Originally posted by Prime
I had a look at your demos, Razorace. Looks pretty cool. I have a few questions though. First, are you guys set to walk by default? The whole fight you are just walking around. Is that just to make it easier to follow? Secondly, it seemed to me that there were several times when the saber seemed to go right through the other player without there being any damage. Am I missing something there? Maybe I'm just used to seeing crummy collision detection. I love the fact that the saber damage was higher, and after a few hits, the other player was dead.
Thanks. No, we were walking to try to make it easier to see the blade collisions. The demo recording also makes the controls a bit harder to use, especially on the lag-o-mania JK2 is on my dial up. :|Can you explain a little more what you are changing?You mean specifically with the saber system? It's pretty complicated. I suggest you repost the question in the MotF Forum.Hey look! More trolls in here! :DI'm pretty sure it's just Break_DF with new account. They're acting the same, posting in pairs, and it's a brand new account. I've reported the bunch of them.
solo: first thing I would do is redo all the animations and the animations system. Second would be making sure I had an engine that supported ragdoll physics, karma or something else. Movement speed, weapons, models, sounds, music....I would want to redo it all.
Theres nothing in the original JO I would really want to keep, from the way the weapons fire to the way your strafe animation plays. It's a shame I'm under NDA can't talk about swg since I've been beta testing it for a long time now, and it would be easier to be able to compare to something else. Only other thing I have to compare with is obi-wan and most people just shut down after they read the name.
Sorry I can't give more detailed examples right now, just had my wisdoms yanked and I'm all high on drugs.
Originally posted by Jolts
solo: first thing I would do is redo all the animations and the animations system. Second would be making sure I had an engine that supported ragdoll physics, karma or something else. Movement speed, weapons, models, sounds, music....I would want to redo it all.
Theres nothing in the original JO I would really want to keep, from the way the weapons fire to the way your strafe animation plays. It's a shame I'm under NDA can't talk about swg since I've been beta testing it for a long time now, and it would be easier to be able to compare to something else. Only other thing I have to compare with is obi-wan and most people just shut down after they read the name.
Sorry I can't give more detailed examples right now, just had my wisdoms yanked and I'm all high on drugs.
*resists urge to ask questions about SWG*
I'll try to ask something as innocent as possible.... judging that you were wanting to compare JO's dueling system to SWG's.... is it or is not safe to assume that SWG will have a kind of saber dueling for would be Jedi? DON"T ASNWER IF YOU CAN"T!!!!!11111
btw.. aren't there mods at this forum? Last forum I was at Break would have been IP banned so long ago it's not even funny.
Too bad I'm not a Richard Simmons Junkie, huh RIL?
I was thinking more of other weapon comparisons, not lightsabers or anything like that. More design and keeping the feel of the movies.
Well, from the sound of it, you seem to be suggesting that SWG is going to be pretty true to the feel of the movies, something that I felt JO lacked in a big way.
I'm actually curious about Obi-Wan. Did that game ever come out on ANY platform, or did they cancel it altogether? And what was the combat system in that one like?
As for mods on this forum, if this thread is any indication, I'd say this forum is pretty much Thunderdome. :)
obi-wan came out on xbox. It was nothing that the original pc version was supposed to be, not even close. Only thing the same was you played as obiwan during tpm.
The controls were cool, could have used some work. Right thumb stick moved forward, left thumb stick controled the saber. That felt pretty good to me. Double tap up on the thumb stick to do a special saber spin in the hand trick. Hold back on the thumb stick to deflect a shot back at the person who shot at you and lose some force mana. You had a few saber force moves that were nothing special. Left trigger was the force modifier button and you used that with you normal buttons to use force powers.
Saber system in obi wan let you become much more accurate than JO. You could swing you saber left/right/whatever standing still or while running.
The limited force powers in the game jump/push/throw/pull/saberthrow and speed(slowmo bullet time) all worked out to be fun to use, and for me felt better than JO's. I like being able to just pull a gun out of someones hand, instead of pulling them down and the gun. In obiwan I can pull a gun out of someones hand, push them down, then throw something at them and kill them. Just felt better. Having ragdoll physics for powers like force throw also helped make the player seem more powerful.
Basic gameplay was the same as JO. You start out in a level with your mission objective and go from point a to point b killing everything. Obi wan actually had a little more ingame npc interaction, but thats not saying much. I have been digging around the obiwan cd tearing out audio files and other stuff and can see in some of the old scripts what was once ingame, and it would have blown JO away.
Obi wan actually had bigger more detailed levels than JO. What it didn't have was curved surfaces 1024by1024 textures and 3000 poly models. But it did have bump maps and pixel shading on water.
AI obi wan had better ai than JO, and again thats not saying much. AI would spread around you, avoiding getting to close, unless they were melee characters like tuskens or jin ha. They could do acrobatics you could, and moved in a more normal pace.
obi wan felt like star wars to me, while jo kind of felt like star wars. I could go on and on, but for me as a single player and ls dueling 1on1 game I had more fun with obiwan than JO.
Okay, how about people try to get on, eh?
Break_DF has been temporarily banned for flaming and trolling.
Go-TiME...the other members of these boards deserve respect. If you have a point to make, then don't flame. Any more posts in this vein will get you banned. I look forward to your cooperation. :cool:
As for everyone else, you all know the rules, so try to keep this discussion on track, or this thread is heading for closure...
Originally posted by StormHammer
Okay, how about people try to get on, eh?
Break_DF has been temporarily banned for flaming and trolling.
Go-TiME...the other members of these boards deserve respect. If you have a point to make, then don't flame. Any more posts in this vein will get you banned. I look forward to your cooperation. :cool:
As for everyone else, you all know the rules, so try to keep this discussion on track, or this thread is heading for closure...
suck my **** douche bag
Woah, you don't need the Force to know someone's going to get permabanned real soon.
Originally posted by Go-TiME
suck my **** douche bag
You are the worst troll ever...
Toodles... :D
Originally posted by Solo4114:
As for mods on this forum, if this thread is any indication, I'd say this forum is pretty much Thunderdome. The only difference is: here, the one who leaves has lost. ;)
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Well, from the sound of it, you seem to be suggesting that SWG is going to be pretty true to the feel of the movies, something that I felt JO lacked in a big way.I gotta few questions:
Was it just the flechette and certain Force Powers that made it feel non-starwars in your opinion?
It was comparable to the original JK which was also excellent, did you play JK1?
Is there anything that changed in JO that made JO less Star Warsy than JK?
Heck, JK1 was worse in my opinion. I did like Force Blind thou. Don't get me wrong, I loved JK1. It had a better story but it's force powers were a bit....off the path. :)
For me it wasn't just the weapons and force powers, it was a bunch of little things all combined. Weapon design was bad, the conc in jki had more star wars design to it.Raild det...eh, not really very starwarsy.
AI in JO was pretty bad. It didn't have to be smart to capture the sw feel. In obi wan they would offset shooting in characters, and while a few shot at you the rest would reposition They would also take about 3 shots rest and take 3 more. They didn't just see you, all start firing at the same time at 100mps with no let up. Everything in JO was very uniformed it all happend at once. In the movies you see things like 3 shots, wait, 3 more shots. Obi wan got that, JO didn't.
