1. To all Demo players: Should there be a certain limit in detail? Or should we try to make the levels as detailed as JO levels (or even more) ?

There could be improvements in detail in the following places of secbase (without performance drop):

- The room where you find the imperial with key.
- the basement (the Deathstar plan room)
- Secret Emporer building

Everything else can only get a slight and careful improvement of detail.

2. Plz do me a favour and make a short list of what you think needs to be improved in terms of level design (even if you already posted it in this forum) and post it in this thread. It would save me a lot of time ;)

I canґt fullfill all your wished (Iґm not Santa Claus :P ), but Iґll keep them in mind when I have to make changes in the level.

Just to be vague... I think that the level is good, but i have been spoiled by outstanding level designs, models, and music, so yes, add ton of detail. Also it wouldnt kill you to use the some of the music in JO. Ok other than that you mod looks fantastic and I hope that it gets finished.

****(uses force)Yes, you will change the music....

I liked it all, MilesTeg! You guys did a great job. BUT, since you bring it up...
I think the room where the key is should have a camera monitor. He is, afterall, the night watchman according to the novel... I noticed a camera in the DS plan room. I don't know if that was in the original, but it is sure cool. You should post cameras elsewhere that all work so the player can use the monitor system to find certain areas.
I am someone who always enjoys camera systems in games.
The Emperor's "lounge" was cool, and on my hundreth time throught the demo, I noticed a dead prisoner on the ground. Very cool.
So, just the security room could have a little feature such as that. But if you're talking about changing those stupid textures in the basement, the ones on the counter, FORGET it!

*** Don't change the music...

Areas which could (and should!) be improved:
-Secret area with interrogation droids. Lots of stuff should be added here; pillars, sloped walls, pipes, the lot. It's far too bare.
-Some of the exterior cliffs were too straight. Add outcroppings, little caves and stuff. And once the player's breached the exterior walls (the secret) the cliffs look very bad, particularly if the player walks as far as he can go.
-Panels should be sloped. Not the ones on the wall, but the little ledges connected to the main wall. It's a bit vague, I know; think of the ledges in the basement area.
-Death Star plans room has plenty of room for pillars, pipes, and minor detail like that.
-The room just before the last elevator, just after the Death Star plans are picked up, is in essence just a box. That room can use a lot more detail.
-The landing pad is far too bare. Try adding a big 'L' for landing on the floor, or details along the wall.
-The main hallway you start in is nice, but perhaps a pipe can be added along the ceiling, and continuing in the exterior areas?
-More sloped walls in the interior areas. Anything from pillars to the walls themselves. There's plenty of oppurtunity for that kind of stuff. Perhaps a couple of little ones can be used in the bits connecting corridors? For instance, in the bits connecting the four circular rooms in the secret area.
-Add a broken door between the area which opens the secret panels in the main hallway and the ledge outside. How else did the stormies get there?

Basically, add as much detail as the engine can support. Mainly more pillars, beams and pipes across the ceilings, and some sloped walls. The level already looks nice, but with the added detail JO supports it can look spectacular. The design's up there with modern games as it is, so that's no problem.
-

Well, here are a fww things:

First try to make things perfectly believeable. Levels dont need to be modelled exactly. Like for example look at the Executor level. There were some jumps over those pillars that were there for gameplay but dont make sense for Star Wars these days. What you could do in a case like that is add what appear to be entendable bridges that arent extended. In the Executor hanger, use the extended universe resources to model the Super Star Destroyer hanger a bit more realistically. Instead of having the cargo transport be moved along those series of gates you could increase the opposition and maybe have several ovverides to release magnetic clamps and tractor beams. Be creative and makes things seem to meld perfectly with Star Wars. They didnt have the ability to do all these neat things back in 1996, we do now)

On the subject of detail. Take for example the secret base and the computer consoles all over. Rather than following the origional exactly, out some elevated panels and screens in varioius places. Add in prefabs from current JO multiplayer levels so it seemns like this is one world and it doeasnt seem outdated. Don't chhange the story of Dark Forces, just try to explain all the details better. Really try to make the world more interactive and realistic.

Maybe even add some troopers on patrol or if you can get the voice talent, some troopers having conversations.

Originally posted by IS_Raptor3k


****(uses force)Yes, you will change the music....


the music is half the charm of Dark Forces . . . it isn't going to be changed.

