I used to be an avid JK2 player and poster on these forums. On a whim, I decided to come back here to take a look at the forums and it seems like much of the same old stuff, albeit I've noticed people posting that they're leaving the game (folks who apparently got pretty involved with the community) and a few posts saying that the game is dying. For me, the game died a while ago, but I suspect that the game is dying for other people for a number of reasons. But, this got me thinking: what happened here? Why did a game that had such fantastic licenses (Q3 engine, SW source materials) end up losing steam when it should still be going strong? Incidentally, these are not in rank order as to what I believed killed the game. They're just whatever popped in my head.

1.) The Patch Fiascos

Let this game be a lesson to developers everywhere. GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. From 1.02 to 1.03 to 1.04, too much changed. Granted, I happened to enjoy 1.04, but I agree with a lot of the criticism that it slowed the game down. This game had some serious design/balance flaws to it from the get-go. Originally, the dark side powers seemed to dominate, especially given that the blue glow of "absorb" was always on. Plus, there was the whole DFA thing that was a problem. So, then came 1.03. Well, this fixed a great deal of stuff, but it also broke a whole lot more. Anyone need to be reminded of the ass-fighters? With 1.04, all moves seemed equally weak, and they all took forever to kill a person, especially due to the blocking. ArtifeX's ProMod helped to fix a lot of this, by essentially making the lightsabers always lethal and at the same time making the real question be based on the ability to get inside an opponent's defenses (which is as it should be with sword fighting). The mod also fixed a lot of stuff with gunners and mixed force users being WAY overpowered in relation to pure force users. Regardless, though, that mod alone was too late to save an already divided community. Many people left the game with each patch iteration, as each patch continued to isolate people from their particular playing style. Whether I agreed with these playing styles or not, the simple fact of the matter is that many people were driven away by fundamental gameplay changes. If the game had shipped using ArtifeX's mod as the core for sabre fighting, I imagine the community would've lasted MUCH longer. And I say this after having publicly lambasted ArtifeX (at least I think I did) when he left the first time, due to boredom with the game (during the Ass Wars). Playing the mod really pointed out to me the fundamental flaws in the sabre system with "vanilla" JK2 in ALL of its forms. For my money, the lightsabre should be lethal for any clean hit, regardless of how you execute it. If memory serves, this was the case with ArtifeX's mod. However, this brings us to a certain undeniable fact, which even ArtifeX's mods couldn't save.

2.) The gameplay modes were BORING.

Ok, I admit it. I'm a Star Wars junkie. I love most things Star Wars, and the idea of being able to play a first person shooter against otehr people in a starwars environment REALLY appeals to me, even after JK1 and JK2 left me rather disappointed. I also loved the models and maps that came out (well, most of them), and loved how the game looked. But in the end, the gameplay itself that lay beneath the flashy graphics left me rather bored. Fundamentally, it came down to deathmatch. Either individual deathmatch (IE: duel), team deathmatch, or free-for-all deathmatch. It's all just the same thing, over and over again, though. Grab a gun or lightsabre, find a guy, kill him, rinse, repeat. You can add all sorts of intricacies into HOW you go about doing that, but in the end, all you're doing is fragging opponents. Plain and simple. Throw in force powers, different moves, fancy looking models with cool sounds, nifty looking sabres, etc., it's still just running around mindlessly killing enemies. For me, the game lacked any sense of greater purpose or cohesiveness. Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Battlefield 1942 provided me with a much better sense of purpose in the game. Why? Because there were objectives to playing. You weren't just killing people for the sake of killing people. Star Wars has a rich background in that it takes place in the midst of a Galactic civil war. People fight in the star wars universe for a reason. It's not just running around fragging things. Ultimately, I find deathmatch to be intensely boring. It just feels like the same old thing over and over again, and to no real interesting end. Seeing who is the '1337est of the 1337' doesn't matter to me. I'd much rather work as part of a team in achieving a goal of some sort. Even the CTF mode in this game always felt weak to me. Maybe it's because it lacked any kind of class structure (IE: medics, soldiers, engineers, jedi, bounty hunters, smugglers, whatever), or maybe it's because there were never all that many CTF maps made and the ones the game shipped with were dull (it always felt like half of them revolved around throwing people off of balconies, rather than capping flags), or maybe it was because of balance issues with gunners vs. jedi. In the end, I always felt like CTF was sort of lost in the shuffle in this game, and the only modes that were played were the DM variants. In the end, I think we can't help but get bored with this style of play. I mean, how many times can you kill "H3114 1337 d00d" and really enjoy it? Even if you do it in a new location with a nifty-keen player model, or a cool lightsabre (or two, if you're playing one of the mods), it's still just the same thing over and over and over. And ultimately, that's just plain boring.

So, here's a lesson for the devs in the future:

1.) Make your gameplay balanced from the start. NOTHING is more important than balanced gameplay. It's because of the flaws in balance that this game had its community drastically cut each time a new patch came out.

2.) Make your game modes more interesting. BF1942 has been one of the highest selling games for some time now. Take a tip from this. Deathmatch is passe. We need soemthing more to sink our teeth into.

3.) Support your game to the bitter end. After 1.04, I got the notion that Raven's basic attitude was "hands off" for this product. Which is a shame, considering their patches had screwed with stuff to the point where we really could've used another one. Then again, each time the agme was "fixed," something else broke. As I said, I liked the ability to block in 1.03 and 1.04, and I liked the fact taht ass-fighting was gone, but there were still many many things that needed fixing/balancing.

So, if you want to know why the game died, that's my own view. It just got boring.

I agree with the idea that yea patches are asstastic.
However the whole point of jedi knight games has and will allwys be to frag. There shouldent be classes or anything like that, since if you want that, theres allways SWG the massive multi player thats currently in Beta.
One of the reasons I stoped playing was that I became 1st in the world and only had played to become the best, so I quit, plus my fave server ACGA which was one of the most popular servers for the game for several months went poof.

I'm not sure this game is dying. I still get at least 10 or 15 applications to the Academy a day.

It's dying.

A lot less servers...and most of them are empty.

Why did it die? Two reasons...


Lucas Arts patches. According to them, they "thought" that most players did duel maps only, because they were getting complaints about duels ending to quickly. To "fix" this, they set sabers so minimal damage so saber duels would last longer. They however, forgot...that most servers are actually FFA or CTF...and weapons kill one shot.

Second, all these dumb mods/models/files admins put into their servers, then not allow people to download them. Common sense "I'm gonna make some crappy mod to evryone else, but I think it just r0x0rs..then make it where no one can join my server due to auto-download being off! Hey! Why is my server always empty!?"

plus...admins that use jedi knight difficulty, and admins that fill their servers full of bots.

There are a TON of mods out there...and only ONE of them was worth downloading. Promod.

I havent posted in MONTHS, and I probably wont even check back to this, however:

I AGREE. Gameplay got repeditive, big time. Deathmatch, and Duel...........yay.

I had ALL the models and ALL of this sweet ****, but no servers ran with models it seemed. When they did, it was 3 guys in a DM. Wo, hoo......