Everything doesn't have to move at 100mps in order to have fast paced combat, its awsome to have hardcore action but at the same time be able to see the whats going on and plan out some cool moves. You could do that in obi wan, in Jo I would be end usually having a trooper run into my saber blade while I was blocking the constant fire. SO many kills were robbed from me by that system.
Level design in JO really didn't feel like star wars to me at all. It had some star wars looking textures, but basically I could have been in the same imperial base the whole time and never really noticed a difference. For the imperial base levels that is.
The level textures were pretty bad, me and my friends did a run through of the game looking at textures and just calling out the obvious photoshop plugins and filters used for each one it gave them all hope of getting a job in the game industry. Doom giver didn't feel like a ship, it felt like an extention of the first 2 levels or something. Textures looked like concrete with lights stuck in them. Maybe if they updated the shader and lighting system they could have pulled off some nice metalic shaders.
But raven got jacked by that 1 year timelimit, so I can see how limiting that would be. That leaves no time for a second pass, or gameplay cleanup. Those are just a few things that didn't make JO feel that starwarsy to me.
Originally posted by Jolts:
For me it wasn't just the weapons and force powers, it was a bunch of little things all combined. Weapon design was bad, the conc in jki had more star wars design to it.Raild det...eh, not really very starwarsy.Okay, you think weapon design was bad... Why? What about the weapons was bad? The energy weapons were all well-executed, thermals were still in, all pretty good. Which weapons specifically didn't you like?
Originally posted by Jolts:
Everything in JO was very uniformed it all happend at once. In the movies you see things like 3 shots, wait, 3 more shots. Obi wan got that, JO didn't.In Obi Wan, as far as I'm aware, not having played it, one mainly used a lightsabre. In JO one had many gun battles too, so of course the combat has to be more challenging and all-out. As for "like the movies", once again I'm sorry, but being "like the movies" isn't as important as being challenging and dynamic. Playable, in other words. And "cool moves"? you want "time to plan"? where's the excitement in that? Where's the rush, the flow or the sense of danger? One might as well play on padawan skill and be done with it...
As I said before, JO was a natural sequel to JK, and it had a similar dynamic and scope, and was a touch slower even. So if you want big sweeping changes, the place for those is a completely different game. The Dark Forces series is made in a certain style, there are a lot of people who really enjoy that style, so frankly, quit trying to change it. Nothing good can come of such an effort.
I all ways wondered why JK2 on the CTF maps only had a few!!! was it because of trying to rush a game to the shelf? or did they look at it as something to upgrade after release, or just maybe let the gaming community mod more for them self's? as to me CtF is one of the best things about JK2 (as you don't have to be good at every thing to play well) but I think it was one with the least maps.
myself I need to maybe down load a CtF map mod and get to a server running them, as them same ol maps are making me go stir crazy LOL
*sigh* its quite amusing (well not really) that everyone is accusing break of the extreme ego, when *gasp* they start in with "i am quite famous since blah blah blah" or "i was staff here and won this and that"
omg guys get a life!!! you are acting no better than he (only with more flair), yet you try to elevate yourself above the rest of us. i for one don't give a rats ass who you are and what you've done. i don't "respect" or "honor" people for their reputations, i respect them for the level of maturity they show, and many of you have shown little outside of polished writing skills. i mean, hell look at break (if you can bear to :P). he may insult people, that is true. he grates against your very natures, but he doesn't try to disguise and sugar coat it to show off to his fanboys when he does, unlike a few i see here. (yeah you prime, spider al, and prolly a few others)
now, get back on the topic for christ's sake, and stay on it instead of taking offense at every comment that doesn't seem to conform with your ideas.
I didn't like the way the weapons, looked, fired, and played. I didn't like the effects on the firing and I didn't like the smell of them.
when I'm talking about time to plan that doesn't mean action is slowed down, that means while I'm hacking the first layer around me, I can watch the animations on the others and see where they are heading and what type of action they are going to do. Are they lowering down getting ready to fire? or are they getting ready to bring in something bigger?
As for being like the movies I was talking more as creating the atmosphere of the movies. Its hard to explain unless you've played it. And whats dynamic about running around blocking blaster shots that sound like your deflecting ping pong balls, while at the same time having storm troopers running into your lightsaber? Whats dynamic about a power that always knocks everything in your fov down at the same time while they all get up at the same time? Whats dynamic about troopers that just shoot and never stop? What is dynamic star wars game play? 100 weapons 100 force powers and a box full of troopers and at-at's standing still all firing at the same time?
Time to plan doesn't need to be more than a second, its lets push these 3 down, choke this one, then ninja flip around hacking the rest. Sense of danger doesn't always have to be 100 people running at you with autofire on. Undying had a constant sence of danger with not many cratures attacking at once. When it came, it came hard and fast.
The action in obiwan was just as fast and hardcore as jo, just more clean. But the whole thing me and solo were talking about was capturing the feel of star wars and what we liked. He had never played obi wan and asked what it was like. so I made some examples for him, thats it. Out of the 2 games obi wan had a closer to star wars feel from sounds to animation to weapon design to level design. And thats the only other game I can use to compare to JO.
obi wan is an exellent game that is for sure
Al,
First off, I'd like to apologize for going off the handle with you earlier. I think that one of the reasons why I get heated up about this issue (and possibly why many of us get heated up, though I can't speak for everyone else) is that I saw such potential for this game, and I really WANTED it to be cooler than it turned out. Although many folks who've posted in this thread may want different end results, in that sense, I think a lot of us were let down. You seem to feel that, as far as MP goes, the changes implemented by Raven at the urging of one particular vocal part of the community ruined a game that could have been. Though I may disagree with exactly what I wanted the end result to be, I can definitely sympathize with the feeling of what could have been.
I think Jolt has hit on at least one of the major aspects of the game that led to it lacking the Star Wars feel I was looking for, though I did enjoy SP.
For MP, I suppose the level design came into play in failing to create that Star Wars feel. Some of the textures and environments seemed similar to the movie, but the levels just seemed kind of small and pointless. Run around, grab this gun, go kill a guy. That, however, is my main problem with DM play. It just doesn't really excite me that much. MAybe the problem with JO, for me at least, was that the CTF mode of play always felt under-supported. There really were only, what, 6 maps that were released by Raven? These maps were often just mirror image maps, which can be fun sometimes, but can also get boring after a while. Even if the maps hadn't been mirror image style maps, they still would've gotten old with only 6 of 'em to play, especially since some maps were less fun to play than others (Nar Shadda was always an irritating one for me -- nothing but throwing people off the runways on that one). I'd probably be singing the praises of this game if the CTF mode had had more support for it, more maps that were more interesting, and really just more people playing on 'em. Also, when you think about it, in terms of map design, approaches to the flag points were fairly limited, so coming up with creative strategies ended up being kind of pointless.
In terms of the guns, yeah, the type of projectiles that they fired was a big part of why they felt less "Star Wars" to me. Even if the EU says that the flechette gun shoots explosive charges, I just didn't think they'd look like bouncing balls. As for the heavy repeater, if it does fire a secondary plasma ball o' death (the one back in DF and JK1 fired a three shot round, more like a limited shotgun), I wouldn't expect it to be quite as big, or look the way it did in the game. As far as the other weapons go, the thermal detonaters were fine, as was the E-11 and the Bryar. The trip mines were ok, but I hardly ever used 'em. Same goes for the detpacks. The bowcaster is straight out of the films and previous games, and I had no real problem with it, it just never seemed very useful. The disruptor may be from the Star Wars EU books, but it felt like Raven just ripped it from Elite Force and stuck it into JO. The missile launcher was ok, there's nothing inherently UN-Star Wars about it, but when combined with how the other guns operated, it just felt like you were being given the same old smorgasbord (sp?) of guns that you usually find in an FPS. When I play a Star Wars game, I'm looking for something different.
