Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I dont think that the Old Testament is horrible at all, have you ever read Psalms. Psalms contains some of the most beautify poetry ever written.

Have you ever heard about the Sirens? Beauty and savage cruelty may well go hand in hand.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
You say that it (OT) is cruel and barbaric,

[...]

but when they came back to Him and asked his forgivness.

Have you ever played Black & White? Do you know what alignment a god like that would get?

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Yes New Testament Law supersedes that of the OT but that does not mean that we should throw all of its teachings out the window. It is still the Bible, the Word of God and it should be followed. The reason that we are not "struck down by a bolt of lightening:)" is because we now have Christ intervening on our behalf.

Then why shouldn't we throw the Bible out of the window? I've done that, and I've lead a fine life up to this point. If God's fury is kept at bay by JC, then why should we worry about God? Unless JC is a racist kind of guy?

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Very true. But those communities do not represent the Christian Community, in fact they are the exact opposite.

A commonly held misconception amongst Christians. Christianity was just as barbaric (and still is, only now it can't do as much damage) before the Age of Enlightenment, where Northern Europe threw down the shackles of Christianity, and gave that same oppressive regime a good kick in the arse, from which they thankfully never recovered. The best thing that can happen to a religion is a good, long oppression.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I know what you are going to say, to just look at the Jews and all the crap that is happening over in Israel at this time.

No, actually I would suggest looking at Northern Ireland for a start. And then to the Bible Belt second... And the Crusades and the Inquisition for some historical depth.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I dont even consider most Catholics to be Christians,

An acedemic debate.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Yes is does and that still stands for today, and not just in the OT.

What planet did you just drop down from? I'll **** anyone I damn well please (assuming that they want to, of course, along the guidelines that Luc posted), and no pious nonsense is gonna prevent me from doing it.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
When you start to take the Bible as partially true then you are destroying the whole concept of it.

More power, then, to those who critically interpret the Bible. Better yet, more power to those who try to counter its bad influence.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
You start to take only the parts that are fun and lovey and get rid of the rest. Whats the point of believing only certian parts that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

There is a point to promoting your faith that way. If, God forbid (so to speak), Christianity ever returned to power, we would see a quite different picture. Or rather, we would be shown a quite different picture, because seeing for ourselves might make us think for ourselves...

From the Link
From science, we know the true order of events was just the opposite.

How do "we" know the true order? How do "we" know that Carbon dating, and other methods are true?We do not. I find this an invalid and pompous remark.

This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program


Maybe, in fact, most likely, this part is referring to a spritual nature. Science cannot penetrate a spirit, or anything spiritual. And do not use an example of ghost hunting as a counter-debate, because that is just silly.


The use of the plural (us, our) implies that there is more than one god, contrary to many monotheistic biblical statements.

This was in response to the Bible verse: "Let us make man in our own image."

There is only one God of Israel, One God of Earth. God was talking to The other members of the Trinity; Jesus his son, and The Holy Spirit.

I could go through that site you linked me to, and provide an explanation to their interpretation of the Bible, but that would take many many days, probably months because they do this to the entire Bible. I could argue against them, and have valid arguements, but it would take too much time. I believe what I have covered thus far is good enough for now.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
This is from that website:

[...]

Thats not facts or contradictions, its just someone trying to be smart.

Point. Still, the site as a whole is very interesting, it does have some shortcomings, of course, I'll be the first to admit that...

But if you want some obvious nonsense taken right from the pages of the Bible, look at The Whole Silly Flood Story (http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/flood.htm), from Creationism Revisited, or Things Creationists Hate (link in my post).

Of course this is not a contradiction in the Bible, but rather a contradiction between the Bible and common sense...

How do "we" know the true order? How do "we" know that Carbon dating, and other methods are true?We do not. I find this an invalid and pompous remark.

Aah. Apart from the "know", we actually do. We don't "know" anything. But our senses (science) tell us that it is so. If you want to see the full, scary perspectives of refusing our senses I suggest that you read 1984, in which it is brilliantly explained.

Maybe, in fact, most likely, this part is referring to a spritual nature. Science cannot penetrate a spirit, or anything spiritual. And do not use an example of ghost hunting as a counter-debate, because that is just silly.

If it cannot be penetrated by science, then it cannot exist, because science can penetrate all that exists. The "spirit", apart form being a comic strip (but then it has a capital S), cannot possibly exist, as all the things normally associated with the "spirit" (emotion, thought, ect.) are biochemical functions in our brains. They have even, to a great degree, been located. Kill the brain, kill the "spirit".

Also, if it refers to a "spiritual" thing, then why doesn't it say so?

And Ghost Busting is silly, any way you look at it, so no, I will not use that as a ripostй...

There is only one God of Israel, One God of Earth. God was talking to The other members of the Trinity; Jesus his son, and The Holy Spirit.

But OT is a Jewish text... Judaism didn't recognize JC or the "Holy Spirit" last time I checked. Anyway it may just have been a "royal plural", so that part of the site doesn't really count.

I could go through that site you linked me to, and provide an explanation to their interpretation of the Bible, but that would take many many days, probably months because they do this to the entire Bible.

I am not arguing that you have to check every minor detail, because that would be just plain demagougic, but I have found a hole in one of your counter-arguments, and in the meantime supplied you with more fun (Things Creationists Hate)...

This is from a website that explains why evolution couldn't have occured... for more on this... go tothis website (http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/ev_origins.html)


Many mathematicians have looked at probability science for help with evolution. Could it have occurred by chance? Below are some numbers. To illustrate the magnitude of these numbers, for the sake of comparison, be aware that the number of electrons in the universe is believed to be 10 to the 80th power.
Mathematician William Dembski calculated that if the probability of something occurring is less than one in 10 to the 150 power, it has no possibility of happening by chance at any time by any conceivable process throughout all of cosmic history. He further estimates that the probability of evolving the first cell is no better than one in 10 to the 4,478,146 power.
In regard to the universe occurring by chance, researcher Hugh Ross explains that there are actually two sets of odds that interrelate: first, the unique characteristics that must be fashioned to explain the earth's capacity to support life, and second, that life could arise even on a suitably configured planet by random chance. He calculates the odds for life as remote as 1 in 10 to the 100,000,000,000 power
Yet some say that, well, given enough time, evolution could occur. But it would be like saying that putting the parts to a computer in a washing machine, and given enough time that they will assemble themselves into a functioning computer. It won't happen—no matter how much time.
Mathematician/astronomer Fred Hoyle put it this way. He said that the probability of evolution creating the living world by chance is like believing that "...a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."
Denton concludes that probability science comes "very close to a formal disproof of the whole Darwinian paradigm of nature. By what strange capacity do living organisms defy the laws of chance which are apparently obeyed by all analogous complex systems?"
Evolutionists have been faced with such figures for many years. If they could come up with a number within the realm of possibility, they would be crowing about it. But they have not been able to do so. Life was designed; it did not evolve. The correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 10 to the 4,478,296 power to one.
There is one thing we can say further. Given the probabilities against evolution, if evolution did occur, it would constitute a miracle—convincing proof of God's existence.


(NOTE****: These forums don't allow the power symbols to be written such as 2 to the 2nd power as 2 squared... that why I had to write 10 to the ........ power.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Yes I am a christian.

I am a Baptist to be exact.

and I don't beleive you should be baptized as a child because you are supposed to be baptized as a public statment that you have faith and want to be a christian.

I actually spoke to a priest about that once (not kidding), and he said that the I-don't-know-what-it-is-called-in-English ceremony around your fourteenth year of age is where you declare yourself a Christian. I am also against Infant baptizing, but I am against it because it, like circumsicion (how in the name of God do you spell that?), is violating the child.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
When your a baby you don't have faith you dont even know you exist yet.

A baby knows that it exists, alright, just try to leave it for a few seconds...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
How many of you remember being baptized? You only know your baptized because you were told.

