So, elitism has taken its hold upon the JK2 community. This is a bad thing. I've noticed plenty of posts about how JK1 zoners are going to create various JK2 "Uber-clans" and dominate the game, and to say I'm a little miffed would be an understatement.
Let me set the record straight.
1) There are no genuine "elites" from Jedi Knight on this board. Unless I've missed a post by Kicker, Patton, Aeron, Porkchop, Jeb, Newmodel or Death, and I've looked pretty extensively. And before you ask, WD_Torment is not a JK1 "elite". He is a whining child. Let me illustrate: If an "uber-clan" WERE made, recruiting, say, the top 100 jedi knight players from every discipline, WD_Torment would not make it into the clan. That is how bad he is (He has never achieved a positive score on me, in BGJ FF 1v1, his level & setting of choice. Thats right. Not one POSITIVE SCORE, EVER).
2)Anyone who thinks that JK1 experience or Q3 prowess will benefit them in any way in JK2, is making a very big, unjustified assumption. Superficial similarities such as game engine are no indicator of similarities in gameplay. Even changing something as simple as the speed of movement in Q3 drastically changes the gameplay; how can you even BEGIN to say that Q3 skill will carry over into a starwars game loosely based on the Q3 engine?
The same applies to JK1 skill. JK1 players are archaic and inversatile. The majority of JK1 skill is not transferable. JK1 "elites" restrict themselves to 2 levels: BGJ and oasis (ji for nf gunners). Much of their so-called "skill" is merely muscle-memory of every cubic inch of the level. Example: DSbr_Narz is/was widely regarded as one of the best FF gunners in the game. He would regularly trounce me, in FF oasis, 20 to -5 or better. He suggested we play a FF guns level from massassi; 4 pillars. I won 10-0.
Now, Narz is a pretty versatile player, as JK'ers go. If FF gunning skill is not even transferable between *levels*, what hope has he got of any advantage whatsoever in FF guns in JK2? The same applies to NF'ers, who suffer from even less diversity than FF'ers. I imagine that even a fractional change in speed of movement would ruin any of their so-called skill, in guns or sabers. If you doubt this, just ask one to play with 1 star on force speed. Watch them squirm.
I could go on to mention the vast differences in level structure, gun characteristics, lag handling, saber dynamics and speed that JK2 will bring, but I needn't. The so called "skill" possessed by JK1/q3 elitists will not carry over to JK2.
What *will* carry over to JK2, however, is versatility, maturity, ability to learn quickly, and ability to work as a team; the ability to discover the various nuances of the JK2 dynamics. The majority of JK1 "l33ts", pushing for their Uber-clans and ownz0r board-flaming, are sadly lacking in these areas, and will ultimately, be left behind in JK2.
Elitists be warned. You're in for a shock.
Ah a voice of reason is heard above the bluff and bluster !
Not being a zoner I really don't care who's the best at JK1. We shall see what happens when the game's out........won't we !
ah jza the voice of reason as always finally got this post to come up so just thought id respond
Umm actually I did get a positive score on you.
We need PHYSICAL EVIDENCE!
OR ELSE IT'S TO THE CHOP WITH YE! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Good lecture, a lot of people are over their heards, I am good at a lot of games, just kinda fun, Torment you are cool and all, but like when you said you got a positive score, maybe you did, it doesn't really matter.
I think it matters. JZA is talking against the very thing he is talking about. So if Torment can discredit one part, then that tears apart the rest of his perceived greatness. If JAZ and his sidekicks Spiffy and DarthMaul would have bothered to actually read the post, they would have found they all end on the same note....that we will all be noobs.
Maybe you disreguarded to read something. I never stated ANYWHERE that I would be good at JK2. I dont understand where you got that....I know we'll all be newbies, but anyways, JZA was talking about JK, Dark Forces 2 incase you didn't READ. Also, why are you just giving US bull****? What about SykoticWretched and Tay-mar? They both also reguarded the post as brilliance. I think you should asess your accusations and watch your little 5 year old mouth, before you say something that can be countered easily and make you look more like a fool than you already do.