Also, in terms of the guns, the LOOK of the guns lacked a real Star Wars feel to me. As I mentioned, guns from the films all look like real world small arms because they actually ARE real world small arms, just with various doo-dads stuck to 'em. :) Solo's DL-44 is just an old Mauser C96 with a scope and some other stuff attached to it. The E-11 is a Sterling SMG. The larger Stormtrooper heavy blasters or repeating blasters are old German WWII machineguns or British machineguns. The guns in this game felt more blocky, less sleek, and with less resonance to real world weapons (which the film guns had). Take the flak gun, for example. It looks essentially like a cinderblock with a pistol butt attached to it. Even the repeater changed from JK1 and DF, where it looked reasonably slim by comparison, to a huge bulky gun that looks like it'd be pretty awkward to wield. The missile launcher was ok in this respect (in terms of looks, I mean), though it too seemed a little bulky. Really, the only guns that were true to the look and feel of the films were the ones that were taken directly from the films or operated the same way.
As far as JK1 (and DF for that matter) goes, I did play both in their time. JK1 was somewhat better than JO. The concussion rifle had the right look to it, and I suppose shot the right sort of projectiles to give it the feel I was looking for in a Star Wars game. The bowcaster, thermals, E-11, bryar, etc. were all fine, just as they were in this game, and the other explosives operated much the same way as one would expect. The railgun was a bit weird, though, and felt somewhat out of place.
What I've always wanted, though, was something more true to the films. Weapons in Star Wars are less about shooting big explosive projectiles and more about shooting essentially laser bullets. As in the real world, you can have blasters that perform different jobs. Sniper rifle blasters, shotgun style blasters, pistols of different calibers (well, maybe not calibers, but different power), etc. With the exception of the bowcaster and the E-11, none of the other guns have ever really used this style. Take the fusion cutter from DF. That had NOTHING to do with anything anyone had ever seen in Star Wars. I still think you could put in nothing but blaster style weapons, with one or two explosive weapons (IE: the concussion rifle -- as the name suggests, it should shoot something explosive that produces a concussive effect; or some sort of light rocket or missile launcher). You could just have different guns that perform different tasks. A sniper blaster would be great at long range, but worthless in close combat, so you'd switch to your DL-44 (why did this gun only ever appear officially in MoTS??) or your E-11 or some other close quarters weapon.
As far as the force powers go, I can accept that some stuff has to be sacrificed from the films to make them fun in the game, although a lot of them seemed overused or ill implemented. Absorb in 1.2 is a classic example. It operated almost identically to how it did in later iterations, but it had the old blue glow, which made its use pretty much worthless, except as a means to buy time. When it changed, though, drain became kind of useless too. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded tossing BOTH these powers out the window (bring back throw, dammit! I miss tossing boxes at people) and instead having some sort of innate defensive power that will cancel force powers being used against you. Grip, lightning, push and pull seemed basically ok in theory, but were also implemented strangely. Push and pull were easy to spam, and could've used some sort of cool down period so you don't simply keep hitting push-push-push until someone is knocked down completely. Like, it'd take one or two seconds before you could push or pull again. Pull should NEVER have been able to pull a guy down, just take his weapon. Heal was poorly implemented in that it gave an instant boost (albeit a weak one, depending, or a costly one), where a gradual regeneration would probably have been more appropriate. I don't care if you're Yoda, it ought to take you time to close a gaping wound. Mind trick and seeing were only marginally useful (or at least, marginally used) in MP combat, and seem to be more useful for SP play. Jump and speed were basically fine. Rage had no business being in the game, and neither did protect.
Force powers in JK1 were kind of goofy too (IE: the old protect bubble, deadly sight, destruction, etc.), but it's been so long since I played that game that I don't really remember what all of them were.
Hell, I dunno. Maybe having fewer force powers, but implementing them better (or having other more innate force powers -- IE: ability to sense danger/enemy presence, ability to resist the use of the force against you, ability to block shots that don't always reflect back at the attacker, etc.) would've worked better.
Anyway, those are some of the reasons why I didn't like guns and force powers. The sabre is a whole other story which would take a long post in and of itself to explain, so I'll save that for some other time (or just not post it at all -- my posts do tend to run a bit long ;) ).
Originally posted by Rumor:
now, get back on the topic for christ's sake, and stay on it instead of taking offense at every comment that doesn't seem to conform with your ideas.We were already back on topic when you posted this, and if anyone's taking offence wrongly here, it's someone not a million miles away from you who's taken offence at posts not directed at him.
Nobody's trying to belittle you when they point out a troll's inadequacies, and people listing their own Jedi Outcast achievements in defence of accusations that they "know nothing about JO" really shouldn't have such a negative effect on you.
I'm not sure what you meant to accomplish by your post, but it just seems like another beginning to a flame war. Sigh.
In fact, are you BREAK? Very suspicious.
Originally posted by Jolts:
I didn't like the way the weapons, looked, fired, and played. I didn't like the effects on the firing and I didn't like the smell of them.Yeah, I understand you didn't like them mate. What I'm asking for is your reasons for disliking them, things like "Flechette firing rate too high, made it too powerful etc." which other people have expressed. I can't see your point of view clearly unless you articulate it for me.
Originally posted by Jolts:
when I'm talking about time to plan that doesn't mean action is slowed down, that means while I'm hacking the first layer around me, I can watch the animations on the others and see where they are heading and what type of action they are going to do. Are they lowering down getting ready to fire? or are they getting ready to bring in something bigger?I understand this. However, you're still talking about having a warning of what's coming next. Personally I find leaping into a hail of gunfire and having only my skill and reflexes to rely on, exciting.
And don't sell JO's AI short, it was fairly dynamic in that Stormtroopers attempted to surround you, and if an officer was present in their group they did so much more efficiently, and their morale was higher. I had a whale of a time taking out officers first and running after the demoralised stragglers. It was great. :)
Originally posted by Jolts:
Undying had a constant sence of danger with not many cratures attacking at once. When it came, it came hard and fast.
Undying was a suspense/horror game, and very good at its job too. Added to this, the creatures in undying were somewhat more deadly, to compensate for their relative numbers. And of course, there WERE moments when you were swamped with creatures in Undying, notably the levels full of howlers and undead leading up to Lizbeth's crypt. The DF series however, has always been about liquidating large numbers of foes using your leet skillz0rz.
I don't know about you, but I don't find stormtroopers suspenseful enough to occupy my restless mind when I'm not busy fighting them, which howlers from Undying, cyborgs from SS2 and face-huggers from AvP DID.
Lots of large-scale action is one of the defining characteristics that has made DF one of the most long-lasting, popular game series in recent years. Changing that would be atrocious.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
I'd probably be singing the praises of this game if the CTF mode had had more support for it, more maps that were more interesting, and really just more people playing on 'em.