The music is nice, as in Star Wars, but you should really do better than MIDI. Just because it worked well when the game was released doesn't mean it doesn't sound terrible (at times) now.

Originally posted by Katarn07
I liked it all, MilesTeg! You guys did a great job. BUT, since you bring it up...
I think the room where the key is should have a camera monitor. He is, afterall, the night watchman according to the novel... I noticed a camera in the DS plan room. I don't know if that was in the original, but it is sure cool. You should post cameras elsewhere that all work so the player can use the monitor system to find certain areas.
I am someone who always enjoys camera systems in games.
The Emperor's "lounge" was cool, and on my hundreth time throught the demo, I noticed a dead prisoner on the ground. Very cool.
So, just the security room could have a little feature such as that. But if you're talking about changing those stupid textures in the basement, the ones on the counter, FORGET it!

*** Don't change the music...

OK, your question kinda resolves the Easter Egg Hunt :)

There IS a camera monitor in the officer's room - hit all the panels and you will find it. There is also a camera monitor in the first room of the level - up the steps on the right, hit all of those panels and you will find it. There are some nice camera view points in the level.

These are pretty well hidden :) In teh final version there will be proper (noticable) panels for computer monitors. It adds to the interactivity of the level.

Anyway, that's the easter egg for you :p

What can I say apart from - what a fantastic demo! Keep up the good work guys! ;)

With regard to the detail, yeah you probably could afford to to add more detail to break things up a bit so you don't notice the boxiness inherent in the level design quite as much. Just things like sloping floors, more detail in the cliff faces etc. - mostly geometric changes.

Also, the lighting could do with a bit more work. Obviously, lighting is always the hardest thing to get spot on, but you need to get more varied light levels within individual rooms. At the moment it's like you've got huge individual lights in each room creating unifrom brightness thoughout. If you can make the light seem more like it's coming from individual sources with shadowy corners etc. it would look much better and again help the design seem less boxy.

As for the music, I liked the in-game MIDI sequencing, but the Star Wars theme MIDI in the opening simply has to go. You've got great up-to-date graphics for the game and cutscenes, but it sort of lets it down when your big opening has music that sounded lame 8 years ago, let alone today. By all means keep the in-game sequencing - that's good, but for the intro either use the original orchestral track from the Jedi Outcast assets or resample it using a MUCH better waveset - ideally you want to be using soundfonts and a Creative Audigy card to playback and record the music and convert it to MP3. And don't just use the MIDI sequence of the theme from the original game - it was orchestrated to sound passable on adlib cards. If possible, it needs re-sequencing from scratch so that it's more like Herb Spencer's original orchestration.

The menu screen is great, although the scanline effect across the main image didn't seem to look right at any resolution, i.e. the lines were unevenly spaced.

There were two other little niggles I had, but they may well be stupidity on my part. Firstly, shouldn't Kyle have a flashlight, or did I miss it? I couldn't see anything inside that secret cave in the cliff face. Also, with the little red lights outside the base you've got the sound effect for them breaking when you shoot them, but they seem to remain undamaged - I assume you're going to add that effect later?

Anyway, these minor things aside, this looks like it's going to be one of the best mods I've ever seen for any game. I'm very impressed by your work guys - you do the Star Wars gaming community proud.

I tried that once! Just one, and it was in the officer's watch room. I guess I had to try them all first. lol, boy, was I close...

okay first off, great job on the demo. From the moment i saw the loading screen it was mad nostalgia. But about inprovements:

I know that the origional was very blocky but that is all the DF engine could allow. Try making more sloping walls in the caves and such. You kinda started to get the right idea but go with it a little more. Also the cliff walls outside are a little unrealistic, meaning that they are to flat. as for inside, the camera monitors should be apart from the rest of the computers. But overal great job. Just in terms of map design, try not to stay EXACTLY with the original.

The MIDI music during the opening is a big part of the fun of this mod. Before the demo was released I was in the camp of wondering if the movie soundtrack should be tracked in whenever possible and if MIDI should only be used for the original Dark Forces themes, but when the mod loaded, the MIDI Star Wars theme made me smile, so it should definitely stay.

As for the "detail" issue, I'd say that generally one should think of the original Dark Forces as suffering from "low resolution", and that any detail that is added must only be visible at "high resolution". In other words new details shouldn't contradict the original game -- they were there all along, you just couldn't see them!

On the other hand, I'm also in favor of respecting the movies over Dark Forces when it comes to visuals, so if it can be determined that something in DF is trying to look like a specific object or design from the movie, the movie version should prevail. This would argue in favor of movie-level detail on the Corellian Corvette level, for example, which DF did pretty well with the interior but not the exterior. Since the Death Star hologram in the demo looks more influenced by Episode II than Dark Forces, it looks like the team is already thinking this way.

If there is a desire to add new features or rooms, I think the best way to do it would be to take objects, control panels, and doors that were present but non-functional in the original game and do something within them.

Nice job so far! I definately felt like I was playing Dark Forces I again after playing the DFJK2 TC demo (although I missed the rest of the cutscenes/mission briefings).

I wonder if it would be possible to put the "auto map" overlay back into the game, considering JK2 lacks it?

A minor thing, but the fists shouldn't make the "smack" sound except when hitting a wall or enemy. The "swoosh" part of the sound effect should be heard alone when hitting air.

I think that the level of detail (and it's just MHO) should be at least that of the original DF (with improved textures of course) as seen in the demo, but if its raised for dramatic effect in certain areas, I'm all for that too. ; )

PS: Good to see you again Al!

yeah, im all for having everything exactly like the original, except for the graphics. i dont really care about curves and columns and pipes and junk being added to bring it up to date or anything, the whole point is to recreate the original DF. however, its not like im not going to play it just because of a pipe in the ceiling.

Originally posted by Magic_Al`s DF

On the other hand, I'm also in favor of respecting the movies over Dark Forces when it comes to visuals, so if it can be determined that something in DF is trying to look like a specific object or design from the movie, the movie version should prevail. This would argue in favor of movie-level detail on the Corellian Corvette level, for example, which DF did pretty well with the interior but not the exterior. Since the Death Star hologram in the demo looks more influenced by Episode II than Dark Forces, it looks like the team is already thinking this way.


Yes indeed we are using the movies as sort of a definitive guide and the hologram is just one example. We messed with the shaders for a week on that thing . . .

I think the mappers are using the movies as a reference whenever there is a question of architecture or functionality (i.e. should that door be like the blast doors in ANH? "close the blast doors . . . open the blast doors")

thanks for the kind words Magic!!

One other thing I thought of - as you've already got searchlights in place, it would be cool if you could script it so that when Kyle stumbles into the beams they track him until he moves out of reach and an alarm could go off too. You could even have a probe droid or two being released like in the first level of Artus Prime in JO, although that might detract from the surprise of the other searchlight trap on the Coruscant level later in the game.Definately do that tracking thing though.

Well, yes, I forgot about the rocks outside. They are a bit sharp edged. Just round them off and round the cave up a bit too. That is all that needs to be done in my opinion.
A few pipes in the ceiling couldn't hurt, and maybe even some pillars built into the wall (like in the first hallway) would fix up that secret area leading to the Emperor's "lounge".
I really liked the dynamic lighting of the alarm lights outside. I can't wait to see what else can be done to DF with that feature...

You guys might want to change how the Infrared Goggles work. It would be great if you could do it like in DF, with the screen turning green when you put them on.

What would be a good effect would be to use something similar to the green with scanlines you see when you activate the hidden camera interfaces. That'd be perfect.

Of course, being able to do that is probably a long way off....

they are as green as I could make them. the algorithm used by the shader for the goggles is a nightmare to adjust, so what it is now is probably the best it will be.

remember, this is NOT a total conversion replicating every detail. It's a MOD designed to capture the "essence" of the original game.

we aren't going to pull our hair out and go mad trying to pull off every little nuiance of a game whose design and implementation is full of compromises and technology limitations.

I personally like the level the way it is. It brought back a feeling of playing DF for the first time - very nostalgic. As for adding details, there are just a few things I would like to see: more ambient sounds in the level, make the outside areas look much more realistic (jaggy rocks, maybe rocks falling in a few places). The caves (like where the extra life is hidden) should also get more detail added - stuff like little streams and waterfalls. I like the idea of the search light tracking Kyle (like the searchlights in MoH:AA or SoFII) if it spots Kyle, an alarm would sound and tons of guards would attack him. That would be pretty cool. As for the music, leave it the way it is except for the midi Star Wars theme - replace it with the orchestrated version. That's about all I can think of now that needs to be changed.

