the bible is not to be trusted, yes?
I had to create the Universe for the divine to giving a toss about my thoughts? So, does or doesn't God judge on us our thoughts as well as our actions? Is speaking with God futile?
I'm sure the Christians will have a field day about this, thanks Murphy :)
Yeah but I don't believe in Christianity as do many others so your tree of knowledge crap is up to debate. I personally believe in the theory of evolution and what Iranaeus stated we were born imperfect. (The irony he's a Christian I am aware of)
Yes the Bible isn't to be trusted because we don't know sqat about God, the Bible should be known as the book of contradictions not the book of Revelations.
No, but I doubt God would let you influence him because you're well insiginificant in comparrison to God, I have never heard of anything so ludicrous I'll influence God of the error of God's ways.
Speaking with God (if you believe you're doing that) isn't futile but you believing you can reason with him and influence him is.
I doubt the Christians will have a field day with this because what I havce stated basically means that God can exist without religion, if anything they'll have a wet weekend with it.
Originally posted by Jubatus
I'm bashing you for your naпve weakness.
Which proves you are bashing. Don't. It's against the rules. I have NEVER told you that you are stupid, I have NEVER announced you will burn in hell, I have NEVER insulted your mother. I have done NOTHING to you. I believe in the Bible. That gives you the right to call me naive and weak? I believe the answer I am looking for is "no."
Now, if I see you calling anyone else weak or naive on these boards I'll ban you quicker then you can say "sorry." I do NOT Put up with ANY name calling on these boards for ANY reason. Got it, top cop?
The title of this thread was Why is it OK to bash Christianity?
The originator of the thread stated "I'd like to try and keep things rational in this post, if you would please..."
Moreover, the Senate Chambers is a place for serious discussion and reasoned debate.
Please note some of the following quotes of some randomly selected posts within this thread:
"His followers are ignorant, naпve sheep and by far the most of these are hypocritical, arrogant buffoons like those representing themselves in this thread."
"I cannot bring myself to discuss this rationally for my loathing is too great."
"don't you dare mock me for being a christian."
"If you are carrying a cross and step to a foe with it and hit him with it, then you are not longer carrying a cross. YOU CARRY A WEAPON."
"In your view homosexuals get bashed they should deal with it. Blacks get bashed they should deal with it. You are a true hypocrite."
" religion particularly Christianity is despicable, their incompassionate inflexibility is despicable."
"I suppose I'm to be intimidated and humbled by your delusional 'righteous wrath', yes? I don't know how smart you are, but I have a pretty good idea of how smart you aren't."
"MAN! Righ now I am too angry to type a decent responce without getting banned"
There is little rationale coming through in these words.
If even some of these comments are serious....
Regardless, these are evidence of a lack of "reasoned debate."
Those of you that know me, know that I have been critical of christianity in the past, and will likely be so in the future. But there's a difference between "critical" and offensive.
Several comments made broad generalizations about christianity such as citing the number of people who were killed or died for the faith. This is instantly an invalid argument, since homicide, murder, suicide, war, genocide, etc. has occured independently from christianity and extensively throughout history. It could more easily be argued that this is a human construct and not a christian one.
I use that as but one example of both how to present a reasoned argument and how there is an irrational bias being presented in this thread.
Now to the good part: Clean it up or don't post here. Disregard that and I'll lock the thread.
It bothers me to see a conversation get to the point where people state that they're leaving the forum. It is a sign of others stirring sh*t up just to create a pointless argument.
Many of the arguments that came across offensively didn't have to be so. Support your argument with a bit of observation... don't just state "religion[,] particularly Christianity[,] is despicable, [it's] incompassionate inflexibility is despicable."
Give us an idea why you think so. Then give the other side of the argument an opportunity to respond appropriately.
What makes you think a mere Super Moderator will stop Jubatus? I mean he thinks he can influence God.
SkinWalker, I think I am in love with you. =)
quote:
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Originally posted by Jubatus
I'm bashing you for your naпve weakness.
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Originally posted by obi-wan13
Which proves you are bashing. Don't. It's against the rules. I have NEVER told you that you are stupid, I have NEVER announced you will burn in hell, I have NEVER insulted your mother. I have done NOTHING to you. I believe in the Bible. That gives you the right to call me naive and weak? I believe the answer I am looking for is "no."
Now, if I see you calling anyone else weak or naive on these boards I'll ban you quicker then you can say "sorry." I do NOT Put up with ANY name calling on these boards for ANY reason. Got it, top cop?
http://www.boomspeed.com/insanesith/owned.gif)
anyways. don't bash individuals jubatus.
