Howdy, folx! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Today's koan: "How can Imladil surf the web if his roommate doesn't pay his ISP bill?"

Answer: I should be back wednesday or so. (Today I'm using my mom's computer while I make curried chicken.)

About the ion cannon bit. I've been playing a lot of XvT lately, and I just installed the additional Balance of Power campaigns which have included a B-wing fighter. Now, I still like the A-wing...but I did have to try out the new ship. It has an ion cannon that disables nicely.

To test fly the B-wing, I selected the custom dogfight scenario, then picked a fight with TIE fighters. Just for kicks, I disabled all of the TIEs, then went back around and blew them up at my leisure.

I just hope the Imperial pilots had a sense of humor. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)


------------------
"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

What's the big deal about icon cannons all of a sudden? Why waste time throwing all those cute little pictures at spacecraft? ....Icon cannons indeed... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

Originally posted by Imladil:
In Zen Buddhist tradition, there is a kind of riddle known as a koan. Unlike our western riddles, which have a humorous climax or a point of some kind, the zen koan is an open-ended riddle with no right or wrong answer. The riddle should be paradoxical in nature, ideally pointing in some way to the inifinite. The zen student would meditate long on a koan, and by doing so he would (hopefully) discover his true nature and become enlightened. A good zen koan can keep one wondering for days, until you finally come up with your own answer.

Creating a zen koan can be interesting and fun! I invite everyone to contribute (they don't have to be strict, by the letter zen koans). If they have to do with Star Wars, great...but since the Jedi are a lot like the Samurai, this is fairly close to being on topic anyway. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

I'll start.

"What is the color of nothing?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif?)



How far is up?

I'll tell you how far up is! As far as you can go up!

Is water soluble?

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

I think so.

Hmm. Good ones, there. Water is definitely soluble in water...but not in oil. I find that koan to be an exploration of how some things blend and others don't, which actually is profound when you apply it against the greater backdrop of things.

"How far is up?" http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) I'm still working on that one...

I have a serious koan and a silly one today. The serious one is: "What is the difference between nothingness and infinity?" The silly one is about lollipops.

Q: "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsieroll pop?"

A: "Why didn't I get candy?"

------------------
"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

I took the candy.

Just a quick guess IMLADIL...Nothingness is the absence of anything, whereas:Infinity is having so much of anything there is no end to it. ? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

'How far is up?' Well, go find it, and tell me when you get there. Here's one for ya--the center of the Earth is always straight down, no matter where you are. What's up wit' dat? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Hmm. The nothingness and infinity koan was a bit too vague, I think. I'll come up with a better way of attacking the notion, but it may take awhile. Instead, let's focus on just infinity. What is it? Well, an infinite number is a number without end...and as strange as it may seem, such values can and do exist in our universe. Allow me to demonstrate.

*(Imladil produces a yardstick and a machete, lays them on the table...then grins broadly.)*

There are an infinite number of points along this yardstick. A point, for definition's sake, is a location only...it has no width, no height, etc. I can prove it by showing how you can divide the yardstick in half an infinite number of times without destroying it.

*WHACK!*

Okay, now we have a foot and a half...exactly half of the three feet we began with. Nevermind the table--it isn't real. I'll divide it in half again.

*WHACK*

Three-quarters of a foot. *WHACK!* Three eighths. I could do this again and again, just to prove the point, but you can already see that no matter how small the piece of yardstick becomes, you can divide it in half...an infinite number of times. And no--we aren't focusing on how small an atom is here, because I'm actually discussing points in the geometrical sense rather than the physical yardstick itself. Assuming that we can always scale ourselves down to divide that length in half, this becomes an example of what is called infinite regression.

So...if there is infinity implied in the existance of this mere yardstick, I wonder just how big forever really is. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

The nothingness is altogether different (or is it? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)--bear) in mind that true nothingness cannot be conceived of because any observer present to witness it would be something. Don't worry about comparing these two concepts...I'll come up with a koan to do just that later. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I'll close with a new zen-type signature:

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality and discovered instead the real nature of truth."
--Thrustweasel of Earth

[This message has been edited by Imladil (edited June 01, 2000).]

Nicly explained Imladil!

You just liked the machete part.

I know!

Here's a koan:
"How much wood would a Wood Chuck chuck if a Wood Chuck could chuck wood." http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"Life is fair." It has now been written.

probably a lot... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

More than you could.

