No, I totally agree. If you went into the EU, like the inclusion of the solos, EU fans like me could quit bitchin', and EU-haters could eat it, and those who accept but don't like EU could see all their favorite parts from the movies. Everybody wins, except EU-bashers, but they don't count in my book anyway. ;)

Actually Solar, that isn't off-topic at all. You present a very good point as to why Raven shouldn't follow the EU. Allow me to respond...

The point I tried to make a while back is that very few people have ever even heard of EU. I heard about it a year ago on these forums and I've collected the little figures in the 80's and watched every Star Wars movie a gazillion times ffs! Whether or not EU or NJO is great literature is irrelevant.

The point is that people who like the movies are going to buy the game and they buy the game because they get to do and see stuff from the movies.

True. However, if people wish to repeat stuff from the movies, they are welcome to do so in the EU territory. I don't quite see what kind of problem this would cause so far if they create a game based off EU material. Jedi Outcast had a few levels set in the Jedi Academy on the Yavin 4 moon, which is a pure EU invention. Yet, it worked excellently, I don't believe there have been any complaints about that... right?

Try telling George Lucas that he should make a SW-movie but forget about Stormtroopers and use Yuushan Vong instead.
You know what he would say? Here's what:
George Lucas: "Vuushi Heuyong? What's that? Kung fu?"

A minor misconception, methinks. George Lucas has to approve wether the storylines of all literature material falls within his vision of what Star Wars is supposed to be, so he would know what the Yuuzhan Vong are. (minor tidbit, the Vong were originally supposed to be the Sith, but this idea was later on scrapped, prolly because the "always two there are" rule was invented around those times)

However, the average SW fan might not have heared of these. This is also amongst the reasons that I agree that the Vong should not be the main baddies in a SW game... yet. What I would like to see somewhere down the line is that a game would include a bonus mission/level in which you can fight against a few Vong.

I'm sure that meeting the Solo twins would be cool to all those 3 people who have a) read and b) liked the book/s in question but you have to face it: To every potential buyer that knows his EU there are a million "casual Star Wars fans" out there who will get JA when it comes out and be really pissed if they don't get to do & see the Canon-stuff.

I really don't see why there would be so much harm if the Solo twins would make an appearance. If they'd run the show, ja, I'd understand why people would peeved. Heck, I m'self wouldn't like it, Luke should run the show. However, if they are referred to as Solo, the average fan would surely understand that they're related to the Solos. To work in the Solo Twins(or any other existing Jedi for that matter) wouldn't be that tough to do.

For example, I was recently replaying X-Wing Alliance, and I marvelled at how well it works with the EU material. They've incorporated various EU characters and situations in there in such a way that for the casual fan, it would be just another character or mission in the vast Star Wars galaxy. Meanwhile, the EU fans would simply smile at the mention of Borsk Fey'la or that they are allowed to participate in the attack on the freighter Surprosa.

KotOR is also shaping up to be an excellent game for both EU fans and casual fans.(please note that I'm referring to their EU tastes, not at their preferred gameplay) The story is set after the "Tales of the Jedi" comics, but Bioware has already made it perfectly clear that you don't need to have read those. There might be a few minor references to it, but it's a whole new story. They have, however, shown that they are not totally ignoring the Tales of the Jedi Story arc by neatly placing various EU references in there. We have master Vodo-Siosk Baas' being mentioned as the creator of the Dantooine academy, the Empress Teta system developing armor, and swords being forged out of Cortosis. Now, for the casual fan, this is simple background material. For the EU fan, it is all a neat tie-in.

I guess that's where I'm hoping to see Jedi Academy lead to... a story which casual fans will enjoy, but also with minor nods to the EU.

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
LucasArts is a company founded for Star Wars games.


You deserve a very long horrible painful death.

While you're dying slowly and horribly you should maybe consider doing some research. You might find out that LucasArts was around starting in the late 80's but didn't put out a Star Wars game until the mid 90's.

Oh shush! Lucasfilm will always be remembered for Star Wars, regardless of Indy or even American Grafitti (this might not be Lucasfil, I'm not sure). Star Wars is really George Lucas' main claim, the rest is okay, but SW is the focus. (PS- I'm a huge Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Sam&Max, Tentacle fan too)

Now to be a completely hipocritical nitpicker myself :D :
Yavin 4 was in ANH as a major location of importance. Remember that part where the Death Star is about to fire? That's what they were firing at.

Now then, I havn't played X-Wing alliance, but I'll make a note of it. That it mentions the EU is exactly what I've been pushing for.

The "bonus level Yuuzhan Vong" is a VERY good idea. In the literature (and I havn't read much of it, and none of the early stuff like Vector Prime, so my arguments have been practically BS for most of this discussion) it says that some "outside forces" have been detected, but it never specifically says they're YVs. That would also be a good way to kill off the character you make in JA, if anyone else thinks that's a good idea. The Vong aren't the most original creation, but they are a great part of the story anyway. The fall-apart of the New Republic and discrimination of jedi is one of my favorite parts of the EU.

->Edit

:wstupid: Oops! Shoulda made that a spoiler! Well I hope that anyone who reads this doesn't get mad!

Now then, I havn't played X-Wing alliance, but I'll make a note of it. That it mentions the EU is exactly what I've been pushing for.

I certainly recommend it. The events of Shadows of the Empire play a huge part in it. You remember that little scene in which Vader attacks a small Rebel Asteroid base? You get to participate in that battle, and I believe you can even see Vader flying by for a moment. I mentioned the freighter Surprosa earlier on(almost quoted line-by-line from the book, complete with missile fired upon several Y-Wings and Dash trying to shoot it down). Melan Koth(the Bothan from SotE) also makes an appearance. You'll be flying near Kothlis as the Bothans try to escape from raiders. Basically, it's all "just another mission" for the casual fan, whilst it's a nice, special occasions for the EU fans. And in a downright hilarious scene(I nearly fell out of my chair in this mission), you accidently end up in the Imperial Training center in the Carida system.

And there are lots more of these tiny touches... I think I saw the Wild Karrde at one point.

Lol, this is specifically how I mean that people's tastes can differ so significantly while still seeing aspects of the same universe.

Frankly, I hope they do not introduce the YV into the JK series or any other game that isn't related to the NJO. If they make a game which chronicles the adventures of the NJO or events related to that then no problem at all, in fact there I might even decide to buy it pending how the game is.

But for me personally, the YV themselves as a race concept, what they represent, and how they are developed and particularly those things you mentioned about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi discriminations are some of the very specific things I don't like about the NJO.

Don't think I'm saying I wouldn't support NJO-themed games for you fans of the series, because I really would. But I would not like to see the existing series go in that direction. Personally, I'd rather continue fighting the Sith over the YV always. Maybe someday we'll both get what we want.

Hell, if that means twice as many SW games, I'm on board!

Originally posted by Burrie
...closely following the "hating the TPM movie and JAR JAR" fad. People hate the EU for the sake of hating the it because everyone else hates it... Yeah, I never got this. Same with AOTC. Everyone I know really enjoyed them. The only place I've seen people bash it is on the internet. Certainly, there are many flaws, but "regular people" seem to enjoy it for pure entertainment. Not everyone is going to like it, but I suspect that all the bashing you hear is from the vocal minority.

Originally posted by Burrie
...So let's agree on conflicting opinions! :cheers: Indeed :)

Apart from the Vong and so on, many of the concepts of the post-ROTJ EU I like. I am interested in the re-establishment of the Jedi Order and Republic. I am interested in the lives of our heroes after the death of the Emperor. But in the end, the stories didn't take a path that I thought they should and would be interested in.

I notice that alot in the EU. My solution is to just not file it away in my brain like I would some storyline that I really like. I don't like all of the EU by far, but the parts I like, I bring up. The other stuff I acknowledge but don't neccesarily think of when I discuss it.

