When was the last time you ever saw a man who wasn't a professional chef do a decent job cooking, Inyri? And, for that matter, when was the last time you ever saw a man who wasn't totally insane do a good job cleaning?

I don't know if you're just incompetent in those things and trying to make it look like everyone is like you or you're being funny, but I do a darn good job cooking, an OK job cleaning, but cooking, yes, I love cooking. And I haven't killed anyone and people love my food so I must be good at it.

My mom and dad takes turns at cooking, they each cook different things best, but my dad is usually the cook, and therefore...God.

Corinth- My Dad happens to be a very good cook, compared to my mom. <<

I knew that alot of the media views gaming as a 'boys thing', but at my school every girl I know at least has one console...actually, I think at my school gaming is more of a girls thing than boys. Lots of the boys have moved on to sports...of course, I could never find such love in sports. I just love my Kingdom Hearts to much. /love Kingdom Hearts

Where I live, soap watching and binge drinking are the normal hobies for both genders and gaming/"exersising" being "boy" things, and exersising/older boyfriend being "girl" things. Of course there are exeptions, but in my class I only know one girl who has played something else than sing star.

@Corinthian: I can make food fit for any ocasion, and clean well enough to earn some money doing it when needed. Of course I'm probably insane to know such skils, particularly when I'm about to get my own property :xp:
And yes I'm a man (technically not before monday, but I don't want to repost then).

It's not quite the 1950's anymore, but mental perceptions don't change in 50 years; take a poll of men and see how many of them still think women are best at cooking and cleaning. It's just taboo to say it out loud... which I guess is better than no progress at all. :p


Well there's certainly progress, my mom and dad I would consider somewhere half way out. My grandparents I would consider real 50's folk.

My dad has seen the gamesworld booming, it some attracts him, but he can never "get into it" its something for the kids.

Well at least my little cousin,( my Sisters son) will be raised with games, as daddy plays a lot'em and mom to.
It won't be maniac, my Sister won't let that happen.

Anyway these kind of boards prove there's a differant world already.

To be fair, females are a bit more atuned to communications, whiwh many offline gaming xp do not provide. Then again, I won't call it communication either when it comes to those annoying chipmunk kiddos yelling at teamspeak.

I think it would be a bit of a challenge.
Yes, though unfortunately, a human that is despined is probably long dead before you get to the strangulation part. So I suggest you to get your spine donor elsewhere if you want to strangle someone.

To be fair, females are a bit more atuned to communications, whiwh many offline gaming xp do not provide. Then again, I won't call it communication either when it comes to those annoying chipmunk kiddos yelling at teamspeak.I'd argue that's why women play RPG's; there's a more social feeling to them despite it all being 'preordained,' if you will; RPG's are meant to mimic reality, at least to a certain extent.

And I DARESAY that's why women don't play the popular MMO's in the numbers that men do; whatever folks are doing in there I don't think it what we'd consider 'socializing' for the most part. Probably like acting like morons. :xp:

<3 pre-programmed NPCs :p

See? This proves my point. They're exceptions! And, as everyone says, exceptions prove the rule.

See? This proves my point. They're exceptions! And, as everyone says, exceptions prove the rule.
Wait... what?

See? This proves my point. They're exceptions! And, as everyone says, exceptions prove the rule.You do realize the only reason people say that is because they've lost an argument and aren't willing to concede...?

Besides, there's no rule here. Only an inaccurate stereotype.

And I DARESAY that's why women don't play the popular MMO's in the numbers that men do; whatever folks are doing in there I don't think it what we'd consider 'socializing' for the most part. Probably like acting like morons. :xp:


You say it. But it's you. What if I said to you that I have a little census at hand that states women are 65% of the MMOs players on Brazil? Of course you can consider them an exception since, for example, 20% of the european MMO players are female, but...

Who can guess what a woman is thinking? :xp:

That's because all the men in Brazil are too busy watching/playing soccer. :p

That's because all the men in Brazil are too busy watching/playing soccer. :p
Damn, you got it fast. :D

There's a good social aspect to MMOs. I turn off the local channel for the most part in towns so I don't have to 'socialize' with horny 13 year old boys, but I socialize with the guild I play with. Niner, stoffe, and I run around in Guild Wars with some regularity, and we game with both our guild and the larger alliance. Last night we ran through a tough part of the game with 8 of us guild members (the max party size) while chatting on Vent, and we all had a great time.

My dad cooks. Both my grandfathers could cook. Hubby cooks and does the laundry. My son learned to cook a few weeks ago when I was too sick with the flu to do much of anything, and he did a marvelous job. He's learning how to clean, too, just like my daughter. And just to break the stereotype, I know the difference between a Phillips and slotted screwdriver, can run a table saw, helped with re-roofing our garage last year, and installed the kitchen faucet. Both my kids will learn how to use tools just like both will learn how to cook and clean, and the entire family will enjoy a variety of styles of video games. Welcome to the 21st century.

When was the last time you ever saw a man who wasn't a professional chef do a decent job cooking, Inyri? I have met more guys than girls who are actually interested in cooking, and can blab on about new, covenient and exciting ways to cook fish.

See? This proves my point. They're exceptions! And, as everyone says, exceptions prove the rule. I've never heard that in my life:/ Pretty funky logic you have there:P

<3 pre-programmed NPCs Aye aye! Those with smexy voice-overs :p

I've never heard that in my life:/ Pretty funky logic you have there:P



Never? Merely means that if you can find few counterexamples to refute an argument, it pretty much holds true (not absolutely, since there are the odd obvious exceptions, but generally).

I've known a few girls who can't cook/won't learn. Pathetic really, given that most cooking usually only involves following directions.....and there are more cooking books out there than you could read in a lifetime. Guess they make enough money to eat out or just plan on finding themselves a good "chef". Besides, limiting yourself to simple things like peanutbutter&jelly sandwiches, hotdogs and hamburgers, etc.......just seems so........well, limiting.

I've known a few girls who can't cook/won't learn. Pathetic really, given that most cooking usually only involves following directions.....So then you think men who won't ask for directions are pathetic as well? ;)

Why I have no idea what you're talking about (he said innocently).:angel:

And people call me misogynistic for suggesting that women are better at cooking than men...

And people call me misogynistic for suggesting that women are better at cooking than men...iknorite women are in the kitchen so much its like how can they NOT be good at cooking

And people call me misogynistic for suggesting that women are better at cooking than men...http://www.deitschel.com/graphic-design/portfolio/assets/logo-identity-design/captain-oblivious-block.jpg)

Anyway, Totenkopf, patheticness is subjective. :p

http://www.deitschel.com/graphic-design/portfolio/assets/logo-identity-design/captain-oblivious-block.jpg)

Anyway, Totenkopf, patheticness is subjective. :p

Pretty much true (like most things when it comes to opinions). The pathetic comment, though was more generally aimed, as most cooking is merely a matter of following directions. Anyone (female/male) that whines "..but i can't cook" is likely illiterate. ;)

Mod note:
So... female gamers. Yes, I believe that was the topic of this tread. If you want to continue to discuss gender roles and stereotypes in general please create a separate thread for that. :)

So, what should devs/gaming companies do to appeal to more females? More social interaction in MMOs? More role-playing games? Is there something in 'male games' that could be changed to make it more female friendly, if it should be changed in the first place? Should we work towards games that appeal to both genders or should there be 'male-friendly games' and 'female-friendly games'?

Should we work towards games that appeal to both genders or should there be 'male-friendly games' and 'female-friendly games'?
Ugh. That's pretty hard to answer.

But I guess that making a game that appeals both genres would be difficulty, not to mention another load of worries on the devs backs. But the other option is equally bad, doing gender oriented games and still be careful to not make it so clear that game X is for the men and Y is for the women.

More role-playing games?
I don't think women prefer especially RPGs over the other genres.

But I guess that making a game that appeals both genres would be difficulty, not to mention another load of worries on the devs backs. But the other option is equally bad, doing gender oriented games and still be careful to not make it so clear that game X is for the men and Y is for the women.Well it's not as if you have to make 100% of game X for men and 100% of game Y for women. Everyone is drawn to a game for specific reasons; add some things men like and some things women like, and potentially soften the edges. That way women will be drawn to it for their reason, and men will be drawn to it for their reason, and if you soften both up a little easy aspect will not deter the other gender from playing. I've played many-a-game like that. C&C Renegade was one of my favorites; I loved the team aspect of the game (you couldn't really play successfully without working with your team), and I'm sure the guys loved being able to hop into the mobile artillery and blowing the crap out of the other team's base. ;)


I don't think women prefer especially RPG's over the other genres.It's not that women prefer RPG's over, say, first person shooters. It's not the game type at all. It's usually how the games are set up that affect whether or not women are drawn to them. Let's face it, most FPS's are fairly shallow. RPG's by their nature really (for the most part) have to have considerably more depth than an FPS, so that's probably why women tend to prefer RPG-type games.

However I myself really liked the Call of Duty series because I fell in love with the SP campaign. I'm very fond of WW2 history and I thought the stories were told wonderfully. Plus it wasn't just a 'point and shoot'; you had to be smart. :D

So, what should devs/gaming companies do to appeal to more females?
I don’t know, but if past history is any indication. Take a popular game, put a bow on the PC's head, change the color scheme to pink and give it a more feminine name.

http://www.ilovethe80s.com/mspacman.gif)

Seriously I do not believe there is any one thing that game Dev can do to appeal more to females. Gamers are a diversified group, male or female, and there is no set formula that will appeal to all the segments. Concentrating on hiring more female game writers and developers may help in the process.

Personally I like the idea of developers working on games with better stories regardless if the game is design to appeal to either gender. A good story in a game can crossover to either gender, just like a good movie or a good song does.

It's really a matter of trial and error. If you try to be all things to all people, you usually end up a big mess. While a generalization, I think the following is pretty true: Make the story interesting enough to want to follow and just violent enough for play and you can probably appeal to both sides. Too much of one or the other tends to render a game a little 2 dimensional and cuts into it's ability for mass appeal. Btw, there's nothing inherently wrong with niche marketing games to one gender or the other, though those games might not be as lucrative in the end. Still, especially in light of increasing budgets, it's basically a crap shoot (just like movies).

Everyone is drawn to a game for specific reasons; add some things men like and some things women like, and potentially soften the edges. That way women will be drawn to it for their reason, and men will be drawn to it for their reason, and if you soften both up a little easy aspect will not deter the other gender from playing.
That's the first option. Frankly, 'till today, few games have managed to do that.

I don’t know, but if past history is any indication. Take a popular game, put a bow on the PC's head, change the color scheme to pink and give it a more feminine name.
It don't even needed that. The original Pac-man was already a women-oriented game, or so it's dev says:

"All you gotta do is eat, and women love eating"...

:lol: Cuz men don't, right? But anyway, stoffe yelled at us the last time we started talking about this. :p

In terms of games failing to hit both ends of the spectrum, I don't necessarily think it's true that a lot of games have failed; a lot of games simply haven't tried.

Yes, I agree. But I think that, with games becoming more of a popular media, it'll probably become what movies are today, trying to hit a lot of target audiences at once.

:lol: Cuz men don't, right? But anyway, stoffe yelled at us the last time we started talking about this. :p

In terms of games failing to hit both ends of the spectrum, I don't necessarily think it's true that a lot of games have failed; a lot of games simply haven't tried.

But is that even wanted? Would you really want to play a game that tries to cate to every crowd? What would that be? Some kind of SRPG-action-adventure-shooter-romance-comedy-RTS-turn based-MMO? I mean really, what's the game even trying to accomplish?

And what happens when we get into different races? If genders are hard enough to figure out, different backgrounds and physical appearance differences make things worse.

Honestly, I think the video game market is doing good the way it is, I suppose it really all depends on which kinds of feminist viewpoint you take on the issue.(I'm referring to real feminist theories, not evil fem-nazis, though they are a legit viewpoint).

I think you're misinterpreting "hitting each end of the spectrum" as "hitting every possible end of the spectrum." We don't need every single thing a man/woman might like. I suspect every game you play isn't the perfect ideal-in-every-way game for you, is it?

And I don't necessarily think anyone's really said the game industry wasn't doing fine as it was, now. In fact I've not heard too many of the ladies seriously complain about the choices. Granted I'd say most game developers have been kind of lazy lately (focusing almost entirely on multiplay, especially) but there are plenty of games out there that are not like that and appeal to a vast variety of people, men and women both.

I think you're misinterpreting "hitting each end of the spectrum" as "hitting every possible end of the spectrum."

On a two dimensional spectrum, ie: a closed ended line, if you're hitting girls gamers and guy gamers, those could easily be the same type of players, or vastly opposite players.

Should shooters include fashion-designing elements in order to cater to "girly-girls" and "power-gamers"? Since we've already outlines that the "male-female" spectrum isn't simply "male to female", as there are different kinds of gamers on each side, one cannot hit "both sides" without hitting a hundred other sides.

As somebody put forth earlier, one cannot hit the "female" side of the spectrum, since there really isn't a "female" side of the spectrum, there are players who like different styles of gameplay that men and women fall into. Games targeted at that kind of player are far superior than a game thats attempting to cater to some mythological "male" or "female".

If there's no 'female' side, there's no 'male' side. I'm not going to be naive and say the 'female' side of gaming is for women. 'Feminine' would probably be a better term; it refers to more feminine gameplay aspects. By feminine I don't mean 'fashion design' -- you're being far too stereotypical of women. If a girl wants to do fashion design in a video game they'll go buy the Sims or something, so I think that's kind of a moot point. There are already games catering to those tastes. :p

But then again, most MMO's (and most FPS's, for that option) cater to 'fashion sense' in the sense that they provide dozens of appearances to choose from. So it looks like your point has already been adapted into most games. ;)

I'd wager that most of the devs, like producers, tend to go wherever the money appears to be. That kind of laziness either reduces the range of games/films to "ok, but the same" or a cheap knockoffs of a better product. Ashame, but the business of buisness is business.

Btw, does anyone know what the current estimate of female gamers is as a % of the market?

I may not be obsessed with how my character looks (okay, I lie :p) but I do at least demand a character that looks halfway decent! :p Plus customizing is half the fun, hehe. The other half is severely kicking butt:P

But is that even wanted? Would you really want to play a game that tries to cate to every crowd? What would that be? Some kind of SRPG-action-adventure-shooter-romance-comedy-RTS-turn based-MMO??

Yes. Do it.

The Fall of Mercutio. You play as Mercutio, a member of the ruling house of Verona during Romeo and Juilet. Your role is to discover on the urging of the Prince of Verona the reasons for the conflict between the Capulets and Montagues. As you get involved in the brewing conflict, you can sell your services as a merc for either side, commanding huge armies in RTS-style battles or take part in SRPG combat and make important dialouge choices. Can you find the truth behind the fighting and negogiate a deal between the Capulets and the Montagues? Or will you die in the crossifre?

No no no, please... Romeo and Juliet was not one of Shakespeare's better works. -_-

No no no, please... Romeo and Juliet was not one of Shakespeare's better works. -_-


Just one of his better known ones.

Btw, does anyone know what the current estimate of female gamers is as a % of the market?
Searching Google gave me this (http://www.dbtechno.com/gaming/2008/03/03/esa-report-shows-38-of-gamers-are-female/):
A new report released by the Entertainment Software Association has found that 38% of gamers are female. The ESA report stated that the majority of female gamers play the Nintendo DS, as well as games such as The Sims. Female gamers make up the majority of the market for casual games, featured on the DS, as well as the Nintendo Wii. [...] They also enjoy social games such as MMOs.

Off-topic: I hated Romeo and Juliet....

A new report released by the Entertainment Software Association has found that 38% of gamers are female.

that doesnt surprise me, though I would have figured it more around 30, and actually none of those stats surprise me for some reason. I just don't think the gaming culture has fully absorbed into the female population yet.

I'm interested on what their criteria for being a 'gamer' is, since they don't seem to make a distinction between casual and serious ones.

I wonder whether they count games like Sims :P I'm the only female gamer I know who plays Star Wars/NWN/Fifa :P There are girls I know who play Final Fantasy, thank God.

Heh, you know a bunch of gals here who play SW/NWN/etc.

I agree there seems to be 2 tiers in gaming for females--the casual solitaire type player, and the hard-core 'pre-buy the latest game so you can have a copy the day it comes out and play it non-stop for 800 hours' type player. I would guess that most of the gals here fall closer to the hard-core player end of the spectrum. The casual gamer is going to approach games a bit differently than the hard-core players, though the ultimate goal is entertainment. I think the wants and needs of the two sub-groups of women are different enough, however, that devs need to take a look at that.

Heh, you know a bunch of gals here who play SW/NWN/etc. It is a relief!

I wonder whether they count games like Sims :P I'm the only female gamer I know who plays Star Wars/NWN/Fifa :P There are girls I know who play Final Fantasy, thank God.

the majority of female gamers play the Nintendo DS, as well as games such as The Sims.

that would be "yes".

honestly I don't think female gamers are really that diversed from male gamers. Their girls...who fit into existing categories of gamers, hardcore, casual, MMOers, RPGers, ect....

and: WTF? attention all male gamers: stop hitting on female pixels! srsly...

Girls should play BioShock. It makes playing video games feel unbiased and non-sexist. There's equal treatment for BOTH genders! If hitting women over the heads with a wrench after setting them on fire isn't fun for the whole family, then I don't know what is.

Searching Google gave me this (http://www.dbtechno.com/gaming/2008/03/03/esa-report-shows-38-of-gamers-are-female/):

Well, it's nice to know that the stores clerk records my gender every time I buy a video game.

Girls buying games does not mean they play it. A mom ( :tsk: ) can buy some nice games for her kids, and vice versa. Plus, it is quite common that a game is passed on from a friend to another. I mean, I am pretty sure that many guys got their games borrowed/jacked by their girlfriend/sister/etc. Hack, some unfortunate souls would have their DS (and some fingers) forceably ripped from their hands by a particularly vile sister, along with the copy of his Princess Peach/cute rpg/etc

In short, buyers does not reflect players accurately. Obviously people constantly staying in the same establishment would quite often share a same console, and same goes with the games. Obvious places would be any home where the siblings/parents would share the same game (amongst things like wow accounts and such) But same thing can be said about dorm rooms, houses where most friends hangs out, or the console thrown under the tv in the resting room at a workspace/etc (think about places where you would place the good old ddr matress). These are places where a somewhat constant group of individuals can hand out and play the console/games for ane xtended period of time.


The ONE COPY of the old Smash Bros Melee I had is shared by a tight group of 10 or so friends who are constantly playing on it, as in they are usually hanging around in that living room spending at least 10-15 hours of gametime per week for quite a few months. Yes that includes at least 1 female non-casual player, and a couple of the more casual ones that would drop in occasionally. So how is the buying of this one copy of the game reflect the demographics of players behind it?

And there are quite a few games that would allow for multiple players on the same console, fighting games for example. Such games would typically be shared and played amongst a few people, playing on the same console.

Even an obvious single player game may be played by several players on a regular basis. Its like after you finish some normal grade rpg you would lend it to your friend.

And yes, we are not even getting into people freeloading games and warez.

I'm interested on what their criteria for being a 'gamer' is, since they don't seem to make a distinction between casual and serious ones.
Girls buying games does not mean they play it.

Quoted for answer.

Plus, the "casual" at hand has another name: Wii.

Yes, but when you're running a business, you count what was _sold_ and who bought it, not who actually played it 3 people down the line. ;)