Originally posted by munik
Yeah, no sh*t. Thanks for pointing that out.
Read the passage I listed, then read the post before mine which I was refering to, then re-read the post I made the first time, then, very slowly, go back and repeat the process.
Now, the part where he says its a fact that it doesn't say whale in the bible, when in fact it does say whale in the bible...yeah, you know the post I'm talking about, you're probaly re-reading it right now...well, THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
Fer christs sake, he said the Bible, not the Book of Jonah.
Don't get all uppity and make put you back in your place again. It embarasses both of us. Now maybe you should take your own advice:
Ok now I don't want to start something but....
FROM THE NIV BIBLE: (This is the verse you pointed out)
Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So... yea
Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version.
Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible.
I was referencing to the King James Version. Also, stop arguing so aggresively, guys. No reason to hate eachother over a simple disagreement on something religious. Too much of that is already in the world.
Originally posted by C'jais
What the Bible says is irrelevant, as it cannot prove itself.
God cannot be measures or observed, meaning there's no reason to believe in him.
The fairy tale of Noah, while uplifting, is simply not true and can thus be discarded except as a moral reminder (which we can easily get from other, less false sources).
You can't survive in a whale's stomach, no matter what the Bible tells you, making it in fact dangerous to believe, as you'll be more inclined to wait for God to come to the rescue.
There's no air. There's no water. There's a very strong acid in the stomach that will immediately start to decompose and digest you.
Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN). What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is.
As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there. That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there." Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms. AND WHAT DID THE PEOPLE LAUGHING AT DEMOCRITUS BELIEVE IN? In the Phlogistan theory, which is: A theory stating everything has a substance called "Phlagistos" makes the objects flammable or not. Now, i may have gone off the beaten track a little, but God doesnt have to be measurable at all to understand God's presence. God gives us something to believe in. We can't believe the government will always be there. We can't have faith in George W. Bush. But we can have faith in God so we can have some aim and direction in our lives.
On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan.
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
Im sorry C'jais but you obviously heard only what you wanted to hear in my little speech earlier. I explained that the Bible is a set of parables (in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN).
Ah - "that probably did NOT happen". Good, very good. Go tell that to every single Christian on this board, as they obviously appear ignorant to this fact.
What im trying to get at is, well, it doesnt matter if there was a whale or not, or if Jonah would have died inside. The story of Jonah is meant to teach us something! Not revel over the fact of how impossible it is.
And the same goes for the dreaded Genesis? I pray it does.
As for God not being measurable. Just because God isnt physically able to be measured does not mean God isnt there.
For all intents and purposes, it does. What cannot be measured is completely irrelevant. There's no reason to believe something exists if there's nothing to prove it does.
If I waltzed around and postulated that there's a T-rex in my backyard and that everyone is really being mindcontrolled by evil, pink monkies from a far away planet, most people would likely demand some proof of that assertion. Clearly, the T-rex one would be quickly rooted out, as anyone can see it isn't there (unless it's being invisible and immaterial, of course). But the monkey one, that's tougher. There's no way to prove that we are not being mindcontrolled by monkies from Pluto, but there's also no reason to believe we are. When there's no proof, there's no reason.
That is a small-minded belief almost like people believing in atoms. "If I can't see it, it's not there."
FYI, atoms can be measured.
Ancient people mocked Democritus for believing in small particles that he called "atmos" that we now call atoms.
But the ancient people made the right conclusion, regardless of whether Democritus was right - there's no evidence to prove the assertion that everything is made up of small particles. At least, not at that time. This is really the same analogy as the one about the flat earth, and I already spent many paragraphs disproving that one.
However, it's important to remember that ones laughing at him weren't any better themselves as they believed in an equally worthless theory. There was no reason to believe in any of that crap, so the most rational stance they could take at that time was to simply dismiss any sort of theory dealing with things that cannot be measured or evidenced.
In short: there's absolutely no to go and make things up that cannot be empirically proven.
God gives us something to believe in.
Why oh why should we believe in something in the first place? I'm doing fine, and I don't believe in anything at all.
On a side note, all that stuff about Democritus and the Phlogistan theory is true. Go look it up, before you really think I am Crazy Ivan.
I knew the story. But it being true still does nothing for it being a very, very flawed analogy.
But let it be known that you can believe in whatever you want. In fact, I find your views on the Bible extremely sympathetic. They're way more advanced, and way better, than the brutish, take-no-prisoners approach with a completely literal interpretation that's all too often found here. I like it.