Well, in thinking on my nothingess and infinity koan, it occured to me that it's already been done...and it's a philosophical argument I'd never really delved into enough to understand:

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Rather than being an illustration of useless debate, as this phrase is sometimes used, it gets to the ideas I'm focusing on. I've already discussed infinity (yes, and machetes), so next I'll go into the concept of nothingess.

When you close your eyes and try to envision nothingness...what you conceive is not true nothingess at all, but emptiness. After all--you're there, witnessing the emptiness, so it is not truly nothing at all. As long as there is a perceiving witness or relative object of some kind, there is...there is 'existance,' which is more than nothing. In fact, even if you conceive of the nothingness and call it such--by doing so, you have made it something. Nothingess...cannot exist in our universe.

Yet all that is came out from nothingess with the creation of the universe. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) Before there was 'existance,' there had to be a beginning point of nonexistance. In essence, if you meditate long and deeply enough on this matter, you may come to find that if the seeds of all existance (in which there is implied infinity) come from nothingess, then nothingess can itself be seen as a greater concept than even infinity.

Great. So everything is nothing...and in nothing is everything. Just wonderful, Imladil. What the heck are we supposed to do with that?

Simple: tell me how many angels there are on that pinhead. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

I believe that the Angle koan is a matter of ones own perspective. For instance in your own minds eye do you see angles as big as normal people or do you see them as tiny little things that sit on your shoulder and argue with the demon on your other shoulder?
Or you might see them as beings that can change their shape and form, they decide on how they look to you and what form they come in whether an invisible specter, or in the form of a person.

I belive they are "shape shifters" so I'd say all the angles in heaven could stand on the pinhead if they wanted.

About the nothingness and infinity koan...well I think I'll stay out of that one.

------------------
"Life is fair." It has now been written.

That's nice. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Isn't it? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Chillin: staying away from infinity/nothingness is probably a good idea for you, given what happened with the mirror. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Interesting discussion there on the nature of angels. Curiously enough, that was one part of the koan I let go of, just taking as a given that an angel would need only one dimensional point in order to exist. Of course, an angel is much more than a single point in space...being self aware (aware of its own existance) means that it exists in at least three dimensions.

Hmm. That reasoning was a bit tenuous. Allow me to explain: any being that is aware of itself manifests its existance by recognizing itself. Self recognition implies that there are at least two--the perceiver and the perceived--and it then follows that there must be a third element as a division between them (as space, no matter how small, must cross something.)* This complexity of nature precludes existance as a single point in space.

So, our angels must have some space in which to exist after all. Now the argument becomes: can they scale themselves down infinitely in order to fit more of them on the pinhead, and is there a limit?

Meanwhile, I have a new koan for this evening (actually, it's 3:30 am here). "Why does it not rain?" Enjoy. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

<font size=1>*This existance-requiring-three bit is an example of trinity, a metaphysical concept which seems to be reflected in most of our world's religions, BTW.</font>

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Does it have any thing to do with me?

'Cuse your in a desert during the summer season.

------------------
Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

Ah, but even in the hottest, driest desert on our world, there is some water in the air, precipitating into miscroscopic droplets that fall when the air cools at night. Can this be considered rain?

What about at the bottom of the ocean? Can it be said to be raining all the time? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

In outer space, there is a certain amount of frozen water contained in small comets and icy asteroids. As these objects enter our gravity well and plummet to Earth, can they be considered rain?

On the other hand...

When we speak of rain, we usually mean the atmospheric phenomenon where water vapor precipitates around dust particles and then falls to Earth as raindrops. From our perspective, 'it is raining' is a clear judgement call to make--simply hold out your hand and see if it gets wet! When viewed in this way, one can answer the koan easily: "Because it can't rain all the time."

As usual, the koan had absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. It was an illustration of how resolving one's point of view is an important first step to resolving a question. In real life, well meaning people can discuss a matter, and because they have failed to take the other's point of view into account, they may wind up completely misunderstanding each other.

Unless you get something else out of it. This is zen, after all... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Oh, yeah...a new koan. A silly one, this time: "How did the chicken become the road?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

That's an easy one. It fell into the asphalt machine..... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

So basically the rain koan was a trick question?

Yup. Actually, all zen riddles are trick questions of one kind or another. The point to a trick question is not the question itself but a direct pointing at the process of analysis...and this is entirely what zen is about.

HO! *Smack!*

Another zen tradition: the master would, at the appropriate time, shout or smack the student with a stick. This was another approach, ment to startle the student into suddenly realizing the true nature of reality by removing him from his own train of thought.

Personally, I think the zen masters were a little crazy... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Smack? With a Stick? Ain't no Zen Brother...that's my ex-WIFE!!! She was so mean Leona Helmsley used to come over for lessons!!!

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

Ah, yes. Pink Dragon Lady...very powerful samurai. We still honor her in a number of shrines. She is always depicted with the frying pan and rolling pin, her weapons of choice.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Evil Spock here. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) I think another interesting bit of Japanese culture that we can explore here and have fun with would be the practice of seppuku.

Did I say seppuku? I meant haiku, a form of poetry. The idea is to express a pure or tranquil moment in precisely sixteen syllables. For example:

'Gently I put the sun out; nice birds come no longer toward me.'

Or:

'Once I liked this bar. It is too bad these bullets aren't hollow-point.'

Hah? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) Next?

------------------
"Beware the bearded one."

....But Zens are Zens.....

Hows this?

"The elite, they are sleek, swift, and deadly. They are the X-Wing fighters."

Pretty good huh?

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

'Crash goes the X-wing. It flies straight into the mountain's side at dawn.' http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

More zen riddles for The Master? Okay, how about this one: "How does one go north from the North Pole?"

Meanwhile, I have a haiku that I know Shootist will like. 'Help me please from the ladies' shower; this black eye does not see well.' http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

[This message has been edited by Imladil (edited June 08, 2000).]

I know this one! You go UP the pole at the north pole. There for you go north! Ha ha! I am brilliant!

MASTER, if you went up the pole at the North Pole you would actually be going up in altitude, completely different from going North.

Well if there was a center to this galaxy, and it was considered North then you could go north by going into space and flying towards it. On this planet you would not be able to go any farther North because you are at North. From the North Pole then inly direction you can go is South, assuming you do not skip dimensions or go into space.

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

DON'T ARGUE WITH ME!

So, is north an absolute (as Chillin seems to be saying), or is north relative? Is north merely 'not south,' or do we come to places where there simply is no more north?

I, of course, would find more north by shrinking my perspective; after all, when you go down in size to an inch or so, suddenly the pole is over that way again! Unless you were balanced so perfectly on the pole that it coincided with your bodily meridian. Then it becomes a question of whether perfection truly exists in this universe, because once we start regressing the scale on such a balance, the slightest flaw would upset it completely.

HO! *Smack!*

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

It occurs to me that the 'shout-and-stick' tradition (known as katsui) could be vastly misinterpreted if overheard in a rough neighborhood.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

G/p, Imladil. Kids, don't try to teach bhuddist Zen to children in the ghetto, or other rough neighborhoods. you WILL get shot. a public service announcement.

------------------
Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

IMLADIL, how considerate to think of my lobido. However..."Help me please back into the ladies' shower, I have one more good eye!"

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

Alright guys here's a new koan:

"How far is far?"

Another question: (not a koan)
How do you make your words bold?

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

I make my words bold with whiskey and youthful arrogance. Plus I wear a sword. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) Seriously...put a b in in front of what you want boldfaced, and behind it the same thing only backslashed (like this: /b, inside the brackets.) If you're still confused, click on the edit button for this post and you can see how it's done.

'Shoo--away with temple monkeys! I have no matches to give them.' (Today's haiku.)

Intriguing koan, [b]Chillin. Far is a relative matter. Since I was looking for my remote control today, while the teevee was just ten feet away (but still 'too far' to just change the channel manually,) I'd have to say that for me, far is just under ten feet. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) A serious look at it would be to relate myself to what I understand of the size of the universe...this would be a conceptual exploration, so it would have to be visualized in a meditational context. I get as far as understanding how big I am compared to the world before I lose my sense of perspective, but you can (in theory, anyway) conceive of that scale when applied to the solar system, galaxy, galactic cluster, etc. This is harder than it sounds: you have to relate your scale to your house, then your city...maybe your county or province, whichever, truly understanding how big you are in comparison...taking that understanding into larger and larger perspectives. It is awesome, though, when you get a glimpse of understanding just how big things really are.

Or how far. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

It is kind of like the question "How far is up" It is as far as you want it to be. I did a little research. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

What IMLADIL is saying about comparing your self to the Universe and such, don't do it. I thought about it, it makes you fell so insignificant and depressed.

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

A word of advice... don't actually start comparing yourself to the Universe, I did, it makes you feel insignificant and depressed.

Thank youImladil!