An interesting idea about the CTF maps... But it's an important thing to remember that from a competitive point of view mirror image maps are the only ones that are fair to both teams. If the maps hadn't been mirror image, a lot of players would have been complaining that they were imbalanced, as if they didn't whine enough in CTF already. Ugh. "TEEEMZ TEEEMZ TEEEMZ r UNEVEN!!!11"
Re: what you disliked about the guns- personally, as I say, I'm less interested in making the game like the movies than I am in making the game good. If there were only energy weapons with a few minor thermals/tripmines, the sabre would be all-powerful. I know you'd probably say that was no bad thing, but I definitely would: Weak guns = worthless guns = sabre all the time = no point having guns at all. Re: the look of the guns, okay... the Flechette looked big and square. I can't say it bothered me that much, or that it seemed instantly "un-starwarsy". SW by its very nature was eclectic, and the set designs and props were all very diverse. I don't think SW had any underlying ideal surrounding its choice of scenery, tools or weapons. In reality, it was merely buck rogers on a better budget with a better cast.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge SW fan. I just don't have any illusions that it was divine in its message or continuity.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Even the repeater changed from JK1 and DF, where it looked reasonably slim by comparison, to a huge bulky gun that looks like it'd be pretty awkward to wield.Well it was a different gun. Heavy repeater, etc.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
As far as JK1 (and DF for that matter) goes, I did play both in their time. JK1 was somewhat better than JO. The concussion rifle had the right look to it, and I suppose shot the right sort of projectiles to give it the feel I was looking for in a Star Wars game.I'm surprised that you say that. The concussion rifle was more devastating in JK than the heavy repeater, which you dislike, was in JO. From a practical standpoint the conky was massively "imbalanced" to use the parlance I dislike.
I'm getting the impression that the way the guns look is very important to you. I can't pretend to understand that, it seems trivial to me. As long as they don't look like big purple beach-balls, I'm fine with it. :D
Re: Force powers, I agree with some of your points, and if you cast your eye back over earlier threads, you'll see the same things being posted by myself, and many others. But the possibility that the DF4 dev will ever look on this forum is remote, so I'm not convinced of the usefulness of such sentiments. That's why I don't repeat myself anymore.
In the final analysis, I play games for a long time. I'm a long term player of a single game. Minor graphical concerns fade away quite quickly when you play a game a lot, and what's important is that the game has good solid gameplay. That's the most important thing that a game should possess. Everything else is window-dressing.
Originally posted by Spider AL
In fact, are you BREAK? Very suspicious.
can i make complete sentences that are longer than three words?
Originally posted by Spider AL
An interesting idea about the CTF maps... But it's an important thing to remember that from a competitive point of view mirror image maps are the only ones that are fair to both teams. If the maps hadn't been mirror image, a lot of players would have been complaining that they were imbalanced, as if they didn't whine enough in CTF already. Ugh. "TEEEMZ TEEEMZ TEEEMZ r UNEVEN!!!11"
I see your point re: competitive maps needing mirror images. I do think you can play a competitive map, however, and have it be asymetrical, you'd just have to make sure that both sides of the map were (brace yourself) BALANCED! :D Just kidding. Well, sort of. By balanced, I mean fair to both teams. Neither side of the map would be easier to defend or attack, they'd just be different. Otherwise, you'd end up probably having one team be more on defense, and one on offense more, and if that's the case, why bother having two flags at all? Take, for example the Lavafort map in UT CTF. Granted, the approaches to the bases are identical, but the bases themselves are different, and may require different approach tactics to actually snag the flag and begin your run back home. To me, that's a balanced, but (minorly) asymetrical map. That'd be the kind of design I'm looking for in a good asymetrical CTF map.
Re: what you disliked about the guns- personally, as I say, I'm less interested in making the game like the movies than I am in making the game good. If there were only energy weapons with a few minor thermals/tripmines, the sabre would be all-powerful. I know you'd probably say that was no bad thing, but I definitely would: Weak guns = worthless guns = sabre all the time = no point having guns at all.
A good point. Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to sacrifice gameplay fun for SW authenticity. Given the choice between fun and authenticity, I'd definitely pick fun (otherwise, why play the game in the first place?). I do think that you could still have more blaster weapons and have them vary in power. To help avoid having weak guns and unstoppable sabres, you could make one's ability to block a blaster shot dependent upon the relative strength of the shot. Your blocking ability could be tied to a.) how powerful the shot is and b.) how many shots you have to block. You could even tie it to whether you're standing still or moving (the game may have done that, I don't remember -- it seemed that at lvl 3 defense, it didn't matter much). The longer you've been blocking, the more likely it is that you'll lose your concentration and shots will slip through. In terms of the strength of the shot, the more poweful the blast, the fewer times you can block one. You could even bring back the concussion rifle and have it's shot be unblockable (but affected by force push so, if you were fast enough, you could direct it back at the enemy). I definitely don't want all powerful sabre wielders. If you're playing as a jedi type character, you should still be vulnerable to a great big explosion. Take the Geonosis arena battle, when the Geonosians bring out that gigantic cannon and kill, like, 5 jedi in one shot. Jedi should still be vulnerable to guns, but those guns should still have a Star Wars feel to them.
Re: the look of the guns, okay... the Flechette looked big and square. I can't say it bothered me that much, or that it seemed instantly "un-starwarsy". SW by its very nature was eclectic, and the set designs and props were all very diverse. I don't think SW had any underlying ideal surrounding its choice of scenery, tools or weapons. In reality, it was merely buck rogers on a better budget with a better cast.
See, to me, the look of the guns is important. Not necessarily as important as making the game fun, but if the guns look and feel more Star Wars, then the game will be more fun to me. Plus, when I'm playing a Star Wars game, dammit, I want it to feel like Star Wars. :) The whole point of playing a Star Wars game, as opposed to, say, Elite Force, or Quake 3, or UT2k3 or what have you, is because I want to play in that particular universe. Towards that end, the look, sound, feel, and function of the weapons in-game need to at least approximate, if not stay 100% true to their film counterparts. When things get tricky is when you include things not seen in the films to flesh things out and make the game more interesting. I've no problem with doing that, I just want them to function along the same lines and have the same kind of look as the films. Above all, though, the game should still be fun to play. As far as the design of the sets, props, etc. goes, it WAS Buck Rogers with a better budget, but if you look at the guns in the films, they look different enough to appear futuristic, but not so different as to appear totally alien to the audience. They look believable as guns, and when they fire, you're willing to believe that that's probably how they'd operate, given the environment in which the films occur. That's what I'm looking for: something that jives with the rest of the design theme (even if that theme was based purely on budget concerns) so as to maintain the believability of the weapons. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean to say, though, so I'm just gonna move on. :D
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge SW fan. I just don't have any illusions that it was divine in its message or continuity.
Well sure. Just look at that whole midichlorian thing. Where the hell did THAT come from? One movie we get zen buddhism in space, another movie we get, "No, no, it's little bacteria." :confused:
Well it was a different gun. Heavy repeater, etc.
Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
I'm surprised that you say that. The concussion rifle was more devastating in JK than the heavy repeater, which you dislike, was in JO. From a practical standpoint the conky was massively "imbalanced" to use the parlance I dislike.