Gameplay was boring, for me, because of the guns. Every gun stunk like awful boring clone crap to me. Unreal anyone? Same guns......

Ugh.........I dunno, single player was good, NOWHERE near great. Guns uselsss again, turrets, etc.......

You know.. I've never played JO online, not even once. I've played some bot matches but that's it. JO's juicy core is the Single Player element of it, if SP editing takes off, the community will flourish once more.

So the moral of the story is: Go out and make some bloody SP levels!

Agreed, if single player editing ever took off (which it won't -- people are too concerned with MP), the game could survive in a limited fashion, but the online JO experience is dying and has been dying a slow death for some time now.

What I'd have liked to see is an RTCW style of gameplay, classes and all. That's what I happen to like, and based on what games are selling well these days, that seems to be what a lot of other people like. In terms of the game always being about fragging, so's Q3, and I never played that. DM is boring. It's the same thing over and over again. Look at the self-proclaimed best player in the world in this thread (I have no way to verify if you were the best player in the world or not, hence the "self-proclaimed" bit). This guy claims to have played until he felt he was at his best, then quit. Why do you think that is? Because dueling with other people gets boring after a while. Even if you're the best. I imagine if you'd played as a part of a team, and towards a particular goal on various maps, then the game would've had more longevity. As for playing classes and comparing that to SWG, that's not what I'm advocating for (though I do enjoy RPGing). I'm talking about games like Team Fortress, RTCW, BF1942, etc.

I think that ultimately, when you rely on DM to carry your game, it's gonna die eventually. The only reason why the various quake games have survived as long as they have is their modability. If it wasn't that modable, and if it relied on DM solely, I doubt they'd be the blockbuster games that they are.

Something else to consider about why MP never quite made it for some of us (myself included): it never felt like it was a real Star Wars experience. Honestly, the game felt like just another quake mod which, while cool to look at, was ultimately fairly boring in terms of gameplay mechanics. You lost the Star Wars feel of the game because it was just DM. Like I've said, I love Star Wars, but I don't love it to the point where you can just slap Star Wars graphics on a game and have it automatically be fun for me.

THE fundamental thing that killed this game for me at least was it's eventual lack of immersiveness in the universe in which I wanted to play. Whether it was because the sabre fighting was more like jousting (1.02), because a single move could be spammed over and over to ensure victory (1.03), or because DM finally just got really really old for me (1.04), it all boils down to the same thing: that Star Wars feel to the game just wasn't there.

Now, that said, in terms of Single Player, this game was definitely one of the best Star Wars games put out in the past 6 years. However, I've yet to see a REALLY kick-ass SW MP game. Maybe Galaxies will do it for me, but I still don't like the idea of paying $10 a month to play a game. Maybe Knights of the Old Republic will do it, but in terms of MP FPS action, I doubt we're going to see anything to revive this game, and I wonder about the future of SW MP games.

It isn't just graphics, but gameplay.

I think Team Fortress Classic has a lot more re-playability and fun than JK2. The graphics suck vs JK2:O, but...it's a team game with classes...and it's been around for...what... 5...6 years?

JK2:O turned into another Deathmatch quake game. They also pratically removed saber usefulness. Boring.

So far as I can tell, JKII has been dying since ~March 29th of last year.

I don't play much at all online, SP is my thing. However, I agree that the patch issues really hurt the community. Looking back, they should have tried a 'MP Test' like RtCW to see how the gameplay balanced out. Maybe they'll try that next time.

When I've been looking around, it seems just about everything but Counter-Strike is dead. The 'war' games are clearly most popular - CS, MoHAA, BF1942 consume >90% of player on Gamespy. 'Fraggers' seem happy hopping around in Q3 ... JKII is no more dead than SoFII or RtCW - and many, many others.

I bet I could find an interesting game right now ...

OK, I'm back after getting my a** handed to me, then handing someone else their a** ... Good games and players still easily available.

So let's not bemoan the 'death of JKII' as so many have for nearly a year. Let's advice LEC how to better prepare for MP success with JKIII / exp. pack / whatever Activision leaked.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
So far as I can tell, JKII has been dying since ~March 29th of last year.

I don't play much at all online, SP is my thing.

I bet I could find an interesting game right now ...

... Good games and players still easily available.



People have been saying that this game has been dying forever. Maybe it is, but I view it as just a natural progression in the game's lifespan. Sure there aren't as many people playing it as there was in the beginning, but that is to be expected. The patch issues certainly didn't help, but at least Raven tried to fix things, even if they shouldn't have happened in the first place. Imagine how dead this game would be if we were left with 1.03.

The SP point is a good one. Besides the real online junkies, I would say that the majority of players picked up this game for the SP aspect. I know I did. I have made a few skins, and I don't know how many emails I get asking how to use or convert them for SP. IMHO, I think JO is ultimately an SP game, and that is where it really shines. I used to play online a lot, and it was fun for a while. But as has been mentioned before, the same kinds of games get boring. I also agree with the sentiment that MP doesn't really feel like the Star Wars universe. But I suppose this may be an difficult goal when you have to rely on 14 year old geeks to help create that immersion. Funny thing is, I seem to have more fun loading some of the great custom maps out there in SP and spawning Reborn or other custom models I've downloaded and fighting them. That seems to fulfill my dueling cravings. To me it's a lot more like Star Wars than fighting "r0x0r d00d" who pull-kicks all the time :mad:

But for those people who play this game for MP, as far as I can tell there are still a lot of servers around with people playing...

Originally posted by Prime
<snip>...difficult goal when you have to rely on 14 year old geeks to help create that immersion. <snip>

But for those people who play this game for MP, as far as I can tell there are still a lot of servers around with people playing...

Very good thoughts ...

I'm 36 (actually I got JKII for my 36th b-day, 1 week after release, so I'm quite nearly 37 ;-) and I play this game very differently now than I would have when JK1 came out, when Dark Forces came out, and certainly when I was pumping tokens in the Star Wars arcade game in the early 80's. I play like a Jedi - I really do. I feel completely immersed in the game, like no other.

Perhaps they should just scrap MP for the next version ;-) Only kidding! I think they should do mission-based MP. Light vs Dark, Jedi hunters, Destroy the shield, and so on. We all know different Jedi excel in different things, so you'd have 'see-ers', healers, DFA-spammers :D , and so on.

And don't forget co-op - master & padawan missions! Kyle and Jan missions .... uh, don't go there people!

Mike

Initially, it wouldn't bother me the least bit if they scrapped MP for the next Jedi game. But if they scrapped MP, there probably wouldn't be enough interest to release any editing tools, so it would hurt the SP editing community.

The original Jedi Knight had the best SP editing community on the internet. The Star Wars setting made it easy for people to make great levels with great stories. I was hoping JO would take the same course, in fact I strongly believed it would. I mean why not? Even Dark Forces had an exceptional SP editing community. Granted, really good SP levels take forever to make (Party Crasher has taken about 9 months so far, although it's nearly finished), but there doesn't seem to be that many really good SP levels in development.

So far JO's SP levels consist of; many badly designed levels involving combat with millions of Reborns and Stormtroopers, about three dozen or so Ladder maps and Occupation (the only SP level out there that is actually any good).

Hmmm..interesting points already raised. Jedi Outcast is one of the few games I've actually attempted to play online, and when the game was first released, I did quite well. I had (and still have) a laggy connection, so I relied mostly on other weapons in FFA, rather than the saber (though I actually won a couple of duels, to my surprise :) ). Anyway, along came the patches, and the saber combat became more difficult, etc, etc., unti it was pointless for me to try and use the saber at all on my laggy connection. I just kept dying, so I gave up.

Now I'm looking forward to the Dark Forces and Jedi Knight mods for SP, which look very promising. My recommendation to those who are growing tired of MP is...if you have the skills to help some of these SP Mods, why not help them? The more people who get on board, the quicker they will be developed, and the more quickly we can play them. :)

As far as future titles go...well, I also would not mind if they separated the game out into two separate games - one for SP, and one for MP. Get two developers, one to focus on MP, the other SP, so they can concentrate their efforts on delivering an excellent SP or MP game. That way they can expand on MP content, tweaking, gameplay dynamics, so that different saber styles and strengths can apply in different game modes, and not simply apply across the board. If they could sit down and really focus on optimising each MP game mode to deliver a slightly different and more rewarding experience, it would make a lot of difference, IMHO. Call it a Jedi equivalent of Unreal Tournament, and maybe then the MP will really shine...while the SP takes a different approach and direction.

Just my three quid...er, pennies...er...oh forget it...

I agree with the part about seperate developing studios Hammer. RTCW did that and they managed to pull off well developed SP and MP components.

Regarding the DF/JK mods, I'd much rather editors just worked for themselves. I've seen too many TCs go under after years of development and loads of staff. I'd much rather see lots of good SP levels than two or three good full-game-length episodes that go in development for years and never get released.

Objective based gameplay is where it's at. The mention of the light v. dark, rebels v. imperials, blow up the objective/grab the objective/hold territory, etc. style of play is really what I would've enjoyed.

I loved RTCW. The only reason I stopped playing was actually because I was trying to get into this. By the time I went back to RTCW a lot of the folks I'd played with had moved on. And this was a real shame because I'd found a great group of folks to play with. Now I'm playing mostly BF1942 because I've again found a good group of people to play with, but none of 'em play JK2 (and I don't blame 'em).

I tried the UT2k3 demo and found it to be intensely boring. The only marginally interesting gameplay style was bombing run, and even that was fairly weak. It was just more of the same spastic running and shooting with very little feeling of PURPOSE.

What appeals about the Star Wars setting is the grandiosity of the environment and the backdrop of the larger conflicts. That's why the WWII games are doing so well these days. The only reason, I think, that RTCW stopped having a lot of players (at least, I think it stopped) is that people moved on to new games and the mod community never really took off (thanks to PunkBuster -- a good idea, but one that ultimately limited the ability to customize the game beyond releasing new maps).

In terms of design flaws with this game, the more I think about it, the more two things seem apparent:

1.) The guns were boring as hell. Just variations on your standard UT/Q3 theme (another reason why this just felt like a mod). This was true of Elite Force as well, actually. Maybe Raven just can't really design good multiplayer action, although their single player games do rock. (EF had a great single player story, I thought.) The guns also didn't feel "Star Wars" enough to me. With the exception of the various blasters, they mostly felt like Quake or UT ports. Another strike against the immersion factor.

2.) The sabre combat always suffered in one form or another. Here's a big tip for the next designer of a SW MP game that includes the sabre: the lightsabre is always lethal wherever it hits, unless you're slicing off a limb. If you hit the body or head, it's game over. The notion that the sabre is blocked by shields, that you can take multiple hits, etc. is crap. Toss that one out the window PLEASE. Consequently, make it so that ALL moves are equally lethal, and it's simply a question of which move to use when, in order to break past an opponent's defenses. If you set things up in this fashion, the sabre combat will be MUCH more interesting.

That's it for now. If I come up with other improving ideas, I'll post 'em. I DO want to see something good come from the remenants of this game, and I'm not ALL about just bitching. :)

Originally posted by Solo4114
2.) The sabre combat always suffered in one form or another. Here's a big tip for the next designer of a SW MP game that includes the sabre: the lightsabre is always lethal wherever it hits, unless you're slicing off a limb. If you hit the body or head, it's game over. The notion that the sabre is blocked by shields, that you can take multiple hits, etc. is crap. Toss that one out the window PLEASE. Consequently, make it so that ALL moves are equally lethal, and it's simply a question of which move to use when, in order to break past an opponent's defenses. If you set things up in this fashion, the sabre combat will be MUCH more interesting.


I more or less agree, but think it should even be a bit more complex. Think about ObiWan and Dooku in AotC - you should be able - with 'Blue' stance - to take an opponent out without killing him. Perhaps you'd have to crawl off for a while to heal up, have only 1 life and 0 shield. Similarly, arm chops should render you vurtually dead, but still able to do something, again very little life, no agility, etc. But head swipe - lethal. Down chop - lethal. Up-swipe - lethal. And so on.

Mike

Right. Dismembering moves can be used (IE: Vader "disarming" Luke, Dooku "disarming" Anakin), and will effectively take the player out of the game, or, perhaps, to make it more team oriented, put the player in a state of shock. If they don't get force-healed or bacta-healed in X number of seconds, they die, but if they are healed, then they can fight one-armed or something. Though that'd mean coding for ambidexterity. :)

Or if this was a team game, they could be returned to the home base and healed quicker than it'd take them to respawn. Or just have it work the way RTCW's medic function did: you're lying on the ground, near death, but can be revived and fully (or mostly) healed.

Anyway, other stuff to improve the game:

Make the guns less explosive/energy ball focused, and much more blaster focused. As far as I can recall, no one EVER used a flechette cannon, plasma bomb, etc. in the films. You could have a variety of blaster pistols, rifles, etc. and include heavy rifles as well. Honestly, I'd take a major page from either RTCW if you want small unit tactics, or BF1942 if you want large scale battles if you're going to do another MP game. This universe DEFINITELY deserves to have a full-scale team-based objective-focused FPS made for it. And I'd LOVE to have the ability to drive vehicles like the AT-AT, or AT-ST, etc. Someone's making a BF1942 mod for Star Wars, but it'll probably be shut down by Lucasarts before long. Lucasarts should license the BF1942 engine and use that to build basically their own Star Wars mod, or something along those lines. That's what I'd REALLY like to play.

You could have the following classes:

Jedi/Dark Jedi

Trooper

Smuggler/Scoundrel (depends on which name we like better)

Bounty Hunter

Then, within each class, you could pick different specialties. IE: medic jedi, stealth jedi, explosives-based scoundrel, infiltration based bounty hunter, heavy-weapons based trooper, etc. Whatever. Something along those lines.

Flechette? A storm trooper using this abomination of a gun (looks like two squares put together, of different sizes, firing little cubes).....the guns SUCKED.

SINGLEPLAYER? I beat it in a couple DAYS! I downloaded TEN single player missions and beat them SO EASY. You need a BIG single player element, much bigger than JKO had, to say the games emphasis and gold lies in the singleplayer.

Quake1, Quake2, had single player stories. Ya beat them then go multiplayer with mods.

But there are TOO MANY MODS. What version? Jedimoves1, 2, 3, .xxxx, promod 1/2/3xxxxxx etc. Its stupid.

Ugh I could go on.

I play Day of Defeat right now. Differing TEAM BASES GAME with different teams and guns, maps arent symetrical, and there are camping spots, and fun weapons......

well, the flechette launcher is in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, albeit that technically isnt canon...and the JO version is changed from what it should be (of course). i wish that guns like the blaster and blaster had actual clips, because technically, they do, they have blaster packs and also gas cartridges, but i guess its just easier to give you 500 rounds with no reloading...yes, making JO more "realistic" (in the Star Wars universe) would be cool, but eh, i dont know. video games are meant to be an escape from reality, in my opinion, so anything TOO realistic would suck. anyways...you play DoD too Simplex? cool, i got into it last month, been playing TFC for a long long time. my name is Die Sturmgewehr 44 on DoD...

The original Jedi Knight had the best SP editing community on the internet. The Star Wars setting made it easy for people to make great levels with great stories. I was hoping JO would take the same course, in fact I strongly believed it would. I mean why not? Even Dark Forces had an exceptional SP editing community.
Huh? Compared to the awesome array of DF add-on levels that have been made, JK SP editing was completely pathetic. So it's no surprise to me that JO SP editing has been even more lacking. The DF mod looks promising, at least.

I still find JO to be a very fun multiplayer game, and I think that the weapon set is great and quite well-balanced, except for the saber being too weak. But even though I don't use the saber much, the combination of different guns with fast-paced gameplay and Force powers makes for some exciting games.

Uh...you realize it quite hard to mod SP when the frickin' code isnt even released to the community!! YOU HEAR THAT RAVEN, YOU GOT NOTHING!!

/rant

JKII is pretty much a hardcore players/RPG game. All the casual players have left, and the hardcore players are only here to squeeze whatever is left out of this game until SWG rolls around. RPG is quite fun IMO but not very widely accepted, for some reason...:rolleyes:

Me? I'm waiting for a new video card and BF1942...heck of a good game...:D

JK2 didn't eat enough roughage as a kid.

It did way too many drugs and drank too much booze.

On top of all of that, it fell in with the bad crowd.

And that is why JK2 died.

The reason i've been losing interest for so long, is that its actually far more enjoyable playing people who are completely out of my league. Now that the good players are leaving, i'm left with the people who just like to spam certain moves.

That's right, I absolutely LOATHE pull/push. JK was a fully three-dimensional game, flying through the air, air-to-air combat etc, that's what I loved about JK multiplayer. In JK2 you have to be completely insane, or KNOW that your opponent has zero force in order to attempt anything remotely enjoyable and rewarding.

There is something about the game which means that no matter how skilled you are, easy spam moves such as pull/push can stop you dead. I like a game where my own skill allows me to evade such basic traps.

I still play the game occasionally, but that's just out of boredom. I no longer think of JK2 multiplayer as a source of entertainment.

Originally posted by Jeff 42
Huh? Compared to the awesome array of DF add-on levels that have been made, JK SP editing was completely pathetic. So it's no surprise to me that JO SP editing has been even more lacking. The DF mod looks promising, at least.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't delve too deeply in the online DF scene. I played Mt Kurek, the Dark Tide series, Red Alert and a few others (all were pretty damn brilliant) but that was it. JK's SP editing scene (especially MotS) was excellent I thought and much better than any other of the heavily MP-orientated gaming communities that I've seen. I mean even the editing giant Half-Life only had about four SP levels that were worth playing, everything else was basically a level set in a half-arsed version of Black Mesa where you fight the same old Half-Life villains.

Originally posted by txa1265
Very good thoughts ...

I'm 36 (actually I got JKII for my 36th b-day, 1 week after release, so I'm quite nearly 37 ;-) and I play this game very differently now than I would have when JK1 came out, when Dark Forces came out, and certainly when I was pumping tokens in the Star Wars arcade game in the early 80's. I play like a Jedi - I really do. I feel completely immersed in the game, like no other.

Nice to see another old fella around here. I'm 28 and remember going through tons of quarters playing the old arcade games.

Uh...you realize it quite hard to mod SP when the frickin' code isnt even released to the community!! YOU HEAR THAT RAVEN, YOU GOT NOTHING!! /rant

JKII is pretty much a hardcore players/RPG game. All the casual players have left, and the hardcore players are only here to squeeze whatever is left out of this game until SWG rolls around. RPG is quite fun IMO but not very widely accepted, for some reason...

First of all, being in the software industry, I don't get why people are so hateful to Raven for not releasing the sourcecode. Now, I don't know if many other game companies release their source code, but I know in my business you are trying to get every advantage over your competators. Releasing source code is not the way to do that. They spent millions developing that code, and you want them to give it away for free so other companies can take advantage of it? The fact that they have released the MP source and development tools is already above and beyond what they needed to do. They have even been active on these forums helping people edit this game!. They didn't have to release anything. Besides, in SP you can make your old models, levels, and scripts. That already gives you a lot of freedom in developing new SP levels. I know there are things you can't do without it, but what do you really want the SP code for? I mean, AKPiggott is making something for SP that looks fantastic!

Also, how is SWG going to replace JO? They are two completely different games. I get the impression that people are expecting the wrong things from SWG, and are going to be sorely disappointed when it comes out. Do people think you'll be able to do FPS combat with lightsabers?

Yeah the push/pull issue is one that was always a problem in this game. Try to do a move that requires jumping, get pushed down and someone slashes you on the floor. With 1.03, you had people who'd pull or push to knock you over, then stab you with the ass-move. The whole thing got rather ridiculous. I think a better way to do it would be to leave drain and absorb as dark and lightside powers, respectively, but also add a "Force Block/Negate" power to the general pool of force abilities. So you'd end up with the kind of scenario where you can both negate each other's force abilities, so pushing and pulling isn't so much of an issue. This was true for the later versions of the game (1.04) it seemed, but in the end, that didn't matter since the sabre was basically useless.

Some other minor tweaks to improve the game: Shields do not stop a sabre. If you're hit with a sabre, it goes right through your shields. The sabre needs to be the most lethal weapon in the game, if only because it's the hardest to use (or should be, anyway) and because only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

As for the other Force powers, they were pretty cool, but again, seemed largely irrelevant after a while. Then again, maybe it just comes back to the way that sabre combat worked out and the fact that it was all just another DM variant.

As for how many people seem to want to play RPG style JO, I think that's an indication of people craving the immersive Star Wars experience, which JO just couldn't give them. So it got to the point where you have a bunch of people walking around in a server, bowing, nodding, using all their various emotes, etc., refusing to type-kill (and people abusing that system, naturally), etc. That isn't the point of JO. The point of JO is to fight. Whether you like the DM style of play or not (I don't, as you might've guessed), you have to admit it's pretty damn goofy to wander around chatting with people in a DM server. Don't get me wrong, though. I love RPGing, especially in the SW universe. But JO is NOT the appropriate forum for that.

I'm not saying that etiquette should be tossed out the window either, but some of the rules (IE: sabre down means you can't attack me, keyboard icon means you can't attack me, etc.) ARE pretty goofy, in some settings. But, again, I attribute this to the lack of immersion that the game provided in MP, which led people to make up their own rules to at least try to have SOME kind of immersive experience. Because we can't make the MP game any more immersive than it already is, at least in terms of mods, coding, etc., what we CAN control is how we relate to each other in-game. So some folks adopt a sort of Jedi code for behavior, which, to me, indicates that the game itself failed in giving them the Jedi experience they wanted.

See, this is why I think that a class-based game would've held people's interests longer. It provides for a more immersive experience. You're required to play as a team, you get to choose to specialize in a particular area, and no single class is the uber-class. Plus, you're not just fighting for personal score or kills (>yawn<), you're fighting in the context of a larger cause, even if that cause is simply blowing up reactor X, or stealing the plans to object Y or what have you. Plus, I think that classes would've made the game more balanced. IE: jedi have all the usual force powers and a LETHAL sabre, but eschew shields, bacta, etc. Gunners get access to all the technological goodies, but lack the ability to use force powers. Mixed players get a little of both, but are masters of neither. Or you do it by classes where each class essentially depends on each other in order to survive, thereby creating the NEED for people to work as a team. I dunno. I think a lot of this is wishful thinking on my part, but I really did see potential for this game.

I just hope if a sequel is made, that they learn from the MISTAKES of this game and get things right the FIRST time.

only Jedi or Force users should be able to use it. (IE: pure gunners don't get a sabre) This was one of the things that I liked about ProMod. You had to pick whether you'd be a gunner or a force user, and that made sense for the game's purposes.

:rolleyes: Kyle Katarn doesn't have to pick whether he's a gunner or a Force user.

JKO will be dead when NO ONE is playing it anymore, and so far that is not the case, or this conversation on this forum would not be happening. JKO was extremely popular when it came out because nothing like it had ever been done before, with the 3rd person saber views, animations, and choices of force powers. The force powers and Saber are what initially made and still do make JKO unique amoung all other FPS games.

The patches were just aggrivating to a lot of players and then the plethora of mods started coming out. All of this further divided an already thinning mp community. FFA and Duel were popular for a while but got old quick to many players fast and clans died faster than beers were being drunk at frat parties.

MP lost it's luster because the only goal oriented style of play was CTF. The bottom line wether Merc's agree or not, is the patches ruined CTF by nerfing the saber turning it into a gun only based style of play if you wanted to win, so even it lost its appeal. After all, Frag only fps games are a dime a dozen. More and more gamers want an objective based style of play instead of the tired old fragfest.

A lot of newer games in different genres have come out since JKO and many pc gamers moved on to them. Rarely is game of any genre relased that has a strong following for more than a year or two... except for a select few.

JKO is not one of them.

Role playing killed JK2.

More people want to pretend to be Darth Chewbacca than develop their skills and compete with the best players.

It may be a FPS at heart but it was turned into a third person RPG by the time the fans were done with it.

What are some of the most common things you hear in a game of JK2?

"Saber off = peace"
"Quit laming"
"My saber was down"
"Stop spamming that move"
"Omfg I was typing"
"No honor"
"Bow"



Look at all the mods that came out for this game.

Pro mod was a serious attempt to fix game play issues and make a better playable game.

3 servers run it.

Toss out any mod name that has emotes where you can spin around like a ballerina.

Hundreds are running them.

Star Wars fans are simply not die hard skilled FPS players.
Sure there are some who are and there were some great gunners and saber players who were just plain rabid when they played but that was the minority.

You can sit here and blame Raven/Lucas Arts all you want but remember one thing.

The only reason these patches got put out was to shut people up who whined and fired off 90 million e-mails complaining non-stop about one or two stupid moves.

The ironic thing is these moves were not a big deal but these people were too lazy and ignorant to spend maybe 10 minutes a day actually learning the game so they became frustrated because they did not feel like true "Jedi" after playing the game for only a few weeks and went on a letter writing campaign.

Look at almost every complaint thread on these forums.

"It's not like the movies".
"I never saw Luke spam kicks and whore back stabs".


Well duh, it's a game and not intended to be like a movie.
Maybe, just maybe some of us want a solid fast paced FPS and maybe just maybe some of us have no interest in pretending to be Darth Yoda and bowing to "show honor".

As far as I’m concerned Raven put out a damn near perfect game/concept and bunch whiny Star Wars geeks who have never even played first person shooters destroyed it.

As much as I enjoy Star Wars, I have never despised the fans more than I do now after what they did to an incredible game and a once blossoming community.

Well Shock............you are correct, and well informed 4 a newbie.

I think that is Homosexual Ewok...if it is Welcome Back!! :D

Careful, wassup! Don't blow his cover! :D

Shock's right on a level, but I think that it's not simply because SW gamers are not diehard FPS players. I've been playing FPS's since Wolfenstein 3D, and cut my teeth on multiplay with Duke Nukem 3D. I've played every iteration of Quake in one form or another (TF, WF, etc.), played the original UT for years, then got into RTCW, JO (briefly), and now BF1942.

The problem with this game, which is illustrated by the clamoring for patches, is the same thing that I keep saying: the immersion factor. Plenty of SW gamers would be happy to spend their time kicking ass as jedi, but they really want to FEEL like a jedi when they're doing it. Likewise, if they want to play a scoundrel or bounty hunter, they want to really feel immersed in the game when they're doing it. THAT is why you see the prevalence of RPG servers. People are trying to make this game immersive in a way that just isn't possible without frustrating the purpose of the game itself. This game is an FPS, plain and simple. No matter how hard you try, it will not be an RPG.

Now, FPS can still be immersive, mind you. RTCW had great atmosphere, as does BF1942. Those games really make you feel like you're involved in the environment. You're part of a war, on a mission, etc. I think a few things killed the immersion factor for this game.

1.) The patches. The 1.02 version of the game was never all that immersive specifically because of the uber-moves and bugs included, as well as the fact that sabre combat was essentially a jousting match (no one ever blocked). That's boring and not terribly immersive. It reduced sabre combat to whoever swings first with the toughest stance (usually red) wins. 1.03 reduced the game to a push/pull fest with backstab spamming. Again, not immersive at all. 1.04 added better blocking, but made the sabre a whiffle bat coated with styrofoam and no sharp edges (wouldn't want anyone to get hurt with the thing, now would we). Each of these patches also forced people to relearn the game, which meant that they had to re-immerse themselves in an already poorly designed game.

2.) The gameplay modes. Deathmatch is boring. We need objectives, we need something more to do than just beat the crap out of each other chaotically. 'Nuff said on this.

3.) The balance issues. There are so many little tweaks that would've made this game kick ass if implemented, but never were. IE: shields don't stop sabres, gun users can't use force powers while using guns, running backwards makes you move slower than running forwards (this was added in 1.04, but why so late?), sabres should be 100% lethal, etc. I'll say this: if I EVER design a game, JO will be one of the first games I look at as how not to do things. The game had tons of promise, but never paid off.

Anyway, all of these things led to me growing tired of playing the game. I don't want to play a boring mode of play (IE: DM), but if I do, I end up being torn between my loyalties to play styles. On the one hand, I believe in showing some respect re: honor, etc., but on the other hand, can we PLEASE just actually fight each other for a bit, instead of sitting around emoting and talking??? And when I do play CTF (which was rare -- boring maps, weak lightsabre, same-ol' same-ol' guns), I like to have a bit more of an interesting experience there.

Granted, the game may not be dead, but I'd hardly say it's thriving, and I think that the developers and design choices are the reason why.

gun users can't use force powers while using guns
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Terrible idea. Also completely out of line with the history of the DF series. As one mode of gameplay, okay, but to force this on everyone would be utterly stupid.

Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

I'm also not advocating that gun users get ALL guns or that force users get ALL force powers. Rather that the specialize in being able to perform certain tasks extremely well, but not be able to perform others. The Jedi medic can heal, but can't use force speed. The Jedi scout can use force speed, but can only use level one self-heal and can't use ANY team heal functions, etc., etc.

By the same token, the bounty hunter can use light blasters and maybe some entrapment techniques, and can fly, but can't wield any heavy weapons (otherwise, how the hell do you fly?). The smuggler can sneak around and use medium weapons, but can't fly. The assault trooper can use heavy weapons, gets tons of armor, but moves slowly. Etc. You get the point.

I think this would add real variety to the gameplay and make for MUCH more interesting gameplay, especially when set against the backdrop of completing a given objective or securing territory.

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

Originally posted by Solo4114
Why would this be stupid? It's perfectly in keeping with established SW canon. Jedi don't use blasters, much less missile launchers, etc. They use lightsabres and the force, plain and simple.

Uh, not plain and simple. Luke uses a blaster and explosives in Empire Strikes Back.

Originally posted by Solo4114
Granted, in the history of DF games (all two of 'em that included force powers), you could use both, but remember, in JK1, you could also use both dark and lightside powers throughout the game (until you had to pick a side). In JK2, in the single player game, you could use both dark and lightside powers THROUGHOUT the game. Take force lightning for example. strictly a dark side power, yet you could blast away with it against Desann if you wanted to.

Just because the SP portion of the game lets you do something is no reason to port that over to the MP game, especially if it'll screw up balance issues.

Isn't it? I mean, if you are allowed to do all these things in Sp, why shouldn't you be able to do them in MP? Players are going to want to be able to do the things they can in SP. But I agree that it has to be balanced gameplay.

Originally posted by Solo4114
I think people SHOULD be forced to specialize, at least in certain game modes. If you want a great big free for all with no limits on what you can carry, shoot, use as force powers, how fast you can run, etc., then leave that for FFA and Team FFA. But there definitely ought to be class-based gameplay where you have to give up some things to get other things.

For my money, I wouldn't have a problem with ditching the FFA mode altogether for the next game and ONLY having the gameplay be objective-focused and class-based. I know not everyone agrees, and that some people really do enjoy DM and such, but honestly, I think the times are a-changing in that respect. More and more people are being drawn from straight DM gameplay to objective/class gameplay.

Why force players into classes and eliminate game types? Why not just add these options? Don't impose your own preferences on others and force them to play that way. Just give people lots of options to play the game the way they want.

Mmmm, I think half the posts say EXACTLY the same thing.

Like the gameplay of Wolfenstein or Counterstike? Then PLAY Wolfenstein or Counterstrike. I like all the different ways of killing people in JK2, besides just shooting. Perhaps the lightsabers dont do enough damage, and that damn grenade launcher is broken, but I pretty much enjoy everything else.

I know Luke uses a blaster and explosives, but he's also not a Jedi in Empire. Maybe the way to do it would be to let you mix your abilities, but not be as skilled with the various abilities. That wouldn't screw up balance, I don't think.

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days. Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.

We definitely agree that balance is paramount in terms of game design and porting abilities from SP to MP. As long as it doesn't screw up balance, I think people should be allowed to do it, but balance must be preserved. And preferably not in the sense of nerfing all the weapons to the point where they're balanced, but rather differentiating the JOBS that weapons perform. And let's keep the weapon styles somewhat inventive, shall we? No more straight recycling of UT weapons. You can have mostly blaster weapons and still be creative. Or you can offer other hand weapons, such as vibro axes and knives, or force staves and pikes.

As for going and playing the other games if we don't like the gameplay of JO, well, that's kind of the point of this thread: that's exactly what people have been DOING and will continue to do over time, which causes the community to dwindle even further.

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?

I don't know if this game is dead or dying. For me it is
still OK game and pretty fun to modify and play...

But on the other hand I am a guy who doesn't play
many different games ( I play "only" these games:
JK2, AVP2 and also that "prehistoric" AVP1 )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

But whats wrong in JK2 (what may be "killing" it...)

I my opinion one of its most irritating things is its
cheat protection...

It DO WORK.. I mean i haven't met any cheaters
(or if i have then i haven't noticed them)

But at the same time as it prevents peoples from
cheating it also prevents me from using ANYof my
custom skins, models, ...

Originally posted by Solo4114:

As for forcing people to play class based gameplay, I won't mind if they leave in a DM style mode of play. That's cool by me, I just won't play it. What I'm saying is that if they ditched it altogether, I wouldn't mind either. And I think that a lot of people out there wouldn't mind, based on what games seem popular these days.Yeah, well a lot of people who have been playing and appreciating the DF series since its conception WOULD mind, so think it over one more time. Guh, the number of people who have popped up since JO's release demanding that others be forced to play their idea of the perfect game is sickening in its enormity.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Then again, if they wanted it, what the hell. Let 'em play. Doesn't matter to me, long as I can still play the class-based style.How magnanimous of you. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Anyway, does anyone have any other theories as to 1.) how to improve the game or 2.) what about the game itself has caused a decline in players?1.) There are many, MANY threads archived on this board FULL of suggestions on how to increase the probability that the next game will achieve competitive success. Anyone who wants to discuss this subject should first go back and read them all to fully understand the intentions and desires of the community.

2.) It was the stupid Star Wars fanboys that largely caused the demise of our beloved JO. It was they who made it unbearable for competitive players to populate the community, both by their continued Raven-lobbying to change the game into a foolish RPG, and their incessant whining on public servers.

Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum. But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y.

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere. What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game. And if you want to direct me to other threads, well, that's fine, but why not use this thread to collect, address, and examine the issues? It's also a fairly recent thread, as opposed to a number of the threads on this board (which also indicates a drop-off in fan interest), so I see no problem with continuing the discussion here. If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community? Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?

"1337" gamers? ah, those would be the ones that both the RPGers AND competitive players hate.

I've yet to meet a competitive player of any good skill who ever spams moves.

Anywho, i'm of the belief that if JK2 had been tested to the same extent as say Quake 3, or had a pre-release demo with multiplayer (ie so Raven were made aware of issues much sooner), then the game might have had some more substance.

The game was rushed and it shows.

I say we all quit JK2 and start playing TFC :) Woohoo!

Uh...TFC is even deader than JKII imho...

yes, TFC is dead yet there are constantly what, 400+ servers running it? and im one of those 1000s of players populating those servers :D .

Agreed. EXTENSIVE public playtesting is essential to a good game. BF1942 and RTCW both had public multiplayer demos released PRIOR to the final game's release and both made substantial improvements on the multiplayer aspects of the games. Granted, all companies tend to "rush" games out the door nowadays, but when you offer the public the chance to playtest and comment on the game, you give the public the opportunity to help improve your game. I'd bet that if they'd released a public MP demo prior to the game's release, and people had made the same suggestions for changes that led to the patches, the community wouldn't have been as fragmented as it ended up.

A very good point, DeTRiTiC.

As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there. ;)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Well, Al, interesting points, and a boatload of sarcasm, but let's look past the sarcasm to some of the substance of what you said.No, let's not look past the sarcasm, it was integral to the post, and made some of the most important points, simply by its presence. :)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

In response to your statement that we look at other posts, well, that's fine, but some of us might like to discuss it here as well, if that's quite alright with you. If you're a moderator and you don't like this thread, close it. Otherwise, thanks for sharing. We'll keep discussing things here.Oh, by all means continue to repeat and rehash things that have been said already in five-gazillion other threads by reams upon reams of people of varying degrees of qualification, if you want to. My suggestion that you should review pertinent past-threads was for your benefit, not for mine. If you want to continue wasting your own time though, feel free.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

As to the cause of the game dying being "stupid fanboys" who complained about the game to the point where competitive players were unable to play, and that they requested an RPG, well, you could easily argue that the death of the game was caused by stupid "1337" gamers who were only too happy to spam a particularly effective move over and over and over ad nauseum.I'll just stop you there, because it's not a subjective topic. 1.03 ruined the game, 1.03 was precipitated by fanboys, therefore fanboys were responsible for the destruction of the game. Quod Erat... You know the rest.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

But that doesn't really answer my original question, which was, if you'll read closely, what about the game ITSELF, NOT about the community, caused the decline of the game. I'm talking things like design choices, balance issues, environmental immersion, play modes, etc. Not whether folks whined to get X, or whored move Y. Well not to put too fine a point on it, but your original question was irrelevant. In my opinion there were only minor flaws with 1.02, and it could have become a truly successful competitive experience if it hadn't been for the premature advent of 1.03. It was that fanboy-portion of the community that caused the game's decline. You can surmise all you like about what flaws the game possessed, but frankly it was never given a chance to succeed on its own merits, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Throwing barbs back and forth at each other about why various portions of the community killed the game won't get us anywhere.Sorry to burst your bubble, but neither will this thread. As I've said before, it's all been done before, the game is deceased and our only hope is the next product in the DF series.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

What we should try to do is discuss what about the game itself was flawed, so as to illustrate how to AVOID said flaws in a future game.Why? Is the future developer of DF4 going to join us for the debate? If so, I'm all for it.

No, honestly, I am.

Originally posted by Solo4114:

If a mod disagrees with me, so be it. But until I hear from one of them, how about a little less vitriol next time and a little more constructive discussion about the game itself, rather than the community? Mods are here to enforce the rules, as you should know. To this extent, their actions are predictable.

Secondly, the community is pivotal in any discussion of why the game did not succeed, as a section of said community carries responsibility for its failiure. The section that wanted five-hour sabre duels. The section that wanted to make an RPG of an FPS. The section that wanted no guns on guns servers. The people that wanted to force their view of the game onto all other players, everywhere. In other words, fanboys.

As for vitriol, I'm probably more alkaline than acidic, as I'm confirmedly bitter. Colour me unrepentant too. I've seen it all before. :)

Originally posted by Solo4114:

Discussions of the community and its flaws will be endless, pointless, and divisive. Why not focus on common issues relating to the design of the game itself that most can agree on or at least debate rationally?If you believe that any aspects relating to gameplay balance are commonly accepted enough to debate rationally, you're misguided. This is another reason you should review past threads, as you'd see that nobody ever agrees on what needs to be balanced, nor on how much it needs to be tweaked. Gameplay balance is as subjective an idea as "fun", and any patch that changes gameplay, no matter how slightly, annoys some group of people.

A widespread malady of the mind in the gaming community today is the erroneous belief that "balance" is the holy grail of gaming. What does it mean? Different things to different people. Some people want all weapons to be equally powerful, and they call that "balance." The question of whether total balance is ever possible aside, what's the point of having different weapons if they can all be used as effectively as each other? In my day, powerful guns were an enjoyable focus of a level, the RL in Quake, the Railgun in Q2, the Conky or Surge in JK. Where did this "I want to be able to use my ST Rifle effectively against your Flechette" come from? What sort of whiny nonsense is this? There are different tools, use the right one for the job you want to do!

Some people think "balance" is the act of tweaking powerups/weapons until spam is not possible. To them, I say wake up. Spam is an act of lameness, and there will always be lamers discovering new and interesting ways to spam. You can never stop spam, ever, because you will never stop lameness. It is a fact of life, like lag, like whining, like oxygen.

A game should be devised, released, and after about half a year, a bugfix-only patch should be released. Gameplay is not a science, it's an art, and community involvement in gameplay-altering patches has never done any good. Ask Tribes 2 players. Ask disgruntled CS players. Games succeed or fail on their own merits, and they should be allowed to live or die on the basis of whether they're good or not. It's that simple.

So suggest all you will, suggest "balancing" tweaks, suggest game modes, suggest graphical improvements, suggest anything you like, and believe me when I say that I hope it does some good. I really do. I don't think it will, but I hope it does.

All the best to your worthy endeavour. :D

Originally posted by Solo4114
As for the "1337" gamers, yeah, those would be the people that everyone hates. The ones who are content to spam moves over and over if it gets them the win. GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves, the generally respect server rules (IE: no attacking when sabres are down), and they present skilled opponents that give you a good challenge.

Unfortunately, there's a boatload of "1337" gamers out there. ;)


Whoa hold up there.

"GOOD competitive gamers are actually able to make everyone happy, in that they don't spam moves"

Competitive gamers play to win.
Not to please or put on a good show, but to win.
No argument is even remotely possible on that one.

Go to any ladder or professionally sponsored game tournament and ask the competitors something like:

"Hey can you guys competing at QuakeCon not use the rocket launcher so much, it's spamming and not fair".

I bet after the laughter dies down chances are you would be escorted off the property.

Come on man, you made some good points in a few of those posts but I really hope that was sarcasm because that is just absurd.

As for respecting server rules on public servers?
That just comes down to the individual.
It has nothing to do with patches or game play "issues".
If a person is going to be a **** he will be a **** in JK2, the Sims or even Zoo Tycoon.


And as for “1337 gamers”.
When I play I play to win.
Sure I screw around and goof off in public matches, but in any ladder match or tournament I compete in, winning is the only concern.
Granted that does not mean one should go to any means such as client side hacking but as far as game play is concerned, anything goes.

This notion that “winning is not important” is just plain stupid.

Virtually every single competitive online game has some type of scoring system for a reason.
People want to win, it is human nature.

Slapping a label like “1337 gamers” on people who are simply trying to win is really childish and shows a lot of jealousy for those who do succeed in these games.

See, Al, I actually tried to be polite and such. I didn't want to get into a pissing contest with you, and I still don't. But you know what? You can sit around a bitch and moan about how fanboys ruined the game. It doesnt' make it true. What ruined the game was not fanboys bitching, but rather the way in which the changes they advocated for were implemented. 1.02 was flawed and needed fixing. Take the blocking, for example. The way blocking in 1.02 was implemented, it really was just a jousting match of who swung first, since you knew there'd never be any chance of your swing NOT connected. That's why a lot of folks asked for blocking similar to SP's method. Honestly, to me, the SP style of sabre fighting was the ideal, but it was never effectively implemented because each time they "fixed" the game, it created a new problem.

Adding a blocking element to the game made it decidedly more interesting than simply swinging your sabre around with no chance of it being blocked. Granted, the WAY in which the change was implemented was not good. The blockign went a bit too far, did not have any real logic involved in it (as ArtifeX proved with ProMod), and made the game less enjoyable.

There were other problems with the patches, too. The failure to fix the uber-ass-move was a BIG problem with 1.03. It led to people spamming that one move over and over and over. To me, that's the sign of a lousy game. When a game devolves into a one-move match and it's all a question of who draws first, I move on, as I suspect a great many people did. ArtifeX himself even quit after he realized that the game had become a simple one-move affair, and I don't blame him. A lot of people wanted the DFA fixed from 1.02 because it had no drawbacks to it, the same way that the backstab in 1.03 did. All you'd do was get into a group, spam the move, and watch your score climb. No challenge there, no real interest there.

Now, as for the issue of balance, it's not a question of "oh please don't use the big gun" or don't let there be powerful weapons. Nor is it a question of "let my toothpick beat your battleaxe." The way I define balance is that weapons have an advantage and a disadvantage to their use. The RL in Quake has advantages. It's incredibly powerful and can be used effectively at medium and long ranges. In close, though, it has its disadvantages. If you misfire the thing, or if you try to kill someone right next to you, you'll seriously damage yourself in the process. That's balance. Pros and cons associated with the weapon. In UT, the flak gun was another well balanced weapon. It was devastating at close range with the primary fire, and the secondary fire was extremely powerful as well. Yet, it had offsetting disadvantages: it's primary attack sucked at long range, and you had to accurately calculate your trajectory if you were going to use the secondary fire long range. Same with the ASMD. Great at long range sniping duties, reasonably powerful with the secondary fire, but the primary fire sucked in short range unless you were really accurate with it. That's balance. I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept to grasp.

In terms of how the game COULD have been (and SHOULD have been) balanced with sabre fighting, the various uber moves should've been devastatingly powerful and able to smash through most defenses with ease. Offsetting that, however, would be the fact that they'd have either a long recovery time, or taht they'd somehow leave you open for attack if you missed. These changes were implemented, albeit in a flawed way. Instead of being mostly unblockable, the blocking in 1.04 and 1.03 to an extent (with the exception of the backstab) blocked these moves a bit too easily.

Overall, in terms of force powers, I thought they were pretty balanced in the later patches. Dark side wasn't all powerful, and light side had no real offensive powers. Using grip was great, for example, except taht you'd better hope the enemy hasn't turned on absorb. Absorb's wonderful, but you have to use it at the right time, or else you drain it too far. Drain is great, but only if the enemy has force mana left. These are a good balance of advantages and disadvantages.

Now, as for competitive gamers, I was quite serious in what I said. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. There's nothign wrong with using particular tactics on a server, provided that server has rules that permit it. And I don't blame you for using a single move over and over, if you're on a competitive server and it's a no-holds-barred match. I find it boring to play against someone who does that, but as long as you're not breaking the server's rules, knock yourself out. The "1337" gamers I was refering to are the lame people who tend to disregard rules, do what they want, and basically ruin everyone's good time. I see this crap all the time in online gaming, and it basically comes down to people not respecting server rules or the other players in the game. My problem with people who spam moves over and over is that it makes the gaming experience much less fun for me. Now, if I'm in a competitive setting, IE: a ladder match, then it's likely a no-holds-barred situation and I've got to expect that to happen. Unfortunately, the game and the way it was designed only encouraged that type of behavior.

This was one of the crucial failings of JO. It never really balanced it's powerful moves. You could use a single move or a single combination over and over and over again and win most times. Or it'd simply become a question of who had better timing in using those moves. When a game is designed such that it rewards people for using a single move over and over, that's a boring game. You might as well just only have one or two attacks in that situation. ANd that's what really hurt this game, even from 1.02: uber moves. I'm not saying there shouldn't be powerful attacks, only that they should have a corresponding disadvantage. In JO, Raven never quite figured this out.

Al, you put 1.02 up on a pedestal and say that it could've been a great game. I disagree. I think that 1.02 was boring, in that it had very little strategy outside of timing your swing, and it had flaws in its uber-moves. I think that 1.03 could've been great, if the blocking had been implemented the way ArtifeX ended up doing it, and the backstab had been nonexistent. Had that been the version that the community got, I think that the real split that was seen in the community never would've happened, or at least would've been much more subdued.

Do I think that the devs read this board? Not really. Maybe they glance at it occasionally, but I doubt that they really follow it closely anymore. If they do, they sure are quiet about it. But see, there's this great thing called the "Marketplace of Ideas." It's the basic concept that if we keep discussing things, eventually, we'll get to a good result. So I'm going to keep on discussing this issue, until no one else really feels like talking about it anymore. Even if the people who develop DF4 don't read the boards here (though if I were going to make a game, I'd want to know what the fan community felt, however divided it was), maybe some other game developer does, and maybe they'll take a tip from the discussions in here.

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Whoa hold up there. [big long post].

Good players don't spam, they use attacks only as much as they need to. Good players may use individual moves a lot in succession, but that's not the same as spamming. Because with a good player almost every single shot is well aimed and will probably hit you unless you evade.

"Spammers" just fire non-stop without really aiming in the hope that they'll actually hit something, the problem with pull/push spamming is that it actually WORKS.

A Spammer is one of those people who doesn't get many kills, but they lag the server to hell and back with non-stop shots. In JK2 its quite evident with lightning users, since they keep firing even when they're not actually facing the target.