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ALSO: We are NOT his "sidekicks" I guess since you agree with Torment that makes you his Sidekick? Yeah, I think so. So lets all play by Vomits rules! ANYONE WHO AGREES WITH ANOTHER IS NOW A SIDEKICK! Well Vomit, seems like we have over a thousand sidekicks now, dont we?
So if Torment can discredit one part, then that tears apart the rest of his perceived greatness.
Firstly, denying an accusation isn't discrediting it. I genuinely don't believe he's ever got a positive score on me, in BGJ FF 1v1. How is his denial "discrediting" this? I can deny his denial... does this mean I'm "discrediting" him? Only relevant evidence would discredit it. Like a screenshot. The fact remains, he's never come close to beating me.
HOWEVER, this was hardly the point. What "perceived greatness" are you referring to? My level of skill is completely irrelevant. My point would be just as valid if I had lost every game I'd ever played, 10 to -20. Hell, the crux of the post was just that- that JK1/q3 skill is *not transferable* to JK2.
As for this:
JZA is talking against the very thing he is talking about
How so? I made the following points:
1)There are, so far, no REAL jk "elites" talking on these boards. The majority of them haven't been seen for months/years in any JK-related forums.
2) JK1/q3 skill will not be transferable to JK2 for a variety of reasons, previously stated.
I don't see how these two separate points can be in contradiction.
If JAZ and his sidekicks Spiffy and DarthMaul would have bothered to actually read the post, they would have found they all end on the same note....that we will all be noobs.
I agree that everyone will be newbies at the start of JK2. This may have been the conclusion reached at the end of the "uber-clan" posts, by people who disagree with the "uber-clan" idea. However, *some* people obviously believe otherwise, or they wouldn't have posted it in the first place. My post was intended to dispel any lingering elitist views about transferable skill that may remain on these boards.
Originally posted by JZA
So, elitism has taken its hold upon the JK2 community. This is a bad thing. I've noticed plenty of posts about how JK1 zoners are going to create various JK2 "Uber-clans" and dominate the game, and to say I'm a little miffed would be an understatement.
2)Anyone who thinks that JK1 experience or Q3 prowess will benefit them in any way in JK2, is making a very big, unjustified assumption. Superficial similarities such as game engine are no indicator of similarities in gameplay. Even changing something as simple as the speed of movement in Q3 drastically changes the gameplay; how can you even BEGIN to say that Q3 skill will carry over into a starwars game loosely based on the Q3 engine?
I could go on to mention the vast differences in level structure, gun characteristics, lag handling, saber dynamics and speed that JK2 will bring, but I needn't. The so called "skill" possessed by JK1/q3 elitists will not carry over to JK2.
Elitists be warned. You're in for a shock.
LMFAO!
How long have you been playing FPS'S?
I'm not claiming to be an Elitest when I first buy the dam game foo!
Explain to me how I myself can go out and purchase, RTCW and MOHAA after that. Installed, finished both SP sides at the hardest levels, and move right in to the MP like I was playing it b4?
Wouldnt happen to be because of all my Elite Force or Q3A experience would it? nah. Basic FPS skills have nothing to do with the mechanics of any game. You either got it or you dont, simple as that!
Originally posted by JK_DarthMaul
Maybe you disreguarded to read something. I never stated ANYWHERE that I would be good at JK2. I dont understand where you got that....I know we'll all be newbies
Roger that.
I just thought it should get a thumbs up, and if it should get one, it should be from the coolest dude ever, thuus the pic. That doesn't make me his ****ing sidekick, I don't even know that guy in the least. I didn't even remember his name until i saw all these replies.
JZA, my bad. I thought you were re-visiting an issue that has been put to rest by Deathbolt...many times over in this forum. We all agree we will be noobs. I just didn't see the need for you mention your superior record against Torment, no need to tear into him. I don't agree with some of his post, but we can still have fun and posture without taking it personal.
Now regarding Sidekick Maul and Spiffy. Did I strike a nerve showing who you guys really are? I'm really impressed Sidekick Maul that you are able to construct a complete sentence and not just respond "spiff is god" and your usual 16 year old rants.
