Kurgan -

As an admin, I would think you'd be above using words like fanboy in a derogatory fashion?

Here's my point. Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast? :)

No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast . And no matter how much some would like have to Q3 or UT with Star Wars textures, certain things about the SW universe are pretty much untouchable, such lightsabers being the primary weapon of a Jedi. Even the dark ones. We're not even talking about role-playing here, its just intrinsic to the SW universe..You have the ability to use the force you pretty much stick to the lightsaber unless you're flying around blowing up a Death Star or two.
A good point was brought up a few posts back about inserting something crazy like a gun that shoots lightsabers into Medal of Honor, or a crouch jump invulnerability exploit, using your logic of "balance" and "fun", how would you explain to people that it is ok when they complain "hey, these lightsaber wielding nazi's are tearing up the 82nd airborne, what gives?"

Would your response be to suspend your 'fanboy' fascination of what should have been going on in WW2 for the sake of a balanced and fun game? (Both pretty subjective terms).

As to the two games you mentioned, one of them is console only, and the other would be GREAT if it wasn't going to cost 14.95 a month to subscribe like every other MMRPG out there.

One last point, in all the pre-release, development hype in all the magazines, websites, etc, I don't recall ever seeing a phrase like "JK series is back, it's time for Jedi all over to fire up their trusty spam cannon and send the stormtroopers packing with their alt fire!" It's been about the saber ;)

TDS

It is quite simple. You want to bunny-hop, go and play Quake. It looks completely out of place here. A jedi simulation this may not be, but there is no need to deliberately destroy the Star Wars atmosphere.

There seems to be a strong correlation between supporters of bunny-hopping and those who wish nothing more than to win, win, win in the games. Perhaps you need to learn to appreciate gaming as a fun activity, something that is not connected with "owning", "dominating" or "being a pro". Some very pathetic people here. :(

Just a note on the gun issue though. That is something I have little problem with and in fact encourage. It seems quite strange having so many Jedi running around. The "special ability" of them is lost.

FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS

the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..

I played quake 3 a lot and strafe jumping made it much better. It made travelling around the map bareable because you didn't spend ages running from place to place. Furthermore, as in jedi knight especially with lightsabers, it doesn't help you when your actually fighting. It makes it more difficult. It is an effective method of escape but there are many others that people would use, It is not hard. The only issue is in cty when it does cause an imbalance. I don't use strafe jumping because with force jump its too difficult and to be honest i haven't seen many others using it either. On the whole i don't think its a major problem because cty is a load of crud anyway :), its difficult to do and not many people are doing it anyway.

oh, so lukey boy destroyed the death star by sheer will power? or with a light saber?

dark ones dont either?
i guess kyp durron killed millions without a supernova causing weapon...im sure that using a shotgun is COMPLETELY out of hte realm of star wars...after all, something that causes a star to go supernova is COMPLETELY reasonable, but a shotgun...pff...that is soo...stupid...

COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...

by the way, if the name jedi outcast does denote 'supposed to be used without shotguns' why should we be able to use a disruptor? hmm?? that has been outlawed....a jedi wouldnt be breaking the law would he?

maybe we shouldnt use some force powers because they would portray negative connotations to those we are using them on...the golden rule should apply...

maybe we should take out the weapons altogether...hmm..not a bad idea.....well, maybe we shouldnt use the name outcast...it could make someone feel badly about themselves...hmm...maybe jedi is too strong of a word....after all, we dont want to make those who arent a jedi feel left out...and i also know a few people who arent knights...hmm....maybe we can just call this 'the politically correct game' hmm...some people arent politicians...how about the game!! that would work!!!

we could just run around and live in real life!!! it could be like the sims!! the star wars community would love it!!!

therefore, im not going to play jedi outcast..its too awful.....

If you want a perfect "jedi simulator" you won't find one.. anywhere. Games are meant to be played.. and when multiplayer comes in, the developers seek "balance" and "fun," and strict adherence to canon and fanboy rules takes a backseat. That's just a fact...

I'm sure Raven did their best to stay true to the SW universe. The game is supposed to revolve around a person being an Jedi, and the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly haven't invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! And I quite frankly can't see neither "balance" nor "fun" in strafe jumping, much more the opposite is witnessed when you play a multiplayer game of JK2 today....so thats simply a silly comment....

