Originally posted by Prime I understand the competative enjoyment that people get from this game. Hell, I enjoy beating someone, and I do try and win when I play. But when I play I usually do so in a manner I feel the game was intended, i.e. using different moves and countermoves. The point I was trying to make was if the game to someone comes down to just pull/throwing all the time, is winning that way really fun to them? I guess for me it would take away some of the enjoyment of the win. I enjoy a win much more when I defended one attack in a good way and had a well placed counter attack, and so on. If I just pull/threw for the umpteenth time and won because once again there was nothing the opponent could do, that just doesn't seem appealing. But everyone is different.
I see what you are saying but I'm not sure if you accurately got that pull-throw example the way I intended it (my bad).
The pull-throw is by no means a "super" move you can spam over and over on it's own for quick wins.
Let alone is it something I would ever really rely on as my primary offense.
The only reason I threw it in there was because of the absorb comment he made.
It was simply a way of me showing “he does X, I counter with Y”.
Absorb users when pulled will not slide but they will go into the "hand out" animation.
Hence an absorb user is a much easier target for pull throwing than a dark sider.
That has really been my gripe since day one with a lot of people who posted and complained here.
There never really has been a "super move" that could not be countered in any version.
The DFA of 1.02 was not a big deal.
The back stab of 1.03 was not either.
Kicks and pull-throws are not a big deal.
All people had to do was learn the counters and those moves being "spammed" was not a concern anymore.
But the problem is they didn't want to learn, they just wanted a quick fix (patch) to make up for their shortcomings.
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
I'm not sure where you did most of your 1.04 Force dueling but statement could not be more off if you tried man.
1.04 Force dueling is ALL about Force based combat and maybe 1% saber swings.
99% of the top ranked FF duelers throughout all of 1.04 didn't even use sabers in FF dueling other than as a follow up swing after a kick knockdown.
And there has never been an "elite" light side FF dueler throughout all of 1.04 on any ladder or league.
Light side at any level is completely and utterly worthless in 1.04 dueling.
I zap you with a short blast of lightning.
You reflexively flip on absorb.
I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).
You try a heal you waste 1/2 of your pool for a measly 25 hp.
All I have to do is drain whore you and kick you to death and the match is over.
In 1.04 FF dueling this is how it goes in terms of what is best:
Drain (it is simply too damn easy to reverse 80 hp of damage by whoring it on a person with poor evasive skills)
Kick (level 2 jump)
Pull
Saber throw/Grip
I put the last two on about the same level because they are more of a "part" of devastating combos rather than the actual attack itself.
A properly done grip+kick can take a 100hp person down to 0 in one shot.
Two back to back throw+pull+kick combos will finish off a 100 hp person as well if done properly.
Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*
... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!
MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke :P
Originally posted by ILR
Sorry man, you have the wrong forum... and I didn't know that Lord of the Rings game had wizard duels *srhrugs*
... OH WAIT!! YOUR TALKING ABOUT JK!!!!!!!!!!
MY BAD! When I read that nice description of strategy the last thing I thought you were talking about was Star Wars. But no really.. its my mistake, I mean Star Wars: Jedi Knight II shouldn't really be like Star Wars. If I wanted Star Wars in my Star Wars game, I'd go play a different Star Wars game! But honestly speaking, who here really wants Star Wars in their Star Wars games? Ha! Whatta joke :P
Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.
ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.
RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.
I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.
I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.
Force > sabers in movies.
Force > than sabers in game.
In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.
Hence the name Full Force Duel.
You are dueling with Force.
Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.
Duel means two people fighting against one another.
Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.
LMAO!! ... Luke...saber RPG ass.. True, so true.
I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.
Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.
Originally posted by Mr. Mofo
I still don't see what this pull/throw combo is, splain more plz.
If you throw your saber at someone and pull just before the saber hits, the pulled opponent goes into the "pull-counter-animation" even though absorb is on.
The automatic animation blocking the pull lowers your defences and the thrown saber hits you every time.
There is really not much you can do about that(?)...other than evade the thrown saber.
Some people say it's cheap, but...whatever.
Originally posted by Mr. Mofo:
Anyway, who's to say Palpatine never carried around a lightsaber? Could have kept it under his robes, and he never really had a need to whip it out.That's enough of that kind of suggestive smut! This is a family forum! :p
And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.
Originally posted by Spider AL
And I support everything shock ~ unnamed says that is or could be construed as being anti-fanboy.
... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy? :confused: ;)
Originally posted by Luc Solar:
... doesn't that make you and anti-fanboy-fanboy? :confused: ;)Logically, technically, factually and morally yes,..
But no. :D
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Well since every fan boy likes to reference the movies let's do so now.
ESB-Vader gets tired of screwing around w/ Luke and uses the Force to chunk his ass out a window.
RotJ-Emperor does not even carry around a fruity little saber.
He just zaps the hell out of Luke and totally "pwns" his saber RPG ass.
I don't see sabers lifting ships out of swamps.
I don't see sabers bringing down roofs and pillars on top of people.
Force > sabers in movies.
Force > than sabers in game.
In FF dueling it is a test of Force based combos and knowledge of the defenses.
Hence the name Full Force Duel.
You are dueling with Force.
Duel does not automatically mean saber, I know that is hard for a lot of fan boys to grasp but a duel can be w/ sabers, powers or even guns.
Duel means two people fighting against one another.
Duel does not mean we have to use sabers because everything else is gay.
-_-; for god's sake I know what the dictionary definition of a duel is...
And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action. I'm not saying its a bad game, nor am I saying it doesn't take talent or that there isn't strategy involved. I'm saying that it's not Star Wars. I'm fine with things not being Star Wars. I'm not really that much of a fan boy. I scarcly play SW games. I don't have a single piece of SW merchandise in my house. But when I do get around to playing a SW game, its cool when it actually resembles the movies more than just by graphics.
Yes Vader pwned Luke's ass with force, but Vader was a master and Luke a total n00b. In JKII SP when you faced n00b reborn all it takes is one push and a slash most of the time. When you faced the shadow troops later on force tricks didn't work as well (But they still did work..)
Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that). Dooku and Yado even agreed that their duel cannot be won with the force, but rather their l337 lightsaber skillz (sorry, I couldn't resist :P).
We need the force in a duel, of course. Because its the force that turns the lightsaber into a deadly weapon and not just a uber exacto knife.
Originally posted by ILR
And I don't think force should be should be eliminated from duels by all means, but you've got to be smacked up on something to think what your described a few posts ago solid SW action.
JK2 is a video games loosely based in SW universe.
Much like the novels that have been put out for several years now.
The authors/developers are given the creative freedom to do things you never saw in the movies.
Hence another reminder this is not in any way related to the previous or current films.
JK2 is a game.
It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with.
Hence yet another validation of what people like myself have been saying.
You people are not mad because it is a bad game, you’re mad because it is not like the movies.
Until people can learn to separate the movies from the games they will never be able to enjoy the games for what they are.
I don't think ppl understand the obstacle that "true" saber combat is... Think of it in a dev's perspective. It is impossible to match any type of actual "saber dueling" via a mouse and keyboard. Come up with an ingenious way of scripting some random neo-gen and mail it to Raven. With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat. Trust me, I fence, I know. In-game sword play is much more complex than most "fanbois" think... I'm guessing it'll take atleast 5 years before any type of "true" saber combat is found in an online game. It's just too damned difficult to get around...
Originally posted by ILR
Yado can lift an X-wing out of a swamp, but for some reason he doesn't pull Dooku's arms off. And why not? Well.. the answer isn't really givin (maybe George thought the action scene was more dramatic like that).
Actually, George did tell us why Yoda didn't pull Dooku's arms off. From Empire, "Use the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack." Probably safe to assume that pulling someone's arm out constitutes an attack :)
Originally posted by Break_dF
With the implementation of auto-blocking, the game completely stepped away from any "true" movie-style combat. Blocking IS saber combat.
I don't think auto-blocking is a drastic deviation from "true" movie-style combat, or more generally, that JO deviates greatly from the movies. There is strong evidence that the force guides a jedi's actions, instead of the jedi making consious moves. From A New Hope:
BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?
BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your commands.
and
BEN: This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct.
I think the auto-blocking, besides being a gameplay decision, represents the jedi's instintive reflexes when using his saber, both for defending against a saber strike and blaster bolts. The Jedi not so much says, "here comes a blaster bolt, so I need to place my saber blade right...here." He allows the force to control his actions to place the saber blade where it needs to be. Real movie auto-blocking :)
Every argument I've seen about how JO is such an abomination against the movies has already been disproven by various people with evidence from the movies. Spider Al and I have been a part of several of these debates elsewhere, usually involving Jedi with guns...
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.
Originally posted by ILR
Heh.. on the contrary.. I found the AI for the saber opponents so random that it was frusterating. Also, when the AI executes a move, he'll execute the move no matter what. My favorite example is the blue uppercut attack... so far the only way to dodge that is to be running away. Best part is that the AI will just slap that puppy in whenever the hell he feels like it. You could be slashing, he could be defending... he could be slashing and you defending.. you both could be slashing... and suddenly the video will go slow mow as I watch Kyle keel over from the ending frames of the uppercut animation.
Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly. He has "magic instant slash" compounded infanitly. When facing him it all looks the same- straight combat until I die suddenly from the ending frames of god knows what slash. And I love how like when you get a little too far away from him he goes force crazy... lightning and chocking up the ass. And that level 3 push doesn't do jack against it, hope you pacted Bacta containers. The only easy way to beat this MF'er is to be cheap as hell. I've had more engaging duels with Reborn fodder than with him. And to put him at the end of the game, talk about a sour note to end on...
Maybe for me it's differen't because All i do is a horizontal slash moving away from the lunge then their head is gone bcause of that.
I didn't like the flips, the slashes they used leaving them wide open, and like i said when i played in slowmotion i notice the failings of the collision system even more. Plus the points weren't even if you wan't to parry someone use red stance overhead swing knocked their own saber and yours into them .
I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehim and most of the time you can't push hhim out of his grip. IF the saber system were more challanging, and not ridiculous acrobatic swings where are not needed for certain characters removed, then it would be btter to me
Originally posted by Break_dF
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.
I was just saying I don't think it is as much of a deviation from the movies as people think, and to put those fanboys at ease. But hey, if you want to just flame me instead of saying why you disagree, by all means :rolleyes:
And the auto-blocking was developed because of the desire to make saber combat as simple as possible. From the developer chat November 20, 2001:
CreedoG: How complex will saber dueling be? Will there actually be skill, or only mouse/keyboard smashing?
Jedi Outcast: Our goal is to make the controls simple, but make the animations complex and exciting.
Jedi Outcast: The player is able to control the saber based on the player movement.
And being in the software business, there is nothing inherently more difficult about saber defense. If they wanted, they could have just as easily created a defensive system that uses input from the player. But that would require more of a learning curve to learn, and that was not the goal of the developers. Hell, I haven't tried it, but Promod already relies more on player input to some extent I think.
Fencing is as true as it gets...
And yes, you deserved to be called a tool.
Sorry Saber Superstar, edited my post above while you were flaming...
I see. I thought saber combat was more of a slashing/cutting style of swordplay, where as fencing relied on thrusts.
And do you make saber noises when you fence? :D
Originally posted by Break_dF:
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.Heh heh, grow up Break. I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble, but if you can't articulate better than this, you're no better than a fanboy.
Originally posted by Break_dF:
Fencing is as true as it gets... Of couuuurse... because you use the FORCE in fencing, don't youuu... :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but trying to equate your stabbing art with the sabre combat in a Star Wars computer game is just as futile as trying to reproduce the movies in game format.
Originally posted by Naphtali:
I agree, Desann was ridiculous, you can't duel him or out forcehimWell, I did it. And on Jedi Master skill. If I can do it, you can do it. Anyone can do it.
Or am I too elite? :D
Originally posted by Spider AL
I actually agree with you in that I think autoblocking is feeble
I also agree that auto-blocking might not have been the best way to go as far as gameplay is concerned. I understand why the decision was made, though.
I beat Desann with dueling as well. I was only on the Jedi skill level though :p
Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...
Originally posted by Break_dF
Sorry... I'm sick of arguing w/ ppl that think they know everything about game engines/mechanics. If you know so much, apply for a job at Raven. Until then, stfu. I'm the one that needs to grow up? You're the one equating true sword play to a starwars movie...
He was not equating true sword play to a Star Wars movie. In fact, he was stating the opposite. He was stating that fencing has very little relation to game lightsaber fighting, and gave good reasons why. If there is to be a connection made between movie saber fighting and real world swordplay, I think it is supposed to be closer to Kendo.
Do I know everything about engines/mechanics? Certainly not. Some things? Yes. Have I written video games? Yes. Do I write software for a living? Yes. So I at least have an incling of what might be involved. I also posted something from Raven on why they used auto-blocking, and it wasn't totally because it is difficult. However, I won't tell you to STFU, since I recognize that you are entitled to speak your mind, and frankly I just try not to be that childish. And I don't need to apply to Raven, I already have a great paying software job :)
And really, I would have prefered that you had replied with the above originally. If you had asked what I might know on the subject instead of just calling me a tool, then at least you would have asked a legitimate question.
But I digress. I really have no interest in getting into name-calling with you Break_dF. So I will cease to do so. Truce? :)
Christ, you guys just don't get it...
I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.
Originally posted by Break_dF
Christ, you guys just don't get it...
I tried to make a point, not drag myself into some random sw rpg discussion. JK3 will NOT be like the movies and it will NOT be anywhere close to "true saber combat." Get over it or, again, apply for a job at Raven.
For crying out loud. Who here is saying JO is just like the movies or real world swordplay? I and others seem to be agreeing with you. And where is there SW rpg discussion? :confused:
My point was that a defensive system in JO that was more complex than auto-blocking is certainly possible from an implementation standpoint. I was not trying to say that you could create a game that would very accurately represent lightsaber and real-life combat. I agree with you on that.
Originally posted by Break_dF:
Christ, you guys just don't get it...No Break, you don't get it. What are you doing here, trying to make a point? A point? How is calling people "tools" making a point? How is it mature? How is it intelligent? Are you just a troll, looking for a fight? Try to read people's posts properly in future before mouthing off with such intellectual masterpieces as "U R A TOOL" or "STFU". You have NO idea. None.
Originally posted by ImmolatedYoda
yes, TFC is dead yet there are constantly what, 400+ servers running it? and im one of those 1000s of players populating those servers :D .
People in the TFC community were saying it was dying shortly after I started playing it...over 2 years ago now. It just...won't...die! As some other people have said, it is rare for an FPS game to have a large community base after say 2 years, but it does happen occasionally.
What with my rubbish connection I don't play much MP anyway, Promod has been the only mp mod that really appealed to me. It brought saber vs gunner balance back a lot, and as some others have said, CTF became guns only in the 1.04 patch. And if your game is gonna be guns only...the guns need to be a bit more varied and generally fun than most in JK2. There aren't that many to start with, and easy to think of a few no one ever uses....
As an SP mapper I'm mostly interested in the SP side of things, and although it definately started slow, I really think it is picking up, along with some of the obvious stand-out levels on the way like Party Crasher, there are more and more good levels getting started, more and more people moving to SP mapping (including LivingDeadJedi :)). These are projects that actually look like they have a good chance of getting finished...and within a decent time scale too!
The SP community is a bit harder to guage, you can't look at servers or whatever, I guess the best way is downloads for SP maps. I think an SP playing community may prove to be more long lasting than an MP one as you don't need to repeatedly play SP to keep in practise, you can just go back to it whenever. SP doesn't have to compete with other online games either, its in a section on its own.
Although the code for SP wasn't released, I really don't think anyone can complain - it doesn't seem to make sense from a business point of view, and as someone already pointed out, Raven have given people in the editing community a lot of help and released the MP code, which is a lot more than some software houses do. Wheras the MP game has in some way suffered from a mass of mods, which have split the online playing community into smaller fragments, SP doesn't have the same problem with no SP mods altering the nature of the code itself. Although being able to alter the code would be nice, it is a luxury, you can edit a huge amount without it.
I have a feeling (I kinda hope they do too) that the next JK game will be an expansion focussing on the SP element, much like MOTS was for JK2. It will give SP editors more creative tools, hopefully rejuvinate the SP community a fair bit, and won't stop the MP mods for JK2 that already exist from working, and split the online community further.
I hate the word community, and I've used it...what...20 times? And yes, I was bored...interesting thread though :)
Originally posted by Spider AL
No Break, you don't get it. What are you doing here, trying to make a point? A point? How is calling people "tools" making a point? How is it mature? How is it intelligent? Are you just a troll, looking for a fight? Try to read people's posts properly in future before mouthing off with such intellectual masterpieces as "U R A TOOL" or "STFU". You have NO idea. None.
What's that?...
/cry
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
JK2 is a video games loosely based in SW universe.
Much like the novels that have been put out for several years now.
The authors/developers are given the creative freedom to do things you never saw in the movies.
Hence another reminder this is not in any way related to the previous or current films.
JK2 is a game.
It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with.
Hence yet another validation of what people like myself have been saying.
You people are not mad because it is a bad game, you’re mad because it is not like the movies.
Until people can learn to separate the movies from the games they will never be able to enjoy the games for what they are.
"you poeple"? Don't generelize. You've slapped down some assumptions about me that I have never stated in any previous post at this entire forum. In this post you've said that the movies and games are different. Yes.. its been said. The problem is you don't say why this is a good thing.
... And no, "It will not play like a movie because it never was one to begin with" doesn't cut it. That's like saying "You can't grow up to be a scientist, because your not a scientist"... and the poor kid who dreams of being a scientist now goes and drinks bleach.
Okay okay.. JKII is released and patched up the ass. He's grown up, went through high school, smoked a bit too much pot and didn't cut it as a scientist. JKII MP can NEVER be like the movies at this point. But.. *points to title of thread* somebody wanted to know why the game died. IMHO it was because of the extreme force powers.. and because of their extreme nature they were too difficult to balance for the raven team.
If force powers are kept the same the game would thrive. But somehow I believe that when the powers become balanced, we would end up with something that's much less "kinda sorta SW" and more "SW". While I don't know who "those people" are who irritate you so much, they probably want the same thing we all want: balanced MP. They just think their road is better, as we think the same of our own.
Sorry, my "you people" comment was not necessarily directed at you but just a broad generalization.
I apologize if it seemed to be directed at you; it was not (nor are any of the comments below).
I have stuck with this game for almost a year now (damn has it been out that long?) and I have never seen a bigger group of whiny crybabies in an online gaming community than what I have witnessed in JK2.
JK2 players demanded these patches, they got them, and then they complained the patches that they cried for destroyed the game...
Raven didn't make the saber useless to sell more copies.
It was not a marketing decision.
It was in direct response to all the bitching, pissing and moaning people were doing on these forums and via e-mail.
Every one of those patches was put out to shut people up and give them what they were crying for.
People bitched about the DFA/Drain/Grip/Back stab/one hit heavy kills it all got neutered like everyone thought it should be.
Go back and dig though some threads from 6 months ago.
Damn near every single new topic was:
"THIS <whatever> HAS COMPLETLEY DESTROYED THE GAME AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!"
Why are people still bitching, you got what you wanted, your infinite wisdom and the things you cried for should have made the game better right?
People who didn't know a damn thing about first person shooters, but were so damn vocal and adamant in expressing their infinite wisdom about what was wrong with everything (in their opinion) brought these stupid patches.
And now they sit here and wonder why people got sick of the game.
It was because of what the "community" was doing to it.
These "RPG saber off = peace BUT BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THAT IN TEH MOVIE IT'S NOT RIGHT FIX IT FIX IT MAKE LUKE HAVE TEH POWERS LIKE TEH MOVIE!!!!!" type of people make playing this *game very unpleasant for people who are just out to blow stuff up and kill people in a FPS.
But wait, my bad this could never be an action game or a FPS.
It just *has to be a role playing experience and we have to set rules and honor codes and be real Jedi and bow and show honor to Darth Chewbacca and kill the lamers who swing sabers in a 32 man FFA instead of /amsitting and blah blah...
One of the very first posts I ever made on these forums was:
“Hi I’m new grippers are killing me a lot any tips on countering it?”
Yeah, I actually had a problem with a move/attack/power and I ASKED FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO COUNTER IT.
Wow, don’t see that a lot in the JK2 community do you?
Of course not, just post something like:
“OMFG GRIP IS SO GAY IT IS DESTROYING THE GAME IT MUST BE PATCHED!”
Then get a few hundred similar minded fools to chime in and agree and bingo, you’ve got a patch!
lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...
like I said in another post....
a few things that turned me off of JO MP.
the rpging crack heads. I hate them, I hate them all. Thank the dear lord god above for swg, I hope in consumes all sw rpgers forever, I hope its sucks them in so fast and hard they never look at another sw game again. Being realistic it won't, they will always spread out and get their stinky rpging hands in every sw game that comes out. It is the curse of sw.
The community forums being down 70% of the time right after the games release I'm sure also didn't help much for average person. I know its hard to run a site like this and its not free, but it still hurt the game.
But the general thing that killed the game for me was it just wasn't all that fun for more than a week or 2.
Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.
The following is a simple demo of the .01 version of my ghoul2 based blade collision system for MP. Unfortunately, the demo recording doesn't seem to record True View data (without the .pk3 at least) so you're stuck with thirdperson for now. Hopefully, this will work on vanilla JK2 setups. Please tell me if it doesn't.
ProtoGhoul2 Blades Demo (
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/protoghoul2saber.dm_16)
Cool, eh?
Originally posted by Kengo
As an SP mapper I'm mostly interested in the SP side of things, and although it definately started slow, I really think it is picking up, along with some of the obvious stand-out levels on the way like Party Crasher, there are more and more good levels getting started, more and more people moving to SP mapping (including LivingDeadJedi :)). These are projects that actually look like they have a good chance of getting finished...and within a decent time scale too!
The SP community is a bit harder to guage, you can't look at servers or whatever, I guess the best way is downloads for SP maps. I think an SP playing community may prove to be more long lasting than an MP one as you don't need to repeatedly play SP to keep in practise, you can just go back to it whenever. SP doesn't have to compete with other online games either, its in a section on its own.
Although the code for SP wasn't released, I really don't think anyone can complain - it doesn't seem to make sense from a business point of view, and as someone already pointed out, Raven have given people in the editing community a lot of help and released the MP code, which is a lot more than some software houses do. Wheras the MP game has in some way suffered from a mass of mods, which have split the online playing community into smaller fragments, SP doesn't have the same problem with no SP mods altering the nature of the code itself. Although being able to alter the code would be nice, it is a luxury, you can edit a huge amount without it.
I agree that the SP side of things seems to be picking up a bit. There have been and will be some fun SP maps. This has always been my favorite part of the game, and I've never been a big MP person. I just played Nar Shaddaa Once Again and it was great. There is a new Bespin one coming out that looks like it should be cool as well.
You are right that the SP community is harder to know, but I get the impression that it is pretty big, perhaps even bigger than the MP one now. Although not really a way to guage the size, but I got more emails asking how to convert my MP skins to SP than anything else. There are lots of those kinds of questions around the boards here as well. A lot of people are still operating with a 56K modem.
I never understood why people complained so much about the SP source code not being released. The modeling and mapping tools were released, which is plenty to make great addons for SP. Really, the majority of mods for MP are skins, models, and maps.
The funny thing is, it seems to me that if you really want your editing work played/used, you should do it for SP. I just play on public servers, and I know I and others are "frustrated" that many of these are pure, so you couldn't use any custom skins/models and only the default maps are played. So unless a moder is making a Vader skin or something, it is probably not going to get widespread use. With SP on the other hand, perhaps mods can get a wider audience.
Jolts,
Why wasn't the game that much fun for you after 2 weeks or so?
ILR,
I think you're right that there are ways in which the force powers and sabre combat (and the guns, for that matter) could have been implemented to make the game more "SW" than it is now.
Is the game fun, in and of itself, as an FPS? Sure, for a little while, but then it loses its lustre and seems not all that much different from other FPS games out there.
What distinguishes this game is not the gaming modes, but rather the SW content. Without that, this would just be another Q3/UT type game with the same sort of ho-hum weaponry you usually see. So, when the SW content doesn't live up to what folks hoped for, whatever that may be, you've got a problem, as you pointed out.
Now, assuming we don't add in any new game modes (that would be heresy, naturally :rolleyes: -- see other posts in the thread for more on this), what could've been done to the game as it is, to make it more SW, in your opinion? I'm not challenging you, just curious as to what would have made the game more SW? How would you have tweaked/changed the force powers, guns, sabre combat, etc?
Originally posted by razorace
Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.
The following is a simple demo of the .01 version of my ghoul2 based blade collision system for MP. Unfortunately, the demo recording doesn't seem to record True View data (without the .pk3 at least) so you're stuck with thirdperson for now. Hopefully, this will work on vanilla JK2 setups. Please tell me if it doesn't.
ProtoGhoul2 Blades Demo (
http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/protoghoul2saber.dm_16)
Cool, eh?
I uh.. -_- couldn't get the demo to play. I just slap it in the base file and look it up in the demo option in MP right?
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Is the game fun, in and of itself, as an FPS? Sure, for a little while, but then it loses its lustre and seems not all that much different from other FPS games out there. Once again you missed out the all-important "in my opinion". It's high time that games were left alone to mature and develop without constant interference from sub-community-pandering patches. If a game grows boring for certain people, those people should find another game. If a game bores me, I don't run around trying to turn it into another game in order that it might interest me more, I leave it. I find another game that DOES interest me.
Trying to change a game into a completely different animal because you don't enjoy it, will only ruin it for those that DO enjoy it. Once that simple fact is grasped by all fanboys in every game community, the world will be safe from fanboyitis once more.
Originally posted by razorace:
Well, you can spend you time whining about JK2 or you spend it working on improving it.Well put, razorace. All those whingeing about so-called "improvements" to the game should put their money where their mouth is, learn to edit, and make a mod.
Originally posted by Break_dF:
lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...rotflmaoloool!!111 Another of Break's oh-so constructive snide remarks. Joy to the world. I don't agree with ILR, but at least if I wish to express it I'll have the maturity to make some logical arguments against his ideas instead of just sneering like a fanboy. :p
Originally posted by Break_dF
lmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...
And this will be my 30th. I fail to see how my newness to this board corrilates with my prior knowledge of the game. Seeing as how prior knowledge (by f'n definition) would not corrilate with what's going on now.
Originally posted by ILR
I uh.. -_- couldn't get the demo to play. I just slap it in the base file and look it up in the demo option in MP right?
You gotta put it in the base/demos directory, fire up JK2, open the console and type in demo demonamehere.
Basically, Spider, IRL, you have to understand 2 things:
1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.
2: If you're offended by no. 1 then you completely missed out on my other posts.
Originally posted by razorace
You gotta put it in the base/demos directory, fire up JK2, open the console and type in demo demonamehere.
that is pretty sweet man. Hope you can take it to it's full extent.
solo: There wasn't anything there I havn't already played. It was an updated version of jk1 with some improved lightsaber moves, but besides that it was pretty stale for me. I didn't like any of the guns, they were generic and unstar wars themed to me. The levels were bland and not very interesting to fight in for me to play in. I just didn't like it.
As for editing, everything i would want to add to the game would take a complete rebuild of it. I would rather do that with a newer different game engine like ut2k3 or for single player u2 or wait for some other engine.