And you only know about God because you were told... Interesting...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
I am against abortion, infant baptism,and women preachers.

And therapeutic cloning that can save people's lives too, I bet...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Catholics,and Jehovah witnesses are not christians even though they call themselves christians.

Catholicism is just the first major branch of Christianity to rise... Of course they're not Christian... JW: Why are they not Christian? They believe in JC, don't they? They believe in God, don't they? But they give Christianity a bad name, so of course they aren't Christian. Anyway, it's an academic debate: Its a religion, and should therefore be abolished.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
And Christianity is not a religeon its a faith!

Check your dictionary. Faith is an act of idiocy. Religion/theocracy is a form of government. Christianity is not an act, though it is, by any standard save its own, idiocy...

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
And duh you have to believe in the Bible to be a christian, thats like saying I don't believe in Christ but I'm a Christian.

You can believe in JC without believing in the Bible. But I don't want to get into that... I'll let you tear each others' throats out until a MOD steps in...

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar

1:If it cannot be penetrated by science, then it cannot exist, because science can penetrate all that exists. The "spirit", apart form being a comic strip (but then it has a capital S), cannot possibly exist, as all the things normally associated with the "spirit" (emotion, thought, ect.) are biochemical functions in our brains. They have even, to a great degree, been located. Kill the brain, kill the "spirit".

2:Also, if it refers to a "spiritual" thing, then why doesn't it say so?


3:But OT is a Jewish text... Judaism didn't recognize JC or the "Holy Spirit" last time I checked. Anyway it may just have been a "royal plural", so that part of the site doesn't really count.


1:Not true. Science cannot penetrate love, and it exists. Science cannot penetrate very deep space(not yet any way), either, but it too exists.

2: It does not say that it is a spiritual thing, because God did not intend Mankind to question him as they have many times, and will continue to do so. He just wanted us to have faith in him, and trust what he said.

3: Some jews back then accepted Jesus as their massiah, and followed him. However, in the end, they turned their back on him. That is in the Bible also. However, it may have just been a sign of respect, the pluralism, meaning God was so powerful, that God was mistaken for more then one. I wasn't around back then, so I cannot vouch for that.

;)



Faith is an act of idiocy


No, Faith is knowing he will. ;)

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
This is from a website that explains why evolution couldn't have occured... for more on this... go tothis website (http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/ev_origins.html)

Of the four subpages on the site, the first should be easily done away with by a quick search on www.sciam.com). Cunduct a search on the words "15 answers", and the search results will come up with an article called "15 answers to creationist nonsense". It answers all the so-called points in aforementioned part of the site, and more.

As for the text you copy-pasted into your post, the issue of probability is... well, not too terribly well represented in it. Firstly: He doesn't specify the size of the system that he is looking at or the timespan during which he is looking. That way, I could make the probability of the Bible ever being written lucrediously small...

How? Simple: I can say that the probability of the Bible being written by one man in an hour is 10^somehugenumber to one. Then I remove the specifications of time and size of system, and get this net result: The probability of the Bible ever being written is 10^somehugenumber to one. The guy who wrote this is nothing but a simple fraud.

One part that I would like to point out in particular is this:

"Life was designed; it did not evolve. The correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 10 to the 4,478,296 power to one."

Blatantly false. Life could have existed always. There is exactly the same amount of evidence for creation as for always-been: None. This is a classic example of how statistics can be abused. And it DOESN'T HOLD. Period.

In the opening statement the site claims (amongst other nonsense) that:

"As evidenced by a wave of recent books on the subject, there is a growing uneasiness in the scientific community about the validity of Darwinian evolution."

Sorry, but popular litterature doesn't mean that there is any "growing uneasiness" anywhere. In fact, as 15 Answers states, the facts are exactly opposite.

"Many scientists and philosophers are taking a fresh look at evolution, and based on the latest evidence are raising huge questions."

Anyone who puts scientists and philosophers in the same little box obviously knows nothing about either.

The site is, in other words, totally and utterly useless fraud. In all respects. Only a creationist or a fool could possibly be persuaded by it.

Using scientifically-sounding words doesn't make science (as evidenced by the creationists who keep using the 2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-nonsense).

Another good example of the limitations of your accounts of probability is illustrated by this example: If you arrange a cubic foot of sand in a cubic foot of space, what is the probability of that sand ending up in a neat cone on a windless day? Not big. At all. Yet is does. Because it is not arranged randomly.

As any high school student can probably tell you, some chemical reactions occur more willingly than others. You will not, for example, see aluminiumoxide (Al2O3) will not split up to aluminium an oxygen (Al and O), and hydrogen (H) is far more reactive than helium (He). Some reactions are more willing than others.

One major reason why I think that all of these probabilities that are hung out, seemingly at random, are invented, is that it is simply not possible to make that calculation. There are too many unknow variables. And again: The calculations are not complete. Lots of information about the basis for them has been left out.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
Not true. Science cannot penetrate love, and it exists. Science cannot penetrate very deep space(not yet any way), either, but it too exists.

Love is a biochemical reaction that ensures reproduction. It has been penetrated.

Deep space is also understood, and therefore penetrated.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
2: It does not say that it is a spiritual thing, because God did not intend Mankind to question him as they have many times, and will continue to do so. He just wanted us to have faith in him, and trust what he said.

"DO WHAT I SAY OR BURN IN HELL!" -God :rolleyes: "Sieg Heil" -Hitler

Originally posted by obi-wan13
No, Faith is knowing he will.

And if I have faith that pigs fly, will that then be less idiotic? There is the same amount of evidence: NONE.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar


1.Love is a biochemical reaction that ensures reproduction. It has been penetrated.

2.Deep space is also understood, and therefore penetrated.



3."DO WHAT I SAY OR BURN IN HELL!" -God :rolleyes: "Sieg Heil" -Hitler



4.And if I have faith that pigs fly, will that then be less idiotic? There is the same amount of evidence: NONE.

1.Really? I thought love was a feeling that a person has when he/she encounters another person he/she fels deeply for.

2. Deep space has not been understood, the arrogant minds of scientists just say the understand it.

3.God wants us to be obediant yes, but just by not doing what he says doesn't mean you go to Hell. Not accepting Jesus as your savior gets you there. ;)


4.Who cares if you have faith pigs fly, we are discussing the truthfulness of the Bible, not ol' Mcdonald had a farm. ;)

BTW, why are we debating? I am not going to change my mind, and you probably aren't going to change yours, so we sort of cancel each other out, no? ;)

Originally posted by obi-wan13
1.Really? I thought love was a feeling that a person has when he/she encounters another person he/she fels deeply for.

There is an entire thread about this subject. I suggest that you go there.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
2. Deep space has not been understood, the arrogant minds of scientists just say the understand it.

And the arrogant minds of the fundamentalist thinks that it has found the truth... The difference is that the scientist has proof, whereas the fundamentalist has only his own folly.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
3.God wants us to be obediant yes, but just by not doing what he says doesn't mean you go to Hell. Not accepting Jesus as your savior gets you there. ;)

One question: Where is the evidence. Keyword: Evidence.

Originally posted by obi-wan13
4.Who cares if you have faith pigs fly, we are discussing the truthfulness of the Bible, not ol' Mcdonald had a farm. ;)

You do not answer my question: Would the statement: "Pigs fly" be any less idiotic if I believed in it?

Originally posted by obi-wan13
BTW, why are we debating? I am not going to change my mind, and you probably aren't going to change yours, so we sort of cancel each other out, no? ;)

I never debate because I want to change the mind of the ones that I debate with. Because, as you say, they aren't gonna change their minds during the debate. I debate for the sake of the listeners, and in order to (hopefully) instill some independent thought into the heads of the more stubborn zealots...

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
If you can't ask questions and get logical answers, it's not worth believing in. Everyone should be able to back up their beliefs with arguments. Otherwise, it's not worth believing in.