But you should also understand that you can never use the Bible or "God" as an argument for corrupting the school system and bending, even outright ignoring facts. We cannot risk the future of education to simple, petty beliefs, no matter which religion they come from.
Peace.
I totally respect your truth and knowledge. I never intend to preach or make more people Christian. It's more important to lay down the facts and let people decide. I just wanted to explain in a drawn out way, that not all Christians are hypocrites and vice versa. Even Jewish people can be hypocrites! Hah.......but anyways, I don't have a problem with non-believers. Most of my friends have never stepped inside a church. A ton of celebrities thank God for awards but do nothing to show their gratitude besides shout out his name at an award ceremony.
But I cannot stand Christians who use the Bible as a shield.
Enough said, my fingers are numb heh.
i cant believe some of the stuff that has been said on this thread!!!!
it sounds like some christians are even doubting the bible, why?????? like i said to C'jais before, when u say the bible isnt true, or a part of the bible, u are reallyy calling God a liar!!
WHY WOULD God SAY HE DID STUFF IF HE DIDNT!!! SOME PEOPLE DONT SEEM TO GET IT, WHY WOULD God LIE ABOUT HIMSELF, OR LET HIS PEOPLE READ A BOOK THAT ISNT TRUE!!!!
look crazy ivan basically you kinda *gave Satan a point* by saying the bible or parts of the bible are not true. ok the parables Jesus told were stories he made up, like the one about the seeds, and then the one about the father and son, things like that, those were the examples! everything else happend, the whole book isnt a parable or a group of parables!
So are u going to tell me there is no Elijah or Moses, or what about king David or Solomon, Samson, and Job!
God goes went through normal people, like Moses, to write down all that happend so we could learn. why would God tell a huge lie? huh? doesnt sound right to me!
God isnt a liar, the bible is true, and thats all need to say right now, yeah ive been sort of quiet in this thread unlike the last one, maybe i need to start preaching again.
God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man.
Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it).
Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread.
Originally posted by C'jais
God didn't write the Bible. Use the top of your head, man.
Please don't commence any preaching or bullying to other users. And don't even start calling one of the more sympathetic Christians in here a Satanist (I know you didn't, but watch it).
Do you believe the Genesis is real as well? It's a parable? Check the "History of our universe" thread.
yeah i got lil' mad, but after playing a quick game of JKII, im over it.
ok God, sorta did write it, he (or the Holy Spirit) went through the prophets and told them what to write, God didnt physically write it but he had control of what was written, and read today.
Bullying...lol...i still dont get what u mean by that....God called christians to tell his word, we are to go to all areas of the world and tell it. dont tell me what to do... and dont acuse me of bullying people, hey i didnt hold a gun top anyones head, and tel them to believe in God, did I? no if they or u dont want to read what i say then dont come to the thread or just skip what i have to say. :fett:
look, i agree with some of the stuff ivan said, but that part about the bible or parts of it being stories that are made up, i totally disagree with..... man dont let the devil confuse you! I dont see why God would sit there and have people wright things about him that were not true, God doesnt like lies....God doesnt do any evil, by saying parts things in the bible are not true u ARE calling God a liar, or saying he isnt real... i wont let anyone say that, God spoke to Jonah and told him to go to that city but he didnt... things happend.... in the end Jonah went to the city, by saying this is just a made up story to give us an example u are saying God didn really tell Jonah to preach his word in the city, you are saying God lied about that, God doesnt lie, name one lie God told!
by saying he gave satan a point i meant that sorta screwed up what witnessing has been done because u said the bible isnt true, thats just what every athiest and non-believer wants to hear, now u have given them a reason not to turn to God, just what the devil wants, he dont want anyone to go to God, its a war, a war for our souls, the more the devil drags down with him the more he laughs at God. now they have there excuse, any non-believer who reads this thread can say "well a christian said the bible isnt true, so why should i believe it"
yeah i believe in Genesis, the bible isnt here to give us a history lesson, its here to teach us, not to explain every little detail of life.
look God said it and it happend, hes God he can do what he wants, if he says its right im with him. its that simple. and none of u can turn me away from God. or tell me something isnt real that i know is.
Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark :D) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.
I never meant to denounce the Bible.