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Depressed? Oh, no, my friend...that means you haven't followed that line of reasoning through all the way. You see, one of the greatest wonders about the nature of our existance is that despite how insignificant one individual is in comparison to all the rest of the universe, that individual is A: unique, B: aware of its own existance, and C: has qualities that transcend the material plane. What do I mean by that last part? Essentially that everything else in the universe (non-living) can be completely known if analyzed...if you bust a rock and thoroughly analyze the rubble, you can know everything there is to know about that rock--how much of what element, mass, etc. No more mystery (assuming you have perfect science.)

But a living being is different. The nature of consciousness is such that it is constantly generating new ideas, putting new observations together to form new theories. If you know everything there is to know about that being one moment, then by the next it has created new elements to its psyche. And, there are times when our minds clearly think way, way outside the box (which is entirely what zen is about) that give us reason to recognize that we are truly special...small, but hardly insignificant! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

So, taking our own special nature into consideration, let us look again at us compared to that vast universe. There is a part of ourselves (the ego) that wants to believe that we are great...this is because sometimes that big universe can seem scary, and it tries to protect itself by 'puffing itself up' like some puffer fish making a threat display. The universe, of course, is ambivalent to such 'ego-puffing,' but it does make us feel better about ourselves...it is a useful part of our psyche in this sense, but it can lead to distortion in our worldview if it gets out of control! I'm sure we've all met people of this category (I tend to be one. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) When we take the time to compare our egos to reality, we can get ourselves closer to the truth. The trick is to face that subconscious fear of being small by remembering what it is about oneself that is special. Then we can honestly rejoice about how wonderfully complex the universe is and how important our place in it is. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

So, Chillin, I hope you can use this to fix the depression! If not, I'll have to act silly and 'sneak in the back door' so to speak...

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Imladil, are you a phychiatrist? If not you sure do think about alot of stuff. I just tend to not really worry about much and don't really look into the deeper jist of things, if I did I would probably be able to realize stuff like that and be a lot smarter for it. I will try to change.

I not sure would that qualify as an epiphany?


------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Sorry for missin'out fer a while...long hours saving capitalism this week...tired.

You can actually go to the North Pole and still go North. There are two North Poles. Really! There is the geographic NP and then there's the magnetic NP, one has to do with maps, the other has to do with the mass of the Earth and where the magnetic poles around the earth converge in the northern hemisphere. That's the one your compass points to. So, if you're standing at one NP, simply rephrase your goal. You'll be a few miles away from the other pole. When you get THERE. change your quest again and go back to the first pole. Theoretically you could go from ONE North Pole, change your mind and go to the OTHER pole forever...or 'til you froze yer tuckus off. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

No, Chillin, I'm afraid that I'm just a cook. You want fries with that? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Epiphany: regardless of that ridiculous commercial with Avery Brooks (which gets the concept of epiphany totally wrong), an epiphany is a profound realization that goes beyond words. When one receives an epiphany, one suddenly understands a complex situation or relationship on a level that goes beyond our own reasoning...this is due largely in part to the realization coming from God Himself. A good example would be an astronaut (I forget which one, but this did happen) seeing the world from space for the first time...and just from that, coming to a profound understanding about his own place in all of it. In the far east, this process of learning 'from God' as it were is called enlightenment (not to be confused with illumination, where you 'see the light') and is the actual intended result of the practice of zen. Zen is basically intended to prepare the mind for receiving enlightenment...or epiphany, as it were.

But, learning directly from God isn't something people just decide to do! Most aspirants in the east study their arts and meditate all their lives without receiving the truth, while there are some rare folk who have and understand the all of it from day one (I call this 'the path of Bubba.') There are a number of factors involved in preparing the mind, body and soul for enlightenment, and the requirements vary from person to person. Most religions deal with these requirements directly, with Buddhism taking the most straightforward approach (although I, personally, am Christian.)

My advice for any who wish to pursue such a path would be to take up a religion and a system of meditation both. I believe you mentioned a church group, Chillin, so it would seem that you have that part covered. While I personally enjoy zen and its indirect approach to realization, I must give Kabbalah the vote for being more useful to the earnest westerner who wishes to simply learn the truth. There are a number of good introductory books on the subject, with my pick being The Elements of the Qabalah by Will Parfitt.

I give Shootist extra points for the north pole observation. It would seem that north is relative and not absolute. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

It was busy at work and my brain is too fried to do a good koan for tonight. I'll do a nice haiku instead:

'Strange noises from my refrigerator...I think it wants me dead.'

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)



------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth