Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out: 1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example). 2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players. Probably #1 more often than not. They forget that while they might be sick of the game, others are completely happy with it and others are just discovering it for the first time. As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser. Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it.... Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; ) So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear... There could be a lot of reasons for "shortages" of servers. Perhaps people are on vacation or working and can't afford to spend time and money putting up servers like they can at other times of the year. Who knows. But people ARE still playing, and modding, so that's all that really matters to most of us.

Originally posted by Kurgan Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out: 1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example). 2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players. Not the case with me. I still play the game, usually daily for an hour or so. I'm not bored with it. I spawned this thread just to get the general concensus, as jkii.net hadn't updated in a week. As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser. Also not the case. I'm up to date on patches, though I rarely play online at home due to speed restrcitions. Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it.... Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players. I never cared about JK2's status in the chart. People who like will play it constantly no doubt but a point arises when you can only play so much of the same thing, which is where mods come in. The fact that the game changed majorly twice with official patches didn't help. I liked 1.03 but I really believe 1.04 is a step down from it. I don't let it bother me or affect my game, as I have JediMod though this is far from perfect. New mods are needed to increase the lifespan of the game. Fact. Look at Quake3/Half Life and see how the various mods have extended the lifespan of those games majorly. Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; ) I agree. But eventually people will get bored with what they have. It's human nature. You want something new, not something old, even though it's still in perfect working order. If editing is only taking off now, it'll be a bright future as the current editing standard has been high. So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear... Like I said, I was basing it on editing activity not servers. There are plenty of servers out there. :)

ASk has discovered a hidden feature in the JK2 code. We believe we've figured out the syntax and will be releasing the information shortly. As such, we could really use a experience mapper for testing purposes. You can't really call a game "dead" when all the built-in features haven't been explored. :) Razor Ace

theres a difference between dying and dead. a dead game means theres a limitted gaming community with no future and is played only sporatically a dying game is not dead, its merely fading. people still play it often, there are hardcore gamers that play it continuously, there are still newbies joining....BUT the TOTAL community of that game is decreasing... and this IS the case in Jk2. one cannot deny that there are less people playing now than say 3-4 months ago. the number of ppl playing may increase due 2 certain patches or mods but that number would not reach the size of 1.02 - early 1.03 size. the number of servers have decreased ( i wont say dramatically), and the gap between serious gamers(like many who visit forums like this) and amateur( people who just play for fun) have increased i certainly do not wish jk2 to die, but the undeniable fact is that its gaming community is shrinking (due to other new games like war3 etc, and because of the length of time since its release). ppl will continue to play jk2 still for quite a while and i certainly hope for a expansion pack or sequal to boost this community again!

I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team.

The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch.

Originally posted by razorace The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch. I agree, in fact they may even have worries of using ideas that people have already made in Mods since they may be intellectual property of the Mod designer. Who knows. I find it hard to believe that Raven will do anymore with this game and I am not sure that is a bad thing considering the past changes they've made. JKII is not dead and will most likely live for a long time because of Mods suchs as ProMod, jk++, and JediMod. As long as we have creative and talented individuals out there sharing their ideas so that Mod makers can see what people want, I think JKII has some life in her yet! Please do not ask raven for anymore Nerf's. On the off chance that we can get Raven to do something else for this game, lets see if we can get them to remove some of the overly nerfed strats and add some new things to the game. If you ask for something to be "fixed" you will be doing great harm to this community. When asking for changes made to the game please think- How can I make this game better for everyone and not.. I hate this <insert move here> I want it weakened immediately!! This game should have enough effective attacking and defending techniques that every player can use his own imagination to create an attacking/defending scheme that is effective. At the moment we have very few effective strats due to a very limited number of effective attacks. Please remember that this game is not made for YOU, it is made for all of us. it is not fair for anyone to say my style should not be allowed. You play your way, I will play mine, we all paid for this game and thus should all be allowed the freedom to play as our creativity leads us. Thanks FatalStrike

If you keep talking like JK2 is dying that your dooming it even more! Remember the first things you lose in war is morral and truth. If you lose morral you won't fight as hard and if you lose truth you won't know which of the facts are true. In WWII Japan tried to demorralize our troops by radio stations. They would have this lady with a beutiful voice come on and say stuff that wouldn't insult them, but it would have an effect on them.

