What I'm saying is, maybe people don't really want JK4, they want Galaxies: Free Jedi Edition or KOTOR 2: Online Edition.
But why not have all of the above?
I'd love to see JK4 (as a FPS).
I'd love to see Galaxies as an off-line SP game.
I wouldn't want KOTOR online, but I'm sure KOTOR lovers who play online would love it.
(I haven't played KOTOR yet, though I really, really want to, and my 56k won't handle online gaming...)
I think the controls need to be completely overhauled. the awkwardness of saber battles is horrible.
hows this for a new control system - move your mouse up, the saber goes up. down, down. that and improve the collision detection and you have some INCREDIBLE gameplay and online play. multiplayer would have some skill involved then.
3 Words Doom 3 Engine
www.doom3.com)
Of course if they use the Doom3 engine that means several extra years tacked onto the development cycle as the team "learns" the new engine and figures out how to add stuff like Sabers and Force (that aren't in Doom3 to begin with).
And by the time the game comes out, people will be starting to say the Doom3 engine "looks dated."
Trust me, it will happen! ; p
While Raven Software is doing Quake IV which will help them learn the engine (and even assuming Raven is on the next project for JK4 if and when that occurs), I think the Unreal Engine would be a better choice. After all, it's been out for years and its more well known and easier to edit (so I hear). That and the Unreal tech is constantly being updated and refined, so you have games like UT2k3, UT2k4, Unreal II, etc that look amazing and play well (okay maybe Unreal II wasn't anything special, but you get the idea).
I think the controls need to be completely overhauled. the awkwardness of saber battles is horrible.
hows this for a new control system - move your mouse up, the saber goes up. down, down. that and improve the collision detection and you have some INCREDIBLE gameplay and online play. multiplayer would have some skill involved then.
Sounds great, but remember what happened to the VSIM system in "Die by the Sword"? It operated that way, but this just encouraged people to wiggle their mouse rapidly like monkeys, which allowed them to win more often than not. Pure hack 'n' slash basically. Not much skill involved there...
Put in a "block button" and people will just hold it down forever (piece of tape on the keyboard?).
That and any system you use is going to be affected by lag in Multiplayer, so even the best laid plans have to account for that.
PS: I agree with Rhett, definately more Cowbell.
Well technically JA was JK3 in that JK3 was the working title, project title of the game until the name was chosen.
But let's not get into the whole "It should be Dark Forces IV: Jedi Knight III: Mysteries of the Sith II.... " business. ; )
I know, I know.
The logo on the box says "JK II" (the stylized "II" inside the J and K with Academy underneath) and its technically not about Kyle (leading to people comparing it to Mots and calling it an expansion when it wasn't marketed as one, etc).
When Jedi Knight came out, we all called it "JK" only a very few people called it "Dark Forces II" even though that was officially its title right on the box.
Whatever, we know what you mean. ; )
But I doubt the next game will be called "Jedi Knight III" that would be a little confusing, don't you think?
I like the idea of a Force Choice progression actually being a progression, not something so artificial and not just a "press 1 to choose Darkside, press 2 to choose Lightside" as somebody rightly described JA's "choice." ; )
Something akin to "karma" points as you progress that influences your powers and path makes a lot of sense. Making the game into Deus Ex is a tall order, since that's a very different kind of game, but I suppose it could be done. Keep in mind how long it took to make that game though (and all the patching, etc). But if people are willing to wait... that's cool.
It just seems like LA likes to put Raven on tight schedules, so they have to work fast.
Damn Prime that was a long post lol! Anyways I tend to agree with Prime on his comments. Tidus' version sounds very much like Galaxies. I can compare but that was already done by Prime. I for one am not going to pay a monthly fee just to play a game that I just bought for $50.
I can't wait for the next game though. Better graphics, sound (I had some issues in JA), refined combat (more powerful and faster guns / less random lightsaber swinging. Just my personal opinion). As with what I said in my last post (back in the other thread), I want SP co-op. Friends connected via LAN or Internet. 2 at most (3 including yourself). But, this isn't key to play SP, just an option that you can experience with your friends.
For replayablity: In the beginning, you can start out as dark, neutral or light and throughout the game, you can go back and forth between them. Sort of like KOTOR's morality meter. As for endings, I wouldn't mind multiple (3+) so I would have a reason to play the game again.
There's my 2 cents. Nothing too radical but some things that I think would help the series continue.
Originally posted by txa1265
I thought Sony either had one or was putting one out ... but can't remember ...
Planetside is a massively multiplayer fps, w/ just a few rpg elements thrown in
Then, of course, there is Tribes, Unreal Tournament, Quake Arena, Counter Strike, etc, etc, ad infitium, ad nauseum
Originally posted by Tidus01
many gamers have wanted to be immersed in a star wars universe.....
that could all be done.
let me explain some things that would enhance the image of the star wars universe:
1) you create or choose a character
2) you get placed in a servers called PLANETS. let me explain: each server is a different planet on which you live on; these arent your normal servers. these servers include single player and multiplayer together. To elaborate:
3) you start a new identity on a "planet" and u live and save your progress(only) in an appartment building where you have your own room which only you have access to Well the idea sounds nice but li prime said is to much like galaxys so if you want a game like this buy kotor or galaxys so$.
4)As you travel thorugh different markets, you obtain market codes which when you enter in your appratrment you are able to buy, sell. trade items from within your appartment without having to travel all the way to the market itself
5)within the building perameters there is a massive garage for those who live in the building:
each player is allowed to keep probably only one vehicle within the garage
6) moving along, within the server/world there are various buildings, on of which is an Academy, presumingly for Jedis. This Academy is used for training. To explain: as your character progress mentally and physically they are able to gain new features towards themeselves such as
endurance: how welll you take damage, reflex: how well you react and block , etc. ; you are able to gain new force powers such as push, pull, grip,lightining, heal, etc. All of these features towards your character must be trained with within the Jedi Academy. Not going into too much detail, your character must train and live temporarily within the academy and train with others to excell his character in different areas.
7) continuing, as it could be predicted, servers/worlds will fill up and therefore, there should be many of them, each significantly different (different terrains, buildings, items, etc.). Now you ask
" well...how how can i go to planet XYZ and talk to Joe Shmoe? "
....to answer that, you go to a special place where starcrafts are held, you get into a planet transportation shuttle and it will take you to the planet of your choice. .... now you ask,how do I save when on another planet? well to answer that you should have a choice of renting an appartment.
8) the gameplay will be very similair to Jedi Acedmemy although one main new feature that will DEFINETLY be noticable. I call it - The Blocking Button -!!
in Jedi Academy you do not quite control defense....but within this game, blocking will be don automaticlly 10-20 percent of the time and manually blocking will have to be taken in mind when fighting; for in Jedi Acedmy/Outcast the game is very strongly based around runing around, moving away from an attack and then jumping towards the enemy with another attack (no defensive side to th game really).