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
Earlier C'jais was explaining how logic can defy the boundaries set by some things said in the bible. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if Jonah could or could not live in a whale shark (I saw this video where it was a whale shark :D) I was pretty much agreeing with you Luke that its meant to tell us something. I am a believer like you! The Trinity--God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are things im trying to clear up for people. When you say I am calling God a liar hurts. Mostly because I love him so. But you have to realize that the "Bible Commitee" as my CHURCH called it, decided what books would go in the bible and which ones written by the prophets wouldn't. I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.
I never meant to denounce the Bible.
im very sorry... :( ivan i didnt mean it to hurt you.
it meant a lot to me for u to say this:
I respect your love and undying protectiveness for God Luke.....I don't see that much these days.
it isnt the first time ive said this to people, i told that to C'jais a few months ago, (december i think)
im just saying if u say the bible isnt true that means God lied in the bible, and so that means u did say that, if thats what u meant in the thing u said
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan
(in otherwords SHORT STORIES THAT PROBABLY DIDNT HAPPEN).
i guess maybe i took it the wrong way.
what i read in the bible is what happend. thats all i need to know.
Ok C'jais im not goin to argue anymore....the bible syas christians are not supposed to argue about the bible with other people, im leaving this thread and wont come back....because everytime i or anyone else tries to tell the word of God in any thread, C'jais is there and always tries to start something, look C'jais i dont care if u call me a bully, or if cuss or say whatever about me, (not saying u have). i dont care because im proud to receive persecution for God, Christ, and The Holy Spirit.
without God, i dont know what would have happend to me today.... who knows? i have nothing else to live for exept him, i keep living because i still have work to do, i still have to tell the word of God, i have to tell that Jesus died for us, and God will forgive us, i dont want to see anyone go to Hell, but people who dont know God will find out one day, when they bow down to him and say to Christ Jesus you are the Lord. yeah that will be an amazing day when Satan bows to christ, and says you are the Lord.
Just remember non-believers youve heard it here on this thread, and on many other threads. Youve also heard it on tv, the radio, on the internet, you know about God so there is no excuse not to turn to him! Its your choice, one day we will see who is right. anyone who does decide to turn to God by reading this or any other thread is free to PM me any questions they have, ill do my best to answere them.
C YA later
Lukeskywalker1
I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. :)
Originally posted by obi-wan13
I'm a christian too, and I don't want to see anyone go to Hell, but C'Jais is jst trying to argue his side of the case. No need to get all huffy about it. :)
I had to come back and give credit to Obi for sticking up for C'jais. Having been in on the thread earlier I know that was not easy ;)
We should cling to our beliefs but still respect others rights to cling to theirs.
Using the bible as ammuntion against a non believer is kinda vain. I believe the bible is the word of God, but if someone does not believe that then quoting it has no effect. I know you are gonna say "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17) which is true if someone is pursuing faith.
As far as the parable vs reality....Jesus did use parables as analogies for christian living (read Matthew 13:10,11) Chapter 16 of Luke starts with a parable. But the story of Lazarus (not the Lazarus raised from the dead, the one at the gate of the rich man) in verse 19 is not a parable because he names the person.
Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example....
If something that C'jais wrote was still around thousands of years from now, hmmm... it deserves at least a look. And if somehow reading that made me feel the actual presence of C'jais, hmmm...maybe there is something to it. And if pursuing that presence led me to see many miracles, and was powerful enough to make me (and millions of others) totally change to a new way of life, how could anyone deny C'jaisism?
Many would say "Oh, C'jais was just a man, a moderator on a thread about religion" and would slander him and those who believed in him. But those who did read his writings and did FEEL and get proof through personal revelation would still believe and share it with other willing listeners, and maybe...just maybe make a post about C'jaisism on a Gaming website ;)
I am a christian, but not out of choice. Seeing things in my life as I've grown up and watching how our world works today and what happens in it (most recently, the imposing war with Iraq), I have very strong beliefs against the existence of a God. God made this world, and he has the power to change things here. i don't believe in the fact that us good-natured people must be left to watch evil reign over us on Earth.
I actually went to church for the first time in a long while back on Christmas Eve, and a part of the Vicor's end prayer really made me think. She said something like:
"And we must thank you O Lord for how lucky we are in this time and place. We thank you for everything you have given us, and how lucky we are to recieve your love and kindness."
And I beg the question here: Is this the same God who provided and loved the thousands of innocent people dying in third world countries right this very second? If we have a God, I don't believe he is at all merciful. Why should we just be the ones who recieve everything from God?
I don't believe a word of it. Man worked, fed and brought destruction down upon himself. And when this world we live in is finally destroyed, don't blame God: we can only blame ourselves. I know it may be a diffucult concept to grasp, and a frightening one at that, but I believe and have accepted that we are all alone. There is no greater power out there to help us; it is only us. I would really like to believe that at the end of all of this, there will be someone to help us in our time of need, you don't know how much I wish that. But there is no one. That is why I don't go to church, and instead spend time with the people I love and care about. To me, that is more important than spending time praying for a miracle.
Miracles don't exist; only coincidences.
Originally posted by Darklighter
Miracles don't exist; only coincidences.
Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences.
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ever seen the movie "Signs"? The last scene is pretty powerful in explaining how there are no coincidences.
That's what I was thinking about when I said that:)Which proves my point even further...UFOs and extra terrestrials, another unproven mystery...like God, IMO. You know maybe God, and aliens and UFOs do exist, or maybe they don't. It all depends on whether you think spiritually or scientifically.
No I wasnt reffering to the aliens at all. Its just that, all that stuff that was there that was used to defeat it was not coincidence. :D
Hey Darklighter. If you don't believe in God how can you be a christian?
A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught.
you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.
like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT?
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
A christian must believe the Bible, because that is what the teachings of those who founded christianity taught.
you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.
And who do you believe founded Christianity?
Sure you can. You are just a bad one.
BigTeddyPaul
Mandolorian read Darklighters first sentence.
I am a christian, but not out of choice.
Which means that he probably grew up in a Christian family, but never believed. Don't be so hard on him.
About Darklighter; being "technically" a Christian is more of a rule than an exeption. That's what this thread is about.
Anyways,
I was on my wife's grandmother's (85th) birthday yesterday. Most of the guests were religious (Pentecostalists).
I sat there for 4Ѕ hours listening to the speeches and songs and felt like vomiting.
"Oh how God has blessed You and washed away your sins with blood, with blood that drowns the disbelievers and sucks them into the eternal flames of hell! May God Smite the wicked and bless thy with His benevolence. Ooh, we hear the grand song of the river of blooood that bursts through the lines of the sinful ones!"
:rolleyes:
I have serious issues with religion, that's for sure.
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
you can't be a christian but not follow it's rules.
like you can't be a professional hockey player and not be on a professional team. GET IT?
Yes Mandolorian, I 'GET IT'. Like I said, I am not a christian out of choice. I come from a very religious family, and my parents have high expectations of me to follow in their footsteps in terms of religion. Despite the fact that I go against everything they believe in. It's not my fault, just the way I feel. And I know how you feel Luc, I have serious issues too.
My advice to you Darklighter:
Think about what you parents really want of you. What is the point of it all? What do they strive for? Disregard the formal nonsense. Disregard the pathos (dunno if that is a word, but...if it aint, "forgetaboutit")
What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person?
>>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person.
A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic.
Does this mean that you should tell your parents to " **** " off?
No. A good person is patient. A good person does not intentionally hurt the feelings of his loved ones. A good person takes a deep breath and sais: I respect your faith in god and experience of life, but if you trust me, you will let me form my own beliefs.
What are *my* beliefs?
I honestly don't know. The rational part of me wants to choose the path of technically believing in God just to be sure, but live my life the way my brain tells me to. That is the most intelligent way: accept god, but don't let His words interfere with you deeds. "Saved for certain", right? ;)
My other half wants to embrace God, Buddha, the holy triangle, (just a personal thingie I came up with ~15 years ago) the all-powerful Saddam and North Korea's president Kim Jong-il (or whatever) who scored 11 consecutive hole-in-ones when playing golf for the first time in his life. (take that Woods!)
But seriously: if you don't force yourself to some stupid belief and let you mind roam free, you will come to the same conclusion as I have: religion insults my intelligence
That's a tough thing to say, I know... but... brains (which God supposedly gave us) and religion can not live peacefully together.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all religious people are dumb. I mean...I cling on to religion simply for the sake of the good impact it has on me and I do not consider myself dumb on any standard.
I question myself 24/7. If someone gives me a good reason to believe, I will. I *want* to believe because that would be good for me, but I simply can not force my mind to accept something that I can not rationally verify... I would intentionally lie to myself which would be ridiculous, hypocritical and useless.
Just because I have been right all my life doesn't mean that I might not be wrong some day. (No, I'm not being egoistic, I'm just stating a fact) I realize that.
(One of these days someone points out that I've made a typo or something and...well...that's about it. :D )
You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows.
