I'm sorry. Which part confuses you?

*all the sudden there was a sudden flash*

You called Mon Capitain. If you are wondering about my answer is because you can't misplace a living thing in to a different area with different climate so imediatly. It's like putting your gold fish in 50 degree water after haveing it for awile in 65 degree water. Now wasn't that obviose? I guess it is to comlicated for you little mortals.

------------------
I am the supreme.

Yes,the tree makes a noise. Even though we don't hear it we know it made a noise because we know from our past experiences that when a tree falls it makes a noise. But I have a forest in the back of my house, and if I never see the fallen tree I will never even know the tree existed at one point unless I can recall every single tree in that forest and I check on them everyday.

Also here is a new koan...

Can a simulated character that somehow gains consiousness live outside of the simulation?

I would say yes, because to quote someone or another "I think, therefore I am."

(I got the idea from a Star Trek, the next generation show.) So I guess I just copied off of something to get the koan, but it's still a good one. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

I am just testing your infantile species. My confusion is just a front...

yes, about the simulated thingy. I am that right now.

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I've never done a stupid thing in my entire life, with the exception of all that stuff I did

You got that question from the episode *Elementary Dear Data*, am I not wrong. Did you see the sequel to that one that came later in the series called *Ship in a Bottle*? Good old Moriarty is wreaking havok in both.

Q: ah, but you don't give us mortals enough credit! One of the amazing things about our kind is that despite the limitations of our physical construction, we have the ability to transcend those limitations. Example:

There was study done concerning the energy effectiveness of different animals and their own modes of locomotion. On the basis of distance traveled for calories burned, the natural scale of effectiveness culminates with the buzzard, whose wide wings allow him a maximum of travel for a minimum of effort...mankind, who walks, is quite far down the list. The scientist conducting the study had a flash of insight--he decided to test the energy effectiveness of a human on a bicycle. On a bicycle, still using his own energy, but adapting its use with a contraption of his own design, the human far outperformed even the buzzard.

As for thinking, I will agree that most people do not think 'outside the box.' Most people have boundaries drawn into their worldview--like Luke, unable to levitate his X-wing because it was 'too big.' However...if we can learn to push those boundaries out further, we have the ability to expand our own consciousness and think in areas completely new to our kind.

And that's what's got you scared...isn't it, Q? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

<font size=1>I must reflect on the holographic consciousness question before answering. More later...</font>

Well, it looks like Chillin will be chillin' with the first lady. Congrats, and don't worry about the Secret Service--they see this sort of thing all the time. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

The tree would make a noise. Duh. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) A lot of folk would argue that it is impossible to prove that the tree made a noise, because that noise was not perceived by a human being. I say that this reflects a worldview which is based entirely on what one can perceive...and such a mind is, unfortunately, thinking within boxes.

HO! *Smack!*

The tree fell, and we can say with reasonable certainty that this action is always accompanied by a great deal of vibration. If there was air in that forest--and I think this likely--then those vibrations took the form of a great deal of noise. One could argue that the vibrations were not true noise, having no eardrums to fall upon...at which point I would accuse the debater of being a secret Vulcan and have him studied by medical science. We could learn much from dissecting a Vulcan, yes... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

What we see, and hear, and know of is not all that there is. It is just the beginning.

I'm still working on your hologram koan, Chillin. A good one, that.

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

And where is Q when we need his input on this after all it did come of the series that he ORIGINATED from. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Okay. Here is my take on the 'holodeck koan.' http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

If a holodeck creation gained true consciousness the way Moriarty (and the Doctor from Voyager) did in Star Trek, it would be restricted to a holographic environment. Just as we cannot exist at the center of the sun, a holographic being cannot exist in an environment harmful to its own nature. In the real world, the lack of a hologrid would be fatal to any being which neeeded one to exist! Now...that hologram would be a conscious being, with a soul and rights and existance just like you or me. But would it be able to spontaneously change the nature of its being and simply exist without a hologrid? No, it couldn't do so any more than I can grow gills and live in the river.

There is a possibility, however, opened up by the data-based nature of its consciousness; that consciousness could be downloaded, just like any other computer program, into another computer's memory. The Doctor on Voyager does this with his mobile emitter, which carries around a memory bank and hologrid just for his use. A holographic consciousness could also be loaded into a robot or android...which would essentially give it the solid body it's been lacking all along.

Another possibility, and a creepier one, that occurs to me is that if the technology to integrate biological and technological nervous systems is ever developed, a data-based consciousness could be downloaded into a living body. Ooooh, now there's a comforting thought... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Tired Imladil tonight. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/frown.gif) It's, oh say, The Master's turn to come up with a koan. Well?

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Okay here is a quick one. Is it possible to never have a beginning but still exist?

Now explain.... Well?

IMLADIL, I see you remembered my comment about sound being the translation of sound waves by the brain...but you Weren't s'possed ta tell anybody I'm a Vulcan. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

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VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

Vul-can...? Dissect, yes! Hooray for science!

The Master, you have just asked a very intriguing question! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) My first reaction is a 'no,' with a 'what if?' on the end. I must think on this matter more...

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

So... start the explaining.... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I haven't posted here for a while (2 days), but thats long for me. Well I will have to get back to ya on a few of these. Actually I might have to get back to you guys on Monday, I'm going up to Chicago to see my grandma, she is sick and might not even make it through the rest of the year. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/frown.gif)

My family and I wish you a good trip and please take a prayer from us to your grandmother.

10-4 on that, from the rest of the squadron... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Chillin, I've found that offering comfort on this matter invariably doesn't come out the right way. You have, of course, my prayers...and the comforting words must simply go unsaid. I'm sure that you understand them anyway. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Existance without beginning. After much thought, I have come up with two possible answers...neither of which can be proven over the other with science. It depends on whether the universe is finite (began with the Big Bang and will expand until entropy has claimed it) or repeating (has enough mass that it collapses back in on itself and begins again--in an endlessly repeating cycle.) Whether it's A or B depends on how much matter there is in the universe...and right now, the evidence seems to suggest that there is less matter, although none of our models take into account the existance of heaven or hell (which, if real, must exist somewhere...and more dimensions imply more possible matter.)

Possibility A, the finite universe. In this case, the existance of a thing without beginning is impossible. At the beginning of the entire universe, the creative act took place with the bringing of being from nothingness...and nothing is just that, no thing. If you chase the logic far enough, you will find that in order for existance to come into being, there first had to be a state of nothingness--no observer or object, no nuttin'. If our hypothetical thing had been present when the universe was created, then its beginning occured with the universe's...otherwise, it wouldn't have had a universe in which to exist. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Possibility B, the repeating universe. In this case, everything that is has been in existance forever, without a definitive beginning. It coalesces with the rest of the universe down to one point in the 'Big Crunch,' then expands outward again with the Big Bang. During the lifetime of the universe, nothing is either created or destroyed...it merely changes form. Matter becomes energy, then changes back in nuclear reaction...that matter changes form over the millenia, being changed into denser and denser elements by generations of stellar fusion. When the universe comes to the end of its life, all of our matter/energy begins the cycle over again.

So...which is it? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) Go measure all of the matter in the entire universe, heaven and hell included, then come back to me with the figures. Then maybe we can settle this koan definitively.

Where did Q get to, anyway...? We'll need him for the measurement process.

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

I think he is scared of us and ran away back to his precious Continuum. And Chillin, prayers from The Master to. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Yes, saddening, that. I was looking forward to having an actual ominscient being in the conversation... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Okay, I have a new koan for y'all to chew on: "What is the river running from?"

And a haiku, too. I like 'em, anyway. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) 'Softly come the bombs, breaking concrete...so the grass can grow again.'

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

The river (which ever one that maybe) starts from a little stream which eventually more streams join it and then the water source gets bigger and <font size=3>bigger and <font size=4>bigger and <font size=5>bigger <font size=2>until it becomes officailly a river. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif(I) could of kept going)

[This message has been edited by The Master (edited July 01, 2000).]

I see. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

So you're saying that the river is running from its own smallness?

Yep! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

actually it starts at a large underground water source(a large spring)and when it starts it is no more than a trickle and then over thousands of years of higher water levels and flowing it may create a canyon(depending on soil and water speed and this has nothing to do with the question but...)and anyway the water for some reason flows southward(every river eventully does that)and as it flows it flows into little creek bootoms and low plaves off to the side causing other rivers.Also it runs into other tributaries and keeps this up until it hits the ocean.

Any questions?

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I rule this ocean with an iron fist,an iron tail, and for that matter an iron everything-Metalseadramon

Deep inside the earth, there are very large potatos with arms and legs and the rivers are running from them

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I've never done a stupid thing in my entire life, with the exception of all that stuff I did

George, that has got to be the funniest s**t I've seen here in some time. Thank you.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Hehe, I must agree. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I try to please

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I've never done a stupid thing in my entire life, with the exception of all that stuff I did

Ah, me. *(Wiping the tears from his eyes)*

I have several different interpretations of the river koan, and I will be discussing each of them. Tonight I will be dealing with the answer "the past."

One way of looking at the movement of the river is to focus on the nature of water itself. Unlike solid matter, liquid matter behaves quite differently; it will always have movement, so long as it is unevenly distributed and has the space to move into. Even when still, the slightest variation in temperature is enough to cause internal conductive movement. It can be argued that it simply is in water's nature to move.

Anyone about to make an argument based on ice, forget it. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) Ice is water's solid form, and no longer obeys liquid dynamics.

So...if water is always moving (or at least always willing to move), then what is it running from? Well, since water is basically fearless, it probably isn't running from hell-potatoes (although I certainly would!), but it is 'running' in a very fundamental sense that is tied directly to its flowing nature--it is running the course of time. If one could freeze time, water would become non-moving, and if one could reverse time, a river would also flow backward. Since our river can be seen to run 'with' time, then it is following it; and time, by definition, is always moving from the past.

So our river is running from the past. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) Something about tax fraud and an underage secretary...

Tomorrow I'll talk about my next answer, "Santa Claus." http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Oooooooooooooo........ Santa Claus!

Okay, maybe not actually Santa Claus, per se, but rather the north pole. To be even more precise, both poles.

As the good commander earlier pointed out, rivers in the northern hemisphere tend to run toward the south. The same occurs in the southern hemisphere, only reversed; in general, rivers tend to flow toward the equator. Why is this? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/confused.gif)

Well...try this. Dip a basketball in water, then twirl it on your finger like a globetrotter. What happens? The water collects around the equator of the ball and sprays out in a fan. Probably got your face wet, too. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) This is centrifugal force in action, and it's also the force responsible for the Earth being shaped in such a way that rivers flow the way they do.

I have more to say on the river koan, but I sense that the rest of you are probably done with it. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) So: "Do penguins like the water?"

Meanwhile, I'll talk about my third answer to the river koan, "Radiation," tonight. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

No! Penguins HATE the water! Take a penguin near the water, and it will cry out in pain!

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)
=) (http://www.fungrams.com/haha.html)
Don't click on Mr. Smiley!

depends if you could get the penguine to talk, which is unlikely.

I think penguines DESPISE water, but use it for a tool, a survival thing.

Soldier #1: All right, penguin...out with it!

Penguin: *Waaak! Waaak!*

Soldier #2: I think he wants some water.

Penguin: *Waa-aaak!*

Soldier #1: Oh, you want this glass of ice water, do you?

Soldier #2: He seems scared of it.

Penguin: *Waaak! Waaak! Waaak!*

Soldier #1: Of course he's scared, idiot...of us! He wants the water, trust me. Talk, penguin!

Officer: Nevermind. This is getting nowhere.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Good peice of humor Imladil! I appreciate, especailly since it goes along with what we are argueing about. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

So...why is the river running from radiation of all things? Well, I would. Radiation is scary.

Seriously? This answer is based on looking at the driving force behind the water's motion. Why doesn't the water flow to the ocean and just stay there? Because that water is evaporated, forms clouds, which flow back over the land to cause rain. Because of the evaporation process, the water is constantly being funneled back up into the sky, so it can renew the flow process we all see in the running river.

The evaporation is being caused by the sun, whose electromagnetic radiation (or sunshine if you will) raise the temperature of the ocean's surface. The radiation impacting the water molecules and raising their temperature to the point where they change form and become gaseous is the whole energizing point in the cycle; every other action the water takes is a reaction to that initial change in nature. Therefore, the river is running from the radiation. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

So, to sum up, in my opinion the river is running from the past, the Earth's pole and the sun's radiation consecutively. No wonder the river seems to be in a hurry...

Curious fact: the Rogue River is about five miles from my house. It is aptly named, and is in much of a hurry. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

My take on the penguin koan? They seem to. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

they seem to what?

Penguins...seem to...like the water. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/rolleyes.gif) Of course, it's possible that they're just cheerful animals to begin with.

Okay, nevermind the penguin koan. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) I have a new one, an all-time Q-stumper that I think I got from an episode of Dexter's Laboratory (I'm not sure of the precise wording used). Best answer gets tickets on the next spaceshuttle flight.

"What is the purpose of meaning?"

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Here goes-
The purpose of meaning is to define. A meaning shows you what the object/word you have the meaning of actually IS. A meaning tells you how to use the object. It tells you WHAT the object is. A meaning is to put limits of what an object may be used for (AKA no shooting Penguins with an A-Wing).

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)
=) (http://www.fungrams.com/haha.html)
Don't click on Mr. Smiley!

Do noy fear Chillin is here!! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) It's good to be back!

And it's good to have you back! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Yippee skippy flippy hippy! Welcome back, hu-man. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

The purpose of meaning is to be mean! (get it? meaning, mean..... oh forget you. at least I'm ORIGINAL) http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

Hear that! The commander is origianal! Ya!!!!!!! Finally some one in here is origainal. Wait a moment, I am getting worked up over nothin'.

IMLADIL...in your discourse between the soldiers and the penguin, I suggest you change the two soldiers and the officer. Make it two officers and the penguin with the enlisted person telling them "nevermind". Ya see in the real world officers would expect the penguin to speak...the enlistee would KNOW better. Officers in general don't usually know which end of a penguin talks and which end poops. True confessions. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

Actually, the penguin would be the better qualified of all of them for officer school. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Okay, I will now attack the purpose of meaning. *(Imladil draws a samurai sword, yells 'BANZAI!' and runs into the jungle.)* http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Meaning is the sentient consciousness' way of connecting itself to the universe around it. When the mind in question perceives a object, that mind does not think exactly how big it is, what color, what it is made of, etc.; what does register upon the mind is that object's meaning.

This is a key insight to understanding the nature of consciousness. We don't see a thing as it really is and then take that information directly into our thoughts. We see the thing, and the mind gives meaning to the image, interpreting what, why and how it is before passing it on to our train of thought. When one looks at a pencil, for example, one thinks 'yellow,' maybe a brief memory of using them in school, how it feels to draw with the soft graphite tip, maybe even how the wood tastes if one nibbles on it when lost in thought...one doesn't simply take in the length of wood and rubber exactly as it is.

Say you stumble, quite by accident, upon a space alien in your kitchen. For a split-second, when you first see the alien, you do not react...you wait until the mind has supplied the proper meaning, in this case 'Earth is being invaded,' and then you panic.

Here is a simple meditational exercise y'all can try at home, which deals with this very matter. You take an object, preferably one with which you have no personal connection, and set it on the table before you. As you are looking at it, notice the thoughts flowing through your mind. Close down any thoughts about the object as you continue to gaze upon it. When you are seeing the object but generating no thoughts about it, you may experience what some easterners call 'being one' with the object.

If one develops the ability to perceive without assigning meaning, one can experience the universe on a direct, personal level. Suddenly, all those little details one passes by can be seen as they truly are...and one can get to the truth of a thing's nature much more quickly without having to cut through one's own preconceptions first. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

So am I saying we should render all things meaningless so we could understand them better? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) You bet.

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

HiddenTalon, you can pick up your tickets at the shuttle gantry. Fare is roundtrip, and you do understand there are no accommodations...

New koan: "How does the wind find its way?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/confused.gif)

I read a neat story that I'd like to share with you about a taoist master and a shaman in ancient China. The taoists were an order in China who contributed much philosophy to Buddhism, and Zen in particular.

The taoist master had a pupil, who learned of a skilled shaman in the village. Impressed by the shaman's ability to read people spiritually, the pupil decided to follow the shaman instead...and told his master so.

'Bring the shaman to me. I wish to meet him,' said the master.

The pupil brought the shaman to meet the master. After a brief talk, the shaman whispered to the pupil that the master was dying, and had only days to live. When the shaman had left, the pupil cried, 'O master, I fear that I must tell you now the most horrible news!'

The master smiled. 'I am not dying. I had shut down all of my power, and he saw my weakness. Bring him again tomorrow.'

The next day, the pupil brought the shaman, who when he saw the master next exclaimed that he had been miraculously healed, and should be glad that his visit the day before had done so. When the shaman had left, the master told his now puzzled student, 'This time I brought all of my powers to their fullness. I wish to see this man again.'

The next time the shaman came to visit, he found the master calm but intent, very evenly tempered. He could find nothing to proclaim. After he'd left, the pupil said, 'He does not know what to make of you.'

'This time I blended forces within myself to a state of balance,' said the master. 'He must have seen the source of my power.' Sadly shaking his head, he said, 'I must see this man again, for I have nine such states to show him, and he has seen but three.'

The shaman did not visit the master again. The next time they met was by accident, as the master and his pupil were walking in the village. They met and exchanged greetings...and the shaman ran away, screaming in terror.

'What frightened him so?' wondered the pupil.

'This time,' smiled the master, 'I became emptiness, and he was talking to the wind and the sky. Let this be a lesson on the power of the shaman versus the power of the tao.'

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Nice http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

My idea of how the wind finds its way:Its doesn't!!!!!!!!!It justs gets pushed everywhere(except through water and through solid objects)and thats how it gets around.WAIT A SECOND!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm wrong the wind is generated by the turning of the earth.I think??????

Somebody help me out!!!!

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I rule this ocean with an iron fist,an iron tail, and for that matter an iron everything-Metalseadramon

The wind goes to wherever humans are booming out too fast, and it wreaks it's havoc and knocks over a few buildings and posibly takes a few lives.

Wing-the anti-overpopulation