Just download and try ProMod. Or enable autodownload and join one of my servers. Praxeum Knights Saber Only FFA - Promod Beta 2 IP: 206.169.69.25:28070 Praxeum Knights CTF - Promod Beta 2 IP: 206.169.69.25:28080 Promod eliminates the inferiority when it comes to competition play. And is getting better all the time. :)

Wow, my first post here... So? As long as there's a hardcore fanbase the game won't "die" until JK3 comes out. Ditto this. I just started playing the game and I see this thread... I religiously played the same game for almost two years...Wheel of Time. At it's peak, there were probably no more than 10-15 arena servers and 8-10 citadel servers. This was right after the game came out. It was announced that there would be NO sequel. Some people started making maps but there were no true mods developed. There was a small, but very serious, hard core fan base. This is all it takes to keep a game going. After two years of clanning and playing this game, I was burned out. But, guess what? The game is still going. It came out 4th qtr of 1999...no new mods and very few maps.

I think some people are getting the wrong impression from me. I never meant this thread to be a "JK2 is dead" thread. It was supposed to get the opinions of people regarding JK2 after, what, 6 months. I still play the game, though not as much as I did originally. It's a great game. I agree that we shouldn't ask Raven for any more patches. Hell, I was happy with 1.02 and I didn't want any other patches, period. I had to upgrade to find servers. JediMod and ProMod have made the game a lot more enjoyable. I don't think there would be too much legal wrangling over Raven making it official. To the best of my knowledge, CS was sort of unoffical and became offical. As did a number of mods for Quake 3 and UT. (Rocket Arena for one) It'd be interesting to see how far these mods could go with offical support. Dual Sabers with proper animation would be great and bugs would be next to non existant. It'd be good for the community if Raven worked with the creators of these mods or even on their code (which technically is an edited Raven code, so theres more legal stuff) :)

Originally posted by NeJJa well, first off the thing that generally sustains the life of an online shooter after the first few "ooh ahh" months is the competetion. my definition of a game being "alive" are online clans/leagues/ladders, and since JK2 is really competitively inferior (which saddens me more than anything) do to a number of things, the game just doesnt have that big of a following. so disappointing too, JK1 was like a very competitive scene, and now this crap. well, my 2 cents. You've perfectly described why i wrote ProMod. The true life of an online FPS is determined by the ladder competitions. ProMod was created to revitalize the game in that respect by making the game more suited to it in the following ways: 1. Adding more skill-based outcomes. The original version takes little skill to block and only a little more to hit someone *cough*hit from behind bug*cough*. I think ProMod's come a long way in forcing players to concentrate and practice to get good. 2. Adding depth of play. Most people had nearly the same force power layouts for every game mode. Get absorb level 3, sight level 1, Saber Throw, Jump, blah blah blah. Most of the Force Powers were totally ignored. CTF players ignored the saber completely and just got a projectile weapons and either Absorb and Speed or Dark Rage and Speed (if they wanted to make flag runs). Beta 2 includes the first wave of force power changes that aim to make all powers useful, thereby making each player's Force loadout unique. 3. Empowering the game's most-loved feature: the lightsaber. How many people ran to their software store saying to themselves, "Wow! I'm going to get to use the Rocket Launcher in this game!" I didn't. I don't know anybody that did. I admit some play for the Force Powers alone, but I don't think those people will stick around long. They can always go play some RuneQuake, which has all the same effects and better guns, to boot. I'm constantly working with the saber to make it viewed as something more than a glowing Quake axe. There's been a lot of resistance among some of the top players to adopting ProMod over the vanilla 1.04 version of the game. Most have said they don't want to relearn how to play. I can understand their perspective. They've spent a lot of practice time getting to the top, and they'd rather not jeopardize that by switching to a different set of skills. What they need to understand is that people are going to continue to drop out of the game due to its lack of depth if something is not done. They'll find being at the top of their CTF ladder is far less rewarding when all of their challengers have moved on. If some other mod comes along that's better geared towards ladder play, great. Use it instead of ProMod, but use something else! I haven't seen any other mods that deal with these issues, though. Until I do, I think that any ladder that wants to truly prolong the life of the game should switch over to ProMod, even in its beta state. One last thought We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook. I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave. Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game. Sigh. End Rant.

I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave. Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game. Sigh. End Rant. This is an extremely valid point. I have 5 mods on my MP JK2. -ProMod Beta 2 -JediMod 1.1 -Instaglib -Hydroball -JetPack (Which I'd like to see incorporated into ProMod or JediMod, maybe as a new game type if possible) While new mods are important, having 20 versions of a mod that does essentially the same thing is ridiculous. It's wastes server space and drives the community apart. I think that only JediMod 1.1 should be used rather than the whole JediMod++ stuff that is popping up. I'm guessing that the ProMod code will never be released and that's a good thing.

Originally posted by D.L. I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team. I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony. Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned. Cheers.

Originally posted by Ged I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony. Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned. Cheers. LOL! I suppose so but I was thinking about Raven being involved from an aesthetic point of view. There could do new animations for the Dual Saber (which doesn't look great at the moment) and well as making sure that sabers fit in both hands accurately as well as some new stances that aren't just a mix of other stances (in JediMod) I don't think they should touch any of the other things though 1.03/1.04 were customisable back to the way 1.02 was. There were a number of commands you could edit. It was the admins who didn't know how and Raven got a lot of backlash that wasn't necessarily deserved. Plus I like 1.03. More than 1.02.

I think that JK2 will be revived again by Christmas at the latest. Right now all of the real hardcore players have put out their hard earned cash on the game. Plus Attack of the Clones is just about out of the Movie houses, so the desire to be a Jedi is fading. The biggest boost this community could get right now would be a price cut from Raven on the game itself. As far as the mods go Artifex is right about one thing. The source code for Jeidmod should never have been made a public download. Look at Jediplus 3.3. Its full of bugs! All we need is more time for the game to come down in price and for the bad mods to go away. For me I will not download any variation of Jedimod unless it is an update from Dest. Another thing to remember is that if we want to expand the community then as a whole we need to HELP each other! If you’re in a game and someone asks you how you did a move…TELL THEM! Don’t laugh and say…for me to know and u to find out! This is the type of attitude that kills games. When I first started this game no one would tell me anything. Sure I read the manual but that was not a lot of help in the real game environment. It took nearly three weeks before a nice guy helped me out with my moves and showed me a few tricks. On my Jeidmod server I have a key bound to all of the commands so that I can help anyone at any time. I also will always help anyone who needs it or wants it. This way people can learn the game and love it as we do. Also do not call anyone a nOOb. That pisses them off and will send them back to play Counterstrike. Help them! If you do that then we will have very few nOOb players left. I will keep my server up for as long as I have players on it. And that brings up another point. Many a night I see a list of a few hundred servers but almost half are either empty or locked. So we do have lots of places to play, just not enough players. This is why as a community it would be better to run servers of all one patch type or a mod that makes the master server think they are all the same....hmmmm A great mod would be one for the server admins. It would allow them to make custom changes to the game play based on the “type” of version they want to play while still making the server appear to be a 1.04 version. Then in your cfg you could change the settings to reflect 1.02, 1.03 or 1.04. This would, at the least, bring all of the servers into the same list. I would write it if I was able to, but alas I am unskilled in this area. If it was a dl of saw less than 700k most players would wait for it. And if we all had it.... Just an idea…...or a mad ramble But I will play this game until it does die, but I see that a long way off!

Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons. The review process used at the Massassi Temple seems quite good imho but most of the 'come back and find/review me after you've tried me' review/download schemes just don't seem viable. With so much user made content of variable quality, I believe we need someone/a group to determine what is quality content and what is not. There would be number of positive results from this : 1) reduced amounts of time the average user spends trying to figure out if content is a waste of space or is actually worthwhile. 2) reduce the effort/time/frustration barrier to ppl new to jk2. Imagine starting jk2 now and trying to make sense of all the new mods/maps/etc. 'But you need the new saber hilt mod, really!' :p 3) it would act as an incentive for content creators to properly finish their work or else their work wouldn't be listed as recommended/quality/etc. This person/group would have to make some tough calls and would certainly get a fair amount of flak for their efforts. However, I do believe the community would be better for this kind of service. Yes, in case anyone recalls, I have mentioned this idea before. I thought the idea was worth repeating however.

Originally posted by taboo Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons. ... I agree that this is a great idea. I'd love to see jediknightii.net host a review site. maybe jk2reviews.jediknightii.net? The current file rating system just doesn't work. I had over 8,000 downloads of ProMod Beta 1 tallied up, but only 11 people actually rating the file. I think that those new to the game would give more consideration to using a new mod, map, or skin if there were actually a detailed review of some of the bigger releases. Kurgan would be a good choice for the job if he's got the time, I think. If you read his strategy guides I think you'll agree that he seems to have his head on straight, and is pretty impartial. Kurgan? How about it?

To answer some replies: D.L Not much I can add to what you already said, since they're mostly opinions and people are bound to have different experiences. I interpert "the game is dead/dying" to indicate that fewer and fewer people are interested in the game, to the point where the community itself is emptying out. I don't see that happening. I see people coming and going. It's the people saying that the game IS dying that I'm disagreeing with, and what my comments were directed towards. Most of the reasons I've heard people give for their notion that the game is dying fall into those categories (and I don't agree with them). Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players. True, but you've got to admit, that many players fall into predictable patterns themselves. How many times have we been in a game and had somebody who only knew one or two moves with the saber or only one weapon they used over and over? How often have you tricked somebody with the same booby trap or sniper position over and over to have them cuss you out and leave/try to get you vote-kicked? Sure, bots aren't perfect, but once you get good at the game, it can often be tough to find people who are still better than you (I'm not saying they don't exist, I personally believe that there are always "better players" you just might not meet them every day). Bots can also be edited, I might add.... Good comments. I'm just a little jaded, because I remember hearing those comments when JK1 had been out a year and with the JK2 community almost as soon as the game had been released (I guess the warez kiddies beat the game the first day they downloaded it and then basically said the game was dead when it was finally released to the rest of the world??). I see the mod community as a potentially limitless source of innovation to inspire people to keep playing the game. There is (believe it or not) still a Doom/2 community, and not just the people waiting for Doom3. Why? Because there's so many tools and sources available, people can do all kinds of impressive things. And the game is still being sold, inspite of it being totally obsolete in terms of graphics, sound, gameplay, etc. Now granted, most people don't consider "Doom 2" to be a viable commercial giant, but the property certainly is viable, and the game is so cheap and old, just about anybody can get it and run it. So saying a new game like JK2 is dead is short-sighted I think. In a sense, no good game ever need "die" as long as people are still willing to mod it, even if all of the major servers dry up and we only see a few private games here and there. But if mods are still coming out, and servers are still up, I don't think the game can be called "dead" by any stretch of the imagination. "Dying" could only really be gauged by total sales I suppose. If the game is no longer being sold, then I guess its "dead" in that sense. People need to realize (don't want to sound too much like a broken record here) that many things affect the community's size. Realize that people buy new games at different times. The entire JK2 community was NOT born March 28, 2002. New people are joining and leaving all the time. People buy games when they go on sale, or when they get tired of their other games, or when they buy gifts for people (gift-buying seasons like Christmas dramatically increase sales of entertainment items in general). Stuff like promotions (stuff like that Gateway Challenge) and new patches and mods may help introduce people to the game or get them to come back to playing it or play it more often. People in different parts of the world may discover the game at different rates. People in Country A didn't get the game until much later than Country B, so they are just discovering it. Somebody who hadn't heard of the game until after they saw Episode 2 in theatres and went to the store to look for SW games is going to be new to the game. The release of an official expansion would inevitably bring some new people in. The point is that the community is a dynamic affair. I think the way some people talk, they act as if its a simple fixed number of players, and this number simply dwindles as time goes by. That may happen over the long run (we're talking years here) but look at it this way... Raven could in theory release a new expansion every year or so and if each one was popular, people could still be theoretically buying new copies of JK2 three or four years from now. Not saying that will happen, but for games like The Sims and Half Life, that's basically true. More comments to come....

As to writing reviews for mods, I'd love to do that (when I get time) as I've written reviews before. While they can take a lot of time, they are usually fun (the "research" is the fun part.. heh). As to a review site for JK2.net, I'll just have to say "wait and see..." Some seem to be saying that bad mods hurt a game. I would probably agree, assuming those bad mods are highly visible. Whereas good mods help a game, if people know about them. Either way, YOU can do something to help the community out by making good mods, and being a good sport when you play, agreed. As far as "being a Jedi" going out of fashion, I doubt it. People wanted to be Jedi for the 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace (14 years between ROTJ and the Special Editions), and LEC and their support companies have many more "Jedi" games in the works. But those movies DO help raise people's interest, but they're not the only source of interest. ; )

Hehe, i'm almost 30 and a little wee part of me still want to be a jedi when i grow up. :) I would think that making the good mods more visible would be exactly what a review site would do. I'm not suggesting that bad mods get buried/lost, but that good mods are highlighted, reviewed and explained. I won't weigh in on whether jk2 is dying or not. However, when I first got my grubby little hands on this game I was awestruck. The single player was brilliant (a bit annoying in places maybe) and the multiplayer had tons of potential but it quickly became apparent that it needed patching. So I took a step back and have been waiting to see what kind of mp equilibrium would be reached. I imagine that I am not alone in this sense. The patches and mods so far have been rather flimsy in my opinion. They have improved on gameplay somewhat which is good but not enough in my mind. ArtifeX's promod however is more like a jk2 v1.5 ... if it takes off, I think we'll see a lot of renewed interest in jk2. Anyway, just my 2 cents etc

Well Kurgan I could agree with your aurgement that that JKII is not dead if some people still play and some mods are being developed but like you said also that is your definition. To others, their definition is by the amount of people on the servers. When compared to other games that are much older you must admit that the JKII fanbase is small. I for one love this game but I live in Hawaii and I only see 2 or 3 servers with a decent 100 ping (and you know that ain't too hot) and those servers generally have 2-3 people on it. Too ME that looks dead and does not give me a good outlook. Also when guaging wether a game is "dead" or "dying" people cannot help but use comparisons. Look at gamespy stats...70000 people in HL and 6000 in MOH. Heck even UT and Q3 still hit around 4500 a nite. JKII is now down around the 1300 mark. I just feel bad that I am alienated from all the good stuff coming out. I can't ping a Promod server under 400. And the JediMod and JediPlus servers are in the 250 range. I'm on cable but distance kills me. :(

Bots can also be edited, I might add.... Yes, I'm aware of this. I've already edited my bots to make them very fast, very accurate but they are still somewhat predictable. I was actually going to release the bot files for a tougher challenge to those not fortunate enough to be able to play online. On a related note, I can do some reviews for mods/files/etc if needed.

I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June. I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent. I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all. I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above. However, what hasn't been brought up here yet is the fact that a lot of players - avid gamers and also JKI fans - Thought that JO wasn't that good a game to begin with... And I happen to partly agree with that analysis as well. The reason I agree with this is because while there is no other game currently like JO on the market today... If you get right down to it, JO is an appealing game when you first play it, but generally looses its appeal after an extensive period of time (6 months or more)... Because the game itself is very shallow and lacks any depth to it once you get past the "Oo and ahh" phase as someone put it. How is it shallow and lack depth you ask? It's shallow and lacks depth because the main thing the game focused on when it came out was asthetics (and that's what still primarily attracts people more than anything else). I'm referring to the lightsaber, level design, SW Universe Character representations, etc. However, actual gameplay -- Even in 1.2 -- Was still lacking in many aspects and in particular, any real skill once you got past all of the asthetics (and it's only gotten worse). I think this is important to note as it reflects not just the competitive players attitudes, but average players like myself. MP saber battles in 1.2 -- aside from the "feather glance kill bug" -- Were mostly about luck. If you recall, this was one of the complaints that a lot of people expressed when they asked Raven to make MP saber battles to be more like the SP porption. Then we got 1.3 which was a total cluster f*ck anyway you put it. It divided the community not only because of the technical bugs it introduced into the game (spammed, one-hit kill moves), but because it also touched on something that I think the JO community had been trying to avoid until then and that is it revealed a side of players -- and brought in a certain type of player -- That the JO community thought existed in "other" games and wasn't present in JO... At least not yet since the game was still relatively new when 1.3 came out. I'm talking about the kind of players who fully admitted to using the one-hit kill moves and other exploits just so they could be number one on the kill board at the end of a match with that being their ONLY goal, foregoing the social aspect or anything remotely ressembling "civilzed" online behavior. These kinds of players were usually the more immature players and basically the ones many would classify as "asses" or "jerks" that need to be voted off from time to time... And while these players exist in all games... They really started to come out of the wood-work when 1.3 was introduced and this splintered the community with those "jerk" players being at odds with the ones who considered themselves more "ideal" JO players who followed the SW, Jedi code and whatnot. Do you see what I am getting at? I will assume you are smart enough to read between the lines so I will move on... My main point in rehashing all that is the fact that perhaps JO wasn't meant to have a long life as other games that have come before it have? It may not be what anybody wants to hear, but it might be the truth (especially if Raven keeps nerfing things, but I digress...). Now, is the JO Community dying? Like many have said, there are different definitions and interpretations of what "dying" and "dead" are so I won't bother throw my two cents in with regard to this specific question. I will say, however, that if you look at how many servers there active on any given day using Gamespy or All-Seeing Eye, a lot of them ARE empty now and at peak hours when most players could be playing the game, regardless of age; either after school and at night -- And this includes the Modded servers as well and not just the regular 1.2-1.4 servers. Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).

amen for promod!

Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June. I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent. I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all. I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above. ... Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did). You have described nearly verbatim my own "farewell/retirement" post some months ago. I quit for exactly the same reasons, and left my reasons posted publicly in an effor to spur whoever was in control of JK2's future into taking some kind of action to repair the game. It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game. Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase. You are exactly the kind of person that ProMod was created for in the first place. If you haven't tried it, please do. It really does fix a bunch of the beefs you had with the official versions. It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game. It makes the saber fighting, and some other aspects a lot more interesting than before. It really does take skill to win now. Go read the "About" section at the main site (http://www.oculis.org/promod/), then read the strategy section. Find yourself a server, and get into a private duel or duel gametype. You'll see that you're having to do a lot more physical and mental work to win. But don't take my word for it. Just ask those who've been playing ProMod lately.

Originally posted by ArtifeX It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game. Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase. Ya can't please everyone ...

Originally posted by ArtifeX .It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game. If u read my other posts from today you will see how I feel about promod...but for the most part I like it. But other mods do offer things that the original does not and DOES allows the server the ability to increase the skill of the game. The mod that I run most right now is Jedimod v1.2. Under the skin of the emotes is a system that alows for moves that were removed from the game to be put back in. And the ability to change some of the damage skills as well as the zoned damage. Meaning that if you are to slice someone in heavy stance in the head they die...period.I also run always trace saber first, always box trace, ghoul 2 collision and a box trace size of 0 as well as knockback set to 1.2. and lower blocking values...meaning if your swinging you are not blocking.These allow for some serious duels. If you do not know what u are doing then you will die in one move. So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight. But some nights people just want to have fun and goof off. Things like jetpacks and emotes allow for this. Promod is for those who take the game very serious indeed, and sometimes I like that. Other times goofing off is more fun.

Originally posted by Sith Maximus So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight. I wasn't specifically referring to jedimod1.2, or any of the other mods. I was only trying to differentiate ProMod from the average mod you'll find in the jkii.net files section. You're right, jm1.2 is great for goofing off with the emotes and such. Some of the more role-play-style jk2'ers have told me they use it for that reason. I can understand that. Nobodi Kenobi doesn't sound like he runs with that crowd. I was attempting to tell him that ProMod concentrates on substantive gameplay, which is what he seems to crave.

Originally posted by Sith Maximus So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight. ProMod changes the way the game "feels" not just the way it "looks" The new Footspeed changes have brought back that fast and fluid feel of the original without bring back the bugs. No longer is the game full of constant slow downs. The blocking system is reliable, you know what is going to happen when you block. You don't have these partial break or some buggy system that sometimes blocks and sometimes doesn't. The game feels much more polished then 1.04 and any of the Mods that run the same system with a few extras. Other Mods are great fun, but thats it. Deep down at their core they are the same as 1.04, they just have some added features. ProMod has a different system, that is almost as radical as the change from 1.02 to 1.03.

Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4. These are the defaults. My new setting are about 20% higher. Notice the box trace settings. If you have not played this way then you need to before you post a comment..not bitching....just I think you need to test these settings. mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1 mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2) mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120) mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack) mod_rspmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 180) (Jump Attack) mod_rbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 2) mod_rbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 30) mod_yspmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 2) (DFA) mod_yspmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 80) (DFA) mod_ybsmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 2) mod_ybsmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 25) mod_yellowdmg; - Damage of Yellow Stance Standard Attack (default 60) mod_bspmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 2) (Lunge) mod_bspmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 30) (Lunge) mod_bbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 2) mod_bbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 30) mod_bluedmg; - Damage of Blue Stance Standard Attack (default 30) mod_ospmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 2) (Tornado) mod_ospmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 70) (Tornado) mod_obsmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 2) mod_obsmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 25) mod_orangedmg; - Damage of Orange Stance Standard Attack (default 55) mod_pspmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 2) (DFA2) mod_pspmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 70) (DFA2) mod_pbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 2) mod_pbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 25) mod_purpledmg; - Damage of Purple Stance Standard Attack (default 30) Saber stuff: seta g_saberboxtracesize "-1" seta g_saberdmgvelocityscale "1.2" seta g_saberdmgdelay_idle "350" seta g_saberdmgdelay_wound "0" seta g_saberghoul2collision "1" seta g_sabertracesaberfirst "1" seta _saberalwaysboxtrace "1" And yes Promod has a different "feel" to it than other mods. If you also read you will see that I do LIKE Promod, others on my server did not. Blocking in the current Jedimod/Jediplus is also a variable command. You can make it higher or lower. At lower settings you do not block unless you are not swinging your saber. A swinging saber is open to attacks because it is unable to fully block them. seta mod_blockscale "0" This setting means NO autoblocking. If you swing and miss and your opponent has an opening that they can use to strike before you bring your hands back to the ready position to block....then you are prob dead. This settings in plain english means do not swing unless you know your going to hit someone. This comes from lots of practice. Most servers I have been on none of these settings have been used and indeed it is just a "window" dressing of 1.04. But the way I have the saber damage set and the way the blocking works is more like 1.02, which is what I feel Promod is a close kin to in many ways. Also I get no slowdowns on my server of any kind and if you feel that Jedimod/Jediplus it is a slower game it is not.... seta mod_timescale "1.2"//default is 1.0 This setting speeds the game up sligtly and takes away the "slow" feeling of standard 1.04. I think all mods have a place...Promod for those fans who take games in general very serious, and the other mods for those who play for fun. I find myself in the middle....so I will play both. I just felt that it was time someone got to the plate and took a swing for jedimod/jediplus. But the clients speak out the most. I ran Promod for 2 1/2 hra last night and had three (including me) clients. twocame because they always do, one was even my co admin, and I sent them the Promod link. No others came to my door. Then, at their request, I launched the Forcemod and within five minutes of being up we were full. If Promod becomes the dominating mod then I will run it reguardless of what others feel. But for now I will stick to the most part Jedimod and Jediplus with the heavily modified settings I have talked about here.

All this negative talk makes a n00b like me discouraged. I just got the game and am looking for some good games. But all I hear is nerfed weapon balance and spam/cheap moves. What would you vets suggest for a beginner? Where can one find good servers to train/play without having to put up with any immature crap? Thnax in advance.:o

didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou *hears echos of you were right spy* Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it. Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers

Yes this game is on the brink of death, new players are few and far between now, this is down to th eridiculous number of mods available, its just messed everything up.:mad:

Originally posted by Jedi Spy didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou *hears echos of you were right spy* Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it. Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers And the constant threads bitching about 1.03, 1.04, DFA, Red Stance, Backstab, Cheating, Bugs in the game and so on and so forth wouldn't have had the same effect regardless of this thread? No one is disputing the game itself. Obviously if you are posting here, you are still playing it. This thread is looking at the future (or lack thereof, for some people) of the game. He's from NYC as it plainly says under his avatar.

Originally posted by Sith Maximus Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4.... mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1 mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2) mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120) mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack) ... This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit? How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server? I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level. The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).

We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook. You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless". Different saber colors was a very requested feature before Tchouky began doing his mod. A very good mod at that. Scaling models? What about Yoda? It was necessary to get scaling working to make him into the game. Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact). No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

Originally posted by ArtifeX This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit? How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server? I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level. The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage). Ah man artifex, You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit. Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme. ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...

Originally posted by ASk You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless"... That's not what I'm saying at all. The idea that I was trying to get across was that the community doesn't need any more mods that do things like this. They've been done already. The modding community needs to focus on widening the gameplay options rather than tweaking things that have been done in other mods. The saber combat modifications of ProMod are only one example of that. There are innumerable other ways to enhance the fun of the game than by adding more cosmetic mods to the mix. I actually think the customizable saber color mod that tchouky did adds significantly to the gameplay. It makes it very easy to tell one player from another from a distance when both players have the same or similar models. I actually plan to include something similar in one of my next releases. I would just hope that someone doesn't try to release a tchouky-saber-color++ mod. ... Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact). I'll admit that the grappling hook comment was just my opinion. You can jump 20 meters straight up in this game, after all. That would just seem to make them unnecessary to me. Jedi vs. Merc I can see them being useful though. No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod. Though i don't think anyone needs "permission" to speak their mind here, I wasn't calling anyone's mod "useless". I do think that the mod makers should take some responsibility for the mods they release, and decide whether their release will further confuse new players and water down the pool of jk2 mods.

Personally i thought the hit damage in 1.04 was not bad, better when toned down but there's too many mods now, all different damage and there's no point in learning tactics unless you stick to one server.

Originally posted by Jah Warrior Ah man artifex, You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit. Damages changed from what? 1.02? 1.03? 1.04? Damages have always been in a state of flux. ProMod's damage scale is just an attempt to bring them into balance. The blue stance's lunge swing damage only varies by about 5-10 points in ProMod, btw. Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme. ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said... Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice. Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :)

you jsut have to spring it on them and they're dead no prob.

Originally posted by ArtifeX I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level. The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. True a learning curve can happen from server to server and it does depend on the way that the server has been setup. But by playing a mod they should realize that it will not be a standard game in any way and they should ask what changes have been made. Plus as far as style go...I do not change mine from game to game. I stick with what I know and use it to the best of my ability. All of the basic saber moves are the same from gametype to gametype. As for new players myself or my co admin always asks if they know how to do the air lunge for example. If they do not we will show them. Heck I even let people kill me every night just to show them how things work. Most people who visit me come back to play again becuase of the way I have it setup as well as the variations in gametypes. Some times its fun to be serious and other times its fun to just have fun. I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server. Games need variety thats for sure, look at Quake, UT or Halflife. These games survive and flourish with variety. Jedimod was made for the crowd who wanted to "get jiggy" with a lightsaber or a destroyer saber. You get to taunt your attackers in all sorts of ways or just sit down and relax for a while. The fun is in the extras for most players. I duel my coadmin and a select core of players most nights. We take the game a little more serious than the others, but I want everyone to enjoy themselves. You wanted a more difinitive combat style system, so you made it. And it is great for what it is. I have even upped my damage scales to make the saber fights more about skill and less about flair. But all mods have their place. Next month Jedimod will prob be replaced by something else. Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models. I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.

The only true fault with 1,04 is the fact that the blue lunge is capable of double hitting, 80 hp from a move that can be pulled off instantly if you time it right, that just aint right.

Originally posted by Sith Maximus ... I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server. ... You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced. Just ask Zero how many times I've carved him up like a turkey with Blue stance. :) Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models. I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line. At some point I will be adding some more cosmetic details such as the RGB sabers (though it won't be Tchouky's), but I've been pretty vocal in my resistance to the model scaling idea. I haven't yet seen an implementation that handled this in a way that preserves game balance. The fact that 80% of the normally-scaled saber swing animations go over the head of the scaled-down Yoda model (sometimes even when ducking) makes this just too great of an advantage.

nobodys at your server so Im really bored and have too much free time

Originally posted by ArtifeX Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice. Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today. :) Man you aint swinging it right then, if you time it right for when the opponent is in an attack it will cut the poor sod in half, my main gripe with promod is that its far too easy. I actually had to pull the mod off my server because it got to the point where you can win sooo easily with an easy shot that people were winning 20-30 matches in a row (not naming names... ok it was me;) ) some people got the real hump because it had shuffled the deck so much. Ultimately this may sound contradictory, but i really loved promod it was ingenious if flawed. I'll wait till its finished then give it another go, but in the mean time I cant put up with the bugs - turning dfas,lunges, running around during yellow finisher and spinning backstabs. may aswell go back to 1.03 LOL. Anyways Artifex if you want someone who is a sceptic to test your mod rather than one of your fanclub let me know and you will get an honest appraisal of it rather than simply fawning to you. Damn this sounds pissy but hey I'm speaking my pissy little mind. ;)

I suggest you guys go discuss ProMod in another thead. It's off topic here.

To Jah Warrior The downward Red slash is SOOOOOO easy to avoid or counter that if you get hit with it, well then DIE!! It will take no time for people to actually anticipate it and make it damn near impossible to land. What is this nonsense that people win over and over. I've played Promod a lot and I NEVER get owned by that silly swing. Also the turning DFA, yellow DFA, and spinning backstabs happen very rarely. They are still less of a bother then random blocking. This is just my opinion, please don't go all apesh!t on me. I really don't understand why you are so anti-strong hits. Also Razorace this topic is about JKII dieing and ProMod is one of the things breathing life back into it. Your constant anti-Promod attitude is starting to tick me off. If you don't want to read about it, skip the posts that cover it.

Originally posted by ArtifeX You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced. I shall do that, thanks. Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game. Yoda may be small but he is wicked fast and quite hard to hit even for a std size player. In blue stance Yoda kicks some serious behind. On the other side the wookie has great reach, but is slowed down as well, just as in real life. Your mod has made the combat somewhat more realistic than std JK2 so the addition of different model sizes should only improve the game. Your welcome to come to Crazy Yoda to see what I mean. Dueling with a yoda is far different than with a wookie for the average player. Oh just so we dont get slammed again......... I LOVE RED STANCE. RED STANCE IS GOOD. RED STANCE MAKE ME WIN.:D