Just getting home from work and seeing this thread in a raging inferno is sad, to say the least.
I'll second Skin's warning and state that if I see anymore thoughtless, sweeping "carpetbombing" generalizations, I too, will lock the thread.
Now, there's a difference between bashing the Christian, and bashing Christianity. There are countless "remixes" of Christianity and some of those organizations have indeed done foul deeds. The question is whether we should proclaim Catholocism guilty for all the murders - or the Popes who commanded them to be done in Catholocism's name. If we say that Catholocism (or any other Christian sect) is a military organization with its priests the commanding officers, the common people regular soldiers, and the Pope being the 5 starred general, who is to blame? Surely all the "privates" are just following orders from higher up and "going by the book" (excuse the pun) - but still, there are times when it comes to disobey direct orders because it's trying to screw up the inner moral compass.
When the book's commands are conflicting, one should look at the higher message.
1) The Bible tells us to love each other unconditionally.
2) The Bible tells us to kill gay people.
What now? Think for yourself - which of these is more important to you? And no, I'm not gonna believe for a second that someone in here will state that the latter is. The book is full of these contradictions, and each and all must struggle to decode the bigger message. Mix and match to find the right combination that's in harmony with our heart.
I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that part of the Bible was written by loving, kind people who wanted to send a message to unite everyone on earth. You could say they were inspired from above, but the fundamental idea is that they were compassionate individuals who wanted to make a change for the better. But that's not the whole Bible. Parts of the Bible were written by f*cktards who wanted to justify their actions by claiming divine inspiration - these were not caring people, but selfish *******s who wrote what they wrote because they wanted to exploit people's goodwill and gullibility. It is important to see the whole picture, to know what was written - it is important to filter out all the harmful parts of the Bible.
Take a step back and look at the Bible again. Do you honestly think someone was inspired when he wrote all the sh*t about homosexuals? Do you honestly think that is God's message?
Why would a common man write stuff like that? Maybe he had a need to ridicule gays or hold them in contempt. Maybe he wanted to alienate those that were different from him, and in the minority? Whatever the reasons, it just doesn't jive well with what Jesus tells us to do, does it? Make of it what you will, but I know a bigot when I see one. Unnatural? Why? Would God care if his people loved their own sex - as long as they loved each other?
It's the same when people get all riled up over whether creationism or evolution is to be believed, or whether it is okay to have sex before marriage. All these people are missing the greater message, the bigger picture of the bible - love your fellow Man like you would be loved yourself. Christians killing abortion doctors are completely and utterly misguided - they have so lost connection to the centrol, most important message of Christianity that they've taken to abusing the Bible. They're in the dark, hitting everyone with a Bible whose flashlight doesn't give off the same colour as their own.
While those people have lost touch with the meaning of cooperation, I know we haven't. Now chill, and love each other.
Originally posted by Darth Murphy
Yeah but I don't believe in Christianity as do many others so your tree of knowledge crap is up to debate. I personally believe in the theory of evolution and what Iranaeus stated we were born imperfect. (The irony he's a Christian I am aware of)
Yes the Bible isn't to be trusted because we don't know sqat about God, the Bible should be known as the book of contradictions not the book of Revelations.
No, but I doubt God would let you influence him because you're well insiginificant in comparrison to God, I have never heard of anything so ludicrous I'll influence God of the error of God's ways.
Speaking with God (if you believe you're doing that) isn't futile but you believing you can reason with him and influence him is.
I doubt the Christians will have a field day with this because what I havce stated basically means that God can exist without religion, if anything they'll have a wet weekend with it.
You speak as if I believe in God and Christianity; I don't. And I do as you believe that reasoning with God (if he existed) is pretty futile hence the second part of my original sentence thereof.
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Which proves you are bashing. Don't. It's against the rules. I have NEVER told you that you are stupid, I have NEVER announced you will burn in hell, I have NEVER insulted your mother. I have done NOTHING to you. I believe in the Bible. That gives you the right to call me naive and weak? I believe the answer I am looking for is "no."
Your beliefs and statements of oppinion offend me, yet I do not threaten you with banishment.
Originally posted by obi-wan13
...I do NOT Put up with ANY name calling on these boards for ANY reason. Got it, top cop?
I hope you can see what I want to point out here. Look closely.
Originally posted by InsaneSith
http://www.boomspeed.com/insanesith/owned.gif)
anyways. don't bash individuals jubatus.
How presumptuous.