See, I thought that it was balanced in terms of things like ammo consumption, rate of fire, etc. Sure it was powerful. Nothing wrong with having powerful weapons in a game. In fact, it makes things interesting. But it also had some downsides to it. The rate of fire was lower than other weapons, the weapon had no spread to it's shots, aside from the concussive blast when it made contact, and (if memory serves) it ate up more ammo than any other gun. To me, that's balanced. You have benefits, but they are offset by disadvantages. Balancing does NOT equal across-the-board nerfing. It simply means (to me, at least) that the weapon or action performed in the game has pros and cons to its use and that, while something may be powerful, there are counters that can be used against it, and it has disadvantages upon which an opponent may capitalize (assuming they have the skill, creativity, etc.).
I'm getting the impression that the way the guns look is very important to you. I can't pretend to understand that, it seems trivial to me. As long as they don't look like big purple beach-balls, I'm fine with it. :D
See above. Though, yes, big purple beach balls would be a problem. :D
Re: Force powers, I agree with some of your points, and if you cast your eye back over earlier threads, you'll see the same things being posted by myself, and many others. But the possibility that the DF4 dev will ever look on this forum is remote, so I'm not convinced of the usefulness of such sentiments. That's why I don't repeat myself anymore.
I dunno. If I was a dev, I'd at least want to guage fan reaction to prior games before developing a new one in the series. At the same time, I'd glance over forums like this, if only to see if someone there had come up with a good idea I wanted to use. Then again, if I were under a deadline to get a game out by X-mas and it's August, I might not look quite as thoroughly. :)
In the final analysis, I play games for a long time. I'm a long term player of a single game. Minor graphical concerns fade away quite quickly when you play a game a lot, and what's important is that the game has good solid gameplay. That's the most important thing that a game should possess. Everything else is window-dressing.
I agree that gameplay is paramount. And I too am a LONG time game player. I still play Star Control 2 and that's an old DOS game. The graphics are 2d and, while good for its time, are now HEAVILY dated, but because it's a great game with a great story, I still play it. But, if it's a game that's based on a license, and that game doesn't accurately caputre the feel of the licensed material, I may not be sucked in as easily and may not end up sticking around long. Also, at least in terms of JO, I found that the gameplay in its base form was not all that compelling so, even if the game had had fancy graphics, I probably would've gotten bored with it after a while. From the looks of things, though, there may yet be hope, if the mod community can start developing mods that do more than let you pick lightsabre colors and hilts, do pirouettes (sp?), and pretend you are a nerf herder from Dantooine.
Starcontrol 2 is a E ticket ride all the way. :)
Not to get too far off topic, but razorace, you should check out the Pages of Now and Forever. (
www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol) Fred Ford and Paul Reich III have released the source code to SC2 and it's been rereleased as a windows native program called the Ur-Quan Masters. Check it out! :)
Really?! Last I heard the source code had been lost. I guess they found it. :)
Retro-fest. Heh.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Take, for example the Lavafort map in UT CTF. Granted, the approaches to the bases are identical, but the bases themselves are different, and may require different approach tactics to actually snag the flag and begin your run back home. To me, that's a balanced, but (minorly) asymetrical map. That'd be the kind of design I'm looking for in a good asymetrical CTF map. Well, I've never played UT to any great standard, but at a cursory glance the blue base in Lava Giant(?) seems to have much superior sniping/defensive spots. That's really my point, differences almost always = advantages for one team. Sure, there HAVE been asymmetrical maps which were fairly "balanced" but they're few. Happened upon by accident, probably.
Even the slightest changes convey advantages. Take Yavin CTF: Red base has two lines of innocuous pillars in it. Made my life much easier when I came to get the red flag and ran out of Force. Dodging in and out all the time... mmm...
Intentional balance of the type you're talking about... well, as I've said elsewhere, even chess isn't balanced.
But I agree variety in maps is great, as long as there are some good mirror-image maps that can be used competitively in the game.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
I do think that you could still have more blaster weapons and have them vary in power. To help avoid having weak guns and unstoppable sabres, you could make one's ability to block a blaster shot dependent upon the relative strength of the shotYes, one could make more interesting blaster weapons. But unless some weapons are inherently capable of penetrating the lightsabre, whoosh, all-powerful lightsabre.
Also, the more complex you make the blocking system, the more prone to lag failiure it'll be, which will annoy the huge number of people who have some sort of latency problem. Single-key Manual with penalties would be nice, but I'm not here to expound my own theories on blocking methods.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
The whole point of playing a Star Wars game, as opposed to, say, Elite Force, or Quake 3, or UT2k3 or what have you, is because I want to play in that particular universe.Well, I have to disagree here. The point of playing a DF game is because they're well polished, first-person shooters with hyper-real physics, arcane special powers and decent melee combat. DF has always skirted the canon when it comes to Star Wars. Dark Jedi? Thats an oxymoron, that is. Force-crystals? Force Destruction?
DF has never been and I hope never will be so ultra-faithful to the films that it loses the unique feel and flavour that the original carved out.
DF is a NEW experience. It's not pure SW. It's a hybrid, a blend. It's unacceptable to try and squish that. Too many people love it.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
See, I thought that it was balanced in terms of things like ammo consumption, rate of fire, etc. Sure it was powerful. Nothing wrong with having powerful weapons in a game. In fact, it makes things interesting. But it also had some downsides to it. The rate of fire was lower than other weapons, the weapon had no spread to it's shots, aside from the concussive blast when it made contact, and (if memory serves) it ate up more ammo than any other gun.Oh no, totally imbalanced. Two-three shot stop, like the flechette. Difference is: The conky bolt travelled in a completely straight, nigh-infinite line, very very fast, and had about the same firing rate as the flechette secondary too. Easy to hit, much easier to make than flechette kills. Ammo was always plentiful in JK too, especially with the backpack dropping.
It was quite a lot of work to hog the power cells, armour and conky in JK, and that was the best way to win.
JO was much better in that there were two... maybe even three other guns that could rival the flechette. Rocket L, Heavy Rep and Tenloss at range. That meant the levels played in a much more fluid fashion.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
To me, that's balanced. You have benefits, but they are offset by disadvantages. Balancing does NOT equal across-the-board nerfing. It simply means (to me, at least) that the weapon or action performed in the game has pros and cons to its use and that, while something may be powerful, there are counters that can be used against it, and it has disadvantages upon which an opponent may capitalize (assuming they have the skill, creativity, etc.).Oh, there are always disadvantages to any weapon that good players try to capitalise on. Let's take the flechette as an example again. Range was key with the flechette. It wasn't much use to most players at long range, and was hazardous to the user at short range, very vulnerable to a well-timed push. Thus the intelligent player cultivated an ability to maintain a mid-range with the flechette. Opponents tried to increase that, or cut it down. Repeater on the other hand was a good rival because of its high rate of primary fire which could be utilised in close, and secondary fire that was far less high-risk in close. It could be used at long range very effectively. Paradoxically, the rocket launcher was best in close, or when the opponent wasn't aware of one. It was nearly useless at long range, very good for mid-air primary shots on the fly, however.
But as I've said elsewhere, name me a gun and I can think of genuine disadvantages inherent in it. There will always be a gun that's MOST powerful however, and decent players will always compensate very quickly through their style of play, for any disadvantages there are. People learned to aim well with the flechette. To sweep areas with it. They became very VERY good at maintaining that middle-distance.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
I dunno. If I was a dev, I'd at least want to guage fan reaction to prior games before developing a new one in the series.Maybe, if the dev's unusually dedicated and doesn't mind wading through the gazillion opinion threads... and if anything we say now applies in the future when gaming's evolved another few years' worth.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
That's what I'm looking for: something that jives with the rest of the design theme (even if that theme was based purely on budget concerns) so as to maintain the believability of the weapons. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what I mean to say, though, so I'm just gonna move on.No, I get you. But what IS the Star Wars "theme"? I'm not sure even SW scholars could tell you. George Lucas certainly doesn't seem to know. He's dressed all the Jedi as "desert hermits" for some reason. He's made shiny what was dirty and made cutesy what was gritty, and that's just in RotJ. The prequels? Don't get me started. :(
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Also, at least in terms of JO, I found that the gameplay in its base form was not all that compelling so, even if the game had had fancy graphics, I probably would've gotten bored with it after a while.Well, of course, since it's a Star Wars game you feel the urge to change it to be more to your liking. When I don't think much of a game, I leave it alone. I don't bother about it.
If this game didn't have the words "Star Wars" in the title, nobody would care, I don't think...
Originally posted by Solo4114:
if the mod community can start developing mods that do more than let you pick lightsabre colors and hilts, do pirouettes (sp?), and pretend you are a nerf herder from Dantooine.Quite. Hope springs eternal...
Yergh.
"I run this clothes shop on Drazen isle!"
"And I'm here to rob you and steal all your takings. Die."
*Tzzztt!*
"LAMOR NO KILLINGZ!!!111"
Gotta love them RPGers. :)
I agree with symmetrical map comment. ANY differences on a team map results in an advantage for one team or the other. The red team on Lava giant has the advantage (it's easier to get to teh blue flag by jumping the wall.)
See, right there, you prove my point Al & razorace, at least on the asymetrical stuff. Al said that lavagiant seemed to favor the blue team, in terms of defense and sniper positions. The blue team had limited protection with its small turrets, so that snipers could provide better cover for the main approaches. But, by the same token, they also had an easier flag to get to. Jump the wall, run across a bridge, and you're there. The red team, on the other hand, had a base that had more open sniper positions (therefore more prone to being killed by offense) but had a less direct approach to their flag. You'd have to go to the back of the base in order to get to it, if memory serves. So right there, you can see how one side has advantages and disadvantages, as does the other side. The balancing comes into play by making sure that neither side has an advantage or disadvantage that outweighs the other side.
I don't mind symettrical maps mostly, I just find that they can get old. If they're done right, though, they're fantastic fun. Even the old 2fort variations for CTF in Quake and such were a blast to play, and they were usually symmetrical.
As far as the design theme, I think that with the weapons in the original trilogy, you can see a pretty standard theme. Guns were based mostly off of WWII era weapons (likely because it was easy and cheap to obtain these as surplus, then chop 'em up and stick geegaws on 'em). In the new films, Ep. I seemed to be going for a more sleek, shiny, artsy look (which was actually a conscious decision, apparently) in order to differentiate with the more gritty look of the original trilogy. In terms of Ep. II, the usual footsoldier equipment of the Clone troopers was much more in keeping with the style of the original trilogy. The clonetrooper rifle is a great example of how you can have interesting looking new blaster weapons. And that was entirely CG and only VERY loosely based on the E-11 design, it seemed. (or rather, it'll evolve into the E-11)
Al, I think where you and I differ fundamentally is in what we want out of the game. I defintely want an experience that is as close to the films as possible, without sacrificing fun in the process. You seem content with a suggestion of the films, but nothing close to a real adherence to their content. I don't mind EU stuff. Don't get me wrong. I find it to be a nice change of pace. Like I've said, I wouldn't have minded keeping weapons that function similarly to the ones we have in this game, it's just the look and feel of them that I felt didn't jive with what I'd seen in the films and imagined from the books I'd read. Honestly, from playing Elite Force, a lot of the weapons in JO seemed pretty close to what you saw in EF. Makes me wonder just how much innovation Raven really did.
You're right, though, that if the game didn't have the Star Wars trademark on it, people wouldn't care, but that's what a trademark is all about: it's to indicate to the consumer what they can expect from the product. You seem to distinguish the DF trademark from the Star Wars trademark, and are happy with what you found JO to be. In terms of keeping with the DF theme, I'd say JO was pretty damn faithful. But to me, the DF games themselves never really captured the feel of Star Wars that I was looking for. I suppose the first DF game (from what I can remember) did this, but even that game had its flaws.
As far as the concussion rifle discussion goes (hey, that almost rhymes...), I think that kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm fine with conkys being the most effective weapon all around. I'm fine with them being unblockable, or at least difficult to block (similar to the flechette at midrange). But I think the reason that I liked the conky more than the flechette was that it just felt more Star Wars. The look, the firing effect, etc., all seemed to suggest the films to me more than the flechette did. In that sense the conky was better designed, albeit probably a bit unbalanced, from what you described (like I said, it's been a good couple of years since I played JK1). If I were to create a disadvantage for that weapon, it would be the same one that the secondary fire of the flechette has: it can be pushed back towards you, if the opponent is fast enough and has force powers. It can't be blocked, it has an area effect for damage, and it's EXTREMELY powerful, but it still has that one small achilles heel that you can try to take advantage of. If the guy with the conky is smart, he'll find ways to compensate for that disadvantage, but it's still there. To me, that's balance. It doesn't screw up the game, either. That'd be what I'd look for in a more starwarsy kind of game: something that hews closer to the films in terms of the overall feel, something that's reasonably balanced (but not nerfed to the point of being useless), and something that's still fun.
So right there, you can see how one side has advantages and disadvantages, as does the other side. The balancing comes into play by making sure that neither side has an advantage or disadvantage that outweighs the other side. I see where you're coming from, but the ability to stop the opposing team GETTING to one's base with impunity is more valuable. Take two teams of equal skill, put them on an asymmetrical map, and one team will win due to terrain differences. No set of advantages or disadvantages on an asymmetric arena are equal.
As far as the design theme, I think that with the weapons in the original trilogy, you can see a pretty standard theme. Guns were based mostly off of WWII era weapons (likely because it was easy and cheap to obtain these as surplus, then chop 'em up and stick geegaws on 'em). In the new films, Ep. I seemed to be going for a more sleek, shiny, artsy look (which was actually a conscious decision, apparently) in order to differentiate with the more gritty look of the original trilogy. Well there you go. For Lucas at least, the design theme is apparently more related to budgetary concerns than any artistic continuity. ;)
Al, I think where you and I differ fundamentally is in what we want out of the game. I defintely want an experience that is as close to the films as possible, without sacrificing fun in the process. You seem content with a suggestion of the films, but nothing close to a real adherence to their content.Exactly. As I've said before, Dark Forces is an experience in its own right, a hybrid of SW and EU and FPS. It's wonderful. If you made the game purely like the movies, you'd be ruining that dynamic. Another game is the place to do things like that.
Like I've said, I wouldn't have minded keeping weapons that function similarly to the ones we have in this game, it's just the look and feel of them that I felt didn't jive with what I'd seen in the films and imagined from the books I'd read.I do understand what you mean, and I would imagine I'd be equally miffed if say... the LotR movies hadn't lived up to my expectations.(In fact, I'm sure Peter Jackson had a spy in my brain, they were so close to my imagination :D ) But I'm not sure you can blame Raven for not making the EU guns the same as you imagined them...
In terms of keeping with the DF theme, I'd say JO was pretty damn faithful. But to me, the DF games themselves never really captured the feel of Star Wars that I was looking for. I suppose the first DF game (from what I can remember) did this, but even that game had its flaws. Well there we have it, in a nutshell. Now, if a game was made to your specifications that was as close to the movies as you'd like, I'd play it, for one. But not if it replaced the classic flavour of Dark Forces, by being the next in the series. Dark Forces is a specific type of game. It has a tradition to maintain. Perhaps a PC-based sequel to Obi-Wan would be a better target to change into the game you want, as it seems to have the same ideas, and a shorter pedigree.
As far as the concussion rifle discussion goes (hey, that almost rhymes...), I think that kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm fine with conkys being the most effective weapon all around. I'm fine with them being unblockable, or at least difficult to block (similar to the flechette at midrange). But I think the reason that I liked the conky more than the flechette was that it just felt more Star Wars.Ah. Okay. I don't understand the reasoning behind this at all. hehehe :eek:
Once again, it seems to be a fundamental difference: The first thing I look for is gameplay. I know gameplay's important to you too, but it seems to be in the queue behind your idea of what feels Star Warsy, which I don't agree with really...
That's fine though, each to his own. But as I say, DF is its own game, and like Quake, it has its own style. To change it to what you've described would be the same as never having a DF sequel. It wouldn't really be DF, you see.
Well, maybe you're right about the DF games, then. The should keep releases in relative continuity to the previous games, definitely. Maybe an Obi-Wan sequel or an entirely new series of FPS shooters IN ADDITION to DF games are what is needed. Personally, I feel that the exploration of Kyle as a character is getting somewhat stale (at least for SP). Maybe that's because they had him going gray at the temples in this game. :) Then again, hell, so am I, and I'm only 25. :D
For MP purposes, I guess what I've been trying to suggest, is that by adding game modes (IE: the CBOM stuff I advocated earlier in the thread) should not necessarily replace the standard DM/CTF/etc. game modes, but rather should add on to it. I definitely see where you're coming from in terms of how you see DF. It seems that you really view it as a separate thing from Star Wars. It's its own license for you, and so, if the games all approximate EACH OTHER, then you're satisfied (assuming they're fun to play, of course). I get that. For me, I'm looking first at the Star Wars logo, and second at the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight logo, in terms of my expectations. That's not to say that I'm willing to sacrifice gameplay, it's just that what I expect out of a game set in the Star Wars realm is that it be first and foremost, true to the original materials, and secondarily be true to the previous games. But that's just how I prioritize things.
It seems that Raven is (assuming they get the gameplay/fun factor right and minimize the bugs on first release or first patch) pretty good at making DM style games. I don't enjoy DM, but it seems that a lot of the people who do find JO to be quite fun as simply a DM game with some Star Wars content.
Maybe what would be a smarter move for LucasArts (from a marketing standpoint) would be to release TWO games next time around, and thereby cater to different factions in the community. They could release DF4, have it focus on Kyle (or Kyle's kid or whatever), and have the MP gameplay be basically similar to what you have in this game (just PLEASE give us more CTF maps, and preferably slightly better ones -- don't give us LESS DM maps to compensate somehow, just give MORE CTF maps). At the same time, maybe they should produce an entirely separate title like "Star Wars: Team Battles" that focuses gameplay in a similar fashion to games like TFC, RTCW, and BF1942. No real single player content, aside from playing against (hopefully well-programmed) bots, much like what the original UT shipped with. You could play Clones & Jedi vs. Confederation & Sith, or Rebels vs. Imperials, or offer both sets of conflicts on different maps (IE: a Geonosis map, a Hoth map, a Death Star map, etc., etc.). Since the DF games (aside from the first one) all take place after ROTJ, you'd have plenty of source material to work with, and could keep weapons more akin to the blasters seen in the films. If some anal fanboy wanted to critique this based on the timeline, you could say, "Well, Kyle was always performing commando operations against highly technologically advanced and well equipped Imperials and neutrals. That's why the repeater, etc. were in the games. The later games simply represent the progression of technology after the close of the Civil War." :)
Thus, you don't have to replace DF with new content, you can stay true to the DF trademark, AND you can give the fans who want a more film-like, less EU-like experience what they're looking for. AND you'd probably sell twice as many games, because idiot fans like myself will probably just end up buying both. :) In that sense, I think you'd be giving everyone what they want and expect. And it's exactly Lucas' style: why put out one authoritative collection that's full of content to please EVERYONE when you can keep releasing individual new versions of things over and over, add maybe a smidgen of new material, and get the fans to keep shelling out the cash for it? (>sigh< I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.)
Oh, and as far as Jackson's ability to capture the look and feel of the LOTR books, it really IS uncanny (although he did have plenty of artwork to base things on). Overall, I thought his films have been fantastic (especially the extended uber-geeky-tolkien-fan version :D -- can't wait for the next films to come out in extended directors cut versions on DVD). My only gripe so far has been that one thing with Faramir. I get why he did it, I just always thought of Faramir as above that sort of thing (based on the books/BBC radio drama -- which, if you haven't heard is FANTASTIC). But that's a little OT, admittedly. :)
Yeah, I think two games would be the best way to go. Also, the more SW games the better, naturally.
sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs.So do I, but I wouldn't count on it. I heard somewhere a while ago that Lucas was quoted as saying:
"The SEs are the movies now. What is this Or-ig-in-al you speak of? I know not this word. Now go, lest I set my ninja on you."
Well, in so many words.
Bah. Han was much more interesting when he was ambiguous.
My only gripe so far has been that one thing with Faramir. I get why he did it, I just always thought of Faramir as above that sort of thing (based on the books/BBC radio drama -- which, if you haven't heard is FANTASTIC). But that's a little OT, admittedly.
Oh yes, the BBC drama was good. And apparently there's quite a bit of Faramir dialogue floating around Jackson's cutting room, I hope it'll all end up in the extended DVD to fill out the character a bit more. More mention of why he knew Boromir was deceased, etc. Fingers crossed.
well, solo basically said everything I was going to say about the guns and everything else. Later I'll make a better post but right now my jaw is killing me.
As for seperate games, I still say lucasarts should develop a online only game, and then have any other sp games be seperate. They get twice the money, and we get 2 choices and 2 teams dedicated to working on one apsect each.
AS for kyle, I never cared about him, or his dark forces title. He reminds me of a cheap lorenzo lameass character. Some kind of cheeseball lethal weapon mel gibson cheap ripoff, some kind of nbc 80's detective sissy check out my 5 oclock baby because its time to rumble on the wb. I only was interested in dark forces and jedi knight because they had "star wars" in the title.
Drugs kicking in...sleep...oh yeah....
Originally posted by Jolts
I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.Alas, I believe Lucas has commented that there are only going to be the SE editions on the DVDs. There is the story on it at TheForce.net somewhere. I think there is a petition about it somewhere too.