I agree with you, games ARE meant to be played, but why on earth do we have to learn to exploit a bug in the game to be on par with other players? I can't really see who benefits from this. The fan of racing games? People with a need for speed perhaps? This just doesn't fit into the game.....

The shooter genre has its limitations

It sure has, and it's even possible to fix it....but there seems to be a group of people who opposes the hords of people who wants to remove bugs from the game....strange isn't it?

Personally, I think that some people will never be satisfied. It just isn't the game developers job to disable every single feature he put into his game that doesn't fit into your view of what "Star Wars" should be, sorry to say.

It doesn't matter what universe we are set in! Human beings DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FLY!

Originally posted by TheDarkSide
FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS

I hope so. OFP was great in that you never got those times. If you are concerned about losing or dying then it certainly wasn't the game for you. :)

Originally posted by hughJ
the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..

There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down. It is a typical mindset that I've come across online and I don't like playing with them. They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike".

Originally posted by thrEEpaGe
COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...



Sorry, but did you not read half the posts people have made here? There are certain features in each genre. Using you're argument, we could put laser guns into Medal of Honour, or B-17s in Star Wars. Just because it is fantasy does not mean it doesn't have borders. There's a reason I own JO but none of Quake 1, 2 or 3, Unreal or Half-life. I didn't/don't care for their settings. I certainly don't recall anyone in Star Wars bunny-hoping.

riiiiight....

"the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly havent invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! "

so i guess the force is all a hoax....

well, how much in the books OR movies do you hear people complaining about their mana running out? or that they are switching to a different saber stance? or that they cant force jump that high....

all star wars games cannot compare to the sheer openness and freedom offered by the movie force...while this isnt directly related to bunny hopping, it shows that no game can be perfect



find me a first person shooter that doesnt have exploits!!!!!!!!!!!

you are naive to think that this is the only problem with the game...

you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!

maybe we should take away aiming all together, because some people might not have as good aim as others....hm?

it offers dynamics, to stay ahead of the curve, to get better at people

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....

Originally posted by thrEEpaGe

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....

Ohh, I see, just because other games have problems we shouldn't be voicing our discontent and asking if some of the issues can be fixed. Right, I get where you're coming from. We're supposed to keep our mouths shut if we're not quite happy with something. I wonder how many of the current game features have been taken from fan comments from the past ones. What about patches? The fans' voices play the major part in helping to design them.

If you don't like the compliants... well you can always stop reading.

you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!

Why should this happen? This isn't Quake.

You're also contradicting yourself here. Firstly you say it is part of the game then you suggest that its exploitation.

"There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. "

it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...

"These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down..." "...They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike". "

imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...

not to jump on my elitist pedestal or anything, but most of the actually great players I know (in various games), really tend not to say anything at all when playing on public servers... public servers are a place to relax in a laid-back atmosphere, without any of the pressures that can go along with actual competition.. people whom complain like that on public servers tend to *think* they are better than they actually are (imo)..

Originally posted by hughJ
it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...

May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed? Combining the two does not make you go faster, but a bunny-hopper can out stay ahead of someone using speed. I think it quite clear that this was an oversight on the developers' part.

And this "best they can" comment you make... where does that end? The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating... is that then acceptable because I want to be "the best I can"? Or in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had... again, not a hack, or any kind of programming, a very simple "technique", should I be allowed to use it? I fail to see why people are incapable of playing a game along a normally. What is wrong with simply enjoying taking part? What about spawn killing? That'll get you many kills and sometimes is a great tactic if you want to stop the enemy from attacking your base. That is a technique, but is it alright? Or base raping? Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of all their vehicles so they would take 30 mins to reach your flag and the game would slow to a crawl for one side. 95% of servers I went on had unofficial rules that banned this.

imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...

No, I simply said that they tend to hold specific mindsets. This is from my experience. Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty. You ask them questions (not even asking them to stop), they start to go off at you on one. They also tend to be the ones writing "owned" and "I rule" at the end of rounds. Hell will freeze over before you see them complimenting someone on a good shot/move.

can we please stop with the 'bunny-hopping' thing..
i'm not trying to be elitist or something like that but it does sound gay.

it was first called 'strafe jumping', and it should be still. because that's what you use, jump and strafe.

something got skewed on CS and the new comers, oh well.

JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.

another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.

and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.

so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.

"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"

"Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty"
-then I'll stand by my statement that those people who are like that, likely just think they are better than they actually are.. (an undeserved large ego)

Kurgan == True

// eof

:D

Seriously though, I'm not gonna argue in strafe jumping's favour - it's been done and countered so much so it's nearly a moot point. I'm gonna say:

All you guys complaining strafe jumping offers an unfair advantage, and that force speed is rendered useless against a strafe jumping yaslamarlamarema... "that animal thing" carrier must have your heads screwed on backwards. Level three force speed combined with a force jump or roll and you're on ANY strafe jumper with no force powers.

I'm a strafe jumper whether I think it fits the SW universe or not - old habits die hard - playing any FPS after UT was a bit difficult, dodging across platforms and out of the way of rockets often met with an untimely demise O_o

Where was I? Oh yeah - strafe jumping - deal with it. It's there, and there's next to nothing you can do about it - as many people want it removed as want to keep it, so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

That last sentence was AWFUL. Ah laziness, why do you always prevent me from sorting it out... :)

ME DONE :D

I started a poll here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41849)
Go vote so we can get an accurate assessment of the community.

I am personally against strafe-jumping. I am in perfect agreement with everything that 70-228 and TheDarkSide said, so I won't repeat their arguments.

Edit: fixed link

Originally posted by hughJ
"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"

It's use in other games is of little concern to me. If Quake/Unreal players want to do it, fine, they can. I'm arguing for it not to be in JO, because a)I don't think the developers thought it was supposed to be used and b) it doesn't fit.

Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?

Originally posted by metsu
JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.

You assume that they guy who has it is right next to you. What if it is CTY and you're trying to catch up with them? You can't.

another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.

My heart bleeds for them. They shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.

I'd disagree. It took me all of 15 seconds to do it once I'd been told how to. Tapping, as opposed to holding, the jump button is not hard.

so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.


The force powers are another issue.

Originally posted by Craggeh
so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that want to play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

...

That last sentence was AWFUL.


No offense... but if people bought this game JUST for the bunny hop... then I couldn't care less if they threaten to quit if Raven fixes the bug!

My sentences are awful too :P

I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? :D I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^

"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..

"The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating"
-not a technique

" in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had"
-not a technique

"What about spawn killing?"
-strategy, not technique

"base raping?"
-strategy also

"Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of..."
-strategy

most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...

one of my prior posts:
"...bunnyhopping..." [or any technique or ingame strategy] "...is fine when it adds something to gameplay, without causing imbalances..."

like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...

I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...

i forgot about that capture the y-thing. but then again.. don't expect everything to be served in a platter. change your play style.. don't just all gang up at the flag and put some intercepters in mid field.
that's also another argument. ;)
-
one could also make the same argument about strong slashes, but hey.. you can do it too. all players have the same abilities(discounting force configurations).

Originally posted by Craggeh
I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? :D I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^

Weird. Although I am complaining about it, I should make it clear that I don't find many people doing it... only a few. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite response with other players starting to get frustrated everytime someone does it.

If it "REALLY" changes the gameplay for you then perhaps you need to learn to play a bit better. ;)

30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.

In FFA, you rarely need to strafe jump, so I don't think it's about me playing better at all ;) ;) ;)

:eek:

That has to be the best smilie EVER!

Originally posted by hughJ
"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..

Check out your dictionary. The two words are closely linked to the idea of an "art". Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er).

most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...

No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting. We've established that it is imbalanced in JO. No one here is moaning about banning it from Quake, but from JO.

like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...

Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level.

I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...

You're argument was "this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player". Spawnkilling, base raping etc, none of them are these. It has nothing to do with whether you hack into the game or not, but playing it in the right spirit. As we've established, the "bunny-hopping" (sorry I don't really care what the official name is :) ) makes speed pointless in this game. It is not a legit technique OR tactic.

Originally posted by Craggeh
30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.

Exactly. And we're back to where we started... the need to win. Tis a sad world we live in.

Having read through the thread I wanted to post my small opinion:

In pubs, I don't do it. There's no need. There isn't enough organization on an opposing team usually to require it. I also view it as a cheap tactic on a pub. I'm on a pub to play for fun, generally you are playing cowboy unless you've got some clanmates on as well and it isn't about winning it's about playing for the heck of it.

