Hello there. About three months ago, I read a thread on here heavily bashing 'role players'. Claiming that they go on servers, and stand around and chat, and then, if somone tries to play, screams that they are a lamer...
Well, this seemed absurd, that people would actually do this. But I wanted to see what they where like my self. So I joined a role playing clan. After doing so, I started to find out the truth about them.
They treated me with respect, somthing that is sadly lacking in most public servers...I enjoyed being there. I enjoyed role playing there. The role playing was very complexed. It was not about playing movie characters, but making your own.
Part of the fun of this was the restrictions that where put in place. In other words, you couldn't simply make a duel weilding Jedi Master Wookiee. You started out as a young kid ( think Episode II with Yoda and the younglings. ) and progressed up the ranks. It took time, and the characters had to be realistic.
The part about them going around and laming servers from what I can see, is completely made up, and false. I have never encountered such a person. They only role played in there own server, no others. This hurts no one, and hating them makes no sense at all.
I would hope that you would not hate them simply because they find something in this game that you did not know was there. JA has alot of role playing potential, with the mods that are out.
Is it because its 'Not what the game was designed for'? That holds no water, as this game is extreamly mod-friendly, so the developers intended this game to be whatever we make it.
They hurt no one, and simply enjoying doing what they do. I see nothing wrong with this, and neither should you. But explain to me, if this post hasn't changed your mind, why you still hate them, I would like to hear it.
It's ok. Looks like the game was made for RPGs. The game isn't much good as FPS. It's just some 3D enhanced chat room. Have fun with it.
Damn, I miss the good old jk.
Originally posted by Hiroki
Part of the fun of this was the restrictions that where put in place. The problem is that not everyone wants restrictions, and not everyone likes it when those restrictions are forced upon them.
Originally posted by Hiroki
The part about them going around and laming servers from what I can see, is completely made up, and false. I have never encountered such a person. So you joined one RPG clan who respected others, and then extrapolated that to say that every RPG clan does the same? To say it is made up is unequivically wrong. People wouldn't have been bitching about it for so long if that was the case. If you have never encountered it, you simply haven't gone to enough servers.
Originally posted by Hiroki
They only role played in there own server, no others. This hurts no one, and hating them makes no sense at all. Good for them. That is appreciated by those of us who do not want to play that way. I have no problem with them (and you) and am glad that they are having fun in their own way. To each there own.
But rest assured that many clans out there do not operate in a similar manner. Also, the term "RPGer" is sometimes over applied. A lot just go to servers and demand that saber down = peace and that various features of the game are gay or lame. They are not roleplaying in the sense that you are discribing.
So, in a nutshell, many players are angry with "roleplayers" who try and enforce their way of playing on others. This, of course, goes both ways. :)
It's not so much the "role players" but rather the folks who act like role player wannabes, the people who get greatly offended if they are killed while typing in the middle of a battlefield, who insist on "bowing" and use of emotes all the time (and get mad if killed while doing one) and who try to vote kick players who "lame" them.
These are the guys you see complain if they are killed with their sabers down and whine about certain powers or moves being "lame."
Essentially they are just whiners, who try to impose their personal view of how the game should be played on others.
Calling them role players is just a habit, because they subscribe to these imaginary "honor codes" that would be more at home in a Role Playing Game than a First Person Shooter.
The original "saberist code" was talked about on here and made fun of, but now it's incredible how widespread these "codes" are. Everywhere you look it's "saber off = peace" "no chat kills" "don't use X, Y, Z powers/moves" lamer this, lamer that, etc.
And while they whine about 'honor', they're often the first one to resort to profanity and other vulgar abuse when you don't follow their "rules." They say they don't care about "getting frags" but they get very upset when they get killed even once when they "weren't ready."
So get ready (we all say), already! ; )
The main problem is the widespread phenomena of the "honor codes" which again, follow these players around, not so much as they are actual role players, but that they seem to regard these mild "role playing elements" as the only way to play the game, to the point where they have to punish people who don't subscribe to their ideology. An example of this is the widespread use (and creation) of "admin mods." These mods were designed with the idea in mind that through punishment and humiliation, an admin can force people to do what he wants... ie: to spend more time using emotes, chatting and walking around with your saber off while you wait to saber challenge somebody in a FFA map, rather than playing the game as the developers intended.
Currently the majority of servers are using some sort of Admin Mod, with the most popular being some form (of the billion or so versions) of JA+ Mod. This leaves few options for competative players anymore, since they always run the risk of being "ampunished" by admins who wish to force them to obey their pet version of the honor code instead of just letting them play.
It was bad enough in the community when we had people being vote kicked for winning, now it's a sin to kill somebody who turned off their saber mid-battle or who brings up their chat box after every kill.
THEIR actions disrupt the flow of games and they insist that their's is the right way to do things. They make up all manner of excuses, like that it's "more honorable," more fun, more challenging, "more star wars" (how so??) , etc.
I don't use the term "role player" because it doesn't really fit the majority. Mainly I like "hon0rz" because it evokes the image of players of limited skill and limitless whining that seems to make up such a large portion of that crowd. Maybe it's a stereotype, but it's one that's reinforced everytime I venture out into the public servers (with few exceptions) unfortunately.
Competative players, and the majority of players who prefer to play an action game and not a role playing or honor series of duels are often offended and bewildered by the desires of these folks to ruin their good time.
So don't take it personally if you play your way on your private server and don't try to force competative players to do things your way.
We don't hate you, we just hate the way some people try to ruin the game for the rest of us who still actually enjoy playing.
To sum up: No, roleplaying is not "evil" rather, the hate for the hon0rz people has really been earned for the most part.
Hmm, it seems alot of this is just pointing fingers at the wrong people...
Yes, I have of course met the hon0rz players, they are everywhere. And yes, I do find them annoying. You do not go into a server ment for fighting and run around with your only means of defence switched of...That is not honar, thats stupidity...
We go on alot of public servers. Though we go there to rumble, to get away from our normal style of play for a bit. Not to enforce rules or yell lamer. I have a few opinions on the hon0rz players and the competitive players, however.
Saber off rule = Complete BS. There are, after all, tons of ways to attack with your saber off, how do they know it is not a trap?
Bowing before a fight = Eh, I'm okay with it personally. If you bow to me on a public server, I'll bow back. I'll never attack either. But I usually wait for them to bow first. You won't find me off guard. ;)
No type killing = Well, I think both can be blamed here. What moron decides to stop and begain talking to his buddy while all hell is breaking lose around him? Don't whine if you're shot or stabbed doing something stupid.
At the same time, I think that competitive players should not kill typing, or afk people if they can avoid it, and if they arn't holding up the match. It is true that there is pretty much no challenge in doing so, and it makes you look like you are desporate for points because you can't get them in a fight. Not to say any of you do, but that is an image that it projects.
Good fight, good job, good spar, great match ect. = Only in duel servers, where if you die there is a pause anyhow. Do not do it after every single kill in a full FFA or TFFA, its absurd. People can't help if they are trying to kill you one minute, then you start typing as there blaster bolt pounds your noggin.
Anyway, that is my thought on the hon0rz. As you see, I do not have much in commen with them, and neither do my friends. So please, get your names straight. ;)
I think you summed it up quite well, Kurgan...
Freakin honourz crap....
But then again, I get bored on your ordinary 'anything' goes FFA server, unless i'm with people I do have some relation with.
I do hate the honourz crap, yet I'd have to admit that without it, I would have gotten bored of JA many months ago ;)
Always nice to hear the whines and complaints of morons, and then to be kicked for breaking the 'ultimate honourz codes'.
Please not another one of these threads.
Originally posted by TK-8252
Please not another one of these threads.
I was gonna say...
You're damn right.