Jeez, I barely skimmed the surface of many of these posts - all I got to say is the lot of you are all sons of Force Long Post (tm).

To express my opinion, in as few words as possible, I would prefer that Raven stay as close to the currently understood all-encompassing Star Wars cannon as possible. No need to intentionally contradict that which we know and distract people from the storyline.

If it's truly a penny for your thoughts, then there's my two cents, and you can even keep the change (tm) :cool:

Just to clear things up:

There is no problem with EU-elements (as far as I can see) but *focusing* on something that the average joe does not know about would be foolish.

A good example is taking out stormtroopers, the Sith and "the dark side" altogether and replace them with force-resistant YV who you fight in places and times that have no connection with the movies.

That would not be STAR WARS to many of us, but merely a FPS with a saber. ;)

Many interesting points. I've read (and listened to audio books of) numerous EU books, include old republic stuff, near-Trilogy stuff, post trilogy stuff, and some NJO. I'll state my bias up front by saying that I've tried, but don't like the whole Vong thing ... I like a couple of the books, but the whole concept bugs me. Anyway ...

It is amazing how some EU elements have become engrained into near-canon status. Of course Luke established the new Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 wasn't that in .... er, I guess that was EU. I believe that the inclusion of EU characters as side-characters, as many have mentioned, would add to the SW feel.

As for the bashing ... there is something I call 'Star Wars Syndrome' (SWS) that seems to have popped up since TPM ... maybe since the Trilogy SE, but certainly since TPM. In SWS, every new Star Wars element is over-hyper analyzed by Star Wars geeks, but publicly and with a jaded, cynical view. As a result, all that is seen is the flaws and the negative side of things. I like TPM - it is my least favorite, but i like lots of parts of it. And I love AotC - it is actually my favorite of the five (and I was 11 yrs old in line in 1977...). It (SWS) is a destructive habit that eats the community alive, and makes it hard to produce good product ...

Mike

Originally posted by Vagabond
...Star Wars cannon... Cannon? You mean like the Death Star super laser? :p

Originally posted by Luc Solar
There is no problem with EU-elements (as far as I can see) but *focusing* on something that the average joe does not know about would be foolish.

A good example is taking out stormtroopers, the Sith and "the dark side" altogether and replace them with force-resistant YV who you fight in places and times that have no connection with the movies.

That would not be STAR WARS to many of us, but merely a FPS with a saber. Not only from a marketing/casual fan standpoint, but using the Vong just doesn't work because they are immune or whatever to the Force. People are going to pick up the game and expect to be able to use all these cool Force powers, only to find that they have no effect on the enemies they are supposed to fight.

Boring!

ot only from a marketing/casual fan standpoint, but using the Vong just doesn't work because they are immune or whatever to the Force. People are going to pick up the game and expect to be able to use all these cool Force powers, only to find that they have no effect on the enemies they are supposed to fight.
Boring!

Good point actually. This is also a bit of a reason why I'd simply want a Vuuzhan Vong mission to be an extra, a bonus mission if you will, like those extra mission that appeared in Galactic Battlegrounds at the end of each campaign. Still, they'd be one helluva adversary in an X-Wing Alliance-like game...

As for the bashing ... there is something I call 'Star Wars Syndrome' (SWS) that seems to have popped up since TPM ... maybe since the Trilogy SE, but certainly since TPM. In SWS, every new Star Wars element is over-hyper analyzed by Star Wars geeks, but publicly and with a jaded, cynical view. As a result, all that is seen is the flaws and the negative side of things. I like TPM - it is my least favorite, but i like lots of parts of it. And I love AotC - it is actually my favorite of the five (and I was 11 yrs old in line in 1977...). It (SWS) is a destructive habit that eats the community alive, and makes it hard to produce good product ...