In league play....it depends. If my force level is down, my force speed is about to run out and I'm low on shields and health I've got a 50/50 shot at doing it depending on how close I am to my flag stand. If it's a difference between a loss or a tie; or a tie and a win? Heck yeah I'll do it. The idea is to move up the ladder and defend your position. That's competitive play, you use the tools available to you: guns sabers, physics of the engine. You don't cheat, you don't script, you use the game and your skills.

If Raven takes it out or nerfs it, it's no big deal to me. I love the game with or without strafe jumping.
Geez, folks sure get heated about the smallest things on these forums. I'm not flaming here, but it is a game you are supposed to enjoy; not raise your blood pressure to feverish levels over.
:)

Have a day!

FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

[clan]player1: Hey! We made that cap over ten minutes of holding ground, getting backup in there and some develishly clever use of force push - what happened?

[clan]player2: A guy challenged me to a duel! Hella fun! :D :D :D

...

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^

"No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting"
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...

"Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er)."
-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..

"Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level"
-I haven't changed anything... from the very start in my posts, I have been speaking of technique being fine, as long as it doesn't upset game balance and ultimately hurt gameplay... gameplay balance is referring to whether or not the use of a certain technique upsets or bypasses the other built in elements of a game.. it is perfectly possible to have a competitive mindset with the urge to learn new things, without being win-at-all-costs to the point of not caring about game balance... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...

"You're argument was..."
-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques, and that learning bunnyhopping doesn't simply yield immediate gains and make a person a better or more effective player... but that doesn't have to mean that someone willing to learn something new doesn't care about what's best for the game, they just perhaps have a different opinion of what the game is or should be (mainly due to what each person considers as 'fun', to them)

Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.

Now to a point of contention:

Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast? No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast

If you want to be so utterly picky about the title TDS, then I must say the key word here is not Jedi, but OUTCAST. The character the entire series of DF games is based around is not a normal Jedi, but a mercenary and covert operative who uses all weapons, not just the sabre.

Having said that, it should go without saying that the title of a game and the reality of a game, are two different things. I very much doubt residents of San Francisco or Japan bought "Quake" in the hope that it was a useful simulator to prepare them for their next earthshaker. Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.

If you want to go onto JO servers, sit around on platforms taking turns to duel each other with your sabres, merely because you can't be bothered to find a duel server that gives you a decent ping, that's fine, but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. I bought the game, not because I want to pretend that I'm actually a Jedi Knight, but to play the game.

As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) - These folks seem to believe they're the pinnacle of sabreing skill, and about two minutes after each gun kill, when I meet them around a corner and run them through with a nice medium/strong stance while they flail around ineffectually because they haven't figured out how to change stances from "fast" yet, I feel a warm glow. Of course, they then respond with several stock phrases:

1. j00 LUCKAY!!!11
2. j00 H@X!!!11
3. h@ ha ha ah Th@T reD stance is s0 l@me!!!11
4. 0h w0w, n1ce k1ll lam0r, when I was... 3rrr... 0n teh ph0ne...

Or my personal favourite:

5. kick?? KCIK? WAT IS KCIK? j000 HAX!!11

And sometimes, they try to have you voted off the server, just to prove how mature they are.

It has to be said, that people who complain loudly about being shot, are usually people who are incapable of using the guns effectively. They're usually not very good with the sabre either, come to think of it. Guys, if you just want to pretend you're a Jedi, there are plenty of plastic lightsabres on the market.

:p

If however, you're really serious about winning games, (and why would you complain unless you wish to win?) an acceptance of the reality of the game is necessary. There are guns (astonishingly) on guns FFA servers. If you don't use them, chances are you'll lose. If you lose because you haven't bothered to learn how to use the guns, then it's your own fault! Don't blame the guy who just shot you. :rolleyes:

Actually I just realised I'm tired of the whole subject. Bedamned to those who bandy insulting terms about like "gunwh0re," because it's all sour grapes. My last ever word on the subject. :D

-It boggles my mind that some people are SO ompatient that they can't stand to run across the map with force speed on or even at the regular pace.

-"Bunny hopping" you don't like the term because you're not supposed to. Its a form of insult. You call it strafe jumping... people who don't like it call it bunny hopping.

- "JK2 is a first person shooter.. you know what that means? It means it isn't a Star Wars movie.. it's an action game, about blowing stuff up and shooting things. Sure, there's lightsaber action in there too, but the essence of the Dark Forces series has always been the first person shooter. "

Those of us who are against strafe jumping are against it because we feel it ruins the ambience of the game. This IS a first person shooter but its a fps called JEDI KNIGHT. If you were to strafe jump in Quake I wouldn't give a crap because the game isnt based around a certain reality which JEDI KNIGHT is. The whole reason that the majority of us bought this game is because it is Star Wars affiliated not just because we wanted a new FPS. We don't want to role play anything but we certainly want the image of the Star Wars world to be upheld and a bunch of guys continually leaping about to move faster is, sadly, not part of the Star Wars image.
Now I personally can accept the fact that those of you who choose to use it do. I don't think that it should be in the game due to balance issues but regardless, if you want to use it, go right ahead. But don't be suprised if you are on a server and find yourself booted or that most of the other players have left... and don't chalk it up to the fact that you think we can't handle your 133t strafe-jumping skills... we just find your ridiculous antics irritating.

Booted for strafe jumping?

The day that happens is the day I start to really question the servers I play on...

Maybe you should.... if you came my game and started strafe-jumping... I MAY boot you. Depends how I'm feeling. People certainly don't HAVE to let you play if they don't want to.

As I said ... I think it looks ridiculous and I find it irritating. I might boot you. And don't misunderstand that as meaning I find it more difficult to kill you. I have no trouble killing bunny hoppers in Quake and I am sure the same will hold true for JKO.

You should question who you're playing with. Some people just aren't in it for the win but the fun and the atmosphere and the argument that strafe-jumping makes you a more effective player just doesn't hold water with those types because they are looking for fun and not kills.

In the Rune community there were a lot of people that I played with that were in it for a good solid fight and not for the kills... a lot of people. Even if they lost a fight they might rave about it because they had fun. That didn't make them any less skilled as players, it just means their priorities are in a different place.

*sigh*

I don't see strafe jumping as a crazy advantage - it's habit. I don't strafe jump to gain the upper hand, I do it because it gets me around the map faster, which means I'm in the action more, which means ... *GASP* more FUN!

I love a close fight - win or lose I'll come out of it having enjoyed it - hindsight will also help me find flaws in how I was playing and next time maybe get that final jab/swipe/shot.

Generalisation... ¬¬

I think a big problem here is a misunderstanding. I think the majority here are not saying strafe-jumping is a hack or a cheat or even unfair. I think the majority of people are saying it looks silly. We want the game to look and feel diffrent from other First person shooters thus the desire to get rid of it. There is some players in here who love the Star Wars universe and play the game for that look and feel of Star Wars. They don't want the game to be like every other shooter. I personally don't care about it but I do feel as if "it's not quite right" to see someone jumping down the Bespin shafts jumping every second. I can do it and do it well but I tend to refrain because I want to preserve that semi-real feel to the game. It is a technique (not a hard one though) and it is probably something the developers do themselves. It is in every first-person shooter I can think of so I can't see them missing it. But I must say again don't people want to do something different than all the other First person shooters? Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones? Let's face it the saber is underpowered compared to the alt-fire of almost every weapon so you can own with guns only but then it really it makes the game no different from the Quakes and UT and every other shooter. Sometimes I think people just jumped on Outcast to show off the skills in other shooters cause the know the common techniques. It's almost like jumping on newb servers. You know you will win with some of these techniques so why bother even coming here. Let's break the mold.

c:\tmp

Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones?I didn't see any force powers in quake or ut O_o;

I think that's why I enjoy Outcast so much - it's different and it has a large userbase. Mods that really pushed the boat out in other games were shunned most of the time O_o

Oh, and the fact that it's Star Wars related helps a tiny bit, too :D

Right, we have Force powers, so instead of hopping around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in Quake, people hop around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in the Star Wars Universe. Just because they traded in rocket-whoring for grip-whoring doesn't make me feel "wow, STAR WARS!"

¬¬

Grip whoring isn't nearly a problem... nor is rocket whoring in any other game O_o; Not that that's particularly on topic - moving swiftly on...

What would make you feel "WOW! STAR WARS!"? It seems like some people are never happy unless they're complaining... :rolleyes:

There are two styles of speeding up using jumps. The first is bunny hopping, and that is pretty much relegated to Quake 1 engines. In this, You get a boost either from a conc grenade, a rocket, or some explosive, OR you can use a ramped surface to give you an extra edge of speed. Then, using ONLY the strafe left or right keys and the mouse (along with jump, duh) you hop along, using the mouse to steer you. You can get a ton more speed with this than you can with the Q3 engine. Bunny hopping is something the oldschoolers know of more.

Strafe jumping is the function in the Q3 engine where you can use that little boost of speed you get at a strafe and continue it while hopping. However, the Q3 engine (and JKII, consequently) have retained the ability to use an angled surface to catch speed. Find a hill, jump off the top with no force boost, and when you hit, jump again immediately. Notice how fast you get going - and how you can continue moving that fast as long as you hop.


The only time I use it is in FFA games with duels where I want to get to the action quickly. =] I feel the same about CTF as some of you - it just doesn't feel right to me in this game.

Originally posted by Craggeh
FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^

Yes, he does, but as he pointed out there is a difference between public and league games. If the league spirit is about win, win, win (and I haven't ever taken part in it so I don't really know) then that's fair enough, since the organisation is about victory. Public servers are something else though. Please don't bring that mentality into those areas, that is what I ask. Keep it in one place.

Originally posted by hughJ
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...

Ok, but my comments are directed at JO. as I said, I don't care what they do in Quake.

-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..

It is always related to it. What you do will be related to how you do it, and vv.

... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...

Of course it does in JO. It nulls the use of force speed.

-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques...

I know that is what you said, but you started off trying to point out that bunny-hopping is not a hack. Well, as I said before, neither is spawnkilling and for some that is fun.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.

Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.

Yes and no, but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me. I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life. If the game looked ****ty, then I wouldn;t have touched it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Star Wars theme drew man, many people.

but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. [i]

That's the problem, because I, and others, when experiencing some guy bunny-hopping have visions of Quake being "forced" upon me. The argument goes both ways. Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe. Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.

As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) -

Well you have my support here. There is more to Star Wars than sabres and I do enjoy using the guns. I also enjoying battling, with my sabre, gunners. As a child I never wanted to be a Jedi anyway. I was always for those Stormtroopers. :)

Guns should be easier to play with anyway. It should take some skill for a Jedi to be wielded in battle so well that s/he can be used against all gunners, but once at that level they should be a mighty force. From one of the e-mail replies from Raven I've seen we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.

Don't flame me because i want to know/learn this but how do you bunnyhop? Is it running forward + jumping and the second you hit the ground you tap the jump key again and again and again?

The question of having strafe jumping in Jk2:JO should be answered fairly easily by Raven.

I would just like to know if they want to keep it or not, so i can decide if I want to learn to do it.

Public servers, to my way of thinking, and this comes from my background in Training and teaching Tribes/Clans are filled with a wide variety of players. Some good, some "elite" some brand new, just opened the box, and many average players. My goal is to have fun, and by doing so to allow the other people to have fun on a server as well. (I am speaking in the context of the team based modes of play)

In Tribes 2 this meant no baserape with small teams on public servers and no turtling with the flag. It isn't a situation where you can mount a coordinated offense and defense. You are lucky if you can get 2-3 people to even acknowledge your presence.

The trick is to guage the other players on the server and their relative strengths and weaknesses. If they are ALL wearing clan tags and ALL strafe-jumping then by all means, do it. If there are a bunch of people named: padawan, chances are the only thing you'll do is piss off some newcomers to the game and turn them off to a gametype that you like.

In the end it's about being observant and polite. If you want to foster a community and help newcomers to become average players that will stick around, you answer questions, you listen to them, point out mistakes in a polite manner, teach them rules of ettiquette.

Strafe-jumping isn't wrong in and of itself. It is the use of it in specific situations that seems to annoy people. It has it's place, the trick is to figure out the proper time and place for it.
By my book, public servers would not be the place for it.

Excellent post Fyunch.

It's about the entire community, not *just* win at all costs.

Just something I want to say.

How do you feel it is not a cheat? It exploits a bug in the physics of the engine. A cheat like "wallhack" exploits a bug by using a differen't file which allows you to see through, you people seem to think that because it's a bug and not a program, it's ok to explot.

Lets, just for kicks say there WAS an invincibility crouch-jump bug, would people use it? You better believe people would, because it would give them a huge advantage, not being able to die. This gives an advantage of speed, if you dont want to take so long to run (which really is NOT that far, and if your so impatient, well put points into force speed instead of being an ******* and cheating.)

It really astounds me at how ignorant people can be, ignorant to the fact that it's BUG ABUSE, the SAME as a cheat, you use it so you get that many more points into other things so you dont need to use force speed?

Hows that right? The whole point of the force system is so people have to pick and choose, you dont want to wait to get to a battle? You put those points into force speed, instead of putting them into grip/drain. You know it's wrong, yet you do it anyways, I just cant express how much it astounds me.

I know I'll probably get what I've said used against me, and probably have contridicted my self, but I'm too lazy to check it. This is my opinion, and I'd really like someone to change my opinion so I can see it from your point of view.

TDS:

Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win. If you want to win, bunny-hop right on after him, until the day Raven decides to remove it. Perhaps you have difficulty learning the bunny-hop? If not, it must be a "moral" thing. I may point out, nowhere in the Star Wars universe do the words "Thou shalt not Bunny-Hop" appear. If you don't like bunny-hopping then by all means, petition Raven to remove it... but if you want to win your CTY matches in the meantime, perhaps you should bunny-hop.

And I play quite enough CTY thank you. Perhaps you should play more Quake. :p

but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me

That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe.

I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life.

That's your loss. They're all uniquely interesting games. Unreal and HL especially have enjoyable single-player campaigns too. It strikes me that you appear closed-minded on the subject of First Person Shooters. Again, your loss.

Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe.

I personally have no interest as to whether it is included in the game, or not. It's entirely irrelevant to me.

As to whether hopping is part of the SW universe, I might say for a start, that the "force crystals" mentioned in JO, and popularised throughout the SW literary community, are tenuous at best, as the Lucasian canon does not focus on the inner workings of lightsabres, and at no point suggests that the Force powers the sabres. JK and JO are full of little oddities that are arguably not part of the SW canon. I for one don't care. I don't care whether Stormtroopers are clones, or whether Vader's gauntlets are "supar powar glove0rz." I find the game fun. Fun, being the most important aspect of a game. By picking out aspects you wish to change, you merely tell me that you're not happy with the game as a whole. In which case, you'll be here, picking at loose threads (like bunny-hopping) for all eternity, because there will ALWAYS be oddities in the game's engine that fast-learning players will use to their advantage. I think there are better uses for one's time, like actually playing the game, and having fun playing it, while accepting any little foibles it thrusts upon you as part of the game. By all means, if bunny-hopping is ruining your game, petition Raven to remove it. But you must draw the line somewhere. You can't petition them to remove... say... the Strong sabre stance.

And some people would like to, you know.

Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.

Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.

we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.

Ah, my next question has arrived: why would anyone wish gun-users to be disempowered, unless they dislike the practice of gun-using? What a ludicrous idea that truly is, penalising players who actually want to play the mode the server is set to play.

Frankly, those who complain about so-called "imbalances" between guns and sabres merely wish for their particular force config and playing style, to be the most powerful. Sabreists want the lightsabre to be uber-powerful. Fast stance users want the fast stance to be uber-powerful. Force drain users want Force Drain to be uber-powerful, I mean, good lord! It's a game! Play the game! Make mods for the game if you must, but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others! Let's make no mistake, you're talking about changing the game ITSELF, seemingly just to spite the gunners, and this barely TWO WEEKS after the official release.

I say, LEARN the most powerful config, that works best against the most opponents, and use it. Anything else is laziness and malevolent apathy. Plastic sabres ahoy.

I noticed this in a CTY game the other day on Warring Factions. I was sniping defensively and was at the spot where the disruptor rifle spawns. Most people didn't make it to the flag with me up their. And if they did they didn't bother to kill me. So after they started running back it was a very easy shot in the back to finish them off. Since after you get the flag their is no force power whatsoever that you can use its a real easy target. So one time a group comes up and then I get the group to 1 and the last one had Force speed on when he got the Yaslarmi. And then he started bunny hoppying across the map and was incredibly hard to hit and at first I swore it was force speed because he was moving just as fast as he was before he got the Yaslarmi. It kinda reminds me of skiing back in Tribes 1 :) Also when playing CTY it is extremly easy to bunny hop after you have taken the Yaslarmi because their is no force usage. Therefore you don't risk force jumping instead of regular jumping and screwing your momentum up. Not too many people can do this but its not TOO hard to kill them, just have to have a little better aim :)

If I'm not mistaken strafe-jumping was originally a bug way back when but was intentionally left in Quake 3 because it had become a standard and a favorite by the time quake three came out. But don't mistake this game for Q3. Just because it shares its engine doesn't mean its the same game or should be treated the same. In fact, I long for an FPS that differs itself from the norm... one with some atmosphere, a story or a background and this game should be just that. Not just another FPS.

I don't want to be a jedi and I don't want to roleplay... but being able to suspend a little disbelief for a little while and immerse myself in another environment is just what I want to do. And thats not easily accomplished when some guy hip hops across the map like he's got Flubber™ on his boots.

-"but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others!" -Spider Al
Spider, I know you've said that you don't care if strafe-jumping is in or out but would you be upset if people kicked you from a game or all left as soon as you came in and started strafe-jumping? Maybe... maybe not but I know that there would be more than one person to come here and post about how all the big losers left because he/she was strafe-jumping. And yet, the people who refuse to play with him/her are just trying to play the game the way they want it to be played. They don't want strafe-jumping FORCED on them either. I personally don't give a crap if people do it. It all depends on my mood. On the whole I would prefer it wasn't there but if its going to upset so many people to have it removed... if they simply can't do without it in one game... then they should expect people who don't want to deal with it to not play with them when they use it. And that should be the end of it.

Agree to disagree. Perhaps a codeword... if you don't want people strafe-jumping on your server/in your game then add NSJ (no strafe-jump) at the end of the server name or something we can all agree on. Compromise anyone? I certainly hope some of us know how to do it.... :rolleyes:

I feel compelled to reply, since you put me as the subject of your post, and then proceeded to quote someone else for the entire thing :)

I see where you're coming from on this issue. It's pretty much a matter of how "little" you think a particular oddity is, and that will be directly proportional to how much you either like or could care less about the star wars universe. The whole Dark Forces series is pretty unique as far as FPS'es go. Neither Quake, UT nor even HL took place in a setting that was pretty much pre-defined. No where in the forums discussing the storylines or mods or skins of those games will you ever see the word 'canon' even brought up.

Picture this: you're playing the infinite reincarnation of the venerable football series Madden 2003 on your PS2. Funny thing is though there's an exploit in the game that lets you throw a ball 100 yds when your QB jumps to the side and pump fakes before throwing. Is this a problem? Depends on how much you care. To someone who is primarily a baseball fan (sorry for the American slant) and could care less about football, probably not. They're just playing the game to have fun. To someone whose idea of fun is to stay within the realm of possibility for that environment, it is a problem. That's kind of what we have here.

Note that you can want things to 'jive' with SW movies without being a closed minded fanboy. The appropriate term I think that is escaping us all is "continuity". You can have continuity without incorporating every small detail of an environment, in this case the world of Star Wars. But elements like bunny-hopping totally break that continuity.

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quote:
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Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.
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Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.



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Actually, that question isn't so nonsensical. Please enlighten us as to why a game set in a particular setting doesn't have to adhere to that setting at all? Does a football game not have to take place on a football field? If a basketball video game comes out, and it takes place on a baseball field (or cricket field for the European crowd), I guess other people can't complain as long as you find it fun, heh?

TDS

My favourite goofy pro bunny argument above is the 'If they bunny hop away from then bunny after them' line. This one amuses me immensely. Kind of like the best way to combat an aimbot user is to get an aimbot. Duh duh duh.

Now I've played pretty much every FPS game there is. And I think we all want JK2 to be different. ---Quoting "That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe".---- It's pretty clear you disdain those people that are jedi-wannabe's so don't be surprised when they don't exactly want to bend over backwards in bringing these questionable "skills" (looks at the bind to do it and thinks "skill"???) into a game I think is fair to say was designed for them.

I really don't want to see what happened to games that allowed this to happen to JK2. It looks like it has a bright future with the next patch as many of my complaints are seeming to be corrected.

PS. Jiro Kage I don't know where you got the idea that bunny hopping is only bunny hopping if started with a rocket powered speed up. It's always just been the another term for strafe jumping. And a usefull one too as it's clearer to describe what it does than how to do it.