Always question yourselves...dig deeper, that's the only way you'll find peace. :)
Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. ;)
Originally posted by Luc Solar
What is the ultimate goal of every Christian..no: every religious and sane person?
>>> To be a GOOD person. That's it; A good person.
A good person is patient, forgiving, kind, generous, altruistic.
Well, yes. And you don't need God to tell you that, as Luc has just demonstrated.
You should all read Cjais sig... it's more true than Cjais himself knows.
Thanks.... hehehe.
No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most.
I think I need to stress the "accept" part of it. There's a difference between acknowledging that you're wrong, and accepting it - to accept, you need to learn from it, and move on.
Now if you excuse me, I'll go and get another beer. ;)
And while you're getting a beer, here's an interesting article I found. (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2850485.stm)
Originally posted by C'jais
[B]No really, I do know that I'm not fully aware of that wisdom, with me being only 17 and all. I suspect I'll find it much more dear with age, as I'll get the chance to stand on my own in life, as I also suspect that this is where that particular insight will come in handy the most./B]
For Christ sakes! You are 17!! Are you kidding me??
You know....after reading a few posts from Skinwalker and others (Griff the rest of you guys) you notice that they think first, write second. That is a trait that comes with age and experience.
You say you're 17? Seriously? 17?
OMFG, STFU!? :confused:
I mean that in a nice way. You're the sort of a guy that I would vote for in 25 years. (Finland voted for parliament today, so it's a hot topic)
How the hell do you know English so well??? Have you lived in Brighton for the last 15 years or what?
Damn you Cjais - go get an IQ-test or something and leave us mortals alone! :D
EDIT: a special thanks to Skinwalker for all those excellent post about the Iraq-situation. :thumbsup:
I'm only 14 so how d'ya like THAT for maturity. :D ;)
And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country.
Same here, I thought Cjais had to be at least 20. Way beyond your years, you are;)I consider a lot of other people in here who are younger than me a lot wiser and knowledgable, including you Reborn;)Damn I didn't know you were 14, that is quite amazing:)I'm 16, and probably a lot less wise than you:D
Problem with me is that I'm quite narrow-minded, and won't readily consider the other side of the argument. Damn my stubborness:D
(Damn I can't handle compliments like this, but I thank you very much anyway :))
As for your questions, no, I've never lived in England. I used to go there on summer holidays, but that's as far as it went.
And no, I'm not terribly smart either - above average, but nothing outstanding. For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers :(
I can't really see what sets my apart from others really. I mean, I'm not in any way more mature than my class mates and I'm outright stupid at dealing with my own life.
Now, let's get back on topic ;)
EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120.
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
And C'jais, I thought you were like 35 or something by your mastery of the English language even though you are foreign born and live in another country.
Just so you know it, I'm 13...;)
EDIT: I took an online IQ test once and got around 120.
Perhaps you can try this one:
http://www.iqtest.com/). It's really easy though.
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Just so you know it, I'm 13...;)
13!i! I had you down as around 16...
Qui is my new poster child for tomorrow ;)
I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer.
Originally posted by C'jais
I tried the IQ test, but it required a credit card. Bummer.
It doesn't. As long as you give them your email, they will mail it to you after you've done it.
Being a Christian isn’t about following the “rules” of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. It’s not about being a “good person” either. Good is such a relative term. Besides, I don’t think there has been a single good person on earth ever. Not perfect at any rate. And if you are not perfect then how do you measure your good level? Is there an imaginary scale that you put little good weights and bad weights on?
Besides, being good isn’t hard… it’s impossible
The Bible never says you get something for being good (other than peace within your own spirit.) In terms of salvation it clearly states that that is a free gift. Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally.
Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.)
There is a God.
He makes a planet and everything on it.
He’s perfect in every way.
Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect.
No one lives up to this standard.
He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect.
Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son.
He gives you two choices:
1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you.
2. Get punished
I don’t see what’s so unbelievable about that. Does is make more sense that a higher power would make the universe and then totally forget it? If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do. The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible.
It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions? We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good. Most “Christian” churches today preach behavioral correctness. So you get this mentality that going to hell has something to do with bad behavior. If people went to hell because of bad behavior then everyone would go to hell.
What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being “good”. Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision. Sadly, Christian churches today forego what the Bible really says and opt to talk about being good and how hard it is. Again, being good isn’t hard, it’s impossible (at least to the standards of the God in the Bible.) So why do Churches talk about not “sinning”? Because they are morons. Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion.
It makes me sad because the majority of people who call themselves Christians try to share bits and pieces of the Bible as they (or someone they heard preach) interpret them. That gives everyone who doesn’t consider themselves a Christian a really warped view of what the Bible really says. If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that it’s not about following rules and that it really isn’t open to interpretation. It’s pretty plain. It’s hard to misunderstand its meaning unless you want to.
Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are.
So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.
I don't know about that IQ test... I got a 169 lol...
I see what you mean darklighter.
As for who founded christianity. It was Jesus who brought the teachings and doctrine, and then the twelve apostles and other followers of Christ put together the Bible and presented christianity.
But after Constantine legalized christianity all these other false teachings got mixed in with christianity and that's why you have Catholics and Jehovah whitnesses and other "Christians" who do not follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible.
Please excuse my spelling.
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Catholics
You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion)
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
You consider Catholics "false" Christians?! Hmmm... how so? (For the sake of discussion)
Can I discuss it even though I didn’t say it?
I have known Catholics that are Christians and Catholics that are not.
Just like I know People who call themselves Christians but really aren’t.
Although I will say, most Catholics I’ve seen truly discover what freedom in Christ means give up the “religious” aspects of their faith. Just as Protestants should. Religion is just a distraction from what faith should be.
As far as Jehovah’s Witness' go, they are just a cult like Mormons:)
Originally posted by ioshee
Being a Christian isn’t about following the “rules” of the Bible. So many people misunderstand that. It’s not about being a “good person” either.
...
What separates true Christianity from every other major religion in the world is that being a Christian has nothing to do with your actions. Every other religion is about working towards a goal of being “good”. Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision.
So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites. Not because they are perfect, but because true Christians never claim to be perfect. Everyone is equal. It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.
Ok. That was one excellent post, ioshee. One that evades most of christianity's pitfalls. :thumbsup:
Glad to have you in the Senate Chambers. :)
I wish I had time to comment on it....
Originally posted by munik
Well, I referenced the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Apparently, the Bible says whatever you want it to say, as long as you have the right version.
Aside from the absurdity of going in and surviving inside the stomach of any animal, I don't even think there is a fish that has a stomach large enough to contain an adult man. So, if it's a whale, that's at least partially feasible, but if it's only a fish, unfeasible.
Young dude you have egg on your face, after nitpiking Obi over a single word, for you to admit you only look at 1 of many bible versions is embarrassing. (what makes your version more accurate than any other?)
And I agree a human is not going to be living long in the belly of anything but there are several fish large enough to swallow an adult human. Not counting the sea going mammals.
The story of Jonah (in my opinion is a Metaphor),people sometimes gets swallowed up by ideas or concepts that take over their lives. And can in time, like Jonah escape from their constraints.
Actually, if you take that story and read the whole thing The Bible says its all true, not a myth or fairytale. Jonah survived because of a miracle.
Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name.
But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse.
as for catholics, Very few are christians, but of course it's possible.
But I liked what you said Ioshee, That is why I and christians from my church and my christian friends always say, Christianity is not a religion it's a faith.
And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence.
none of these things are in the Bible, exept for the Catholic Bible, which has two books added to it.
you see...?
Luc, thanks for the encouraging words. It’s always nice to know someone read your long @$$ post hehe.
Mandolorian54, I agree with you about the added stuff. I think that is wrong. I can't say I know a whole lot about Catholicism so you are probably more qualified than I am on that subject. I think that there are certain things about the Catholic faith that are biblical. It all depends on where you focus is. If it’s on Jesus, right on. If it’s on beads and candles and statues then wrong on. If beads help you remember to focus on Jesus I’m not going to say you are an idiot. (I’m using the word you in general. I’m not referring to you Mando54.):)
On the subject of Joanna and the FISH being unbelievable:
If you find that story unbelievable then you will probably find a great deal of things in the Bible hard to swallow (pun intended.)
I heard a teacher put it this way once. "If you can believe the first verse in the Bible, you shouldn't have a problem with anything else that follows."
So it comes back to an issue of faith doesn't it?
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
And Catholics are not christians because they teach things that go against the Bible. They used to only have the bible in latin, and it was forbidden for common folk to read the bible, because the church made all these false teachings, for example: holy water, praying to marry, purgatory,and selling of indulgence.
I will just ask you a question.
Why do you belive you have the right to judge who's christian and who's not? I thought only God could do that.
I notice a trend in this thread.....not by all, but many......