Not too hard to figure out. You came into these boards as trolls, and have the honor of the most deleted post in a 2 day span. JZA makes his first post, 2 days within your first post and you guys don't tear into him? Has sidekick written all over it.
If you want to look arouund these boards, you will see a whole damn lot of posts by people and we didnt tear into them.
Kudos on that logic, vomit. Kudos.
I would like to see a link to such a thread. I would provide some links, but most of them have been deleted.
You want to know the reason we didn't tear into JZA? A few reasons.
1. We weren't stoned at that time, we were earlier, JZA's post came later.
2. His post totally dominated every else's I mean look at the logic and insight in it, you cant deny that it beats the other posts jibberish about Phantom Knights Elite Teaser Banner or something! We only flamed the things we found completely lackluster of intelligence.
OLMofo, you're completely mistaken. How can FPS skill NOT be derived from the mechanics of a game?
By "skill" I was referring to ability to win multiplayer games. Your reference to single player games is a moot point - winning a single player FPS uses virtually none of the skills required in multiplayer.
If it were otherwise, out-of-the-box newbies would be as good as the multiplayer champions.
If you think any moderate level of multiplayer skill is transferable, try using your q3 skills to beat any decent JK'er in JK FF(this is NOT a comment about "jk players being better than q3 players". I'm using it to illustrate the non-transferability of game-specific skill). That jump is going to be comparable to the jump from q3 to JK2.
The game dynamics have EVERYTHING to do with it - afterall, "skill" within a certain game is defined as the ability to manipulate the game parameters to your advantage. I cannot seriously believe that you don't understand this.
In lesser terms, the running speed is always a variable, the shooting speed, recoil (yes or no), jumping height, the speed at which your gun comes up when you change weapons, reloading, to name a few off the top.
Plus, there's always the whole tactics issue. Where would a person go, how you think they would attack, how to deal, etc...
Example - They just made a single player version of Counter-strike, and a very large portion of being good at that game is TACTICS. One of my friends got the single player, he kicks ass at that game, but sucks ass at multiplayer CS.
That's right. A surprisingly small change in the variables can result in a very large gameplay difference - it's called sensitive dependence on initial conditions, and is the basis for mathematical modelling of chaos theory and dynamic systems - of which multiplayer gaming is a (very complex) example :)
Spiff, I hope that's your attempt at humor.....show me ONE link that you have replied to that you provided some constructive comments or would lead me to believe you didn't tear into the thread's author.
In even lesser terms - When you try to jump over something, and just barely make it over by an inch, then do it again and jump an inch lower and fall forward and break your face.
Umm, the first one does...
Originally posted by [SICK]Vomit
Spiff, I hope that's your attempt at humor.....show me ONE link that you have replied to that you provided some constructive comments or would lead me to believe you didn't tear into the thread's author.
Look at the skandinavian one again. And no, we didnt do this purely for this post.
http://www.fazed.net/humor/images/diltard.jpg)
Don't know to laugh at the attempt or laugh at you. Just show me a post previous to our little discussion. But the point is you can't.
The post was previous to you saying that you wanted us to give positive comments. And you know what? **** you. You think you're so much better than us ("I don't know whether to laugh...") why? What, are you the only one here who is allowed to flame? Are you better because you've been posting longer? Basically you find it fun to point out the errors and shortcomings of others on the internet of all places. You must be quite the ladies man.
Spiffy, I dont know whether to laugh, or roll on the floor laughing.:p
Originally posted by JZA
OLMofo, you're completely mistaken. How can FPS skill NOT be derived from the mechanics of a game?
By "skill" I was referring to ability to win multiplayer games. Your reference to single player games is a moot point - winning a single player FPS uses virtually none of the skills required in multiplayer.
If it were otherwise, out-of-the-box newbies would be as good as the multiplayer champions.
If you remotely think this to be a true statement my friend, then I truly believe you must not play many other games besides JK.
Any person who doesn't play the SP of any new game before venturing to the MP side, is ridiculously foolish. All your basic skills for that game start at the single player side, those who don't are the ones standing around getting their team-mates killed. They take twice as long to aquire the skills necessary for that game to become an Elite player. Winning MP games still uses the basic principles involved in playing the SP side of that game.
JZA, I'm an EF/Q3A veteran from major clans in those respective games. Those skills have allowed me the smooth transition to play other games and become "Elite" in other games SP or MP.
Such as UT, or Max Payne, MOHAA, and RTCW. Maybe the fact of the matter is some people dont make that transition like some of us do. ( nothing personal :) )
Confusing the board posters here with your profound knowledge of the English vocabulary, does not shadow the fact that what your stating is utterly and completely false.
If you wish to further argue this moot point, I shall not, as I will wait till the game arrives to prove the point.
Kudos OLMofo
That may be true if you only play quake 3, because the bastards at id were too unoriginal to think of a good single player story other than the "tournament." Now look past quake 3 to some GOOD fps games.
Originally posted by SpiffyTheDog
That may be true if you only play quake 3, because the bastards at id were too unoriginal to think of a good single player story other than the "tournament." Now look past quake 3 to some GOOD fps games.
Then I take you've never played RTCW or MOHAA single or multi??
I can go on and on cause I've played many a FPS or 3rd for that matter. They're all good to me.
uhh...in those games the single player is far different than the multi....and yes, i have them both
Originally posted by [TE]HoffenKill
Any person who doesn't play the SP of any new game before venturing to the MP side, is ridiculously foolish. All your basic skills for that game start at the single player side, those who don't are the ones standing around getting their team-mates killed. They take twice as long to aquire the skills necessary for that game to become an Elite player. Winning MP games still uses the basic principles involved in playing the SP side of that game.
err.. I have never played JK SP, but that didn't prevent me from gaining enough skill, in a relative short amount of time after I started MP playing it, to win my first MP tournaments.....
All I did in JK SP was "use the cheatword to skip levels (jediwannabe, eriamjh, red5? lol :p)", but that was only to see the story. :) I never tried to play the SP for over 5 minutes, cuz the MP was much more fun.
Sooo I'm just saying that I agree with spiffy & jza: u don't have to play the SP to get the basic skills for MP in a fast way. It's just that some people have some sorta "feeling" of how to play a MP game, and some don't. SP might have some influence on that, but not as big as u say it has.
sorry for my bad english. im from holland.. it's not my 1st language..
I'm not flaming, I'm just pointing out that facts. The fact is you cannot provide a link to a post where you didn't flamed someone before this link and before you had your knuckles rapped by the Mods. You provided a lame link to a post your sidekick posted to cover yourself. Good distraction tactic, but the fact remains you lied and were caught.
So why don't you just dropped the Anti SW facade, go into your closed and get the Light Saber you received at Xmas. Go ahead, now turn it on....Now, don't you feel better?
Originally posted by [SICK]Vomit
Don't know to laugh at the attempt or laugh at you. Just show me a post previous to our little discussion. But the point is you can't.
You're right, those were facts you were pointing out. And wait, now he's my sidekick, or am i who's sidekick? You seem to like the word "sidekick." Jesus, this is like when they get arrested in the movie Mallrats, but anyway, when did I say i don't like star wars? I'm not like a fanatic or anything but i never said i don't like it, otherwise i wouldn't be posting on jediknightii.net. Think about it. And for the record, the post was made BEFORE YOU ASKED FOR US TO FIND ONE. Want to compare the times? You do that.
Originally posted by SpiffyTheDog
uhh...in those games the single player is far different than the multi....and yes, i have them both
Lemme say this in plain english 1 last time:
Did you or did you not use those skills that you played in the SP of both those games, in the MP game(s), regardless of difference between the two types of games?
I tried the multiplayer before the SP in both games, and i used my MP skills to kick ass in SP because th AI kind of sucks.
O god nevermind.. I see you lot arghh nevermind
If you want to look arouund these boards, you will see a whole damn lot of posts by people and we didnt tear into them. You made that quote today at 6:09 pm server time.
Your sidekick Maul then posted the lame nice post at 7:00 pm server time. Gesh, at least challenge me here, will ya?
hmmm, maybe that's an answer to this. That would actually answer the main point to JZA's thread, and allow us to settle our discussion proper like. That is, SICK challenges the Sidekick Brothers to JK2 CTF.
It would be better if you can stack your team with JK veterans, so that we can see which side adapts faster to this game.
Whatcha say?
Well that's reasonable. I could argue that we didnt get the point of your earlier post and that we had to have participated in that but you wouldn't believe me. It's spiffy to finish this on at least semi friendly terms with you. You're on. And for the last time we're not sidekicks to anyone, dammit.
LOL, ok I'll drop the sidekick issue.
Look, you can have fun and maybe sometimes contribute without crossing that line. You have to understand the irony here. Vomit, a SICK member that has nearly been banned in ever forum is giving advice on forum etiquette. Gad, I hope SICK doesn't kick me.
But anyway, I look forward to our match.
Originally posted by [TE]HoffenKill
O god nevermind.. I see you lot arghh nevermind
Dude do yourself a favor and dont bother stressing the point.
They just dont get it! I'll be happy to assist Vomit so lemme know woohoo!
Who adapts faster to the game is not based on previous skill. It *may well be* that the best players in q3 are the fastest learners, and will also be the faster learners in jk2. This doesn't prove that skill is transferable; it only *reinforces* my point that the qualities other than skill which are transferable are those qualities which facilitate the quickest development of skill.
If you really want to prove your point, use your q3 skills to beat a partner and I in JK, BGJ FF.
JZA, I get your point now. Even though you stated that JK1/Q3 skills will not be transferable, I had it in my head you still think JK1's will hold the advantage. My bad.
Not that I mind getting slaughtered by you in Jk1, but I don't have the game. I think Jk2 is a still a good neutral game to look forward to and hope we can arrange a friendly scrimmage. I think it would be a cool match setup...plus I bet we could learn from each other.
Originally posted by JZA
If you really want to prove your point, use your q3 skills to beat a partner and I in JK, BGJ FF.
That makes no sense to someone who doesn't even own either of those games lmao. Prove YOUR point: You and a partner beat my 2v1 in a game of neither of us own yet lol?
Originally posted by [SICK]OLMofo
That makes no sense to someone who doesn't even own either of those games lmao. Prove YOUR point: You and a partner beat my 2v1 in a game of neither of us own yet lol?
He's talking about how Jedi Knight, the FIRST GAME, is different from quake 3. If a person who had only played JK (JK means the FIRST ONE) played quake 3 against the just-q3 pllayers he'd get his ass kicked, and if a just-q3 player played some just-JK players in JK he'd get his ass kicked. Thus the challenge to play him.
well he has been contradictin him self over and over
he goes on about , l33ts and they are in for a shock
yet he goes on about how good he is , and how he gets scores against peeps of - numbers
well if that aint l33t talk then i dont know what is
peeps that truly are l33t are the ones , that even when they beat u , the commend how good u did , that u where a hard battle , and make u feel alittle bit decent....
and dont brag after about it and make peeps look bad
JZA has made it clear too me that he dont like me , and over the years on WP games , he was an l33tist and still is
when he gets beat he leave's i know
i beat him ONCE and i mean that , weather he says i did or didnt i dont care , in NF BJG , in a tourney years ago , it was like 3-2 i got him by damn fluke , he started blamin lag and stuff like that , then left
so please
u post about the l33tist better watch out , i think u need to look in a mirror , and i know alot of peeps say the same m8
i have tried too cause problems with the new JK2 stuff for WP , cause u dont like me , and cause u aint got what u want
i was the one with others that got the fourm , the irc channel and have started messagin peeps on icq/irc/msn
u aint done anything , so please , dont make me out too be bad , when i am doin lots of things for the good
i wont be lookin at this thread again , cause i just thought it funny the way u go on!
True l33ts arnt the ones that beat eveyone , but the ones that are friendly , have fun games , and get one with peeps
there the ones that are l33t , so i welcome all newbies and i hope you come too wireplay u will be made welcome!