Originally posted by Jolts
AS for kyle, I never cared about him, or his dark forces title. He reminds me of a cheap lorenzo lameass character. Some kind of cheeseball lethal weapon mel gibson cheap ripoff, some kind of nbc 80's detective sissy check out my 5 oclock baby because its time to rumble on the wb. I only was interested in dark forces and jedi knight because they had "star wars" in the title.Blastphemy! Thou shalt rot in Hell for these faithless words against our Kyle! :D
I suspect the DVD versions will be different from even the SE editions. Star Wars v3.0. :)
whoa
quote:
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Originally posted by Jolts
I sure hope that the DVD collection of the original trilogy, or all six movies, will include the original versions of the films as well as the SEs. I plan on making my own SE version of ANH and replacing the GODAWFUL Greedo scene with its original.
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I never said that, where is it pulling that quote from?
Yeah Jolts, Kyle owns you. Kyle's beard owns you. Kyle's shoulder pad owns you.
So there.
Blah Lucas.
only thing kyles owns is a George Michaels lookalike contest. Brothers perhaps?
http://www.jeffdolen.com/Look%20Alikes/Cameron%201.jpg)
yeah hard looks and 5 o'clock shadows are real cool.
I wonder if the original cuts of SW still exist, even. It'd be just like Lucas to burn them in the eternal flame he keeps lit on his altar to cash money in his basement or something.
So much was superior about the original cuts. Was it me, or was the Rancor a better special effect in the original cut? Darker, less backdropping?
Jolts: Kyle's is a full, MANLY beard, like mountain men from... the mountains... grow. Deliverance notwithstanding. Kyle's beard could win a fight against your father.
If Kyle's beard can win a fight against your father, it can win a fight against you and therefore is >= you. If Kyle's BEARD >= you, Kyle's whole being is > you. Ergo, Kyle pwns you, or any member of your immediate family.
Okay,.. oh my lord, I've gone insane. Hlep me. Hlep me plaees.
:(
here, let me remove that staple.
here, let me remove that staple.Drop the staple remover and back away slowly, cully. Nobody points any object at me that's sharper than an earthworm.
Hmm, Devastation demo should be out now, bbl... :)
He can go right ahead and destroy 'em. You KNOW there are people out there with copies in good condition, and I've got a DVD version of the original trilogy non-SE'd from Hong Kong. Visual quality isn't quite as good as something official, but if I can splice the greedo scene out of existence, I'll do it. Honestly, I liked the SE's new stuff, though Jabba in ANH just looked WRONG, as do many organic creatures when you CG 'em. I'm sorry, but I actually prefer Ray Harryhousen (sp?) stop-motion photography and maquettes to CGI a lot of the time. For some reason, they actually look more real to me. Probably because they're real physical objects.
Anyway, I'd keep a fair amount of the SE's new stuff, and would simply edit the Greedo scene out. Most of the rest of it was ok, from what I can remember. I wouldn't put it past him to release a v3.0, though. At the very least, Jabba needs some fixin' BIGTIME. I don't get why he'd destroy the originals, though. To me, at the very least, they'd be worth having for history's sake. To see how far the technology had come.
The game hasn't died, just some people decided to quit playing and start whining.
Honest. Despite my great love for our site and forums, we represent a tiny fraction of the total JK2 community, and we should never assume that what we do is the norm.
Really.
Just think of all the people who play the game on different timezones than you, or that play on "The Zone" or who play on other unlisted servers, or who play different versions of the game (1.04 won't show you 1.03 or 1.02 servers for example).
People were already announcing the "death" of this game a month after its release. I say LET THEM GO.
If they want to leave, fine... don't let the door hit you on the way out!
JK2 is the most advanced Star Wars game out, period. Galaxies may be more complex with its RPG manner (when it comes out), but you won't find me playing it, since you have to pay every month, and you can't just sit down for some fast action straight up with lightsabers and force. So in that sense, JK2 will always have a place... and the mod community is just getting warmed up.
I'm not mad, I'm just sick of hearing how because so and so quit the game, we all have to quit and stop having fun, just because he's bored and endless whining about how the patch ruined everything etc etc.
So enjoy yourself and don't let these guys spoil your fun. Go make a mod or something useful...
/end rant
Exactly. As I've said before, Dark Forces is an experience in its own right, a hybrid of SW and EU and FPS. It's wonderful. If you made the game purely like the movies, you'd be ruining that dynamic. Another game is the place to do things like that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 is the most advanced Star Wars game out, period. Galaxies may be more complex with its RPG manner (when it comes out), but you won't find me playing it, since you have to pay every month, and you can't just sit down for some fast action straight up with lightsabers and force. So in that sense, JK2 will always have a place... and the mod community is just getting warmed up.If I had a penny for every time a read someone saying, "when Galaxies comes out JO will be dead"...
I've seen some expectations that are really way off when it comes to Galaxies and KOTOR. For some reason, many people seem to believe that those games are going to be FPS-style saber combat and replace JO. KOTOR is going to be a point and click deal, and in Galaxies it will be a very difficult to become a Jedi in the first place. As far as Galaxies goes, people are expecting the world. I've said it before, but any game that relies on teenage l33t d00ds for SW immersion is a disaster waiting to happen. That's why JO is so great. I have SP for SW immersion and MP for hack and slashing fun. I hope Galaxies and KOTOR (can't wait for this one) are big successes though, because maybe then all those RPGers around here will go play those instead mucking around on JO servers...
Personally, I think JO fills its role in the SW gaming universe well.
When Doom3 comes out, SimsOnline will be dead.
You know, now that I think about it, the community is a mixed bag, and that's a mixed blessing.
At first I thought that the RPGers were the ones unhappy with the game and that they were the ones that were all leaving (and I said good riddance) and I hoped that Galaxies and KOTOR would draw them away.
Now I'm seeing that some people play the game ONLY because they use it to role play.
Then I thought maybe it was the hardcore "competative" gamers that were leaving, because the game was biased towards RPG players. Then I realized that some people play the game despite the complaints and frustration of RPG players.
So now my view is that many people like the game for many different reasons, and some people have stopped playing the game and moved on for many different reasons, and there's no real accounting for taste.
The good news is, if you still play the game, there's people to play with and people making mods to enjoy, so you can still have fun!
Originally posted by Prime
I've seen some expectations that are really way off when it comes to Galaxies and KOTOR. For some reason, many people seem to believe that those games are going to be FPS-style saber combat and replace JO. KOTOR is going to be a point and click deal, and in Galaxies it will be a very difficult to become a Jedi in the first place. As far as Galaxies goes, people are expecting the world. I've said it before, but any game that relies on teenage l33t d00ds for SW immersion is a disaster waiting to happen. That's why JO is so great. I have SP for SW immersion and MP for hack and slashing fun. I hope Galaxies and KOTOR (can't wait for this one) are big successes though, because maybe then all those RPGers around here will go play those instead mucking around on JO servers...
Exactly, a LOT of people are going to come back to JO once they realize how specialize KOTOR and SWG are.
Originally posted by Rumor
can i make complete sentences that are longer than three words?
Can you find your shift key? Obviously... :rolleyes:
Hello again, friends. :)
Originally posted by Break_dF
Hello again, friends. :)
BAD SCARY MAN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rifle1: :snipe1: :toilet1: :tank1: :afro1: wok1 :lazerhead
Originally posted by Break_dF
Hello again, friends. :) Well look who it is! Shall we assume that the trolling shall commense immediately? :p