No you ask - where can we fit the Block button to make the fighting comfortable? well, already thought of that. If youre using the mouse, and you probably are, then the block button would be the Middle mouse button.
9) your character would probably be able to carry a few weapons (unlike Jedi Academy you should be grounded to the floor for you carrymrethen 10 weapons and items). You always carry a pistol. (1) You carryYou are able to carry (1) BIG WEAPON such as rocket launcher. And you are able to carry (1) Medium size weapon. And you carry a lightsaber/sword (1)
10) your health would go down realisticlly. your armor will prevent a horrible death. and as in HALO, your able to purchase for a great deal of money a Power Shield. This prevents a minimum amount of damage going through. when it wears down normal damage will go through. but soon the Power Shield recharges.
if I think of anything else I'll add it in
msg me if u want at ibendelman@hotmail.com
understand this is only a taste of whatcould be done to let star wars fans live thier star wars fantasy
.......*taking in breath*
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sabretooth
[B]Here's how the RPG thing will work - (to my mind)
Remember the mission overview shown after every mission? That data can be used to analyze what sort of Jedi you are. In JK:JA, your core powers advanced with the tier you are playing in (t1=1 force, t2=2 force) etc. But ink JK4, it should be based on your gameplay. If you are a person who jumps a lot, your Force Jump will increase faster. If you go fast, your Force Speed incrases and so on. That really seems Jedi-ish, otherwise, you add a point, and you learned so-and-so power. Gr8!
The character will also have statistics like Attack, Defense, Agility etc. These will increase depending on how you battle and move. There should also be one statistic named "Wisdom". This makes you wiser and more effective with your saber and force. You obtain wisdom by analyzing the style you battle, the choices you make, the sabers and weapons you choose etc.
The conversion is also automatic. In JK: JA, you can learn all Light side abilities and turn to the dark side. Sounds pointless. In JK4, the computer will choose your side depending on Wisdom.
Wisdom will be of to types. Minus wisdom (dark side) and Plus wisdom (Light side). After every mission, you're wisdom is calculated. Suppose in one mission you get +35 Wisdom and in the other, you get -50 Wisdom (Bad, bad Jedi!:D ) then you have -15 Wisdom. In other words, you are a bit on the dark side. Well I like the idea but it sounds alot like kotor and if you want a game like this go buy kotor!$$$$$$$
they should bring back sam and max easter eggs like in the old jk games, they should bring back force projection from MotS (the kyle makes a dummy of himself that punches mid-air while you run away with force persuasion), definitely fix the saber fighting so its not run, spin, click click click click, swing, lucky kill, die, respawn, run, click, click (you get the picture), and they should make the RPG-like alignment chooser so you can turn to the dark side through your own actions (like in KOTOR).
also, it seems there's a lot of dispute on which engine they should use for the sequel if they make one. i think they should make a new engine perfect for star wars saber fighting, force powers, dual weapons, etc. it may take a long time but with a good, solid, new, perfect star wars engine, they could make sequels until computer gaming graphics got sooo good that they had to make a new one.
Remember the mission overview shown after every mission? That data can be used to analyze what sort of Jedi you are. In JK:JA, your core powers advanced with the tier you are playing in (t1=1 force, t2=2 force) etc. But ink JK4, it should be based on your gameplay. If you are a person who jumps a lot, your Force Jump will increase faster. If you go fast, your Force Speed incrases and so on. That really seems Jedi-ish, otherwise, you add a point, and you learned so-and-so power. Gr8!
Well, based on that, I can be a Jedi Master by completing just one mission. Just jump, use heal, absorb, push and pull alot! And booya! Master of the Force you are. ;)
I'm going to merge these two threads, since they're talking about the same thing.
Originally posted by jojobob
they should bring back force projection from MotS (the kyle makes a dummy of himself that punches mid-air while you run away with force persuasion)
Not to mention projectile throw and destruction from Jedi Knight. But Deadly Sight bothered me, it just was annoying!
We also should get Jedi Master mode and Holocron FFA back (by default), those were awesome! Jedi Master was a favorite at my LAN Parties.
No I don't think a block button should just be a matter of holding down it down and you block everything. You would have to time hitting the button to block. It would sorta be like the Phantom Menace blocking. You don't control the way in which the saber moves to block a saber, but when you hit the button affect whether you block the hit. The only reason I say there should be a block button is that in JO I sometimes run into the problem of trying to attack with the saber and having the autoblock override my movements to try and deflect my opponent's blade. If that annoyance was removed and attacks would utterly override autoblock against a saber I don't think it would be necessary. Also I just think blocking another person's saber should be more effective. In the movies we see saber wielder's parrying each others attacks all the time. In JO that really doesn't happen so much.
As for bringing back powers like destruction I think thats a no no. We don't want a star wars game to degenerate into mortal kombat or dragon ball z.
For mission selection I think they should change it to where you have a braching storyline where you are presented choices of where to go and what to do. But you should feel in the midst of events. It should not be an unimportant objective decision that doesn't seem to affect anyone.
Oh and the only statistics that should have anyplace in the next JK game should probably be ones such as computer hacking, first aid, lock picking, and maybe stealth. And a morality score. How you fight should not be a battle of statistics like KOTOR. THis is an FPS not an RPG.
Originally posted by JediLiberator
No I don't think a block button should just be a matter of holding down it down and you block everything. You would have to time hitting the button to block. It would sorta be like the Phantom Menace blocking. This wouldn't work for MP due to lag. It it hard enough defending with auto-block on all the time. Shortening that window would make it much more difficult...
Originally posted by Kengo
Actually, I think I'd settle for an engine where they really, really got the saber combat to film esque standards. Don't get me wrong, its good now, but if tactics came into play a lot more it would be great. It still has a little of a Q3, slightly random feel to it, good as it is, and you rarely see two people going toe to toe for 5 minutes ducking and sidestepping and such, ala the films.
In essence, I'd like a bit of a departure from current FPS standards rather than another FPS that happens to have the saber, which is how JA felt to me a little. It's good, but Raven can do better.
Totally off topic but LEC better not have cancelled Sam and Max 2...
I think that if the mouse were used to emulate human arm movement thus mimicking arm movement and used in combination with the keyboard, i think the saber combat could be greatly enhanced to make the duels more realistic like the movies. It's just a matter of the collision detection and how well the interaction with the mouse the devs make the game. But i think the answer lies with mouse movement in that how you move the mouse would be the way the saber would move onscreen. I figure if you hold down mouse button 1, that would be your primary attack, also you could switch styles as in JO/JA but it would be more in tune with the seven styles laid out in the source books. I would say that the staff and dual sabers would work in the same manner, maybe tweaked a little different.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
But i think the answer lies with mouse movement in that how you move the mouse would be the way the saber would move onscreen. Isn't that pretty much how it is now? I mean, for the basic swings you have pretty fine control of where your saber goes. You can control whether you swing horizontally, vertically, or on the diagonals. You can swing high or low. Ultimately, you can more or less put the saber where you want it.