"I am right you are wrong, this is why"
None of us are in any position to judge right and wrong for another.....
Nobody can really be wrong because they are stating what they believe, or don't believe. If someone knows something is true but ignores it, that would be wrong. I don't agree with the teachings of Joseph Smith (Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russel (basis of Jehovah's Witnesses) but I would not tell someone who does that they are wrong. I would tell what I do believe and let them do the same. This is why I am confused a little about the whole Catholic/Christianity issue. There are definite differences and similarities between the two faiths, but to me they are obviously different. Just as JW's and Mormons have similar "Christian" ideals they don't claim to be Christian. So If you are Catholic and it is what you believe then be Catholic. It does not mean you are wrong, just Catholic.
The fact is, some people have a personal "spiritual" desire to believe in a creator, some don't. If someone has that desire, they may try several paths before they land on the one that fits them best. People without that desire still try paths, but for other reasons. Some people don't take any path, they just watch others go back and forth, but are only commited to being non-commital :p Sometimes the path you choose ends up being an "interstate" that only led to another path.
When you hunger to know the Creator, whomever He is, your path will be unavoidable. Til then, be you....the good you ;)
Your parents and friends will respect you for being the best you, or admonish you for being a bad you.
My personal beliefs are stated 2 or 3 pages earlier in this thread, as is my take on being "Technically Christian" :cool:
Originally posted by ioshee
Being good is just a side effect (so to speak) of having a relationship with the creator of the universe. First comes the faith then everything else in terms of behavior comes naturally.
So being a Good Christian is irrelevant, as long as you're Christian?
Let me get this: It doesn't matter if I'm an abusive alcoholic who likes to rape little puppies, as long as I believe in Christ? Wow. I never thought it worked that way.
So all the stuff about us being weighed and measured when we're dead, to see if we're "worthy" of standing next to Jesus doesn't really matter?
Ok just imagine this scenario (you can call it hypothetical if you want.)
There is a God.
He’s perfect in every way.
Because he is perfect he cannot be around anyone who is not perfect.
No one lives up to this standard.
He is perfectly just (as in justice) so there must be consequences for not being perfect.
Instead of punishing humans he makes a sacrifice out of his own son.
He gives you two choices:
1. Accept the fact that he did this instead of punishing you.
2. Get punished
I don’t see what’s so unbelievable about that.
That'd be all well and good as long as we actually knew that was what happened. We don't.
What we've got is a collection of scriptures (most written by the same, one man), all claiming the authors recieved divine inspiration. They're telling us that the Bible is right because it's divine. But who wrote the Bible? People did. People claiming divine intervention did. I could make the same statement:
I'm right because I say I am. I have the mandate to say I am right, because I am divine. Yet, I'm still just an ordinary human as far as we all know, so there's no way to test this statement.
Thus, it is circular reasoning, and thus we can discard this hypothesis (it's not even a theory) as we see fit. Thus your entire argument falls. Case closed.
He makes a planet and everything on it.
Now this is interesting. What if we found life on other planets? Would you then start reading the Bible as a bunch of metaphors, not to be taken literally? Would the whole Genesis fall on its behind because it's only dealing with this planet? Because, as you know, you can't add to the Bible...
If you believe there is no higher power then you have a better imagination than I do.
On the contrary, believing is an active feat of imagination, so that point is pretty moot.
The big bang theory is harder to believe than the Bible.
If only you had to believe in hard data and tested theories, this statement would be somewhat true.
No. You cannot believe in the theory of gravity, nor the theory of evolution, the atomic theory or the big bang theory for that matter.
It all comes down to an issue of pride. Are you too proud to think that your fate is not determined by your own actions?
Are you too proud to think that your fate is not utterly insignificant and that the universe's pityless indifference doesn't care what happens to you, and excuse this lack of realization by inventing something imaginary to look after you?
Your fate is determined by everything.
We are raised to think that we get something for being good and to be proud of being good.
No.
We are raised to see that our species can only prosper in a peaceful, calm environment. "Being nice" is not only a moral, it is downright evident that it is one of the better ways to survive.
Christianity doesn’t have a goal; it’s simply one step. A decision.
Sadly, some Christians in here are of the notion that it is "not enough just to believe". Preach to them instead.
Those types of churches might as well be any good-behavior teaching religion.
And those good-behaviour religions are the ones I'd like to live next door to - definately some zealot who thinks it's okay to do whatever he wants as long as he'll get to heaven anyway.
The crusades, the priest-supported slavery in the States, the eradication of farming communities in the Philipines, The dark ages, the killing of abortion-practicing doctors, Bush Jr.'s religious mandate to wage a war and the overpopulation in Africa doesn't ring the slightest bell?
If you read the whole Bible in context with just a teeny tiny bit of faith, you will see that it’s not about following rules and that it really isn’t open to interpretation.
Not open to interpretation. I'll remember that.
Tell me, was the earth created 6000 years ago? Does the Bible objectify women and condemn homosexuals? Is abortion murder?
Only by admitting that you are not good will you find goodness. Only by admitting that you are foolish will you become wise. Only by admitting that you are weak will you find strength. Not in yourself, but in the being that created you. Only by totally giving yourself up will you find out what you really are.
Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything.
Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind.
So I believe true Christians can’t be hypocrites.
That's an irresponsible way of explaining how your religion is morally superior.
Everyone is equal.
Explain the case called Mandalorian54, please.
It just comes down to whether or not you want to take a free gift or not.
That gift is in your mind alone.
Wanting eternal bliss is about as selfish as it gets.
Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Johna isn't the only person to have survived in the belly of a whale. I have read about another person, all though it was a while ago and I can't remeber his name.
But the book was titled "When Science Fails", if your curiouse.
Is this the story? (
http://ship-of-fools.com/Myths/04Myth.html)
Listen, there's no way you can survive inside a whale for more than 5 minutes without getting choked, disolved and digested.
Originally posted by C'jais
For all of my "mastery of the English language", I can't even get good grades on my English papers :(
Could that have something to do with the fact that you do them between 10 and 12 pm the day before deadline? :D
Fish/Whale: A whale is not a fish. If your version of the Bible states that, then your version of the Bible is silly... Buut that's not saying much. BTW, Obi, there is a fish big enough to contain a human in its stommach. It's a big species of shark. But it eats plankton, so I don't know if it could actually swallow a man.
And C'Jais: Don't mock the Phlogistone theory. It was based on empirical evidence: Things get heavier when they burn (burning is basically an oxidation that binds oxygen to the fuel, which of course makes it heavier. It was therefore suspected that inflammible materials contained a substance dubbed phlogistone, which had a negative mass and was consumed in the burning.
So the Phlogistone theory wasn't wrong when it was concieved. Sure, it was false, but that doesn't make it wrong.
It was, however, disproven definitively when some smart chap (can't remember his name, unfortunately) decided to use scales in his experiments, and found that a closed container containing fuel and air had exactly the same mass before and after the oxidation. Then the Phlogistone theory became wrong. But it remained false throughout.
Lastly, for the multiple arguements like "I am god, I am right, I wrote it down so why not believe me? what is the difference? I believe one version earlier was called C'jaisism. Just to use that as example....
Opium qualifies to all of the criteria in your example (note that I'm not compaireing religion to opium (right now), merely pointing out the obvious failings of the argument)...
Lol. I just tried the test you guys mentioned... This is what I got.
Thank you for recently taking the Self Discovery Workshop's IQ Test.
Because of the Internet's ability to mishandle transmissions, we are
reconfirming via email that your IQ Test score was: 155
(give or take a little for sloppy time-keeping)
Which is, in short, why I don't go for IQ tests.
Only by realizing that you are truly insignificant will you come to terms with your finite existence. Only by realizing that beliefs will bow before data will you discover the inner mechanics of everything.
Only by realizing that all religions are built on the same principles of circular reasoning will you open your mind.
Preach it!... Wait... I don't like preachers... Hmm... Okay... Make it public!
Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". :rolleyes:
I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. :p
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Don't know nor care if it was that same online IQ-test I took a while back.. but that time I answered every question (~5 options & 50 or more questions) randomly and scored 101. That's a bit above "average intelligence". :rolleyes:
No. That is average intelligence. There is both a spread and an accuracy on those things... But then again, your example serves fine.
I'm either incredibly lucky or the test sucks....and I don't believe in luck. :p
"I attribute my entire success to luck... But I find that I am more lucky when I've practised."
Unfortunately I can't remember who said it.
But I definitely think that luck exists. Only it is extremely subjective.
For example, you could take this situation: I lose my wallet with 100Ђ in it. Some guy finds it. Is this chain of events lucky or unlucky? Bad luck for me, I'd say, but fair luck for Jhon Doe.
BTW: I'm 16 for whom it may concern. But I don't plan on staying so, so the validity of that comment will probably cease to apply over time.