Which excludes all religion, and, basically, is not belief. Belief is thinking that something is right without having proof. If you have proof, then it's knowledge, not belief.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
Now, I have found that Christianity is the only belief system (philosophical, theological, and otherwise) that is able to answer my questions adequately. And yes, there was a time when I doubted the religion, but it was because I was able to get thorough and logical answers that I stayed with it.

What questions did you ask it?

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
The Testaments:
The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies.

This is an interesting piece: JC knew those prophecies, and actively sought to fulfill them, according to the Bible... Which kinda equals having a prophecy that says: "X will kill Y at Z time", that X knows of. If X then wants the prophecy to appear true, then he would just have ot kill Y at the time Z.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
And about that 'no sex before marriage' thing: it's still valid. Just because we can do it more safely than in their times doesn't mean that we should. Sex is a precious thing, a sign of commitment to a partner, not just a 'good time.' After sex, what is the most intimate thing a couple can share? Answer: not much.

But it is not a law. No governmental agency can punish you for doing it. Nor should any governmental agency be able to punish you for pre-marital sex. Period.

Originally posted by Maverick Knight
Summary:
Don't judge Christianity or any other religion by the people who practise it. Judge it by what it says at its core and how well it applies to the real world.

Don't judge Communism on the practitioners. It isn't bad just because it killed one hundred million people. One should look at the core writings... The logical flaw is obvious. An organisation, and a type of government, should be judged based on how it is applied, not what it says. Actions count, not words. Words are free. Actions are not.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Its a relationship with Christ as a personal Savior.

It is a barbaric mode of government that has committed genocide. Nothing more. Imagine a soldier grabbing a little baby by the legs and beating its head against a wall until its skull splits open, and you will have just about the right picture of what Christianity has accomplished.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
I never said that interpreting the scripture was wrong. Yes we can look at the Bible and compare it to modern things. But we cannot twist it around until it makes us happy and says what we want it to say.

Strangely, that is what it has always been used for.

Originally posted by Rogue_Ace
Technically no one is innocent. We all deserve what we get, we are sinners, no one but Christ was perfect. Its only by Christ that we do not get the Wrath of God. Thats not to say bad things never happen to Christians, God lets things happen for a reason and who are we to say any different.

In other words: Bow to your rightful king. He has been installed as supreme dictator by God himself. Who are you to question your position. Sorry, but that world-view became obsolote centuries ago. And the Bible was obsolote before it was even written.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
cjas you have a lot to learn about christianity, only a non christian could think of it that way.

In what way? Based on what it has done instead of what it says? But that is the only rational way to look at it.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
unlike other religions you are not a christian for believing.

Then what does make me Christian?

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
but do you even care, or would you rather ignorantly believe what you want to? Or would you know the truth?

DO NOT DARE TO SPEAK OF TRUTH, when you do not even have facts.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
you say who am I to say who a christian is, I'm only saying what GOD said.

What the Bible (read: An obsolote, useless collection of random rants, written to impress fools into following Paulus' lead) said.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
I give you this link:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html)

LOL. Good site. Very amusing...

Originally posted by Luc Solar
(Btw - what the hell does "holy" mean anyways?)

Pronounced holy by some other holy person. Who is usually self-appointed.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
There's some things all religions have in common:

None of them can prove $hit, yet they all are 100% sure that only they are right while everyone else is wrong.

Seems kinda silly to me. :D

YES! YOU SAID IT MATE!

Originally posted by Luc Solar
This is one thing I can't understand. This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions? He thinks we are sinners and should burn in hell because of something that happened thousands of years ago...something that we can in no way correct anymore?

Conclusion: God is a sadist.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
What about the whole basis of Christianity: God sacrificed Jesus. Because Jesus died, we are all forgiven.

If you think about that for a moment, it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

WHY would he sacrifice his son? Couldn't he have forgiven mankind without doing that?

What good did it do? Did God think that he'll lay some sort of guilt trip on humans so that we'd behave?

What good did Jesus' death accomplish? He suffered and we got our sins forgiven, which God could have done anyways without horribly torturing his only son.

It all sounds great when a charismatic priest says it in a beautiful church with the choir singing in the backround, but... it makes no sense if you think about it.

To tough questions all religions have their patented answer, naturally: Who are we, puny humans, to criticize something all-powerful, all-knowing like God?

God knows best and if you don't "get it" you're just dumb.

Well, I for one have a problem with that.

Still.. I do consider myself a Christian. I'm living a good life and if I'll burn in hell, you can count on burning there with me. :D

This is so good. Everyone should read it. Given the last few responses to this thread, I believe that some of you could do with reading it again.

BTW: See you in hell, Luc.

Wowzers....lots of stuff I don't understand going on in here...

I'm just here to say my two cents, however petty and insignificant it may be...

I was baptized an Episcopal. Albeit, I barely know what my religion is; I've been in a church about twice in my life.

I seem to believe what I choose to believe - I've paved myself my own religion in a way.

Science and religion will never mix - and can be viewed on either side. But, science viewed by man, is based on what we view as true. What is the truth is not known, also showing that we could be entirely wrong, and meaning we can never prove God to be non-existant. If anything, doing so proves God exists. But I'm starting to make less and less sense....

I digress....

That's just my opinion. Please no painful disections of it - I have no reason to debate with anyone.

I just have one thing to point out to all you folks whos entire argument is based on science, is that, if i am correct scientists believe that what has happened will continue to happen.... correct? So since life has evolved before it is going to keep evolving etc. etc.

Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct? Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct? SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat. :D:cool:

And perhaps THEY will prove the existance of a God.....and then again they will laugh at us for not believing.......just a thought.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
I just have one thing to point out to all you folks whos entire argument is based on science, is that, if i am correct scientists believe that what has happened will continue to happen.... correct? So since life has evolved before it is going to keep evolving etc. etc.

No all right, but not all wrong either... Science predicts that the laws of nature don't just change overnight. That will suffice for now.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct?

False on all counts. First off: There were no scientists 500 years ago. And if there were, they would not have thought that they knew anything to be true.

The notion that in the Middle Ages people believed Terra to be flat is, I think, propaganda invented by later times in order to make them look stupid. But nevermind.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct?

No. Many things that they though have been proven wrong. And, again, they didn't have science at that time: It was invented in the mid-19th centuary (and caused the Church a severe pain in the arse, too).

Originally posted by ET Warrior
SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat. :D:cool:

Again, noone believes in evolution. Keyword: Believes. It does not need to be believed: It can be observed.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
And perhaps THEY will prove the existance of a God.....and then again they will laugh at us for not believing.......just a thought.

Highly improbable: God would just be classified as a suffeiciently advanced ETI.

To all you who says that Catholics aren't really cristians: Either all who thinks of themselves as christians are christians, or none are christians. It's that simple. You can't go on saying "I'm christian, but because the others don't practise it the same way as me, they aren't".

Now, 500 years ago what did scientists KNOW to be true? That th earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe, correct? Nearly all things that people back then knew by science have been proven to be wrong then, correct? SO....in 500 years, will people be looking at us and saying....Wow.....those people were so STUPID! How could they POSSIBLY believe in evolution? That's the crappiest theory since the earth being flat.

They never knew anything, they just assumed it. Nowadays, scientists get evidence for their theories, there's a huge difference. And BTW, christianity has certainly not helped people gaining facts about the world.

I would like to submit my insight regarding some of the questions raised above.

First of all, great post Luc!! ;) You opened yourself up to get some answers or at least others opions and that took some guts.

Regarding the first line of the post:

Christianity differs from other major religions quite a bit.

So true. Christianity says that Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven. Having Him in your heart will help you through this walk of life, and help Him if you let Him work through you to reach others who are lost.

Lost are not necessarily those who do not believe in Christianity, but those who do not belive in life after death. Once you believe in life after death, God will lead you to Christ so that you have the choice to accept Him. (read Rev. 3-20)

Am I Christian? I suppose so, technically anyway. I'm Evangelical Lutheran (sp?).