I use maya so for modeling/animation I'm out of luck with JO.
Originally posted by Break_dF:
1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.Ohh is that right son? Well good for you! If the community has a player who's won more major tournaments than I have, played more games than I have, made more kills than I have, set more records than I have, discovered more techniques than I have, beaten more notable opponents in more game modes than I have...
someone who played Dark Forces 2 and MotS for years, winning money in prize tournaments, someone who was closely involved in the editing community of those games, producing maps, skins and entries for the Massassi level competitions, writing reviews for other fan-made levels for that site...
Someone who's dilligently researched the limits of the capabilities of the engines of all the Dark Forces series since his entry into that community, someone who trained for up to ten hours daily, unceasingly and relentlessly to become as good as he possibly could at both games, amassing a formidable record of results in the process...
Well, if the community has another player who's done all that and more, it's a really really good thing for the community, and I am thankful for it! If that player is you though, it's a shame that he's so arrogant, insulting and feeble-minded on the side.
Besides, the only great knowledge you've demonstrated here is your great knowledge of how to sling sad and petty little monosyllabic insults around, insults worthy of a true fanboy. :rolleyes: Oh, I forgot, you fence too. Good for you, stabb0r! Because fencing is a truly well-rounded fighting art, with many modern applications, and close relations to lightsabre fighting styles as depicted in the canon, as we all know. :p
Now that we've gotten all that out of the way, Breaky, you listen real close: Your logical arguments are non-existent, you fail to back up any of your wild slurs with fact, and even when you're contradicting people like ILR, people that I disagree with strongly, you do it in such a childish and insulting manner that you sicken even me, I who have been famous in the DF community since 1998 for my uncompromising debating style. Now my advice to you is to grow up forthwith. It's good advice. An intelligent person would take it. :D
Originally posted by ILR
that is pretty sweet man. Hope you can take it to it's full extent.
To the EXTREME, BABY! TO THE EXTREME!
Go back and dig though some threads from 6 months ago.
Damn near every single new topic was:
"THIS <whatever> HAS COMPLETLEY DESTROYED THE GAME AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!"
This is so true.
What i tend to see in the game is when you killed some one, you have done one of the following..... pull push hore, kick monkey, (in united coursent (sp?) this server has Back slash as in 1.03 nice pull backslash newb) or rocket freak yaddda yaaddaa unless they kill you and they never Die, they are not happy. or they like the sabber fight to last 2 hours lol. or the one that makes me Roll on the floor, is when you get the rage runners in a CtF game and get upset when you grip them, then say your a grip monkey hahahahaha
if i join a game i.e a full force with guns map, if i get killed by some one pull/push or blown up or kicked of a ledge, its ok with me, as if i did not want that to happen to me, i should of not joined a full force with guns map.
its not long ago that i posted about Kick is destoying the game. well i was wrong. first i thought it was a lot of bind key users, but i have only just upgraded to a better system, and found that it was a laggy PC that was cause of being owned. second is instead of getting angry try learn to be good at what move they are using on you, and try find a way of counter attack/avoid the move to. and now what do i do if some one is running at me to kick... well if i am next to a ledge, I find that a simple duck can help, or try time a roll to go under them.
btw mindtrick is gay and should be nerfed as i cant be botherd to use seeing...... j/k :p
Originally posted by Jolts
[B]solo: There wasn't anything there I havn't already played. It was an updated version of jk1 with some improved lightsaber moves, but besides that it was pretty stale for me. I didn't like any of the guns, they were generic and unstar wars themed to me. The levels were bland and not very interesting to fight in for me to play in. I just didn't like it.[B]
Yeah, see, those were some of my problems with the game. That's why it didn't have any real longevity for me. You've got shiny graphics and an improved sabre system (from Jedi Knight I, that is), but it just got stale for me after a while. There was nothing really all that innovative about the game, and the CTF maps that shipped with the game were never all that good. The guns definitely seemed more UT/Q3 than SW to me. I don't know why the secondary fire on the repeater turned into the big plasma ball thing, when it used to be the three shot spread. I guess they wanted to include some grenade launcher type weapon, a la Q3. The flechette cannon basically was the UT flak gun, but everyone's pointed that out already.
I'm still curious about what kind of edits you'd make, though. It sounds like they'd be pretty sweeping, so I'm rather curious to find out what they might be. If you don't feel like typing it out here in the thread, PM me or something.
Originally posted by Solo4114:
Yeah, see, those were some of my problems with the game. That's why it didn't have any real longevity for me. You've got shiny graphics and an improved sabre system (from Jedi Knight I, that is), but it just got stale for me after a while. Shame for you. I however, enjoyed it right up until I stopped playing because I couldn't find a decent game. I also played Jedi Knight right up until JO came out. Gawd, I love Dark Forces games. They're leet, and require no changes to the format. :D
Originally posted by Solo4114:
The guns definitely seemed more UT/Q3 than SW to me. I don't know why the secondary fire on the repeater turned into the big plasma ball thing, when it used to be the three shot spread. I guess they wanted to include some grenade launcher type weapon, a la Q3.Well Solo, anyone who's played JK1 will remember the Concussion Rifle aka "conky" which was used by Trandoshan bounty hunters from errm.. I think it was level 9 onwards. The secondary fire on the "Heavy Repeater" from JO was a "concussion explosive," according to the official site. Can't have a JK game without a conky. :)
Originally posted by Spider AL
Once again you missed out the all-important "in my opinion". It's high time that games were left alone to mature and develop without constant interference from sub-community-pandering patches. If a game grows boring for certain people, those people should find another game. If a game bores me, I don't run around trying to turn it into another game in order that it might interest me more, I leave it. I find another game that DOES interest me.
Trying to change a game into a completely different animal because you don't enjoy it, will only ruin it for those that DO enjoy it. Once that simple fact is grasped by all fanboys in every game community, the world will be safe from fanboyitis once more.
This really sums it up for me. I have loved this game from the very beginning, both MP and SP. Frankly there was little that I wanted changed, apart from the obvious bugs (DFA collision box and so on). I didn't really like the fact that each patch changed the game so drastically, firstly because I had to learn a new way to play, and secondly because I thought the game was good to begin with and didn't need sweeping changes. Personally, I think Raven knew that they made a good game, both from the reviews and boards, and should have let it find it's audience on its own. If it was a bad game, no amount of patches is going to make it a good game. Ignore people who whine when you know it makes no sense for the game. I never understood why people took the time to come here and demand sweeping changes about a game they didn't like and didn't play.
Originally posted by Spider AL
rotflmaoloool!!111 Another of Break's oh-so constructive snide remarks. Joy to the world. I don't agree with ILR, but at least if I wish to express it I'll have the maturity to make some logical arguments against his ideas instead of just sneering like a fanboy. :p
I was going to comment on this also, but after all the back and forth we had, I felt it just wasn't worth the effort.
Originally posted by ILR
And this will be my 30th. I fail to see how my newness to this board corrilates with my prior knowledge of the game. Seeing as how prior knowledge (by f'n definition) would not corrilate with what's going on now.
It doesn't. You have shown more class and knowledge than Break has shown after 500+. Even if people don't agree with you, at least you are willing to debate with counterpoints, and that deserves respect.
Originally posted by Break_dF
Basically, Spider, IRL, you have to understand 2 things:
1: I know more about this (game) than you two idiots combined.
2: If you're offended by no. 1 then you completely missed out on my other posts.
Whether (1) is true or not, we'll never know. When you do decide to post arguments, they don't always seem to make much sense, and the rest of the time you are just calling people names. You haven't posted anything that seems to show any sort of deep knowledge about the game.
As for (2), what the hell does that mean? If they were in fact "offended" by you knowing more, that would mean they wouldn't have missed out on your other posts, because they would have had to read them to see your "superior intelect". You seem to have no idea what you are talking about. The point is mute though, since these guys probably just disregard your posts now anyway...
And the number of posts indicates nothing about a person's knowledge about this game. Just because ILR has about 30 or so posts at his point says nothing about his knowledge compared to yours. This much is obvious when you post things like:
Yeah ok... continue being a tool.
andlmao... IRL's 27th post of infinite wisdom...
When you post crap like this, you come across as a teenager that either is a geeky nerd with an inferiority complex and has to verbally attack people on the internet to compensate or a troll. Since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you the later.
In either case, it sure is easy to call people names when sitting safely behind your keyboard in your parents basement, isn't it?
one more thing.. its ILR... If I had a dollar every time someone said IRL.. I'd have thirteen dollars.
Originally posted by ILR
one more thing.. its ILR... If I had a dollar every time someone said IRL.. I'd have thirteen dollars.
That's what you get for creating a stupid name.
Spuder AL: Wow u r smart. DF community cash money wowow. I wish I were as gud as u. No, wait.. you're a joke. Read some of my past posts then comment on how much I've innovated. While you mindless drones where screaming "FF is CHEAP," and wailing your limp sabers around, I was actually helping the community. If you play 1.04 FF and *if you're any good what-so-ever (which I highly doubt), then you can thank me for helping you w/ your *leet moves. I make snide remarks because you're a "tool." Oh, and yeah, I fence. There's a life outside of hentai and sw forums. Now go buy an idiot's guide to on-line gaming and stfu before you say something you can't back up.