Originally posted by Master Toddy
- stuff like little streams and waterfalls.


this would flood the secret base!

As for the music, leave it the way it is except for the midi Star Wars theme - replace it with the orchestrated version. That's about all I can think of now that needs to be changed.

this would create incongrous music - a game full of MIDI music and a fully symphonic intro would be like having a rusty hubcap on one wheel and 3 24"s on the rest of the Denali - it would be completely out of place and character . . .

lol great analogy Darth, even though i have no idea what it means :p

Originally posted by Darth_Linux


this would flood the secret base!


I'm not talking about huge waterfalls, I'm talking about like a small stream that could be running into a small, dark opening, like in the cave with the secret life.

How about the ambient sounds of dripping in the cave. You don't need to see it...
If the searchlight hits you, those red lights should go on and then a quiet alarm should sound briefly, but don't add more bad guys to kill you. It is afterall the first level. If anything, take out some of those guys in the full version!
I don't remember, do you continue JO with the same health and ammo count as in the past level? What about DF? If so, you'll have to reduce the bad guy count. If not, leave it.

The only thing I think could use more detail is the room with the key:

Dark Forces original (http://www.modzone.net/darkforces/dark6.jpg)

Mod (http://www.modzone.net/darkforces/darknew6.jpg)

The original has a brighter room with more lights it seems. Other than that, I have no complaints, the level looks great :)

I think the game so far is great. Very good rebuild of the original. It has a lot of potential for being a game worthy of Star Wars fans and Raven alike. My question is: Why are you designing the game only half way? The whole point was to update the original game to today's standards. While I appreciate the nostalgic feeling I get when playing the demo - the sounds of the game are of the original and are almost rediculous sounding when you compare them to the visual graphics of the game. I suggest updating the whole game, visual and audible alike, to be current with todays standards. I am a huge fan of DF, DFII, and JKII, but I think if I wanted to hear the original, I would play the original. The graphics are only half of the experience and without the music and sounds of what is able to use today, I think the game is lacking and is a waste of time trying to incorporate the old sound effects into the MOD. Again, it is a great re-creation, and I was in love with the demo and can't wait for the final release, but please consider this in your continuation of designing the game.

Only one thing was missing:

When you open the security door (you know, with the red border) the lift has gotta lower and there absolutely has to be! HAS TO BE!!! A naval trooper there.

I always enjoyed nailing that SOB to the wall.

Otherwise, GREAT JOB!!!!

Felt like I was back at 10 years old, playing my first First Person Shooter.

I think the demo is great, but I was getting lots of framerate problems when I played it. This is strange, because I never had any framerate problems in any regular JO levels except for yavin_swamp.

The level of detail you should aim for should be above JO SP's. Proper use of caulk (caulk all non-seen surfaces), areaportals, cut down on overlapping brushes, and using Q3Map2's meta and patchmeta will help increase performance.

If I want to play DF with DF graphics, I'll just play DF. But if I want to play DF with high-res, detailed levels, I will play the DF TC for JO. Otherwise I might as well just go with the original.

Originally posted by Darth_Linux

this would create incongrous music - a game full of MIDI music and a fully symphonic intro would be like having a rusty hubcap on one wheel and 3 24"s on the rest of the Denali - it would be completely out of place and character . . .

But that's the problem at the moment IMHO - the Star Wars theme MIDI isn't up to par with the rest of the MIDI in the mod. All the other tracks sound vastly better than the originals, but the SW theme sounds exactly the same as it did back when I originally played Dark Forces seven years ago. I don't know what you used to playback the original MIDI when you converted it to MP3 for the mod, but I think that even if you used soudfonts instead of general MIDI the opening would still sound bad because that old sequencing by Lucasarts really isn't very good - if you analysed it layer by layer it bears only a superficial resemblance to Herb Spencer's original orchestration. The main theme needs resequencing from scratch and then needs to be played back using a Creative card with some good soundfonts instead of old general MIDI.

As far as I can tell, the whole purpose for this MOD is to update Dark Forces to modern standards while still maintaing a certain air of nostalgia. But that nostalgia should come from the fact that fans know they are playing a modern update of an old game, i.e. the nostalgia is inherent in the mod because of what it is based on, and there should be no need to leave certain things unchanged just to provide that retro feel. It thefore feels ludicrous to update the graphics to contemporary standards while the music of the game is left floundering in it's original MIDI form. I'm sure if the technology and the trends had been there Lucasarts would have used orchestral tracks for the music rather than MIDI, so why not use it now while you are updating and improving the rest of the game? However, I understand you have a very good reason for wanting to use the MIDI: you want the music to be the same as that used in Dark Forces, and bar the main theme none of the tracks used in the game were MIDI conversions of existing orchestral material - they were new compositions that are only available in MIDI form. There is however, another way....

MIDI music has moved on a lot since the mid-90's, with Creative labs introducing a technology called soundfonts. These soundfonts are essentially individual MIDI sounds that are much more faithful representations of the way individual orchestral instruments sound than general MIDI ever was. You can compile these individual soudfonts into libraries and use them in exactly the same way you would use a standard general midi waveset, but they sound MUCH better, and with careful arranging of the music you can end up with something that sounds close to a real orchestra. I don't know exactly what you used to playback the in-game tracks, but those actually sound OK as they are. Even in comparison to those though, the opening SW theme sounds outdated and crappy - essentially because it sounds no different than it did all those years ago on my GM card at the time. It needs resequencing and then to be played back using soundfonts to sound good. If you can do the same with the in-game tracks, so much the better.

As far as I can see, following the purpose of your mod MIDI should only be used for the purposes of keeping the music faithful to that in the original game (i.e. no orchestral tracks are available of the orginal music). It should not however be used simply because the old crappy warbly sounds provide a kitsch feeling of nostalgia, because using traditional MIDI simply feels wrong when it is heard alongside modern visuals. The half-hearted recent Lucasarts remakes of X-Wing and Tie-Fighter in a collector series package proved that, and were criticised as a result. MIDI has moved on a great deal since the mid-90's and you should reflect that in your mod as you have already done with the graphics. To use your own car analogy in relation to the mod as a whole, using retro MIDI techniques alongside modern cutting edge visuals makes the MIDI the rusty hubcap on the Denali. You have gone to the effort of redoing the opening title crawl and cutscenes in addition to the game graphics. It's even been mentioned in another thread that the final MOD will have full EAX 3D sound. So why should the music be the only thing to remain unchanged when the technology is there to bring it up to modern standards while retaining the same essential score as used in the original game?

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm having a go - that's not my intention at all. I think that all the work you guys have done so far is simply the best and deserves a great amount of recognition and acclaim from SW gaming fans. I just want the mod to live up to it's full potential.

True, the ingame music was fine; it was just the Star Wars theme at the start which didn't sound up to par.
Some other stuff which would be nice to see improved:
-The elevator after the key door has a strange glitch; the wall opposite the player has flickering black lines halfway up. I don't know what caused this, it could be overlapping brushes.
-The opening cutscene's planet looked a little cartoonish, but not too bad. What you should definitely improve would be The Crow flying past. It flew by fine, but when it was still medium-sized it suddenly disappeared. Looked very strange.
-What Emon said. Did you caulk all non-visible walls? The framerate was very inconsistent on my computer, whereas it ran the original JO just fine.

Originally posted by Emon
Proper use of caulk (caulk all non-seen surfaces), areaportals, cut down on overlapping brushes, and using Q3Map2's meta and patchmeta will help increase performance.

caulk: the complete level (except some of the newest details, is caulked.

areaportals: whereever possible I used them.
I even used hint brushes and they work just fine.

cutting down the overlapping brushes: ok, you got me ;) Itґs not THAT perfect....

using q3map2: no. We wanted to use q3map2 in the demo but as long as it doesnґt support lightstyles for light entities....
Iґm sure if Ydnar adds this feature we will use q3map2 for all levels.

I compiled it with sof2map / "-light -patchshadows -extra". I know thatґs not the best solution but itґs enough for a proper demo.

Itґs the nature of the levels architecture that makes it slower on some machines. The searchlight also sucks up much performance. I will consider one or two "dirty" little tricks (adding doors + areaportals where you canґt see them) that will increase performance.

btw:
try the following with "notarget" cheat:
- the searchlight calls more guards to the front of the base when you got catched... It just doesnґt make a noise yet ;)
- there are two guards outside who already patrol around the base (they just notice the player too fast and give up their patrol)

@all: thx for your feedback. Be sure I read and go on reading all postings and think about ways to include your ideas.

Man, talk about a trip down memory lane, this is so great, I've been wanting to play Dark Forces again for some time now, but for some reason I can't play it in XP or Me, well at least not with sound.
I defintely think you should stick with the midi, Clint Bajakian did such a great job back then. If you want them to sound even more orchestral, you should try running them through samplers like GigaStudio.

I replayed the demo to show to my little neighbor. I for the first time noticed the moving clouds while staring at the Crow. Are those in JO's levels?
Looked really neat!

the moving clouds: I think itґs a premiere. I canґt think of any level in JO (usemade or official) that has such a feature... (well except those clouds below the bespin level - but thatґs not a shader... :D )

i had a big list writen down but it said i had to many smiles AND I LOST IT!!!! :ball: :ball: :ball: :ball: :freakout:

But luckly i remeberd the more important ones!

1) The Imperial Blaster it needs to be fater and shorter to look more DF like :p

2) How can i get the changed skins in muilti player? (is it like the good old /model reborn/boss) if so can i get a list off of you?

3) I could only find 1 secret area(man ive lost my DF touch AHHHH!)

4) If you DO want to wip out the trusty old light saber. All you have to do is put in give all (or give lightsaber) pick it and if it looks odd (in left hand is what happend to me) go though every one of your guns and go back to saber and that did the trick for me.

5) thre would have been 10 but I lost alot in transfer from memory to keyboard ;)

:mob: i tryed it on hard and thats exactly what happend i felt like han solo on the first death star :mob:

In the last secret area (the armory with the revolving door), there should be glass seperating those items.

Hello! Just wanted to praise the team for job VERY well done. For some reason the old Star Wars games were the ones with the best "Stars Wars feel" imo, and you've kept the feel in this mod!
Oh, and I love that Death Star hologram:)

My main ideas come from a purely asthesical point of view for the Emperor's room in the secbase. (perhaps take these into consideration on Coruscant also?)

Water
Marble
Plants
Red drapes/curtains/etc....anything that suggests imperial superority.

Lets face it, the new order while very clinical and stainless steelish is also incredibly decedant, as much as any Hutt crime lords palace, anything that has Palpatine's face on it deserves to be fleshed out with drapes/plants/fountains/marble busts etc.

Jus an idea, god only knows what kinda response itll get but when you think of it from the perspective of Coruscant in X-wing 2, Wedges Gamble, the Imp. palace is like something from pre-1917 russia.

:guard: :emperor: :guard:

Plz don't ad any Details in this Level it is perfect like it is!!!!!!!!!! Just for a moment i was thinking that im playin DF!!!!!!!! This level is so perfect :) Nice Guys REEEEAAALLLLYYYY NICE

Originally posted by Slamraptor
Plz don't ad any Details in this Level it is perfect like it is!!!!!!!!!! Just for a moment i was thinking that im playin DF!!!!!!!! This level is so perfect :) Nice Guys REEEEAAALLLLYYYY NICE

I agree. God forbid that anyone should actually think about what they are doing and use their own creative license.

I hope "They will completely restore, enhance, and add to this game to creat Dark Forces SP!"
ok i used the old Star Wars specal edition comercial but still, you guys need to add detail, lots, bring DF into the 21st centruy!

I just wanted to add my two cents. First of all, you guys have done a great job of recreating the original game. I like everything as it is; you don't want too much detail as it takes away the nostalgic feeling of playing it. Sure, it looks much better than the blocky original but going overboard and making everything look on par with JO would be too much. The music is fine as it is too.

I haven't been able to play the original DF as I no longer have the CD and the demo does not work on Win2K so I guess the full version won't too. I'm looking forward to seeing this mod completed.

arokh, for DF to work on Win 2K, you need an emulator for DOS sound. Check out VDMSound (http://ntvdm.cjb.net).

Ill check that out, thanks

You may want to try this article (http://www.df-21.net/articles/install.html). It explains how to get DF running on newer systems.