I'd say time would be better spent improving the collision detection which right now forces people to use attack and dodge strategies.
Originally posted by Prime
I'd say time would be better spent improving the collision detection which right now forces people to use attack and dodge strategies. Absolutely. I mean - look at where Raven has taken normal shooter technology. Others may have better AI, but GHOULII is the best hit system - precision targeting tied into 36 hit zones, each with its' own characteristics. That is a major reason I love SoFII - it is a blast running around popping heads with the OICW ... so much more deterministic than RtCW or MoHAA were (or even newer games like CoD or H4l0).
How do you make a FPS with RPG elements that is satisfying to all involved? Not easy - I'd say Deus Ex was best at that. JK was pretty good, but it had an added dimension of light/dark conflict. Personally I'd love tons of NPC's, not just for environment, but the occasional discussion or side-quest. I'd love a skill-based progression like the hak-n-slashers ... if you're a gunner, you'll become a master gunner, same for sabers. Same, possibly, for Force Powers.
I very much agree that tomorrows engines are todays dreams which quickly become yesterday's news. Making a mediocre game with great graphics & physics & geomod or whatever ... is still a mediocre game.
Mike
so why dont they use the Doom 3 engine like blackwolf stated?
i mean they didnt have sabers and force in Q3 did they?
and yes in JA you're lucky if you block a hit since you either dont
block at all or one or both of your sabers are whacked.
Originally posted by Prime
Isn't that pretty much how it is now? I mean, for the basic swings you have pretty fine control of where your saber goes. You can control whether you swing horizontally, vertically, or on the diagonals. You can swing high or low. Ultimately, you can more or less put the saber where you want it.
I'd say time would be better spent improving the collision detection which right now forces people to use attack and dodge strategies.
I don't think you quite understand me prime. What i propose is that when you move the mouse, let's say for instance you want to attack someone using an upward slash at a certain angle, the mouse would directly emulate that movement. It would not be a pre-set, pre-programmed move but instead no two swings would be the same. I really couldn't give you a visual example but i could liken it more to the way freelancer uses the mouse in flight. Another example would be blocking. Your opponent goes for a low attack he swings towards your right so to block this attack you would do a low counter-clockwise circular movement, the movement of the mouse would be emulated onscreen, this movement would block the attack.
Ok i got it, your mouse pointer on screen would be tip of your saber, so lets say you move your mouse upwards, the pointer or in this case the tip of the saber would be towards the top of your screen. You then jiggle the mouse left and right, the saber would again follow your every movement, thus being more like an extension of your arms and giving greater freedom of movement as opposed to preset movements, in essense, the freedom of saber movement would only be limited by your imagination. Techniques, such as lunges could be accomplished by pressing the forward key on your keyboard. Blocking could be accomplished either by holding down mouse button 2 or having autoblock.
I just finished playing JK:DFII again...and I decided to go totally dark side. I think that it would be interesting if they developed that plot line. Here's why:
1. Kyle looked cool in his big swishy Emperor cloak that he wore at the end - better than his Outcast/JA outfit.
2. Sariss would make a great nemesis...she double-crossed Jerec by not showing up to trying and defeat Kyle, then becoming his apprentice/assistant...what would happen if she then double-crossed Kyle & tried to take the power for herself? They could even have Kyle trying to defeat Luke Skywalker & overthrow the New Jedi Order and the New Republic.
Basically, this would be the total opposite of what they've done...but I think it would be a lot of fun...at the very least it would be better than waiting until you're almost finished only to get something like "kill Rosh to be dark or turn off your saber to be light." Come on...everybody wanted to kill Rosh...he was a whining loser.
Hey! Here's an idea! In the next game, Rosh goes dark again and makes thousands of clones of himself & tries to take over the galaxy. Then, we'd get to kill Rosh over and over and over again, fulfilling every JA player's fantasies without committing to the dark side!!!
Maybe not...but I think some kind of plot line based on a dark side choice in DFII would be lots of fun.
For the next title for the JK/JA series...
New engine, make MP a true dueling experience.
Diferent tasks during SP not just a frag fest and get the key to unlock door puzzles. Maybe a bit more of adventure type for SP where you can pick diferent paths and methods to finish a level.
A good compeling interactive storyline.
I like when you play an FPS that puts you in a middle of a battle with some npcs on your side.
DF2: JK was the best of the series IMO. I want a city that lives... civilians always help...in DF2, the civies where rare and scarse...more numbers are quite possible nowadays and i think it would add depth to the game... other than that it's a rush to enter a fire fight with innocent bystanders in the way ;) Even tho I like dueling as much as the next guy... a horde of saber wielders just doesnt feel right... specially the force injected reborn... I know most people may disagree, I'd prefer battling vs gun wielders throughout all the game and having few but good and justifiable duels as in DF2. I still remember the rush of playing every map wishing the next map would have one of the 7 Dark Jedi... and finally, each time a Dark Jedi map appeared, the anxiety... the rush of it all.
With all them saber wielders around you jsut go "oh brother another pathetic reborn/cultist/whatever... let's get this over with"... "oh man... do they expect to have an upper hand because there's 2 of them? who the "fek" are they kidding?"
Nowadays it just seems so boring I'd much rather go obi-wan/qui-gon vs battle droids and hack away while dodging blaster fire (which depending on the nubmer, distance and map location relative to mine... i find more challenging cuz i hate getting hit and will avoid it at all costs).
Dont take me wrong... I did like JO and JA... it just doesn't compare to the storyline in DF2 (not by a long shot), the bosses are just plain dull compared to jerec and his dark jedi... the maps where more interesting in DF2 save some exceptions (Baron's
Hed/the fuelling station/nar shadda/etc)
Somehow the clothing in DF2 seemed more appropriate than the ones in the followign 2 games.
If im allowed a bit of nit picking... I'd prefer the modly crow to the raven's claw anyday. ;p (ok..this one is really unnecessary but it's true)
One last thing... for a next title.. Katarn yes... he's crutial to the series... but just let go of the recycled reborn plotlines... go for a new approach. and preferably... a more vaderish last boss... with a more maulish as his apprentice. Jerec (even tho not as good as vader) as a lil vader type boss... I think desaan was meant to be liek that as well but something went astray(ash tray?) with that character...and tavion was a joke.
Once again i'd just like to enphasize that I luved the JO and JA...and I have a good impression of Raven Software... I just think that DF2 was better storyline/feel wise... and raven can really beat that if they want/are allowed to.
Cheers
The game shouldn't be strict. Suppose you are going to escort a senator to the Senate and there are enemies on the way. Then you kill the Senator somehow. Your wisdom will drastically go down and you will be ejected from the mission unless there is another important objective. The story will continue, but your wisdom will be so low, you'll need like 2 missions to bring it back up.