There's also those that think everyone should play their way, and whenever anyone brings up roleplaying or they see an RP server, they groan, whine, complain, and generally throw a tantrum similar to what Kurgan described hon0rz players of doing when you don't play 'their' way. These people are every bit as guilty as the hon0rz people who try and force their own ideas of how to play down others throats.
Actual roleplayers tend to stick to their own (often clearly marked)servers and not bother anyone.
Aw, come on TK. Nothing bad has happened yet.
Well, that's kind of how it goes. After a few weeks or months somebody asks "why the hate" (almost in those exact words too now that I think about it) and then we get varied replies.
Long speeches from people like me and Amidala (admit it, you've done it yourself!), people post lots of well-thought responses then we get people start to flame and the thread gets locked.
Then a few weeks/months later somebody asks why all the hatred... etc.
The question is what is there to say on this subject that hasn't been said?
I wonder if it's the saber combat that brings out this behavior. The idea that this isn't a video game it's a Kendo match or a fencing duel or karate practice. Or the idea that we're not video game players, we're samurai or something.
Or maybe it's that this is Star Wars and people thought they could get by skipping SWG and buy this to live out their fantasies of being Darth Maul or Luke Skywalker?
Who knows, but I've often said "no other community is like our's."
Nobody plays UT or Q3 or any other FPS and thinks they can stand around with their pistol/gauntlet/whatever-weakest-weapon selected and chat, then expect people who kill them to get kicked or banned.
I remember back in the day the "I was typing!" and "I was facing a wall AFK!" complaints existed even going back to the Quake1 days, but it was never done up to the degree we have it today. People should be over that by now. And the honor codes and admin mods it's way excessive. People need to grow some thicker skin, they're so upset of losing 1 life in this game when they're not 100% focused and "challenging" someone. Hey, it's a game, not everyone is willing to wait around for YOU to get ready, and it can't all just be about what YOU think is fun.
Maybe if people thought about how the other guy might feel, they might get farther? Then again to some of these honor folks, the only "fun" to be had is to chat and occasionally saber challenge each other using only the most basic "legal" moves. I dunno.
I guess we just have to keep making the same stock responses every so often.
We should write a "where's the hate" FAQ?
Again, no offense intended to the thread starter, you couldn't have known that we've discussed this a million times before...
Yeah I've stopped hosting FFA and now host Siege. Tons of people are playing that now, although the dedicated "honorz dueling" crowd is still going strong (sadly).
Siege is always good, it preserves the weapons and cuts down on the whining. :)
You should try MBII if you enjoy playing siege games...great mod.
Originally posted by Kurgan
Long speeches from people like me and Amidala (admit it, you've done it yourself.... Notice I haven't gotten into it. Even I'm tired of it. People who like to play games the way they are designed to be played and the way the rest of the gaming world plays them have already left this game to play Call of Duty, UT2k4, Far Cry, etc. How do I know? Because the regulars who used to play on my FFA server (the ones who like the action and excitement of true FFA) have told me so (just to let me know where they went).
All that are left in Jedi Knight games are the make-believe play actors ("no I'M Darth Maul, YOU'RE Obi-wan"), the anal-retentive hall monitors\future traffic cops ("Do you know why I slept you, Sith Master Darth Maul? You used Force with your saber down, that's against the rules". "Do you know why I stopped you ma'am? You didn't turn left into the lane that was most available to you"), and people who would get murdered or laughed at if they went to a REAL FPS game ("this UT2k4 game sucks, there's no killtracker for it"). Siege and CTF players are the few exceptions, and they are getting fewer every week.
The war is over and the Darth Maul wannabes\honor geeks\admin-power abusers\rule fetishers won.
The End.
Ah the eternal optimist. ; )
Yep this is only perpetuated by most of the modders. Or at least so with the Jo ones. Most have learned thier lessons from what happened in that community.
Others will learn after its too late.
Errr, didn't you read my post at all Amidala? We do not play Darth Maul, or Obi Wan, or any movie characters. We play our own, unique, realistic ( by Star Wars physics at least ) characters. Who arn't nearly as powerful as the likes of Mace Windu or Yoda.
You have seen people who actually pretend to be Darth Maul? Hehe, I find that pretty funny actually...
Originally posted by Hiroki
Errr, didn't you read my post at all Amidala? We do not play Darth Maul, or Obi Wan, or any movie characters. We play our own, unique, realistic ( by Star Wars physics at least ) characters. Who arn't nearly as powerful as the likes of Mace Windu or Yoda.
You have seen people who actually pretend to be Darth Maul? Hehe, I find that pretty funny actually... I wasn't talking about you (the people who want to role-play but don't want to buy\subscribe to the game specifically designed for that (Star Wars® Galaxies™: An Empire Divided™) but instead play-act in a First Person Shooter (FPS) game), I was talking about the other 90% of the remaining people playing this game.
Sandpaper wasn't designed to serve the same purpose as toilet paper, but I guess there's no law against it for those who want to use it that way :rolleyes:
"[People who use sandpaper for toilet paper] hurt no one, and [are] simply enjoying doing what they do. I see nothing wrong with this, and neither should you".
So instead of "role player" (which is only a tiny minority anyway) we should instead refer to them as "sore losers" and "honor code n00bz."
Fair enough?
All Roleplayers aren't like these guys, only a few.
I don't object to people playing the game that way either, only that they remain on their own servers doing it and don't try to force people to play the game upside (as it were) down like they do. ; )
Hmm... role-playing you say... never gave it a shot before. I've seen both sides of this game (the real side and the "honor" side) and I can say that if I play one of them too much I eventually develop a huge hunger for the other. So sometimes I need to freak out and play the game as it was meant to be played with "swirling dual-sabers" and sometimes I just want to be "relaxed" (sort of) so I enter some "honor" server.
All I ever role-played was Duel of the Fates, the ESB Luke/Vader duel, the ROTJ Emperor/Vader/Luke scene, and... that's all so far. I plan to stumble upon Darth Vader at the Death Star as Ben Kenobi soon as well ;)
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
I wasn't talking about you (the people who want to role-play but don't want to buy\subscribe to the game specifically designed for that (Star Wars® Galaxies™: An Empire Divided™) but instead play-act in a First Person Shooter (FPS) game), I was talking about the other 90% of the remaining people playing this game.
Sandpaper wasn't designed to serve the same purpose as toilet paper, but I guess there's no law against it for those who want to use it that way :rolleyes:
"[People who use sandpaper for toilet paper] hurt no one, and [are] simply enjoying doing what they do. I see nothing wrong with this, and neither should you".
Normally I'm nothing but amused when you make comparisons like this. Unfortunately in this case I have to disagree a little.
Penicillin is not an invention. It's an extract from a mold. It was not 'created' nor intended to cure diseases, but it was found to do just that, and fairly well.
"[People who use penicillin as medicin] hurt no one, and [are] simply enjoying what they do. I see nothing wrong with this and neither should you."
Jedi Outcast was not designed with Seige mode style gameplay in mind, but guess what? It happened. A few creative players got together with some well designed maps, staked out their respective bases, and it was on! Long before any word that there was even going to be a Jedi Academy, let alone talk of Seige mode being a new gameplay option.
"[People who played Seige style in JO] hurt no one, and [were] simply enjoying what they do. I see nothing wrong with this and neither should you."
Any creative person will tell you that rules were meant to be twisted into pretzels, salted, and eaten with nacho cheese, because life is more interesting that way. Unless you don't like pretzels.
First Person Shooter (FPS) games (going all the way back to DOOM) were designed to be played with one basic goal: use speed, cleverness, marksmanship, movement, and skill to defeat your opponents by KILLING THEM, not boring them to death with chat. That's why they have, um, GUNS, and um, ROCKET LAUNCHERS, and um, EXPLOSIVES, and um, LIGHTSABERS, and um, DEADLY FORCE POWERS (Lightning, Grip), and um, SCORES and POINTS FOR KILLING YOUR OPPONENTS. No points are awarded in Jedi Academy (or any other FPS game) for particularly witty verbal ripostes or doing a great impersonation of a Rodian.
If creative people come up with a variation (Siege as you claim) that still involves using the weapons and tools in the game to provide a new method of BATTLE, I say hurrah and more power to them.
What does that have to do with penicillin or people play-acting in a FPS game because they are too cheap to buy Star Wars® Galaxies™: An Empire Divided™?
Look at it this way, what if I got Star Wars® Galaxies™: An Empire Divided™ and instead of role-playing in it kept talking about scoring points by killing people (if that's even possible) or tried to get a game of Capture the Flag going with people trying to pretend they are musicians or artisans or whatever the hell people are doing in that game? Wouldn't people get annoyed and think that I am strange? Why should we think differently of people doing the equivalent thing in a FPS game?
Let me be clear: I don't "hate" true role-players in a FPS game (fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, etc. etc.), they are harmless as long as they keep to themselves. If they are having fun and not annoying anyone else, who cares? It doesn't change the fact that they are not using the game the way it is DESIGNED to be played (it's based on the Quake III engine, not some role-playing engine). "Well, rules are made to be twisted, etc. etc." Yes, and people can use sandpaper for toilet paper, it's a free country.
If you don't like my sandpaper analogy, I'll give you another: warm apple pie was designed to be served as a dessert. But, as some popular movies have demonstrated, a desperate young man could also use it to, uh, relieve sexual tension. The fact that he can do it and it makes him happy doesn't change the fact that it looks pretty silly and funny to the rest of us.
So there it is: role-playing in a FPS game is analogous to relieving sexual tension in warm apple pie. Using something in a way other than what it was designed for. They have every right to do it, and we have every right to :rolleyes:
Now i may not have been around in the JK community as long as either you kurgan or you amidala, but I must say that I myself have a high regard of honor and a low regard of stupidity.
I have been in all sorts of games where power crazy admins and lamers rule to the calm (relativly) FFA server.
Here are some ways to pick out the "wannabe" RPGers.
1.Fake RPGers will go to an established FFA server and try to RPG.
2.Fake RPGers will go to the middle of a battle and stand like a deer staring at a truck
3.Fake RPGers act like lil B****s.
All this assuming that your "real" RPGer has enough sense not to do these in which case he would not be a "real" RPGer if he doesn't.
pardon my french.
In respect to those "real RPGers" who do RPG the "right" way and do not piss anyone off I salute you.
In respect to those hard core FPS players who want to gib rather than chat I also salute you but lets let people do what they want on their servers and not get angry and say:
"If you want to RPG then get SWG"
Please do not flick anyone off in a server asking for IPs of RPG servers. It is phrases and acts like these that cause flaming and hatred among fellow JKA players. And as amidala stated there are fewer every day. So why cant we all just get along?
Too cheap to buy SWG? No I heard it was a steaming pile of poo and plus the 15 dollars a month doesn't sound too good either.
Originally posted by Blue_Lightsaber
Too cheap to buy SWG? No I heard it was a steaming pile of poo and plus the 15 dollars a month doesn't sound too good either.
Very good point!
I wholeheartedly agree with Amidala on this one...
I left the JK series scene late JO (I do own JA, not sure why though...) because:
- I wasn't a great JO player (okay, so I blowed at the game), but I enjoyed playing on decent servers. After awhile I couldn't find any servers that wouldn't kick me for "typekills" or "bowkills".
- Let's face it, I started playing Medal of Honor (less these days, though), Call of Duty, Halo, and UT2k4 almost religiously. Those games are pretty cut and dry - you kill your opponent, you capture the feckin' flag, or you do some other type of gameplay. I don't have to join a Medal of Honor server and worry about them trying to re-enact "Saving Private Ryan" on the Omaha Beach level. Nobody bitches when you snipe them because they were typing...they just play the game and take their lumps for losses during the occasional chit-chat.
So I'm not exactly going to say I think all roleplayers are bad, but I am going to say you're wrong in saying that people have made up the h0n0rz or people taking their roleplay beliefs into servers that don't want it.
Originally posted by Blue_Lightsaber
... plus the 15 dollars a month doesn't sound too good either. Like I said, cheapskates and tightwads trying to MMORPG with a FPS game. If you don't like SWG, get FFXI or Everquest or something. Or warm up some apple pie....
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
get FFXI or Everquest or something.
And... those games are not Star Wars.
Originally posted by TK-8252
And... those games are not Star Wars.
Really? Duh :rolleyes:
What I'm saying is there are great MMORPG games (FFXI and Everquest), and for Star Wars junkies there is a REAL, DESIGNED TO BE A MMORPG Star Wars game (and the next edition with spaceflight has been announced). Many people play it. The ones who dis it and try to MMORPG in a FPS game (which was designed for a totally different type of game) are trying to hide their cheapness by being snobs ("I heard it was a steaming pile of poo"). The truth came out in the next sentence ("... plus the 15 dollars a month doesn't sound too good either").
Just because the game is a REAL, DESIGNED TO BE A MMORPG Star Wars game doesn't mean it's better.
And if a game that was designed to be a MMORPG isn't good enough for you, how could one that was designed for a totally different game type be better?? How illogical, even for you.
Some people have the ability to create new ideas, think outside the box, imagination. Just because something is classified as "FPS" doesn't mean people can't use it to "buy Bantha Soup in the cantina." Plus, mods help a lot too.
The arguement of "it's a FPS not a MMORPG" has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Hey... wait. Doesn't "FPS" mean "FIRST PERSON SHOOTER?" As in guns? OMG! All servers that are Saber Only are trying to use the game for something it's not classified as! *Gasp!*
Originally posted by TK-8252
The arguement of "it's a FPS not a MMORPG" has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Hey... wait. Doesn't "FPS" mean "FIRST PERSON SHOOTER?" As in guns? OMG! All servers that are Saber Only are trying to use the game for something it's not classified as! *Gasp!*
That's why all of my servers have guns! Two of them have only Tenloss Disruptor rifles and don't even have lightsabers. Not much role-playing going on there. I practice what I preach.
I think saber-only servers are missing out on a lot because guns add so many more options. But at least they are trying to use the lightsabers they way they were designed to be used (to hack off limbs and heads, not as props for some half-baked pseudo-MMORPG game). And I believe points are still scored by KILLING your opponent, not by enthralling them with your Twilek Dance of the Seven Veils.
Originally posted by TK-8252
Some people have the ability to create new ideas, think outside the box, imagination. Just because something is classified as "FPS" doesn't mean people can't use it to "buy Bantha Soup in the cantina." Plus, mods help a lot too. And I'm sure people who use sandpaper for toilet paper and relieve their sexual tension in warm apple pie consider themselves to be "creative, out-of-the-box thinkers" too. The only advantage that JA has over Star Wars® Galaxies™: An Empire Divided™ is cost, as I mentioned before. Whatever alleged faults SWG has, there is no way a good but not great FPS game could be better than it as a MMORPG.
I can't believe you are even debating this, your position is so illogical.
Would you say "Just because a Ferrari is designed to be a sports car doesn't mean it's a better sports car than my Ford pick-up truck"?
Comparing video games to things in real life = No.
Video games are NOT REAL LIFE! You cannot compair things that are so completely opposite. Please understand this!
Originally posted by TK-8252
Comparing video games to things in real life = No.
Video games are NOT REAL LIFE! You cannot compair things that are so completely opposite. Please understand this!
Analogies and metaphors are rhetorical tools used to explain and clarify points one is trying to make.
Wow, video games aren't real life, and FFXI and Everquest aren't Star Wars games. Thanks, I never knew those things. Tell me more!
Nah, that's all the knowledge that you will obtain from me today.
:)
Originally posted by TK-8252
Nah, that's all the knowledge that you will obtain from me today.
:)
Awwww, damn! :amidala:
But in the end, I will go back to what I said earlier:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
The war is over and the Darth Maul wannabes\honor geeks\admin-power abusers\rule fetishers won.
The End.
And goodnight :amidala:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
The war is over and the Darth Maul wannabes\honor geeks\admin-power abusers\rule fetishers won.
The End.
Word.
Night!
You know another thing that sucks in SWG besides the bugs? The fact that no one roleplays there! I have SWG, I still pay the monthly bill. I play it, but not to roleplay, because would be pointless...seeing as no one bothers to do it there.
Besides, Jedi suck horribly in SWG.
You aren't even allowed to master the class because you need apprentice points, and apprenticing a Jedi was disabled.
I havent been to the JA forum in a very long time(months) and I decided to look in for a larf.... I cant believe ppl are still arguing about the same old stuff.... ah well
*leaves JA forum for another very long time*
:p
We need to force the h0n0rz cmmunity to play UTk4 for a month. Immagine: "OGM U LAMED ME I HAD SHIELD GUN UP!!!111 I was typing!!!" Rest of server: LOL!! Ha ha I would give anything to be in that server!
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet
We need to force the h0n0rz cmmunity to play UTk4 for a month. Immagine: "OGM U LAMED ME I HAD SHIELD GUN UP!!!111 I was typing!!!" Rest of server: LOL!! Ha ha I would give anything to be in that server! Now that's the best idea I've heard all day.
Just to make a correction here, "Siege" was not invented by role players.
It began as "SAGA" which was a secret, incomplete game mode left in the code of Jedi Outcast, which was later developed further by the Raven team into what is now Siege (combined with an evolution of Jedi vs. Merc for what became the classes).
A few "SAGA" mods were even made. This had nothing to do with h0n0rz or role players.
And this isn't something unique to the series either, remember UT had "Assault" and we had Team Fortress in the original Quake, plus dozens of variations in many other games before 2003.
From what I read the Jedi in SWG were designed to be very rare and limited, but over time they will be made more numerous and easier to get. They likely will never "compare" to the Jedi in KOTOR or JA to people's satisfication, but c'mon, it's a different kind of game.
Still, for "role playing" there's no better way to do that than in a real role playing game, rather than a first person shooter. It seems 90% of the "role playing" people are talking about anyway is just chatting and walking around, which could be done in virtually any online game. Heck, tons of online RPG's are purely text based.
This is my ideal gaming world:
1) I am under NO (read that again: NO) obligation to bow to anyone in game. Even if they bow to me first or ask me to bow, I don't have to do it.
2) I should not fear being kicked, banned, or ampunished if I refuse to bow.
3) I should not be expected to be protected while chatting (if I want this protection I should only type during spectator mode or while dead). Likewise my opponents should not expect safety while chatting (again they should use spectator mode or type while dead, else they should realize they are fair game).
4) All moves, weapons and force powers not specifically disallowed by the server settings/mods should be available to be used by players. If an admin wants to make rules fine, that's the only exception. However many an admin temper tantrum of banning/ampunishing could be avoided if they would just set the server up to how they want it in the first place rather than allowing something then whining when people use it.
5) People play to have fun and/or to compete, not to see how loudly they can whine and try to anger people with kick/ban/ampunish.
I couldn't have said it better, Kurgan.
*Bows at Kurgans uber long posts*
The master hath spoken... again ;P
Well, I really can't relate to a lot of the honorz or RPG guys, since I really only duel anymore, the occasional FFA or seige, but not much.