One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU, yes they had the Jedi Academy, but some things were wrong, i.e
Jedi Knight was set straight after RotJ
JO +9 Years
Therefore JO is set 9-10 years after RotJ
1) Mon lost her position as Chief of State during the events of Jedi Academy Trilogy, which was SEVEN years after RotJ.
Mon Mothma was still the leader of the New Republic in JO.
2) Lando lost control of cloud city during ESB, he had a number of business ventures after but he did not own cloud city at the time.
They make it quite clear in JO that Lando owns cloud city.
Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke.
EDIT: Typos
They never said that he was...
ahem
Who said that they have to follow EU stuff completly?
Lets say I make up a story for SW, lets say in that story 1 year after the destruction of the second death star Luke is killed in an accident... ops, now Raven should of course go after my little story and form their games after it... right? :rolleyes: And yes that IS EU.
The films is the only thing you have to stick to in a Star Wars game.
And Kyle Katarn is the main character of Dark Forces (best game of the series in my opinion), Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (wich I owned it :|) and Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast..
Well i disagree about the films being the only things u have to stick to as i'm a huge EU fan and wouldn't be into star wars half as much if they din't have it.
Besides they've followed most of the other EU stuff, Yavin, Mara Jade, Ysaslmari sp? so why not use other stuff and make it true to the EU.
Also, Lucas regards the EU community as those who just want to cash in on the Star Wars movies, and the stories should be taken with a grain of salt.
So don't go off on a group of people about the EU expecting it to be 100% right, when in fact that it is a story not told by the creator, but by others who only have the license and do not have the eagle's eye over their presence.
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU...I'll try not to turn this thread into a flame war. First of all, to a large percentage of Star Wars fans, the EU books are not canon. There are several reasons of this, like all the continutity errors between books written by different authors. But the biggest reason I have heard, and the reason I don't think they are canon, is that they are not written by George Lucas, the creator. He has no input on the stories, and only dictates what topics can't be covered. The books do not reflect George Lucas's view of what happens in the post-ROTJ timeframe.
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke. First of all, there are graphic novels detailing events involving Kyle, and he is mentioned in the NJO books. He is also listed in the Essential Guide to Characters. He is just as official as any other none movie Star Wars character.
Who said Mon Mothma was the leader of the new republic in JO? I don't think the great leader will brief Kyle and Jan on missions :rolleyes:
Who said Lando owned Bespin?? C'mon don't take this EU too serious, I never read any SW books and those extra stories aren't really official...
Well, I see any made up SW story as some sort of EU... maybe unoficial EU.. And I think alot of this EU stuff seems to be big crap... I've never read any EU except for two old comics (wich was total crap) but most of it seems to be bad IMO.
Why they should only stick to the movies and not EU? Well, because EU, is IMO one persons thoughts (just as the movies are Georce Lucas thoughts) of what happens in the SW universe and should therefore not be taken serious.
If theres some book/novell/comic/anything claiming something happened at this or that particular time (like the empire rises again and the new republic falls) I'm almost sure (though, not 100% sure) it would be perfectly acceptable if someone else claimed that something else happened at that exact time (something like ..and they lived happily ever after :p).
JO had some things from other EU (apparently), but also had some other stuff (that yes, apparently argues with other EU).
Well i'm glad everyone agrees with me, for a minute there i was worried about posting this message in case i started an EU vs Films debate, lucky that didn't happen ;)
Guess we're all entitled to our opinion it just bugs me a bit, that's all.
Ah yes, the EU. If we REALLY want to get on who's right, who doesn't follow what, just look at the EU itself. Full of continuity errors, not to mention the fact that Luke apparently changes personalities as he goes through the books. And believe me, the changes aren't 'natural', just the result of so many authors writing about him.
Not to mention that in the NJO books, it's practically suggested that the dark side isn't real. Not to mention the fact that the EU basically says that any person can escape the torments of the dark side. Kyp Durron does it (hogwash), Luke Skywalker turns on PURPOSE, and then returns (hogwash), and then some of those NJO characters do it too I think (hogwash). This completely diminishes Darth Vader's character, since he doesn't turn until he's spent the next 30 years destroying the galaxy, beating up his own son, and then watching the Emperor torture him, not to mention the numerous times he just choked someone because they made a small mistake.