The key setup will be usual, but the X key can be used for blocking. In Padawan and Jedi modes, your character will automatically block on pressing X, but in higher difficuties, you will need to assign a direction with it.
A TV or Replay system should be provided to check out replays of cool kills or make Jedi Documrentaries. An easy-to-use mission editor should be included as well.
To make crystals, you will need to find crystals. You can collect these crystals on some planets found in the game and then create a new saber. Your saber type will depend upon your crystals. If you got a bag full o' crystals, you might be able to create a saberstaff or maybe two! If you get enough for just one, you are given a choice to either replace it or use it as a dual sabers.
As for what the druid said, each mission will have a limit of how many jumps, blocks, saber throws, etc. to be considered during analysis. This will stop all of you walk-through followers!!
New move system:
The new move system will allow you to make new moves with force, saber etc. Suppose I want to choke and electrocute my opponent at the same time. Then I press F10 and F11 together and a notice will arrive saying that I have made a new move. Then if I press Tab and check the moves, I'll see my move as well. Now you have to just press a key to assign it to the move and viola! You have just invented and assigned a new move!
The AI should be better as well. What do you think a Sith or duelist is doing standing in one place? For a stormtrooper, he has a postion but a Sith? Saber-weilding opponents will move about and take rounds in the map. Also when they see one of there friendlies in danger or see a duel, they should instantly join and support their friends. Also, when you kill say 20 stormtroopers and 5 are still left. They will just run away rather than face you and die. If you get real close, then they will shoot you in a final attempt to kill you.
Again, if you say "move the mouse and it moves your saber" (attacking) then what do you propose we do about the problems inherent in this type of system (like Die By the Sword and it's VSIM?).
Example: player wiggles mouse around like madman, wins duel.
Why? Because he's swing his saber around so fast that it's forming a virtually impenetrable wall that his enemy can't penetrate and he can use it to wear down any defenses and batter his opponent to the ground.
Where's the skill in that? The strongest wrist wins!
Now if you want to go with the (defunct) Obi-Wan PC's "glyph system" you have other problems.
Okay, so the game makes you hold down a key while you twirl the mouse around in various shapes then release it to do a special scripted move.
Okay, so that means a large part of the duel is just going to be standing around while you wait to release a move. Some fun...
I suppose you could then have a second button for "fast attack" (just a plain quick swing) and still move with the strafing, turning keys, but that seems unnecessarily cumbersome.
Plus, what if people script the moves to gain an unfair advantage? Or what about lag? Lag will screw up these systems just as much if not moreso than the current hit detection moves system.
Likewise the block button, and "you have to time it perfectly" systems will also be affected by lag, and what will they really accomplish?
Maybe they'd be good for single player, but multiplayer, forget it.
why dont they use the Doom 3 engine like blackwolf stated?
i mean they didnt have sabers and force in Q3 did they?
and yes in JA you're lucky if you block a hit since you either dont
block at all or one or both of your sabers are whacked.
True, but remember that Raven already knew the Q3 engine very well from having done Elite Force. Then they cut their teeth on force powers/sabers with Jedi Outcast. (and the fact that they were getting even more practice by doing Soldier of Fortune II at more or less the same time as JA)
This made making Jedi Academy a lot easier since they could build on what they already knew.
Hand them the Doom3 engine and they'll have to start over from scratch, so it'll be a few years before they can make a new Jedi game based on it that stands up to the previous installments.
Granted, Raven is now working on QuakeIV, but again, they'd need another two games to get it "right" (if the past are any indictaions).
The Unreal engine is still a better choice since it's so familiar and has proven itself time and again.
The only reason that people are demanding Doom3 is because it has "wow graphics."
What does Doom3 offer that would specifically benefit a Jedi Knight game? Other than graphics I can't think of anything offhand. But maybe people who know more can tell me...
The only reason I can see for Doom3 to be an option is if Raven is picked again to do a Jedi game in the near future and they have gotten enough experience with the engine to think it could work.
Given Raven's long association with ID software's engines, it's possible they may go that route first anyway.
If Republic Commando proves a success perhaps LA will decide Unreal tech is a better option. Who knows?
It's based on time and money. If they think they can do it faster and cheaper (will still living up to the previous installments) on one engine than another, they probably will do so.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I don't think you quite understand me prime. What i propose is that when you move the mouse, let's say for instance you want to attack someone using an upward slash at a certain angle, the mouse would directly emulate that movement. It would not be a pre-set, pre-programmed move but instead no two swings would be the same. I really couldn't give you a visual example but i could liken it more to the way freelancer uses the mouse in flight. Another example would be blocking. Your opponent goes for a low attack he swings towards your right so to block this attack you would do a low counter-clockwise circular movement, the movement of the mouse would be emulated onscreen, this movement would block the attack.
Ok i got it, your mouse pointer on screen would be tip of your saber, so lets say you move your mouse upwards, the pointer or in this case the tip of the saber would be towards the top of your screen. You then jiggle the mouse left and right, the saber would again follow your every movement, thus being more like an extension of your arms and giving greater freedom of movement as opposed to preset movements, in essense, the freedom of saber movement would only be limited by your imagination. I neat idea, but the issue I see is that you are trying to map movement in 3D space with the 2D movement of the mouse. If you have the tip of the saber follow the mouse, you can indicate up/down/left/right, but how do you specify forward and back? The game will have to guess where you are really pointing at. You may want to try and stab at something four feet away, but the game might think that you are pointing right in front of your face. JA solves this by allowing you to guide the saber swing in a 2D plain while it handles the other plain.
It's based on time and money. If they think they can do it faster and cheaper (will still living up to the previous installments) on one engine than another, they probably will do so.
True, but I think that most (if not all) of us would prefer quality to quantity. I enjoyed JA, but it didn't come close to the quality of DFII as far as plot & character development goes. Let's face it - Jaden was a surface character that didn't quite fit into the central role of a JK game. They could also do so much more with graphics and gameplay than the Quake engine allows.
Personally, I will be very hesitant to buy the next JK game if it comes out too soon. At the very least, I'd put off buying it until the price goes down to 15 bucks or so. I'd rather wait longer for a better quality game. I don't know if Raven would go for that, but I think it's safe to say that that's wat gamers want.
Tidus' proposal suggests that he wants JK4 to be an RPG game. However, not all of us like to do RPGing. From what Tidus has posted, he clearly assumed that all of us are RPG players. Sadly, this isn't the case. RPGing's fun, yeah, but not in the Jedi Knight series that isn't based on RPGing in Dark Forces, Outcast, and Academy. If JK4 becomes a RPG game, the player numbers will greatly decline. You want some Star Wars RPG games, go play Galaxies.
Hmmm....
The druid's got a point there...
How about realeasing JK4 as an FPS like Jedi Academy and releasing a parallel series of Star Wars RPG games?
Star Wars
Knights of the New Republic sounds good!:D
or maybe...
Star Wars
Jedi Warrior
Originally posted by Druid Allanon
Tidus' proposal suggests that he wants JK4 to be an RPG game. However, not all of us like to do RPGing. From what Tidus has posted, he clearly assumed that all of us are RPG players. Sadly, this isn't the case. RPGing's fun, yeah, but not in the Jedi Knight series that isn't based on RPGing in Dark Forces, Outcast, and Academy. If JK4 becomes a RPG game, the player numbers will greatly decline. You want some Star Wars RPG games, go play Galaxies. The Star Wars universe is big enough for a FPS, RPG and MMORPG.
Let me explain:
- Galaxies is a classic MMORPG. Plain and simple.
- KotOR is a normal CRPG - not an 'action RPG' like Diablo, but somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.
- The Jedi Knight series, however, is problematic in that it is not a true FPS*. Since JK, it has been a mixed FPS & RPG-lite.
So that makes things difficult. JK offered choice in force powers and a 'morality' scale for the light / dark path. Unfortunately, the implementation of the saber and powers was (IMO) pretty weak, and the light dark amounted to kill civilians or not.
JKII, while offering tremendously useful force powers and saber, had basically no personal character development tree.
JA is like a mix of the two. Your 'core' powers increase naturally, and you choose the rest based on your tendencies (although you only get a stat screen lecture if you choose all dark powers, the rest of the dialogue is fixed). Light dark is a one-shot - "You have reached the Jedi Path Hotline, press 1 for light or 2 for dark, thank you and may the force be with you" ;)
Many of us look to what Deus Ex had for skill progression and choice as a possible improvement in the FPS/RPG-lite genre. We would like to make some (but not all) dialogue choices, to have some say through our actions about our force path, and about what type of Jedi to be. Some of that isn't just RPG - although the implementation isn't trivial, wouldn't it be exciting to choose to play as a stealth Jedi (rewarded for few kills and alarms) or a gunner (again, limited saber kills) or a blade-master, or a Force-mage?
But all of that is predicated on a FPS-first assumption. I love FPS. I also love RPG's - but for different reasons. The Jedi Knight series seems a great opportunity to push the FPS/RPG-lite genre.
Mike
*with the exception of Dark Forces, and that is unique by having an actual story with a real character for the protagonist.
Originally posted by rccar328
I enjoyed JA, but it didn't come close to the quality of DFII as far as plot & character development goes. Let's face it - Jaden was a surface character that didn't quite fit into the central role of a JK game. To be fair, Kyle is a character than has been fleshed out over the course of several games, and has a concrete backstory. Jaden more or less can't have a back story because each player has their own Jaden. This difference inhibits the story, and isn't necessarily an indication of bad writing.
Originally posted by txa1265
The Star Wars universe is big enough for a FPS, RPG and MMORPG.And I like it this way. I'd rather have different games that are true to different genres and do them well. Like you said, KOTOR is a crpg and does it well. It doesn't try to be a FPS or other genre. It is possible to incorporate elements from other genres, but they have to be careful not to overdo it. Trying to do everything usually means that they don't do one thing really well.
Personally, I like having different Star Wars games that provide different experiences. I play the X-Wing series because it provides great space combat. I loved KOTOR because I do like RPGs and it delivered that in spades. I love the JK series for the FPS action. Wanting to play one genre doesn't exclude wanting to play others. I like the different games for different reasons.
The fact I love KOTOR and enjoy the rpg aspects of it doesn't mean I think all those things should be in the JK series. I want JK to provide a fast-paced FPSing appeal, not tons of character development Let each game provide a different experience. Then I can play each game when the mood suits me.
Originally posted by Prime
The fact I love KOTOR and enjoy the rpg aspects of it doesn't mean I think all those things should be in the JK series. Absolutely agree! For example - party management and aiming. In a FPS, *I* do the killing - I don't like having to babysit anyone else, or wait for them or whatever. And I certainly don't want to have to worry about their tactics and what weapon they're choosing or how they feel about the pile of bodies I just left behind. Similarly, in an RPG I like to select my attacks and move on, watch things unfold, weigh the situation, then start again. An RPG is not the place to be popping head shots with an OICW like in SoFII.
I want JK to provide a fast-paced FPSing appeal, not tons of character development Definitely FPS - but not necessarily fast paced. And while not too much character development, I'd stress character *choices* should be important. Given a flexible game system I can either roleplay or just run-n-gun. I can use stealth or kill-no-ask-questions-never. Whatever. But choices and flexibility are keys.
Mike
Originally posted by Kurgan
True, but remember that Raven already knew the Q3 engine very well from having done Elite Force. Then they cut their teeth on force powers/sabers with Jedi Outcast. (and the fact that they were getting even more practice by doing Soldier of Fortune II at more or less the same time as JA)
This made making Jedi Academy a lot easier since they could build on what they already knew.
Hand them the Doom3 engine and they'll have to start over from scratch, so it'll be a few years before they can make a new Jedi game based on it that stands up to the previous installments.
Granted, Raven is now working on QuakeIV, but again, they'd need another two games to get it "right" (if the past are any indictaions).
The Unreal engine is still a better choice since it's so familiar and has proven itself time and again.
The only reason that people are demanding Doom3 is because it has "wow graphics."
What does Doom3 offer that would specifically benefit a Jedi Knight game? Other than graphics I can't think of anything offhand. But maybe people who know more can tell me...
The only reason I can see for Doom3 to be an option is if Raven is picked again to do a Jedi game in the near future and they have gotten enough experience with the engine to think it could work.
Given Raven's long association with ID software's engines, it's possible they may go that route first anyway.
If Republic Commando proves a success perhaps LA will decide Unreal tech is a better option. Who knows?
It's based on time and money. If they think they can do it faster and cheaper (will still living up to the previous installments) on one engine than another, they probably will do so.
Well, Raven was handed the Doom 3 engine 2 or 3 years ago so that they could learn the new technology before actually starting to make Quake IV, so they should know the Doom 3 engine quite well by now. The interface of the Doom 3 engine is actually based on that of Quake III's (John Carmack basically took the Quake III code, ripped out the renderer and wrote a new one), so the learning curve is actually fairly easy if you've worked with the Quake III engine. It's only the new technology which you have to learn, and that's something you have to do no matter what modern engine you use.
The Doom 3 engine has everything that you'd want in a Jedi Knight game...graphics (in particular, the unified real time lighting and shadows which no other engine currently uses), great physics, very good sound engine (it has sound physics for sounds bouncing off the actual walls and stuff in the levels), better mod support due to every file used by the Doom 3 engine (except the texture images) being text files (even the model files and model animation files!), the support for large outdoor scenes with terrain (yes, the Doom 3 engine can easily do a kilometer of terrain), vehicle support. Those last two are things that were actually mentioned by John Carmack when he said that Splash Damage (the people who made the multiplayer levels for Doom 3) were having fun bouncing a buggy around on some terrain, but that that wasn't the type of game Doom 3 was, so it wouldn't be in Doom 3. The Doom 3 engine supports it, however.
Also, besides the text files making editing easier, the Doom 3 engine actually has the Radiant editor built into the game engine itself, so you can render what the level will look like in real time in the editor preview frame.
Anyway, the Doom 3 engine isn't completely different to work with, since it's based off of the interface used by Quake III (even the material/shader files are about the same, only with many more functions), and since it supports every technological thing that people seem to want in the next Jedi Knight game, and since Raven is probably going to be the one developing it, the Doom 3 engine really is a good choice.
And I like it this way. I'd rather have different games that are true to different genres and do them well. Like you said, KOTOR is a crpg and does it well. It doesn't try to be a FPS or other genre. It is possible to incorporate elements from other genres, but they have to be careful not to overdo it. Trying to do everything usually means that they don't do one thing really well.
Well said indeed. RPGing shouldn't even be incorporated into a FPS game like JKA. :)
I don't see why both camps can't have what they want. Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. I'm sure if enough people speak up, they would listen. If the potential to make more money presents itself luca$art$ would take the opportunity. I would buy both.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. They probably know ... in fact, didn't some company call Ion Storm come out with something supposed to be along the lines of Deus Ex? But didn't that game also blow chunks?
;)
Seriously - we know that KotOR has sold extremely well, and both JKII and JA were top-sellers ... hopefully that bodes well for future developments.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
Definitely FPS - but not necessarily fast paced. And while not too much character development, I'd stress character *choices* should be important. Given a flexible game system I can either roleplay or just run-n-gun. I can use stealth or kill-no-ask-questions-never. Whatever. But choices and flexibility are keys. True. I'm thinking "fast-paced" compared to how RPG combat works. With "character development", I'm think more in terms of character progression. In a FPS, I don't want to have to manage a bunch of stats and attributes, or worry about my +3 blaster. I want my abilities to improve over the course of the game, but I don't want to have to micro-manage them (that's what I want in RPGs). I still want character development in the story and the choices I can make story-wise.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I don't see why both camps can't have what they want. Usually because in reality neither camp gets what they want. It's fine to say we want a game that has all the great elements from lots of genres, but in the end all these things are not always compatible, or get the amount of work they deserve. There are limited time and budgets, so the more features you add, the less focus each gets. I'm not saying it is impossible, I just don't want to sacrifice the FPS history of excellence of the Dark Forces series by trying to turn it into another genre. To me, the story and choices you can make in the story are where the RPG elements should be in the JK series.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Let luca$art$ know that there is a big market for an deus ex like FPS. I'm sure if enough people speak up, they would listen. But is there really a big market? I don't know, but Lucasarts is not dumb. They do lots of market research and they know what sells. Dues Ex came out almost 4 years ago. If all people wanted was that kind of FPS, they would be everywhere. But they aren't.
I suspect that they find that FPS players want games that provide an excellent FPS experience, and don't care about other genres being in there. Likewise for RPG players. Sure there is some overlap, but what players don't like is a bunch of sub-par elements from a bunch of different genres. Jack of all trades and master of none, so to speak.
Look at JA. Most hardcore FPS players wanted excellent lightsaber combat that improved on JO. Many felt that they didn't get that. They don't care about how many pairs of pants you can choose from. They'd rather Raven get rid of the RPG stuff and focus on providing the best possible FPS lightsaber experience.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
If the potential to make more money presents itself luca$art$ would take the opportunity. I would buy both.I think you are right. So I would say that it is likely a good indication that Lucasarts hasn't seen a lot of potential to make more profit.
I think that Lucasarts has found that licensing work out to genre specific companies to create genre specific games is how to make the most profit. I mean, who can argue with the success of KOTOR, JO, and so on?
Originally posted by Prime
my +3 blaster. Where'd you get the +3 Blaster? I had Jaden quaffing potions of whoopa$$ but he could only wield a +1 Staff of Dismemberment ... oh, well, it got me through the game ... ;)
But is there really a big market? I don't know, but Lucasarts is not dumb. They do lots of market research and they know what sells. Dues Ex came out almost 4 years ago. If all people wanted was that kind of FPS, they would be everywhere. But they aren't.
I suspect that they find that FPS players want games that provide an excellent FPS experience, and don't care about other genres being in there. Likewise for RPG players. Sure there is some overlap, but what players don't like is a bunch of sub-par elements from a bunch of different genres. Jack of all trades and master of none, so to speak. I also think it is because developing a game like that is really hard - people will accept a 4 year or so cycle for a RPG. They will not for a FPS, unless there is a new engine attached. In which case you only have a year or so for the game itself.
A good FPS should have a plot you can describe in a paragraph. Most these days have 'single-sentence' plots (e.g. it's WWII, stupid, kill the Nazis!).
An RPG with a paragraph long story description will be trashed. You need a paragraph for just the *premise* of games like KotOR or BG2.
Look at JA. Most hardcore FPS players wanted excellent lightsaber combat that improved on JO. Many felt that they didn't get that. They don't care about how many pairs of pants you can choose from. They'd rather Raven get rid of the RPG stuff and focus on providing the best possible FPS lightsaber experience. But these games are not made for 'hardcore FPS gamers', are they? They are primarily for people who aspire to wield a lightsaber ... for whom Star Wars captures the imagination. They are also for FPS gamers, but the balance is tough to manage. As they say - be careful when you give the people what they want, because that isn't what they really want.
I believe as objectively as I can be that JA was treated unfairly in reviews - it was pitted against games that *still* aren't out (DoomIII, HL2, FarCry) and people seemed to hold a grudge about the fact that *they* saw it as an expansion yet LucasArts priced it and marketed it as a full game. Oh well.
I think that Lucasarts has found that licensing work out to genre specific companies to create genre specific games is how to make the most profit. I mean, who can argue with the success of KOTOR, JO, and so on? True. I never said that what I wanted was marketable ... it is just what I want.
Was Deus Ex even a best seller? Just ask NOLF - it doesn't matter how many critics love you if most people who actually play your game paid 9.99 for it at Walmart 2 years after release. (I saw NOLF2 for 4.99 at Toys 'R Us a few weeks ago).
Should the only motivating factor for making a game be having it be a top seller? No, but when you look at the rolls of 'former companies', it is littered with people who made something cool that no one wanted. Between the fact that some combination of Sims / Madden / WWII amounts for ~75% of game sales across all platforms, it is hard to push a new idea out there.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
I also think it is because developing a game like that is really hard - people will accept a 4 year or so cycle for a RPG. They will not for a FPS, unless there is a new engine attached. In which case you only have a year or so for the game itself.
Sorry to self-quote, but wanted to expand a bit.
Think about Deus Ex for a bit. You have a skill point system with experience and exploration experience bonuses and biomods to increase major 'feats'. That part is very RPG. The plot of the game is nowhere near the scope of KoTOR or BG2, but is pretty good for a FPS ... no, it is *rare* for a FPS.
But, when you were starting out - did you really know what to do with your skill points? Did you really care which side you took at the end? I didn't. I really wished I had allocated points differently early on. Towards the end, I did as much of all of the endings as I could just for the fun.
I gave up PC games for lent (OK, I took an extra day or so to finish JA on my Mac, but nothing since then ... and I still play a bit of GBA) - but before that I was playing Dungeon Siege on my Mac, and also picked up Return of the King for the GBA. RotK provides you an interface to assign stats to your character (Gandalf for me ;) ) and skills and such - but *no information* ... not much fun until you learn what does what (I'm back to Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance now). But Dungeon Siege, while the game itself is pretty boring and more linear than (I never thought I'd say this) SoFII, it also has a simple progression system - reward using skills by progressing skills.
I'm sure that the amount of FPS gamers who love KotOR is not lost on the suits at LucasArts (and other companies). It is just a question what they'll do about it ... I don't want to lose the pure fun of JK/JO/JA or of KoTOR by making a complex & cumbersome 'worst of both worlds' hybrid.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
I'm sure that the amount of FPS gamers who love KotOR is not lost on the suits at LucasArts (and other companies). It is just a question what they'll do about it ... I don't want to lose the pure fun of JK/JO/JA or of KoTOR by making a complex & cumbersome 'worst of both worlds' hybrid.
Mike
Very true. Combining features from two succesful implementations is a true art that I think few companies posess. I think LucasArts can do it though, this Star Wars not Star Trek after all. :)
Although honestly I would have loved Kotor with a FPS engine in it. I like manually controlling the methods of killing my foes rather than racking up commands and letting the computer handle the messy stuff. I want to handle the messy stuff.
I also like the fact that you could hop into a spaceship in Kotor and go places, although it was more of a conceptual thing. You didn't really pilot anything. Star Wars is a space opera, lets get some more space into the mix. In between chopping things with a lightsaber how about having to pilot a ship in some missions? Some could be combat, others you have to stealth your way into a location in your ship and then whip out yer glowing stick of death after you've landed yourself in the enemy base. Something like this would call on you to use a joystick to give you a feel for the different aspect of the game and help to mix things up and keep you on your toes. I'm surprised with Kyle Katarn's sleek looking ship that you never did more than get a ride in it.
Last but not least, how about a Toolset that would allow players to make their own modules, like in Never Winter Nights. With all the amazing work I've seen put into mods I can only think that the quality (and quantity) of player created modules would be immense. I'm sure the thought of a bunch of modules floating out there and Geoge Lucas not getting a penny would cause him to lose no end of sleep, but it would certainly keep the audience entertained until you released the next iteration of the game. NWN certainly seems to be enjoying some success with the concept.
I like the saber stuff and I like the gun only stuff too. They should have you play as two characters like in Resident Evil Zero. One character could be a jedi and the other one could be his or her mercenary sidekick, and you could switch between the two on the fly to accomplish goals. That would be sweet, IMO.
Originally posted by txa1265
Where'd you get the +3 Blaster? Cheats :D
Originally posted by txa1265
But these games are not made for 'hardcore FPS gamers', are they? They are primarily for people who aspire to wield a lightsaber ... for whom Star Wars captures the imagination. "Hardcore" is too strong a word I guess. I'm just saying that I get the impression that most players bought JA because of the FPS lightsabers and because it is Star Wars. Not because you can create your own character or can "RPG."
Originally posted by txa1265
I believe as objectively as I can be that JA was treated unfairly in reviews - it was pitted against games that *still* aren't out (DoomIII, HL2, FarCry) and people seemed to hold a grudge about the fact that *they* saw it as an expansion yet LucasArts priced it and marketed it as a full game. Oh well. I agree completely. It has its flaws, but I think JA is a lot better than people give it credit for. Maybe that's just us. :)
Originally posted by xirr2000
Although honestly I would have loved Kotor with a FPS engine in it. I like manually controlling the methods of killing my foes rather than racking up commands and letting the computer handle the messy stuff. I want to handle the messy stuff. I am the opposite. I like the fact that in KOTOR the game itself controls the "moves" I do after I have given the commands. The reason I like that is because I know that the fantastic look of the lightsaber battles would be very difficult to recreate with realtime player input (You couldn't change the camera angles for starters). Not only that, I like controlling all my party memebers, and that would simply be impossible with a FPS system.
Really, JO/JA does about as good a job as one can expect at this point in time for FPS lightsaber combat. The KOTOR fights look very cinematic and convincing, and I don't want to give that up just so I can mash some buttons. When I want to mash some buttons, I play JA. Again, both games provide different things, and thus I like each for different reasons. I bet if they had tried to add JA combat to KOTOR, in the end the resulting game would be less satisfying that KOTOR is now.
Originally posted by xirr2000
I also like the fact that you could hop into a spaceship in Kotor and go places, although it was more of a conceptual thing. You didn't really pilot anything. Star Wars is a space opera, lets get some more space into the mix. In between chopping things with a lightsaber how about having to pilot a ship in some missions? Right now when tehy try to do this you end up with games like Clone Wars. It has levels where you drive vehicles and use your lightsaber. But the lightsaber fighting is miles behind JO and the vehicle stuff is miles behind something like Rogue Squadron or the X-Wing series. I haven't played the whole game, but wouldn't people agree that Clone Wars isn't as good as those other games? To me, that is a perfect example of what happens when you try and cover a lot of genres in one game.
Originally posted by Prime
Right now when tehy try to do this you end up with games like Clone Wars. It has levels where you drive vehicles and use your lightsaber. But the lightsaber fighting is miles behind JO and the vehicle stuff is miles behind something like Rogue Squadron or the X-Wing series. I haven't played the whole game, but wouldn't people agree that Clone Wars isn't as good as those other games? To me, that is a perfect example of what happens when you try and cover a lot of genres in one game.
I agree, Clone Wars was an awful, awful, awful game. It pretty much sucked at everything, rocked at nothing. But I'd like to think someone, somewhere is up to the challenge of raising the bar. I'm not saying I'd want it to turn into a space flight sim or anything, but it would be cool to be able to fly yourself to your next mission. Take off, put in your destination, hit the hyperdrive and maybe to an arcade type landing and see some scenery along the way. I've always loved the visuals and sound with Star Wars and something like this would give some eye candy in between the fights. Of course there would be an option to skip this type of thing if you are in a hurry, but it would also be a nice touch. If they wanted to go extreme with it you could even have a mission where you have to scan planets and map areas. Of course you could land on these planets and explore further, with chances of running into random encounters or even NPCs for a side mission.
I keep thinking back to the days of starflight and starflight 2 and the fun it was to explore. That game really gave an impression of a large galaxy and a sense of adventure. Little things like clever starmaps and dialogue here and there made them very enjoyable. I can't help but think how cool it would be to incorporate something like that into something like the JK series.
Also, I would prefer more puzzles in the next one. JKA was a little skimpy on cool ways to use the force without killing someone. And the puzzles they did have were pretty simple, bordering on the insanely obvious in some cases. Or at least if you have to focus on chopping enemies, allow there to be more cool ways to do it with clever uses of your powers.
Don't get me wrong, a big plus of the game in my book is wading through masses of stormtroopers and watching the parts fly. It never seems to get old for some reason :) But I would like to see more. It's been awhile since a game really blew me away, and I think the next one that does could easily be one based on the JK design. Kotor was almost there, but I felt that watching my toon fight was not as fun me doing the bobbing and weaving, even if it didn't quite look as choreographed as a movie fight :)
Originally posted by txa1265
Think about Deus Ex for a bit. You have a skill point system with experience and exploration experience bonuses and biomods to increase major 'feats'. That part is very RPG. The plot of the game is nowhere near the scope of KoTOR or BG2, but is pretty good for a FPS ... no, it is *rare* for a FPS.
Deus Ex was a game far ahead of its time. It was the first FPS with a story that actually meant a damn, and wasn't linear either.
The only problem it had was advertising. Ion Storm had always been in a ****hole with that dreaded game we won't mention here (hint, begins with a D).
Anyways, that's the problem with the Dark Forces series, besides my constant rants on developing a better melee combat system and actual balance for all game types. Sure, you can go either Light or Dark side. Big whoop. There's only one way to solve your problems: light up your saber and open a can of whoopass. That gets boring after a while.
After playing the origonal Deus Ex in preparation for Invisible War (which sucked, by the way), I was essentially spoiled when I tried playing Jedi Academy again. Deus Ex had a system of customization that worked depending on your playstyle, and your choices matter. Sure, it might pick up that "RPG" element, but if it invokes more creativity in your selection in how you're going to get yourself out of a jam, do it.
And just for the record, Deus Ex DMs are slaughterfests. This is the obligatory FU fanboi statement.
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Deus Ex was a game far ahead of its time. It was the first FPS with a story that actually meant a damn, and wasn't linear either.
The only problem it had was advertising. Ion Storm had always been in a ****hole with that dreaded game we won't mention here (hint, begins with a D).
Anyways, that's the problem with the Dark Forces series, besides my constant rants on developing a better melee combat system and actual balance for all game types. Sure, you can go either Light or Dark side. Big whoop. There's only one way to solve your problems: light up your saber and open a can of whoopass. That gets boring after a while.
After playing the origonal Deus Ex in preparation for Invisible War (which sucked, by the way), I was essentially spoiled when I tried playing Jedi Academy again. Deus Ex had a system of customization that worked depending on your playstyle, and your choices matter. Sure, it might pick up that "RPG" element, but if it invokes more creativity in your selection in how you're going to get yourself out of a jam, do it.
And just for the record, Deus Ex DMs are slaughterfests. This is the obligatory FU fanboi statement.
I'm fairly certain that both the Theif and System Shock series were out before Deus Ex, and both accomplished similar things. Deus Ex simply expanded on, and refined the idea. Credit where credit is due.
I am all for keeping the Jedi Knight series firmly routed in the FPS genre, however adding more elements of customization and experience, which should not be considered 'RPG' elements unless you think every sidescroller should be Mario, every FPS should be DOOM, and that nothing new should be tried in already established game genres. Heck, there's already many different kinds of RPGs out there, so different in execution it is stretching it to place them in the same category.
Adding background characters such as helpless bystanders, informants, and whatnot wouldn't really turn JK into an RPG, but would breath more life into the environments, and open up many new ways for the game to progress, while keeping the FPS action intact. It would, in my opinion, even add to the challenege in some levels as you try to kill the bd guys, while avoiding the civilians.
Plus, a story on top of an FPS is merely frosting on the cake. The ideal is to havea game that rewards you for your efforts with a nifty storyline, but if that story were to be removed, then the action by itself would still carry the game. I mean, do FPS fans really hate it so much if an excellent FPS game happens to have an excellent story along with it? I wouldn't think so, so long as the story elements didn't hamper the FPS goodness.
I still maintain that the customibility of JA is a good thing, and expanding on that would make the game even better. Adding experience elements much like Deus Ex or System Shock would also add more meat to the gameplay, but wouldn't at all turn it from an FPS into an RPG.
Then again, you want to get semantic? All games are RPGs. Role Playing Games. Any game where you take some sort of role. In the JK series, you take the role of a Jedi fighting the evil Empire. That meets all of the requirements for an RPG. Pac-Man, you take the role of..well..Pac-Man, avoiding ghosts in his little maze world.
Some degree of roleplaying is present in all games. Things like experience points, skill levels, turn based battles, and stories are all elements that could be added to any genre of game without making it an RPG or otherwise. A first person view is not something found only in FPS games. In fact, it was found in many RPG videogames before even Wolfenstein 3D. Metroid uses a first person view, but isn't a shooter anymore than the original Metroid for the NES was.
Of course, to be realistic, there is a group of genres bunched together and labeled as 'RPG' games. Final Fantasy, KotOR, Betrayal at Krondor, and I agree with those of you who say that the JK series should not become those games.
I apologize for what may seem as something of a tangent from the topic at hand, but it seems important to the conversation as there appears to be a few people that do want a Star Wars RPG along those lines, but with the battles and movement handled like it is in the JK series. Then there seems to be another couple people that thinks that the JK series should steer far away from anything elements that are even associated, no matter how loosly, with RPG games, despite the fact that they are already present in the series and have been since Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight. Such elements have already been put to use in games that no one in their right mind would consider to be in the same genre as Final Fantasy, or anything like that.
I just had an interesting idea...wouldn't it be cool if in the next JK game the main boss was a jedi with 4-arms wielding 4 sabers?
lol:p
Well, it was just a thought...I was thinking about what a great boss Maw was, because he was different from any other jedi because he had no legs & could fly around - it gave him a totally distinct fighting style that's different from what you'd expect from a jedi with legs...I just thought a boss that is totally distinctive in a non-humanoid sort of way would be cool.
I guess a 4-armed jedi would still be a humanoid, but fighting tactics would be totally different...
ok, ok...I'll shut up now...:)
Originally posted by rccar328
I just had an interesting idea...wouldn't it be cool if in the next JK game the main boss was a jedi with 4-arms wielding 4 sabers?
-Spoiler?-
We have Ep III for things with more than two arms...
yea, i think we should just let george keep coming up with bad ideas, and the rest of us can take a break :p