Good analysis. In my opinion, some people have forgotten one of the main purposes of cinema movies : Entertainment. They tend to overanalyze some things a bit too far. Mayhaps it might've been better not to show Yoda... but damn, was it entertaining the see the green Jedi fight. Other people detest the battle of Geonosis, because the Jedi shouldn't fight like an army, keepers of the peace, bla bla bla... me, I hadn't really followed the spoilers, and was blown off my seat once the fight starts with Kit Fisto leading a large group of Jedi straight into a mob of droids, and I loved every second of it afterwards. Another example, I've seen the movie "Scorpion King" got various bad reviews, because it was simple, bla bla bla... me, I loved it. One man and his allies going against an entire army... and winning. That's entertainment. Next week Saturday, I'll be going to the Matrix Reloaded movie. My plans are to simply sit back, grab a big bag o' popcorn, and simply be entertained from one action scene into another, whilst also keeping a close eye on the story.

I am a bit more forgiving when it comes to movies... I don't care if there are plot holes in the story, as long as it provides me with entertainment. That's what it's all about.

Originally posted by Prime
Cannon? You mean like the Death Star super laser? :p


No, actually, I was thinking of something along the lines of a mortar, but I'm not picky :cool:

I think a game with the Vong could work, though maybe it wouldn't be exactly the same. You would have to rely more on the force for things like healing, fighting, telekenesis. The Vong are not *immune* to the force, they are just not part of it. What this means is that although, for example, a jedi couldn't *see* them through the force, he could see that the force was not there, and go by that.
I think that you could include the YV in games, but to make them the main focus would require some rethinking on the way the game would be made.
Bonus level would be the best compromise for JA.

I think this thread should be closed for the simple reason Raven doesn't need to do <snip> EU research...<snip>...who cares even if it does conflict with the EU do you want a new game or not?

From Vagabond: Please refrain in the future, Count_D00ku, from attacking other members of these forums. You are free to debate different topics and hold your own opinion. However, you must not represent yourself in these forums in a hostile or offensive manner. You have been warned. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

And this thread will not be closed simply because you disagree with certain views expressed herein. Enjoy.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I think a game with the Vong could work, though maybe it wouldn't be exactly the same. You would have to rely more on the force for things like healing, fighting, telekenesis. The Vong are not *immune* to the force, they are just not part of it. What this means is that although, for example, a jedi couldn't *see* them through the force, he could see that the force was not there, and go by that.
I think that you could include the YV in games, but to make them the main focus would require some rethinking on the way the game would be made.
Bonus level would be the best compromise for JA. I know what you are saying, but I fear what would happen if Lucasarts puts out a Star Wars game that only has the Vong as main adversaries. Many (most?) people who will pick up the game won't know about this enemy. People expect a Star Wars game to reflect what they see in the movies. That means stormtroopers and battledroids. I don't now how much interest there would be for general consumers. IMO, The Vong do not translate well to Star Wars game villians anyway.

Originally posted by Count_D00ku
I think this thread should be closed for the simple reason Raven doesn't need to do <snip> EU research...<snip>...who cares even if it does conflict with the EU do you want a new game or not?

From Vagabond: Please refrain in the future, Count_D00ku, from attacking other members of these forums. You are free to debate different topics and hold your own opinion. However, you must not represent yourself in these forums in a hostile or offensive manner. You have been warned. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

And this thread will not be closed simply because you disagree with certain views expressed herein. Enjoy.

Wow, admins have gotten cranky lately. Tired of living alone?

Nope - not cranky at all. But Count_D00ku was insulting people because he didn't share their opinion. He's free to disagree, but he's not free to attack people. Just keep the debate civil - it's that simple. Thanks.

Prime,
I'm afraid you're probably right. The Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't be familiar to most SW fans, and so the game would not be marketable.
Remember the days when the games industry was a bunch of nerds in their parents' basement, making games for fun, instead of a bunch of advertisers sitting around conference rooms telling designers waht to do?

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Remember the days when the games industry was a bunch of nerds in their parents' basement, making games for fun, instead of a bunch of advertisers sitting around conference rooms telling designers waht to do? I do. Sometimes I miss my old Commadore Vic 20 :)