The more Raven steers clear of the EU, the better we are for it. As far as I am concerned the EU is more machine now than good story. Twisted and evil. Hehe. Just an opinion. :fett:
Dude....do you have any clue just HOW MUCH EU and movies conflict? Don't get me wrong, I love the EU, but IF we use it as canon, then both the geonosians and bevel lemisk (sp) invented the death star, 10 or more years apart. In addition, lightsabers can and can't be turned on in the water. Furthermore, C-3PO was built by both a factory and by Anakin Skywalker. There is NO WAY you can make any story that doesn't somehow conflict with some part of the EU or the movies. It never, btw, says Lando owns Cloud City. In where does it call Mon Mothma "Chief of State"? maybe she was just used to brief them because....who knows why.
well JO is based on the sw universe but doesnt have to be according to EU you know. EU is merely fan fiction which has been taken very serious be numerious ppl. i really cant see how you can you can look at the movies and EU and suggest they are or should be the same thing.
I've only read a few EU novels... such as the ones written by Timothy Zhan and actually thought they were pretty well done an had a good sense of what fit in Star Wars, and what didn't. I especially liked the Hand of Thrawn books. Still; there were some things I didn't like... and didn't feel fitted in with Star Wars, such as the Ysalmira (sorry, I can't possibly remember how to spell it :)), the jedi cryptonite stuff (turns lightsabers off???), the cloned Jedi C'boath, ect ect. (Seriously though, why would that rock stuff that turns lightsabers off not turn blasters off when fired at it? Both have their lasers as an emitted field of energy, not part of the mechanics itself.)
I also read 3 or 4 of the NJO books. I thought the first one was pretty bad. The other ones I read were decent, one or two of the others were alittle better. But overall it seemed like it lost all sense of Star Wars, and what made it fun. It also seemed to have lost the established set of rules that a Star Wars story follows.
Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... :) Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it?
As has been pointed out before, Kyle Katarn is a part of the EU continuity, and features in at least three novels (Soldier for the Empire, Rebel Agent, Jedi Knight) plus has a section in the New Essential Guide to Characters (though they make a mistake.. saying he spared Sariss's life... he didn't, at least not on the Light Path of JK, and in the novel, same deal... she's dead).
Kyle may seem powerful, but so are many of the Jedi in the EU. Since DF series are games, they have to have some fun factor, if they were perfectly realistic, he probably wouldn't be a jedi or he'd be a super weak one. Why not let players live their dreams of being a super jedi?
Anyway, Lightsabers should work in water btw... that bugged me. That scene in Episode I was never filmed, and AOTC contradicts it (Obi's saber gets soaked many times, but still works fine).
It wasn't an NJO book. Luke INTENTIONALLY turns in the earlier EU books, I forget which one it was. Dark Empire, whatever. Basically, Palpatine isn't dead (hogwash), because he makes a thousand billion clones of himself. They are all exact copies, but have no spirit until Palpatine uses the Force to transfer himself over to the bodies (hogwash).
Luke decides to experiment with the dark side for some reason, see what it does, how his father suffers from it, but basically he joins the emperor (!!!?!?).
To make a sad story short, Luke comes back, he and Leia defeat Emperor Palpatine, who is now capable of making 'Force Storms' with his hatred. Then, he can use this stuff to destroy whole cities, etc (more hogwash).
I too enjoy it when people make their own continuing stories on Star Wars. I don't mind the idea of it, it's just that the stuff that gets sold in the bookstore has been complete junk. The authors take a simple premise of Star Wars and transform it. I know we should see new stuff in the novels, but they take the 'new' too far for my tastes. Basically, when I see Star Wars films, both trilogy and prequels, I can't even begin to see a semblance of it in the EU.
Thrawn was an excellent character to create, but I felt that Zahn's plot devices were a little weak. We all knew that since Luke Skywalker was the only jedi around, and a particularly talented one given that he trained himself to speed in a time span of only a few years, that he'd be pretty unstoppable in a lot of one on one, or group on one situations. But I also feel Zahn could have come up with something better to give Luke a challenge other than create just a slew of Deux ex machina for Thrawn to use. "Oh no, Luke can't use his force powers because of a squatting lizard!" or "oh no, now Luke's lightsaber is completely inactive... because of a rock!" I'd prefer if they just gave him something to fight, like impossible odds (send a big army after him, or better, a whole troop of bounty hunters), scenarios where he almost has to choose who gets saved and who doesn't. But it's not my story. Oh well.
The EU is fun, I guess, but then there's anal rententive people like myself who can't stand it when a fanfiction or whatever seems to lose the spirit of the original, or takes away from it too much.
When you think about it, it took Kyle many many years to become a powerful Jedi.
In actuality, his power in the first game was due in large part to his proximity to the Jedi spirits in the Valley (his powers greatly diminished after he left and time passed). Note how much less powerful he is in MotS (and again, his power grows as he gets close to the Dark Side power of the Sith temple).
His "true" powerlevel through training is shown in JK2 single player. In fact, he does use the Valley to "restart" his connection to the Force after he's "shut it off" in his mind for so long (for fear of falling to the dark side).
The part about having a force "source" is not without precedent in the EU. Note that Mara Jade was powerful until the Emperor died... he was giving her force energy.
The Clone Emperor gave his "hands" powers in the Dark Empire comics (though those guys were incompetent, heh).
The spirit of Exar Kun gave Kyp Durron powers (and Gantoris before him) of the Dark Side to enhance his low level powers in the Jedi Academy trilogy.
A group of low level Jedi combined their powers to do a great feat in Darksaber as well.
So it fits.
I hope there will be a secret level where you get to play as Kyle in JA.. with his decent power levels. After all, there's no excuse why he won't be powerful this time around, on his own steam.
Why is this even being discussed?
All star wars games are part of and fit with the EU. There are a dozen small EU tip offs in JKII: JO. Jerec and his merry band and Moff Moc from DF are in the New Esential Guide to Characters. And there's nothing IN the games that contradict any previous EU material.
Grife's sake, give these guys some credit. They actually managed to work Whaladons into the story. :)
Now obviously I'm not one of LucasFilm's crack copyright lawyers or anything like that, but this is how I understand it:
The films (Episodes 1-6) in their "finished form" (ie: special editions, dvd editions, etc) are the highest form of canon, or the "pure canon" of Star Wars.
Right under them are the official screenplays, novelisations, and radio dramas (in that order).
Everything else is considered "official" that is.. stuff that's officially liscensed through LucasFilm or one of its subsidiary companies to bear the right to carry the Star Wars logo and characters.
This constitutes the "EU" (Expanded Universe) which has characters and stories that spin out of Lucas's original works. It includes the other novels, comics, and games.
The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars.
Now the lower official cannot contradict the higher official and the higher official cannot contradict canon.
That's not to say there aren't apparent contradictions between the pure canon (say between the prequels and the original films) but that's about as good as you can get.
Usually the EU has tried to follow the canon, but its been tripped up by the Special Editions and the Prequels. I suppose they're trying to catch up. But so long as LucasFilm lets them, JKA can fall in line with the history just as the others do. So long as it doesn't contradict the films in its story line, it'll fit, somehow.
Though again, there are always exceptions (the RPG counts as a game btw) such as the "Infinities" which "didn't happen" but "could have happened" had the movies turned out differently.
In the official continuity, Kyle did do stuff like he did in the games... maybe not exactly scene for scene, but pretty much. Consult the novels for the official word...
About the only really glaring problem I saw with anyting in the DF series was the Noghri in Mysteries of the Sith...
But you can blame that on the guys who made the Zahn thrawn trilogy based Comic books. The artwork they used (Noghri as big hulking blue gorilla-type monsters) is straight out of those graphic novels (which were interpretations of the EU books).
Other than that, there's a few minor quibbles with the JK2 weapons (the Mark inquisitor doesn't look like a remote, even though it does in JK2; the disruptor has a longer barrel in the game; the Bryar pistol suddenly shoots gold bolts instead of red though it could have been Kyle modified it heavily between MotS and JK2; Trip Mines look just like Laser Traps... for these and other examples see the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, which is based on the movies and earlier EU works).
Note also that the appearance of Mara Jade has changed (since she's not in the movies) over the course of the various adventures she's been in.
Lots of contradictions exist in the EU, so one or two things here and there shouldn't be a big issue.
To answer your question.... "fan fiction" (ie: not liscensed through Lucas or his various companies) is NON-Official and NON-Canon... ie: means nothing in the overall continuity.
Even the lowest official video game with the Star Wars logo on it (copyrighted) is higher officially than the best written fan story or fan film I can post on the internet.
So something like "Troops" or "Balance of the Force" wouldn't be official either.
Dude, do you own research. Lando got cloud city back, one of the Young Jedi Knights books takes place on cloud city.
The official SW games are the lowest form of official in the overall scheme of things. The characters, stories, and concepts (but not actual gameplay for example, or certain game mechanics) are part of Star Wars.
I want to hammer on this one very carefully, because I believe that some of the games themselves have the ability to trump the EU novels. LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.
As to where game scriptwriters and voice actors have to get things right to please "he who's nose we are not worthy to pick" (wait, that is Miyamoto's title... damn), the writers of these novles don't have to please Lucas so much as their editors and publisher.
So basically, games such as JKII are the card that is played against some of the EU contradiction.
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas. Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on. All he does is specify what the limits are, like who you can't kill, and so on. He does not proofread or edit stories. They are the creation of the authors, not Lucas. Lucasarts is responsible for making sure that stories fit reasonably into the timeline.
Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Anyways, my question is; when is Kyle Katarn mentioned in the NJO, and in what context? I always thought he was a game character only, so I'm curious to see what he did in the book. Also, Luke INENTIONALLY goes to the Dark side and comes back like nothing in the NJO? That's pretty stupid if you ask me... Can anyone tell me the situation, and why he does it? I'm not sure what book(s) he is mentioned, as I haven't read them, but he is in there. Nothing major I think, just things like, "most people were at the meeting, but Kyle Katarn was not". Just mentioned in passing in a few places.
As for Luke going to the Dark Side, I believe that was in the Dark Empire comic series. This is one of the big issues I have with EU authors. As we all know from the movies, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Vader was the special case, which is why he is the chosen one. In the EU, everyone and their dog gets corrupted by the dark side and they always turn back. Are there any EU characters that don't?.
And as far as Mon Mothma is concerned, her is here bio from the official Jedi Outcast site at Lucasarts:
After the fall of the Empire, Mon Mothma was chosen to serve as the Chief of State for the newly created New Republic government. She served valiantly in the difficult first years of the New Republic, through assassination attempts, uprisings from the Imperial Remnant, and even the rebirth of the Emperor. Later, Mon Mothma stepped down and presented the title of Chief of State to Leia Organa Solo. Mon Mothma still remains heavily involved in government, working closely with New Republic Intelligence to help maintain peace and keep tabs on the movements of the Imperial Remnant. Another side bonus to her work with the NRI is that she continues to interact with her "favorite" agent, Kyle Katarn.
"Canon of the EU" ... rofl.
Hmm, I thought I recalled hearing something about a cloned Emporer... But the way you guys make it sound the EU totally nullified everything that happened in RotJ by having Luke go to the darkside... Even having the "cloned Emporer" seduce him... It sounds like someone just wanted to rewrite RotJ to me!
Just out of curiousity, but does Kyle every get any dialouge in any NJO books?
Originally posted by Dragonlancer
Dude, do you own research. Lando got cloud city back, one of the Young Jedi Knights books takes place on cloud city.
keep in mind, though, that the young jedi knights series takes place 23+ years after the battle of yavin.
back to the original topic comment,
just seeying how long these arguments can go on proves that you cant get everything perfect and that raven did the best they could (and thats good enough for me :D)
Originally posted by Boba Rhett
"Canon of the EU" ... rofl. Indeed :)
Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Hmm, I thought I recalled hearing something about a cloned Emporer... But the way you guys make it sound the EU totally nullified everything that happened in RotJ by having Luke go to the darkside... Even having the "cloned Emporer" seduce him... It sounds like someone just wanted to rewrite RotJ to me!
And bring back the Emperor negating Vader's sacrifice...and having many other characters go to the Dark Side and come back, negating what is explained in the movies...and saying that there is no Light or Dark Side, negating what is explained in the movies...and...well, I digress :)
Originally posted by Silent_Thunder
Just out of curiousity, but does Kyle every get any dialouge in any NJO books? I haven't read them, but from what I understand, no he does not. But rest assured, he would be b**ch slapping Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, and all the other NJO Jedi crybabies for all their whining :ball: :)
Originally posted by Iblis Reborn
back to the original topic comment,
just seeying how long these arguments can go on proves that you cant get everything perfect and that raven did the best they could (and thats good enough for me )Frankly, I think that the JO and the Dark Forces series in general has some of the better EU storylines. It seem much more like Star Wars to me. I agree that Raven has done a great job.
Oh dear....
Okay - who said the...... c word then? :p
And Kyle doesnt say anything, but he was mentioned in the latest NJO book. First time ever outside of the DF series!
Keep in mind the Dark Forces series of BOOKS are considered an official part of the Star Wars EU continuity, so that in addition to the games...
I want to hammer on this one very carefully, because I believe that some of the games themselves have the ability to trump the EU novels. LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.
Key word being STORY here, not gameplay fudgings to make it more fun/balanced/interesting. As games the DF series works well, but most of the stuff in it would make a horribly monotonous movie/book. That is why the DF books are different in places and leave out most of the hack-hacking and all that. I agree that I'd rather play JK/2 than read some of the EU novels, but that's another story...
The level of Lucas's intervention with each of the EU stories is unknown, but suffice to say it probably has more to do with money than anything else. Considering the level of contradiction between EU sources and canon sources, etc, it's probably a very minimalistic approach and probably changes over time.
The point being that the prequels have run roughshod over much of the EU. That leaves the EU authors to either keep on as if nothing ever happened and utter some excuse to explain it away, or else to drop what they were doing and rewrite their own history.
As Bob Brown's star wars website points out, a lot of the "brain bugs" (contradictions and assumptions that pop up following narrow interpretations of Star Wars canon) that occur in SW come from the RPG (a game, after all is said and done).
The various teams doing the DF games seem to have a handle on providing a healthy mix of Canon and EU content into a decent gameplay framework (with only a few minor lapses, like the "lightsaber fizzle out in water" thing in JK2).
this may be totally wrong, but i remember hearing somewhere that they basically got a load of authors together and mapped out the very rough outline of the EU right at the start... then george approved it.
From then on all the authors have pretty much just had to fit within this agreed loose framework.
This is why most of it fits together, but there are a few specific instances where it all falls apart.
I have to agree that the plots to DF, JK and MotS are pretty much as good as any in the EU. THey may not be as deep (due to gameplay and technological restraints) but they "feel" a lot more starwars than most of the EU novels that I have read. Same goes for Tie-fighter.
90% of the EU novels were terrible... always inventing new superweapons and new force baddies/powers. And don't get me started on that whole Vong "super alien species invades" plotline that was ripped from Independance day and every othe scifi film ever.
THe 5 Zahn books were about the only ones that felt "star wars", and thrawn is possibly the best EU character ever. I thought the Ysalimari and the cortosis seemed to work quite well, (how can you create feedback in a blaster when the blast has left the barrel???)(i always assumed it was some form of cortosis alloy they used in Mandalorian armour... but i think they have changed that as well). The only problem i had was that I felt sorry for thrawn, he had all these amazing plans, and then by absolute cooincidence every time one was about to happen it would be thwarted by a 2,000,000 to one fluke appearance of Luke or Han or Lando in exactly the right place at the right time. :mad:
PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2.
Originally posted by toms
I have to agree that the plots to DF, JK and MotS are pretty much as good as any in the EU. THey may not be as deep (due to gameplay and technological restraints) but they "feel" a lot more starwars than most of the EU novels that I have read. Same goes for Tie-fighter.Ah, Tie Fighter! An excellent game to be sure, and a great story. Loved the Inner Circle. Now that was a game that felt like Star Wars.
Originally posted by toms
90% of the EU novels were terrible... always inventing new superweapons and new force baddies/powers. And don't get me started on that whole Vong "super alien species invades" plotline that was ripped from Independance day and every othe scifi film ever. Vong indeed. That is what has kept me from reading the NJO. The good thing about the games like the JK series and Tie Fighter is that they don't try to alter or add things to the Star Wars myth. They work within it. Dark Forces didn't try to change the story of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans, but simple give more detail. In Tie Fighter, the Inner Circle isn't mentioned in the movies, but it certain is possible that is was there. Most of the EU novels seem to try and alter things that we know from the movies.
Originally posted by toms
PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2. I don't get too hung up on continuity, mainly because I don't have an indepth knowledge of it. And since neither the games nor the books come from the brain of Lucas, whoes to say which storyline false?
PS/ don't get too hung up on EU continuity... i always liked the way they put mara jade in MotS, but loads of picky fanboys kept complaining it didn't quite fit the timeline... which is probably why they ignored it in JK2.
They didn't "ignore" it in JK2. I remember this sort of thing happened when MotS came out, people started speculating that Jan died because she wasn't in it, etc.
The whole thing with Kyle giving up the Force and hanging up his saber, for fear of the Dark Side doesn't mean a whole lot if you just go straight from JK to JK2. MotS tells WHY he's so afraid of falling.
Also notice how it says he "goes back" to be with Jan, as if they were apart for awhile (and in MotS, they are). So MotS actually fits perfectly, unless for some reason you think the other EU stuff contradicts it.
I don't think any conscious decision was made on the part of the JK2 developers to "ignore" MotS at all.
About the only conflicting point within the games is the fact that he gave a blue lightsaber to Luke. But apparently they did that under pressure from LucasFilm (main characters in single player having to follow the "Good guys have blue/green sabers/bad guys have red" rule from the movies), not because it had any significance in the storyline (and an excuse to give you another saber color you hadn't had before). Notice how they also made your saber "short out" in water (a deleted screenplay scene from TPM, but contradicted by AOTC, and other stuff in the EU like Splinter of the Mind's Eye and JK/MotS themselves) in JK2. That would make absolutely no sense in the context of the other games, so I'm assuming they did it because of Lucasfilm or an implied need to adhere more strictly to the films, as a company using a liscensed property.
"Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on."
Ah of course! That would explain his role in Dark Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, the Clone War cartoon, Bounty Hunter, and approving the New Jedi Order for release!
Yup, you sure are right.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
Besides they've followed most of the other EU stuff, Yavin, Mara Jade, Ysaslmari sp? so why not use other stuff and make it true to the EU.
It was convenient for them. Just because they happen to use those characters/objects in the game doesn't mean they automatically take on the baggage of the convoluted EU (which often contradicts itself). I enjoy the EU books and such as much as the next guy, but we don't have to be totally fanatical about it. The movies are cannon, thats it. No one has to follow what has been done in the EU -- if they do its out of courtesy. So if Raven decides to do something that doesnt conform to the EU, then they're just not being polite -- it has nothing to do with right or wrong.
Originally posted by Anakin1607
"Uh, Mr. Lucas has nothing to do with the storylines of games, books, comics, and so on."
Ah of course! That would explain his role in Dark Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, the Clone War cartoon, Bounty Hunter, and approving the New Jedi Order for release!
Yup, you sure are right.
:rolleyes: Okay, I'm talking storylines here. And here is what I was responding too:
Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games, and guess who has to examine the story line down to the tee? George Lucas.
Lucas is not involved in coming up with or editing the stories. He only puts limits on what you can touch. He is only concerned with the movies. Lucas Licensing is what is involved with the editing, etc. Not Lucas.
From an interview with Shelly Shapiro on starwars.com about coming up with NJO:
Shapiro, together with the editorial team at Lucas Licensing, helps steer the direction of adult Star Wars fiction told in the hardcover and paperback books set in various eras of Star Wars history...
...Those of us in on the initial planning sessions--representatives of Lucas Licensing, Del Rey, and some authors--had our individual ideas of who should be the sacrificial lamb...
How involved was George Lucas in the details of planning and plotting the various books, and in the choice of writers? How much independence do the writers have . . . and how much do you have as editor?
...For example, as I mentioned earlier, we were told we could not kill off certain characters. We originally intended the enemy to be dark Force-users; we were told they had to be non-Force users. We had a certain plan in mind for one of the characters; we were told to use a different character for this particular plan. That was about the extent of George's involvement -- unless there was more going on behind the scenes than I was aware of. The writers have all been chosen by mutual consent: some of them were suggested by me and approved by the folks at Lucas Licensing. Others were suggested by Lucas Licensing and subsequently approved by me.
We really work as a team. That said, the final say always lies with Lucas Licensing. The writers have a lot of independence in coming up with a story, provided they work in the plot points necessary to keep the overall story arc moving along. I have a lot of independence as editor: Lucas Licensing doesn't even see an outline or a manuscript until the author and I feel pretty confident that it's ready to be looked at for approval. If we disagree, we discuss the issue -- even argue it occasionally -- until we come to some resolution. But in the end, we make whatever changes Lucas Licensing requires. It's their intellectual property (well, it's George's, but it's their job to protect that for him), and they have every right to control its destiny.
Lucas Licensing is responsible for the books, games, etc. and how they fit into SW. Lucas does not get very involved with the non-movie parts of SW.
From an interview with Zachary Sotolongo:
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, they do intrude in between the movies. [b]I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
Cheers.
Who cares about the EU? Well, obviously a lot of people - but still, half of the EU seems to contradict the other half - from my understanding anyway.
I only take the Star Wars movies seriously - anything else is merely an after thought. As long as it makes a good game, I'm perfectly happy...
I don't mind the EU, but I only care about faithfulness to the movies.
I guess I'm mostly concerned with "storyline continuity" when it comes to the games, and the games only need be faithful to the movies in terms of story-characters.
The games make liberal use of the EU, so if they are loosely faithful to the EU literature, that's fine too.
The only real drawback to if it "breaks" with anything in the EU (and not just because of the movies) then EU fanboys denigrate the game and dismiss it, which as a DF series fan kind of irks me, but oh well.... ; )
As long as they tell a good story, and its fun and reasonably balanaced in gameplay, and has some cool tricks, whatever they do is fine by me.
Originally posted by Kurgan
I guess I'm mostly concerned with "storyline continuity" when it comes to the games, and the games only need be faithful to the movies in terms of story-characters.
The games make liberal use of the EU, so if they are loosely faithful to the EU literature, that's fine too. This is my view as well. Faithfulness to the movies is paramount, and to the EU secondary.
While I agree that faithfulness to the movies is most important, imagine how empty the Star Wars universe would be without the EU.
With just a handful of main characters to work from and around, the DF/JK series would require an awful lot more conceptual work, and with all due respect to Raven, computer games' track records show that completely independent-- or almost so, in this hypothesis--storylines are not the industry's forte.
On top of that, some of the EU stuff is actually really good material, especially the work of Zahn and Stackpole.
Basically, my point is: They're using the Jedi Academy, which is completely EU. But Katarn is never, as far as I know, mentioned as being a teacher there, so they're not being completely faithful to what's been writtena bout the Academy.
So far.
Look at it this way, and my post will have done its job.
They're adding to the EU, rather than trying to work around it.
If games were considered canon above EU then the following would be true.
Ace Azzameen flew the Millenium Falcon, thus destroying the death star. (XWA)
Anakin took part in pod racing tournaments accross the galaxy as a kid. (SW Racer)
The jedi let Anakin have some time off of his Jedi studies to enter the pod racing again. (SW Racer Revenge)
Everything that happened after Yavin didn't exist as u can make the war turn the way u make it. (Rebellion)
I could go on but i won't.
Originally posted by Wavey Davey
One of the things that really annoyed me about JO was that it did not follow the canon of the EU, yes they had the Jedi Academy, but some things were wrong, i.e
Jedi Knight was set straight after RotJ
JO +9 Years
Therefore JO is set 9-10 years after RotJ
1) Mon lost her position as Chief of State during the events of Jedi Academy Trilogy, which was SEVEN years after RotJ.
Mon Mothma was still the leader of the New Republic in JO.
2) Lando lost control of cloud city during ESB, he had a number of business ventures after but he did not own cloud city at the time.
They make it quite clear in JO that Lando owns cloud city.
Can't think of any other right now, excpet for the fact that who the hell is kyle katarn he isn't in any of the novels yet he's made out to be more powerful than Luke.
EDIT: Typos
1. No one said she was Chief of State in JO. She just appeared and told them their mission. She could have any position.
2. They do not make it clear that Lando owns Cloud City.
3. Raven did not write the story. You get your facts straight on who does what development in the game before you post this nonsense.
Originally posted by HitMan
While I agree that faithfulness to the movies is most important, imagine how empty the Star Wars universe would be without the EU.True enough, but we would, no doubt, have a Star Wars universe with a lot fewer continuity errors and inconsistencies. The Prequals have made much of the older EU obselete.
Originally posted by HitMan
On top of that, some of the EU stuff is actually really good material, especially the work of Zahn and Stackpole. The key word there is some. I liked the Zahn trilogy, but a lot of the other stuff I've read I thought was poor. Just opinions though. But because I thought a lot of the EU is sub-par, I don't have much problem with a few tweeks in the JK series. Like I've said before, I feel that the JK series has had a Star Wars feel that is better than much of the EU.
Originally posted by HitMan
Basically, my point is: They're using the Jedi Academy, which is completely EU. But Katarn is never, as far as I know, mentioned as being a teacher there, so they're not being completely faithful to what's been written a bout the Academy.I don't believe that it has been stated that Kyle wasn't a teacher at the Academy at some point. So why is it not feasible that he was? It doesn't contradict anything, does it? This is another thing I like storywise about the JK series. They don't try and alter any from the movies. They use the movies and build from there. Some of the EU outright contradicts what is in the movies. Like the NJO and the no lightside/darkside stuff.
If games were considered canon above EU then the following would be true.
Technically no, because they would still contradict the movies, which are the highest canon.
The EU is not canon, only "official" or "quasi-canon."
I think I know what you were trying to say, and it's funny and I agree, but you were wrong on that one point.
Originally posted by Kurgan
Technically no, because they would still contradict the movies, which are the highest canon. Followed by the novelizations and radio dramas. The EU isn't really "canon" at all, since it is not from the mind of George Lucas.
As Kurgan said official != canon
i agree with prime, Tie Fighter was the best Star Wars game ever, it had a parallel storyline to the movies so there was no story conflict, and it was just really fun to play!
But ive said it before and i'll say it again, EU is not 'Star Wars' in my opinion. Star Wars is anything written by George Lucas and nothing else.
So, while you never see Lando go back to cloud city in 'Jedi', you assume he does, and he still runs it. And some people are including thing in Pod Racer as story elements?!? gimme a break! Those are kiddy games at best, with no story to them whatsoever, you just race around a big track really really fast.
So anyways, the books are not canon, i especially hate the ones that make up crap about the original star wars characters that is completely and obviously wrong (ive not read a whole EU book, but some of the posts here give some good examples) This being said, i never got into the books that introduce other characters, they just dont have the same feel as the movie characters. The movies feature characters that are persistant throughout both trilogys, and you get a feel for them, know what they're like. The EU characters feel like they're a character 'tacked-on' to an already long running sitcom thats loosing ratings or something, you never really like them.
Also the games are not 'canon' per-se, some events conflict (like X-wing and X-wing Alliance, your character destroys both death stars) some do not (Like Rebel Assault 1 + 2, you assist in the correct order of events in RA1, but in RA2 its a parallel storyline)
Im really waiting for Knights of the Old Republic or Galaxies, because they'll conform to the things we know from the movies, not the EU which the JK series will always be stuck to becuase of the new characters it created.
Just a little nitpick on the side from what I said. The terms "quasi-canon" and "official" are just ways of explaining all this, they are not actually official terms themselves (used by LucasFilm or Lucas himself... but by some of his authors and cohorts).
Essentially what you have are GL's stories:
Films
novelisations, screenplays, radio dramas
And the rest of the officially liscensed stuff:
"The EU"
With the games somewhere at the bottom.
Something along those lines anyway, as far as continuity goes. Then of course there are exceptions like the "Infinities" stories that aren't supposed to fit anywhere, but are just "what if" scenarios.
As I have posted before, Lucas explains the difference between the two:
GL - 2002: "There are two worlds here," explains Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe-the licensing world of books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, they do intrude in between the movies. [b]I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
The movie stories (in all its forms: i.e. novelisations, screenplays, radio dramas), are the only things that are really "canon".
posted by Matariel
Tie Fighter was the best Star Wars game ever, it had a parallel storyline to the movies so there was no story conflict, and it was just really fun to play!You do not tell a lie! :) Tie Fighter was awesome, and a perfect example of what I mean. The Inner Circle was a cool original idea, and it did not conflict with the movies.