A person cannot be a christian simply because they were raised by christian parents, or baptized, etc. It is a choice each person will make.....accept Him or don't. So you will always know if you are a christian, because you know if you accepted Him.

Do you Christians even believe in the Biblical God? Was Jesus his son?

Do you think you must agree with the Bible in order to be a real Christian? Can you be a good person even if you are not a Christian and if so, why would we even need the Bible?

I do believe in the biblical God. The same feeling I get when I know God is speaking to my spirit, I get when I read the bible! So I believe it to be his written voice.

Of course you can be an awesome person and not even acknowledge that Christ ever lived. But where would you go after life? How could you go to heaven if you never accepted the "invitation"?

Here it is in a nut shell:

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23 (keyword all)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23 (key words sin = death)

So, all have sinned and sin = death therefore all deserve death. But surely God is more forgiving, right?

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." -Hebrews 9:22 (blood = forgiveness)

So God has to shed our blood to forgive us? Blood must be shed, so in the Old Testament times they would do an animal blood sacrifice. When the animal died that sin was forgiven. But this was a temporary fix, only needed because Jesus Christ had not yet been born.

Enter Jesus Christ - everything changes.

"God made him who had no sin to be sin offering for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2nd Corinthians 5:21

Jesus was the "animal" whose blood was shed to forgive our sins.

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." -Romans 10:4

At that point exit Old Testament law, enter New Testament salvation. An animal blood sacrifice was no longer needed for every sin, because Jesus was the perfect "Lamb of God" animal for all mankind

So why Jesus? Simple, He had no sin.....

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin." -Hebrews 4:15

Btw - I do believe Jesus sinned while hanging on that cross. But I guess it was understandable; I would have been sorta upset too.

Impossible. Only because He NEVER sinned could He be the only appropriate sacrifice ALL sin.

This is one thing I can't understand. This whole story about every new born child being a sinner 'cause..what - Adam bit the apple? God won't judge us by our actions? He thinks we are sinners and should burn in hell because of something that happened thousands of years ago...something that we can in no way correct anymore?

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" -Romans 5:12

Soooooo..... The first time I sinned I would be unable to stand in God's holy presence because of it. By asking Jesus into my sinned filled heart, his blood has covered the sin. In God's presence He will not see my sinful nature which I inherited from Adam, rather the blood of His Son Jesus which has "washed" the sin away.

BTW, Thank you Jesus......

Sorry to be sooo wordy, but these are matters of life and death.

Originally posted by meadfish
So true. Christianity says that Christ is the ONLY way to get to heaven. Having Him in your heart will help you through this walk of life, and help Him if you let Him work through you to reach others who are lost.

And if those who are lost do not want to be found? If they don't want a mad mindset forced upon them? What must you do then?

Originally posted by meadfish
Lost are not necessarily those who do not believe in Christianity, but those who do not belive in life after death. Once you believe in life after death, God will lead you to Christ so that you have the choice to accept Him. (read Rev. 3-20)

I believe in life before death... So I guess that the boogeyman is coming for me...

Originally posted by meadfish
A person cannot be a christian simply because they were raised by christian parents, or baptized, etc. It is a choice each person will make.....accept Him or don't. So you will always know if you are a christian, because you know if you accepted Him.

I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.

Originally posted by meadfish
I do believe in the biblical God. The same feeling I get when I know God is speaking to my spirit, I get when I read the bible! So I believe it to be his written voice.

When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

Originally posted by meadfish
Of course you can be an awesome person and not even acknowledge that Christ ever lived. But where would you go after life? How could you go to heaven if you never accepted the "invitation"?

Dunno. I guess that I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Originally posted by meadfish
Impossible. Only because He NEVER sinned could He be the only appropriate sacrifice ALL sin.

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" -JC (at least that's what I heard in Religion class)

Questioning the value of God, no?

Anyway, this whole sacrifice business leads to one obvious question: Why didn't God just forgive us? If he's omnipotent, and wanted to forgive (or he wouldn't have sent JC, right?), then why all this sacrifice business to begin with? Why not just say: Your sins are forgiven? (I have a reason, but it would imply that religion is merely a social phenomenon, so I suppose that it doesn't really count.)

Originally posted by meadfish
Soooooo..... The first time I sinned I would be unable to stand in God's holy presence because of it. By asking Jesus into my sinned filled heart, his blood has covered the sin. In God's presence He will not see my sinful nature which I inherited from Adam, rather the blood of His Son Jesus which has "washed" the sin away.

Again: Why doesn't God just abolish sin? Surely it would be within the power of an omnipotent god to do so?

Originally posted by meadfish
BTW, Thank you Jesus......

You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

Originally posted by meadfish
Sorry to be sooo wordy, but these are matters of life and death.

Especially the latter. And especially if the Church is ever restored to power.

Jedi Monk, if God chose the first Pope (St Peter) who was a married man, why is it forbidden for the Pope then to marry?
The celibacy of Priests in the Latin Rite is a discipline, not a dogma; it could be changed. Priests in the Eastern Rite can marry. The discipline is based on the writings of St. Paul, who said, "An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided..." (1Cor, 7: 32b-34a)

Also, I was speaking from experience, while I did not personally take part in praying before statues and such because I do not believe we are supposed to. From what was going on, it seemed to contradict the bible.
We do not pray to statues--it's an important distinction to make. We have no delusion that that statue is Mary, or that crucifix is Jesus. They're not idols, they're prayer aids, they help us remember these people who really lived and who are still there for us.

I'm curious as to why we need Mary to go to her Son for us. Can she change his mind?
When you're going through a tough time, do you ask your family and friends to pray for you? That's what this is like; the Catholic Church makes no distinction between the living and dead in this respect, we're all part of one family. And as I said before, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer."

BTW Holy- seperated or set-apart, in the sence that God is set apart from us in that he is perfect and w/o flaw, not seperated in the sence of not being able to effect the things in our life.
The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." And her cousin, Elizabeth, "filled with the holy Spirit" said "Most blessed are you among women." I believe that would indicate that she is set her apart from you or I.

We are not talking about traditions in general, we're talking about religious brainwash. If religion was outlawed, we would have a much more free society, after the adaption was completed.
And how would you go about outlawing religion? People wouldn't stop worshiping God just because of a law. People, throughout the centuries, have died rather than denounce their faith. They would go underground, and what then? Hunt them down? Imprison them? They wouldn't stop praying. Execute them to rid the world of their traditions? There were no religious groups in 1984, or in Brave New World, besides pseudo religions like the cult of Our Ford.

"I go to youth group youth anti sex league after Mass Two Minutes' Hate"

(Youth anti sex league and Two Minutes' Hate are Orwellian concepts used for the oppression of the population.)
Oh yes, and last week at Mass, the priest held up a picture of so-and-so and we all booed and hissed and screamed obscenities at it :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
And how would you go about outlawing religion? People wouldn't stop worshiping God just because of a law. People, throughout the centuries, have died rather than denounce their faith. They would go underground, and what then? Hunt them down? Imprison them? They wouldn't stop praying. Execute them to rid the world of their traditions?

No. What every religion throughout all of the ages has feared the most: Educate them. Enlighten them in the ways of the world. Make them see the delusions of their dogma.

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
There were no religious groups in 1984, or in Brave New World, besides pseudo religions like the cult of Our Ford.

Oh yes, and last week at Mass, the priest held up a picture of so-and-so and we all booed and hissed and screamed obscenities at it :rolleyes:

You are missing the point. The Cult of Our Ford and The Two Minutes' Hate are means of thought control. They are ways to impress a common cause/goal/unity upon a lot of people. Mass serves the exact same function.

The ability to instill mass emotion in a group of people is one of despositm's most used and powerful tools. You see Hussain using it. You see Bush using it. You see the Pope using it...

Because if people get all emotional they forget to think rationally and independently. That is the exact purpose of Mass. The form is, for this purpose, irrellevant. But if you wish to see a Mass that openly promotes intolerance, look at the ones done during the Crusades.

Also, as you say, Orwell didn't try to depict religion. Which makes the fact that Oceania so closely resembles Dark Age Europe all the more curious...

My intentions are not to argue with or sway others, but to articulate the basis of christianity (which seems to on trial here.) All responses stem from a biblical point of view so if you do not believe in the bible the responses only fuel your bitterness toward christianity. (again not my intention)


And if those who are lost do not want to be found? If they don't want a mad mindset forced upon them? What must you do then?

You have freewill and are free to roam to where and with whom you choose.

I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1

Remember what Jesus told Thomas...
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29

When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

I assume this was rhetorical?

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" -JC (at least that's what I heard in Religion class)

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.



Why didn't God just forgive us? If he's omnipotent, and wanted to forgive (or he wouldn't have sent JC, right?), then why all this sacrifice business to begin with? Why not just say: Your sins are forgiven?

Did you read the "nut shell" part?
We could never begin to understand the Omnipotent God, so we could never explain his methods. I only offer the christian reasoning behind what we have FAITH in.

You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

I am not sure why you repeated the statement, typo? but.... A terrorist is someone who takes the lives of innocent people for a cause or faith he believes in, Jesus gave his life for sinners who did not believe in Him.... could he be any more opposite?

I will never fault a person for their religion, faith, view, or opinion. Some of these replies do just that, so what is the purpose in them? They are not actions of love, and shouldn't love be the root of any faith or belief? Hmmmm.....

No. What every religion throughout all of the ages has feared the most: Educate them. Enlighten them in the ways of the world. Make them see the delusions of their dogma.
Despite what you might think, not all Christians are uneducated heathens. Christianity is still the single largest religion on earth; we are writers, scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers and professors.

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.
Another interpretation is that Jesus wanted to remind the people around him of the 22nd Psalm:
"My God, my God, who have you abandoned me?
...All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me.
You relied on the Lord--let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you...
...They stare at me and gloat; they divide my garments among them; for my clothes they cast lots..."

Quote by ShadowTemplar:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Maverick Knight
If you can't ask questions and get logical answers, it's not worth believing in. Everyone should be able to back up their beliefs with arguments. Otherwise, it's not worth believing in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which excludes all religion, and, basically, is not belief. Belief is thinking that something is right without having proof. If you have proof, then it's knowledge, not belief."

Well Belief is:
v. tr.
1.To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2.To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3.To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.

You don't have to believe something for it to be true, and it doesn't have to be true for you to believe it, but if you do accept it as true, then you are believing in it. You can "know" that something is true, but if you don't believe it, then it doesn't matter.You can have proof,and still believe it.
Plus, why are people saying that Jesus was a terrorist? He healed people, and preached love, and preached against killing. What makes him a terrorist? Now I think you're just trying to make people mad.
Also, I think I'm going to have to agree with what you said meadfish, I think you said a lot of good things.

My intentions are not to argue with or sway others, but to articulate the basis of christianity (which seems to on trial here.)

Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that...

All responses stem from a biblical point of view so if you do not believe in the bible the responses only fuel your bitterness toward christianity. (again not my intention)

I do not believe. Period. Not in the Bible, not in anything else. But I fail to see how a silly, old book can infuryate anyone... The actions taken in defence of said silly, old book, on the other hand...

You have freewill and are free to roam to where and with whom you choose.

Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move. I can't think of any other corperation that can get away with the kind of "active marketing" (otherwise known as SPAM) that most religions practise.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1

Remember what Jesus told Thomas...
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29

So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action?

Clearly this "blessing" is that of blindness, useful only for oppression.

I assume this was rhetorical?

Rethorical question: Using a question mark in the place of an exclamation mark. No I wasn't rethorical. If you read "Tales of the Chtulu Mythos" you will see that views not unlike the ones that you advocate are forwarded by hallucinogens. Just asking.

This was not Jesus sinning, however this is the point at which Jesus became our sin. Jesus could see His Father looking down on Him, but God cannot look upon sin ("Your eyes are too pure to look on evil -Habakkuk 1:13) so at that point God turned away.

Whatever. I'll give you that. Still, I see this whole sacrifice business as just a show...

Did you read the "nut shell" part?
We could never begin to understand to Omnipotent God, so we never explain his methods. I only offer the christian reasoning behind what we have FAITH in.

"Christian reasoning". "Compassionate Conservative". "Tolerant religion". "Honest politicians". See where I'm getting? These are big, fat oxymorons.

And spare me the "we could never understand an omnipotent God" bullsnot. Get real.

I am not why you repeated the statement, typo?

No. Not typo. I just thought that it would need to be repeated in order to sink in.

A terrorist is someone who takes the lives of innocent people for a cause or faith he believes in, Jesus gave his life for sinners who did not believe in Him.... could he be any more opposite?

By today's standards, affiliating with known terrorists makes you a terrorist, right. If for no other reason, then for failing to deliver them to the proper authorities. JC had no less than THREE Zealots in his run-together: Judas "Longknife", Jacob "The Truthful", and Simon "The Zealot". The Zealots were a millitant sect, that employed terrorist and gurillia tactics in their fight against the Romans.

If 25% of your closest friends were well known Al Qaida operatives, then I am pretty sure that you would be branded terrorist too.

I will never fault a person for their religion, faith, view, or opinion. Some of these replies do just that, so what is the purpose in them? They are not actions of love, and shouldn't love be the root of any faith or belief? Hmmmm.....

I do not know if you are speaking generally or about me in particular. But as for me: I don't believe that you can find any posts where I attacked you or anyone else. I have been sending some very serious flak in the general direction of your beliefs, but that is not the same thing. I'm attacking your beliefs, not your person.

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
Despite what you might think, not all Christians are uneducated heathens. Christianity is still the single largest religion on earth; we are writers, scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers and professors.

Yet everything, and I do mean everything that all of these big people have accomplished that has any real value has been purely rational in nature. Their faith is more of a hinderence than a help to progress.

What I see when I look around me is that the vast majority of the Christians that I see have little or no knowledge or skill scientific (just browse this forum for confirmation). They are, in general and with some exeptions, narrow minded and lack the ability to see their own irrellevance in the cosmic picture of things.

"Nothing matters from far enough away." -Gutes, Private, Tanith First. This is a very important understanding. IMO it is rather childish to consider man to be the be-all and end-all of creation. Would the Zerg not be more fit to survive? Or the Tyranids? Or some of the numerous insect species on this planet.

[QUOUE]Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
...They stare at me and gloat; they divide my garments among them; for my clothes they cast lots..." [/QUOTE]

I'll leave the theological debate to you guys. But the part about dividing his garment is funny, because the cloth that covered his dead body has been claimed found at least three different times and places... And if you put together all the so-called "splinters from JC's cross" relics, you get about two whole crosses... So much for the credibility of the Church...

Originally posted by Psydan
Well Belief is:
v. tr.
1.To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
2.To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3.To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.

Keywords: Accept, credit, and expect or suppose. All are subjective. Useless crap.

Cold, hard facts are not subjective. Usefull tools. See what I'm getting at? If you hold something to be applicable because that is what empirical evidence suggests, then you are beyond faith. That is sense (percieved by the senses).

Whoa! This thread really took off while I was away. :D

Now that I've spent half and hour reading all those replies, I want to comment on a few things:

1) Christianity is a religion.
Saying it isn't is like saying: "Tennis isn't a sport, it's a way of life . :rolleyes:
You can call it whatever you want, but tennis is still a sport. Someone's personal view does not change this, no matter how committed they are to tennis.

2) The thing about JC and sin --> I was referring to the things he said while being crusified. Some people think the whole "why have you forsaken me"-stuff was sinning. Personally I think these people should JC a break. He was crusified and dying FFS!! :D

3) Mandolorian wrote somewhere that he believes that newborns, is they die, will go to hell because they are tainted by the original sin.

Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby.
What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple.

That is your God? It sure as hell isn't mine!

And another thing - women as priests. What is wrong with that? Aren't men and women equal? Are women really inferior in the eyes of God? Why is that?! :confused:

4) Great post meadfish. :) You made it all sound logical.
But...you are basing the whole argument upon the fact that God lives by the principle of "If you do bad things, you must give me blood or burn in hell forever.

Why does God want our blood? I don't get that. Perhaps it is true. Perhaps he also needs golden trinkets in order to "beam down" on earth.
(There is a lot of literature [check the parapsychology-section at a library near you! :D ] on this subject that explain even the weirdest OT stuff.)


And as an answer to Cjais question I'll say that:

*Probably because I have NOT figured it all out yet. :D *

A few more comments:

I find it amazingly stupid that the arguments against science (and pro-Bible) are as follows:

Religious person X: well, umm...like okay: explain to me how black holes function and how the whole universe was born in the first place!

Scientist: Those are tough questions, I don't exactly -

Religious person X: HA! GOTCHA! There we have it!! You CAN NOT EXPLAIN CAN YOU!!? HAHA! That proves God really exists and the communion wine turns into Jesus' blood!

Scientist: Umm, I don't really see how you can assume anything of the communion wine just because I am not 100% sure of how black holes function and don't have proof about the creation of the universe.. but if you want, I can always do some tests on the wine to see if it really changes to blood..?

Religious person X: Haha! No need to test the wine. I think we have heard enough already. You can not explain everything which proves that the Bible and all our believes are THE TRUTH

Scientist: So...do you have any kind of proof of any of what you believe in?

Religious person X: Bah! We have GOD's own words as proof. We have a 2k old book that says that everything it says is true. 'nuff said!

Scientist: But the book is written by humans thousands of years ago and everyone who has read it knows it is filled with factual errors and contradicts itself on numerous occasions?

Religious person X: GOD wrote it through humans. Are you doubting the word of GOD? Are *you* calling the almighty GOD a liar? You think *you* are wiser than the all-knowing omnipotent GOD? Blasphemy! You shall burn in HELL you heretic you!

Scientist: Ok. I'll be going now. Nice talking to you.

Let it be known that I have pulled out of this thread because someone (who shall go nameless, but they indeed did post this in this thread) has called my beliefs idiotic. (You know who you are)

I cannot debate with someone who is going to shoot down what I believe, or say it is idiotic.

To whom the person I am speaking:

If you ever, ever, ever, EVER call mine or anyone else's beliefs idiotic again, I will ban you from these forums. Capeshe?

Nothing but nonsense is on trial here. If you feel that the Bible is on trial, then that must mean that...

Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense ;)

Is that a promise? How many missionaries do I have to turn away before JC gets the point and directs them to somewhere else? Surely it must be my right as a consumer to turn away all peddlers of the same, faulty good in one move

Just as you are free, so are they. Yet they use their freedom to spend time reaching out. The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts!

So, you are blessed if you believe that communism is good, even though you have never seen it do a good thing (apart from the fact that there are no such things as "good" or "evil")? You are blessed for believing that Hitler was a compassionate man, even though you haven't ever seen him make a compassionate action?

While this may be insightful, it is totally out of context. I listed your quote to which I was responding-

(**your statement: "I have never made the choice whether to accept JC. I want to see someone back the Bible with something real before I decide whether to follow him or not.")

My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned ;)

For the record no I am not smoking Hashish

Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist:

I think you overestemate Jesus. After all, he was just a common terrorist. .........and
You may want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards... Or you may not want to know that JC was a terrorist by modern standards...

No man on earth has ever displayed more love than He, your accusations are unfounded and ludicrous....

As for asking if I am accusing you of attacking others, no. You have not attacked anyone in your statements except Jesus, and I'm sure He will forgive you. But some poison is leaking out along with the passion that we all display for our view. Make it a discussion or even debate, but not an arguement. That helps noone.

Also a final answer about all this baby goes to hell stuff-

"but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" -James 1:14,15

Does a baby have evil desire? Of course not. He is born into a sinful nature because of Adam, and will someday sin because of that nature, thus someday will need salvation through Jesus.

Lastly, Obi-Wan13, you should not deprive the rest of us of your insight because of the narrow mindedness of a single individual. Not to insult that person, just an observation. We will all never be the same....we should value anyone's view, even if we don't understand or even agree with it.

I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die?

Maybe I over reacted, but the threat will be carried out if the person does not comply.

After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. :cool:

I hope you stay, only by listening to the criticisms of others do we refine and solidify our faith. We should all keep in mind though that criticize does not mean belittle or insult......

As for your expectation after death, very well said! See you there

;)

Originally posted by obi-wan13

After death, I will expect to be standing in front of the pearly gates, with a man with a book. He will look into that book and find my name in the book, and I will walk into those gates and see the greatest man that ever walked the Earth. :cool:

And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief). This was one of the reasons why the worker class in Europe in the 17-1800s didn't really do anything about the lousy payment and the terrible conditions at the factories.

"Religion is opium for the people" -Karl Marx

Originally posted by meadfish
The christian in me is even more in awe of a God who would continue to direct His followers to you, when you are so nonreceptive. He must really care about you....Personally I am going to pray that they double their efforts!

You sound like you could use some empathy here. How would you react if you were besieged by Muslim missionaries on a daily basis? After all, it's just God directing his followers to "aid" you. There's no point in resisting, because you know Allah is best for you. Oh, you're saying you wouldn't like that? Well this is exactly what you're doing to us.

If you found your culture invaded by Islam, I'm sure you'd react as well. This is what some people did down in the middle east. They got enough of the local Christian missionaries and shot them. I don't approve of this (though Templar likely does) but I can easily understand why they did it.

My response: Thomas could not believe Jesus had risen unless he saw Him, and put his finger in the nail hole. He needed proof just as you state you do. Jesus said if you can believe in me without seeing me you are blessed, Hitler was never mentioned ;)

The point is, communism is great in theory, but the results of it have always been bad. The same goes for Christianity - great and harmless in theory, but it has been responsible for genocides and the killings of innocent women and children.

Also, while Jesus did dwell among the "undesireables" of society, they could hardly be called terrorists, I think that is a bit speculative on your part. Twice in this thread you have said Jesus was a terrorist.

History is written by the victors. Do you also blindly trust every history book you read? The Bible was written some hundred years after the factual events, and it's been through horribly many editions, each more twisted than the last.

That said, Jesus was in fact affiliating with known terrorists (Judas Longknife and the Zealots). While the Bible for good reasons wouldn't depict his followers as terrorists, it's been verified from various other sources.

I would be interested in knowing....what does everyone reading this believe will happen after you die?


Death is The End. I will cease to exist and fade into the background. The world will go on without me, and for that, I am thankful.

Christianity was what I meant seemed to be on trial, but I would hardly call anyone's convictions and beliefs nonsense ;)

What is nonsense? When are we allowed to call stupid, abject idiotic statements ignorant and nonsensical?

Several times it has been mentioned that the Raelians are nutcases. If I walked up to you and stated that pigs can fly and that I'm napoleon, I'm sure you'd call me insane, nonsensical or idiotic. Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians.
You're the same, but you refuse to acknowledge it. You like to think of Christianity as not defying facts and reality. I'm sure the Ralians, Muslims and Buddhists like to do the same thing.

If we can't call dumb beliefs dumb beliefs, then I want this enforced on everyone. If I ever hear people saying you can't trust the Taliban, Eskimos or Raelians because their beliefs are severely wrong and skewed and because they do bad, immoral things, I'll have your ass banned to heaven. I want no distinctions at all or I'll call you the biggest hypocrite that ever walked the earth.

Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
When do you feel "God" speaking? When you're on hashish?

Watch where you're going there!!! You offended me and if this were exposed to other Christians they would be very offended also. Feeling God is the most amazing thing a person will ever experience. I HAVE FELT HIM. You can argue this point but DO NOT insult the people who do feel it.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Picture this: A beautiful baby girl is born in a hospital. The next day a psycho escapes from the nearby mental institute, walks into the hospital and slits the throat of the baby.
What does our beloved God do? --> he condemns the innocent baby to eternal pain and suffering in the flames of hell. ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING because Adam bit the apple.

Ok I said it once and I'll say it again. God does NOT send people to hel UNTIL THEY HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT AND WRONG. This baby does not. Therefore it does not go to hell.

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
And because you belive that, you may not care very much about improving your life before you die. Not talking just to you but to christians in general. They may be alright with being treated unfairly and bad, simply because, they're going to heaven anyway (after their belief).

Ok now the way we get to heaven is
1) Holy Spirit starts your salvation.
2) You must realize that you're lost.
3) God will give you saving faith.
4) Without repentence there is no salvation.
5) If these four things happen, you are forgiven...
(These 5 things are what helped me come to Christ 7 years ago.)


This DOES NOT mean that once we do these things we are set to go to heaven and can go murder, steal and commit sins. Once we accept this we must live our life FOR GOD which means living the way he wants us to which is not stealing and murdering. We as Christians cannot just accpt this and belive that we are going to heaven. If we live our life for God to the best of our abilities (He will know if we do this or not) after we accept him as our personal savior then we will go to heaven. To break it down...

Acceptance of Jesus as our personal savior + Living our lives for God = Heaven.

Originally posted by Cjais
Obi, while I agree we crossed the line (and so did the Christians, but that is of no matter here), we should all be able to distinguish between attacks on a person (flaming) and attacks and disproof of me thinking it's a good idea to kill dogs. Your beliefs are not you. They're just that, beliefs.

And that's where you're wrong. Beliefs MAKE UP who we are. You don't believe in Jesus or God or Heaven which is why you argue about it so much because it is your person. It is who you are. Obi and I belive in God and Heaven and that affects WHO WE ARE and how we live. Beliefs DO make up who a person is.

So insulting beliefs = insult the person

As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs.

Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs. I don't feel that was reciprocated, but I'll get over it

I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient.

Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose.

Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy?

Originally posted by meadfish
As stated, I have not and will not call someone else's beliefs stupid, idiotic, ignorant, or nonsensical. Nor would I call anyone a "nutcase" or other insulting name for their beliefs.

I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree?

How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none.

I am God. The Lord. Jesus Christ. Am I ignorant, idiotic or nonsensical now? Would you like to see some proof of this bold statement?

As I am God, I will fervently try to convert you to believe in me. Does it sound even more idiotic now? Are you interested in some proof? I have it right here, it says "Cjais is God." Boohoo - it looks like I'm right, and that I have the right to pelt you and everyone else with this. What is the difference between Christianity, Islam and Cjaisism with regards to the factual evidence? Are one of them less false than the other? What stops a non-religious person from believing in me instead of Christ?

Another clue: Are kids who have an imaginary friend immature? Everyone can see it isn't there. Is it a belief to be respected and nurtured - or a silly illusion to be rooted our so they won't be bullied when they grow up? Is my imaginary friend any less false than your Christ? They have the same amount of proof behind them - zip. Nada.

Should we respect the Al-Quada beliefs that the west should go down in flames and that Allah will aid them in this purpose? I'm sure you'd like to see some proof of this as well. I'm sure you think it's a childish, and not to mention dangerous, fantasy that must be rooted out for others to take them seriously and respect them.


Throughout this post I have only presented the reasons for my beliefs, and left others to theirs.

Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith.

I can appreciate another's stern unbelief in my faith, but some pass on their rebutting opinion as absolute truth

Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief.

and imply that anyone not agreeing with it is intellectually deficient.

So you're saying that there's a thing such as "intellectually deficient"? Am I retarded for saying I'm the Lord? Who in the world is retarded? If you can't name anyone, the term becomes void of meaning.

Even worse is to me is that a moderator would do these things instead of filtering them out...which I assumed was a moderator's purpose.

This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false? I'll confess to that. Stated that there's a difference between actions and the person who commits them? I'll glady confess to this as well. Have I called you ignorant? No. Retarded? No. Idiotic? No.

Here is what ShadowTemplar said: Would the statement "I believe pigs can fly" be any less idiotic to you? Is this an assault on you as a person? On the person who believes pigs can fly?

Such is life and it circles back to our "freewill", but whatever happened to common courtesy?

Calling me narrow minded doesn't exactly further the "Holier than thou"-attitude you're currently expressing.

Man I leave for two days and the dam busts :D . I'm glad some of my fellow bros and sisters showed up I was feeling lonely :cool: .

Just a quick thing on the whole evolution vs. creation thing. When it comes down to it we really dont know 100% how the earth was created. God may have used evolution (I believe otherwise) and it could have been literally days. We weren't there. But the same thing goes for those of you that believe in evolution, you werent there either, so you dont know 100%. Theories change over the years, science changes its mind. Evolution is still a theory and not a law. Take the hullaballu when they "created life in a test tube" to simulate how planets formed the basic building blocks of life (Miller-Urey). It was a bunch of crap. While a few building blocks did appear none of the essential building blocks of life were formed, yet in all our biology books that experiment is still used to support evolution. Thats just one of many examples.
they have a whole thred about ev. vs cr. so that may be a better place to have this discussion

Evolution is a theory - correct. Theories can be proven. Theories can incorporate laws and tested hypotheses. Calling it a theory does not mean it is any less false as long as it's been proven. And been proved it has. Many times.

That the Genesis happened has not been proven at all. That the Genesis could have happened has not been proved at all either. Do I really have to let you in on the conclusion of this?

But you are correct that we don't know 100% how the earth was created. Could God have had a hand in it? Yes. Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No.

If you take the Genesis for a metaphor, that Homo Sapiens evolved from a primate ancestor, that there was no Noah's Ark, that all the species that ever lived on the earth didn't coexist at one time - if you do this, I salute you. Realizing evolution is fact does not mean God doesn't exist. Catholics have realized this. Can "Christians" do this as well?

My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake.

Yes and if evolution did happen (which I don't belive it did) and the Big Bang and all that stuff... it would have been a miracle. To have complex lifeforms come into being after many years from a piece of matter that had no volume but infinite mass OR "Nothing", constitutes a miracle. As does the complex life forms like us that followed that after blillions of years.

Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen.

for evry action there is a re-action. If a collision takes place, matter is reduced to rubble and sent hurling away from the place of impact. Life doesn't form.

In this whole world evrything is in order, if it were all a coincedence there would be many messed up and strange things, how is it the world has order and natural laws such as gravity.

Evolution does not explain the orgin of the meteor which collided to create life, or the cell that traveled on the meteor, depending on which evolution view you hold.

The only reason evolution is accepted by scientists is because they don't want to believe that they were created by a God who will punish them for doing wrong.

--------------------


How are these religions different from Christianity? They aren't, they have done the exact same bloody deeds, and they have the exact same amount of proof for their beliefs - none.

that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different.


How do you explain your own existence and the unique complicated world you live in?

evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from?

were did the first peice of matter come from?



This is what separates Christianity from evry other religion.
All religion has similar aspects, like GOD, heaven, creation. But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever.

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

I mean think logically about it, If you put two people in the same room and tell them to write a book on religion they will end up arguing because they wont agree on much.

but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!!

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
Evolution is silly if you think about it, it makes no logical sense. If your walking down the street and you hear an explosion at the car plant you don't expect a nice new car to drive out, because you know that wont hapen.



Firstly, anyone who knows enough of evolution can make logical sense out of it. Secondly, if I told you that over 99.9% of the earth is complete emptiness, then that doesn't sound very logical. But it is true, and has been proven, and no one really doubt it.

Cjais, Luc Solar and ShadowTemplar can comment the rest, so I'll just jump right to

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault. But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

Do you know what you are doing now? You are insulting every religion except christianity. There is no real difference between them. Tell me, why can't Allah be true? It does say in a book that he does, so why don't you think that is true? There is only one answer: You have been taught to belive in the christianic god instead of any of the others. There cannot be any other reason.

Originally posted by Mandolorian54
that's a pretty ignorant thing to say, evry religion is very different.

You're quoting me out of context here.

evolution? out of chance evrything exists? but wear does the stuff that coincidently created evrything, wear did it come from?

were did the first peice of matter come from?

The same place your God came from. No, I don't know, but at least I'm interested in finding out. Petty beliefs won't stop me delving into this delicate matter.

But most religions say that with hard work, and good works you can go to heaven, but Christianity teaches that we cant do anything to achieve eternal life but God out of mercy and kindness chose some of us to be with him for ever.

So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven?

I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it.

All other religions have fault because they were made by men who were at fault.

This is an attack on other beliefs, and it's not the first one you've made. Not that I care, but some people no doubt do in this place.

But chrisianity was given to us by GOD so it is perfect and is the only truth.

And the Old Testament wasn't given to the Jews by God? The Koran wasn't delivered to Muhammed by God? And show me examples of this truth you're talking about.

but The BIBLE was writen by fourty people over two centuries most of whom never met each other and it does not contradict itself and is historically accurate, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT!!!!

With this (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) and this (http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/things.htm#silly).

The genesis alone should be enough to label the Bible as historically false and contradicting in the extreme.

(previously)...
Where is the difference between these and your religion? There isn't any difference. You're just as much a "nutcase" as the Raelians.

I do not perceive a distinction here between being called a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs being nutcases. The statement above says I am a nutcase, which may be true, but it sounds like a flame...

I was not referring to you specifically. I've heard many times that the Taliban and the Raelians are nutcases and the world would be a better place without them. Do you agree?
These things are not in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post?

As for do I agree, I there is no race of people that the world would be better off without - only evil people. There are good and evil in every race, faith, color, country, city, etc. but we are all equal and equally valuable to the earth and whomever reigns over it.


Simply stating that I'm going to burn in hell for my beliefs constitutes an attack on my faith.

I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was a response is still true.


Are you saying that Jesus isn't absolute truth? Are you saying that you accept that you could be wrong, that Jesus could in fact just be an immature imaginary play friend? At least I have the sense to see that there is no truth. That I'm only striving to see the least false version of reality. And seeing that version of it requires facts, senses and evidence. Not blind belief.

I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if someone else doesn't believe it, that's OK! I believe because I have had personal revelation and evidence. Could someone theorize my belief, maybe. Could another provide a logical and scientific reason for the evidence which I have experienced....probably. Does that make it less valid to me? No. It only provides a non believer more reasons not to believe in it.

This is a personal attack. What I have done? Stated that your beliefs are false?

In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true. Some responses here are not just factual contradiction, but insulting comparisons to terrorism, again an opinion. Some claim to know of historical fact, but as stated earlier...do you believe everything you read?

These responses have offended at least three people that made it evident, perhaps more that did not.

Later some have back tracked to explain them, but not when they were expressed. And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded". An open minded person would accept that any of these beliefs or faiths are conceivably possible.Some have not shown this open mindedness. Besides that remark was directed to anyone who would insult someone to the point that they would leave the thread.

I have no quarrel with anyone here, I value all opinion. No offense was ever intended. :cool:

Originally posted by meadfish
I do not perceive a distinction between you calling me a nutcase, or those who share my beliefs. I am totally ok with you thinking I am whatever you choose, but your response is that I am

I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to say here. I have not called you a nutcase. And you are of course not "whatever I choose".

You have not heard these things in this post, so why attack the people and beliefs in this post?

Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult".

I never did and would not say that. So my statement to which this was your response is still true.

Sorry. Another Christian said that, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

But the question is: Will I burn in hell for not accepting Christ? No? Of course?

I believe Jesus is absolute truth. What I am saying is that if you don't believe it, that's OK!

As a lot of Christians in here have expressed, it is obviously not okay with you. I'm not saved. I must repent. I'm subject to conversion.

In your opinion they are false. In some others' here they are true.

Until you have proven they are true, they remain false. Just as if I believe pigs can fly, it doesn't make it true. It's really not my job to disprove these things, it's yours to prove them. Now we're again operating on the maturity level of our little imaginary friend.

Your responses are not just factual contradiction

Where?

but insulting comparisons to terrorism

Not in the slightest "insulting". Saying that Hitler was a bad man is not insulting. Saying Christianity has provided no measurable good to the world is not insulting.

You claim to know of historical fact, but like you stated earlier...do you believe everything you read?

That which can be proven, yes.

Your responses have offended at least three people that made it evident

Which, where and how? I can't see it anywhere.

Later you have back tracked to explain them, but not when you expressed them.

I only "backtracked to explain them" because I thought most people in here were able to understand what I was saying. Sorry if I offended anyone.

And "narrow minded" is the opposite of "open minded".

And "retarded" is the opposite of mature. It's not necessarily an insult, as I know several retarded persons who are good people.

Stop misusing the word "insult".


No offense was ever intended. :cool:

None on my part either :cool:

As I've noticed you don't like replying to my entire posts, does this mean you agree with the rest of what I say? Or do you just like to quote out of context?

Originally posted by Cjais


Simply, because if a moderator finds it necessary to ban people becuase of not accepting beliefs, I can do too. Only I don't view Christianity as above other beliefs, and it being the sole religion I can't "insult".

If you are referring to me, you missed completely what I meant. I wasn't going to ban the guy for not having my views, I was going to ban him for insulting them, which is NOT ok with me. Even if he was a christian and insulted those who where not, I would have given the same warning.

However, If you were not referring to me, ignore this post. :)

Could God have created it as in the literal interpretation found in the Bible? No.

Ah but on the contrary he could have. He is God. And being God he can do anything. Now I know that you will not accept that answer, :D big deal, but realise that there are just as many holes in evolutionary theory. Read the book Darwins Black Box it gives hard scientific evidance that supports creationism. Also check this out: http://icr.org/) .

My real gripe with Christians is that they pass off the fossil record as non-existant. That it's all fake.

The reason many of us "pass off the fossil record" is because there are some major flaws in it. There are huge holes in the time line that cannot be explained.

So you're saying it doesn't take hard work to be a Christian? That if I just surrender now, I'll automatically be let into heaven?

Yes being a Christian does take work but that work is enjoyable. Yes if you surrender your life to Christ you will go to heaven no question. But it must be a conversion from the heart not fire insurance.

I'll like some proof of people who have entered heaven before i'll go believing in it.

The thing is that no matter if you believe in it or not it still exists, just like hell. The problem is that you will not realise your error until it is too late :( .

So now that we are all firmly seated on our high horses, let me conclued my involvement with this.

With 6+ billion people in this world, I am sure a very small percentile believe exactly as I do. I would be "retarded" (for lack of a better term) to think otherwise. In my zeal to match wit and response I digressed away from the real issue at hand - Luc Solar"s original post.

I am a Christian. It is the faith, religion, belief, or whatever that I firmly believe in. I pray every day so that I can grow closer to God, who I believe to be speaking to me and through me. I pray for myself, I pray for others.

Many, many "christians" are hypocrites - but not everyone who says "I am a christian" is truly one. It is not my job or even my right to say who is or isn't. Having been a youth pastor I can tell you many say they are to fit in, but they know nothing of the faith, the belief, nor have they accepted Jesus as Savior.

So many smart and passionate people in here, that is the best thing I will take from this.

Sorry it took almost a hundred replies to get to that, and even more sorry for any toes stepped on along the way.

Set up a server, invite me, and I will let you DFA me to your heart's content. :swrd2:

Now, I think I will resume the task that brought me to this forum in the first place: How do you make your name invisible on the duel list?:confused: