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ObamaCare congresswoman sleeps with fishes; news at 11

Page: 3 of 4
 Jaevyn
01-13-2011, 6:55 PM
#101
Sarah Palin started off the day by comparing being called out on her rhetoric to the historical plight of European Jews.

Yes, compare rhetoric to events of the holocaust. I'm sure that not only European Jews will be offended by her latest remarks.
 Darth Avlectus
01-13-2011, 7:45 PM
#102
Obamacare is designed to euthanise native white American descendants of the Jaredites
:rofl:

and Obama is Satan's boyfriend. :mad:
Why you Westborough Baptist! :fist:
 Tommycat
01-14-2011, 8:05 PM
#103
Okay, this is ridiculous. I mean honestly people are blaming literally everything Republican. Now, they are blaming SB1070 for the shooting... What the... REALLY? Did I miss something and Laughner was opposed to SB1070, and Giffords was FOR it? Or was it the other way around.

Was it because of his "I hope that you are literate" comments? Because he called his white friends illiterate, which indicates that those comments had little to do with citizenship.

Sheesh. Instead of doing as Obama said and coming together, people are doing EXACTLY what he asked us NOT to do. Using this tragedy to further separate ourselves. The NPR contributor that used it as an opportunity to push her "brown people" agenda. Heck she said that she sighed in relief that it was a "gringo" instead of a Latino last name. Ya know what, I wasn't looking for it to be ANY race.

Besides, that debate(which has NOTHING to do with this crime) was not about Latinos, but about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! I know it's a hard concept for her to grasp, but we're FOR legal immigrants. Just, ya know, not a fan of people breaking laws...

So lets run down the list, so far it's been:
The Tea Party
Talk Radio(Rush Limbaugh specifically)
Sarah Palin
And now SB1070?

Sheesh!
 Jae Onasi
01-14-2011, 9:58 PM
#104
The Republicans and Tea-Partiers are not the only ones who use target maps and "target" rhetoric.

Giffords was on Daily Kos' "hit list" (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/1204/74882/511/541568) in 2008 for not being liberal enough.

The Democratic Leadership Council (http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171) had bullseye targets pasted all over the US map in 2004:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc17/JaeOnasi/Demtargetmap.gif)

Charles Krauthammer wrote a most insightful article that appeared in the Washington Post today. Since he is a board certified psychiatrist who received his MD from Harvard Medical School, in addition to being a Pulitzer-prize-winning writer, I take his opinion on Loughner's condition seriously, with the caveat that one can't truly diagnose long-distance. That being said, anyone who's taken any kind of abnormal psychology course will recognize that Loughner very likely is a paranoid schizophrenic.

Here is the text of Krauthammer's op-ed column:

By Charles Krauthammer
Wednesday, January 12, 2011

The charge: The Tucson massacre is a consequence of the "climate of hate" created by Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, Glenn Beck, Obamacare opponents and sundry other liberal betes noires.

The verdict: Rarely in American political discourse has there been a charge so reckless, so scurrilous and so unsupported by evidence.

As killers go, Jared Loughner is not reticent. Yet among all his writings, postings, videos and other ravings - and in all the testimony from all the people who knew him - there is not a single reference to any of these supposed accessories to murder.

Not only is there no evidence that Loughner was impelled to violence by any of those upon whom Paul Krugman, Keith Olbermann, the New York Times, the Tucson sheriff and other rabid partisans are fixated. There is no evidence that he was responding to anything, political or otherwise, outside of his own head.

A climate of hate? This man lived within his very own private climate. "His thoughts were unrelated to anything in our world," said the teacher of Loughner's philosophy class at Pima Community College. "He was very disconnected from reality," said classmate Lydian Ali. "You know how it is when you talk to someone who's mentally ill and they're just not there?" said neighbor Jason Johnson. "It was like he was in his own world."

His ravings, said one high school classmate, were interspersed with "unnerving, long stupors of silence" during which he would "stare fixedly at his buddies," reported the Wall Street Journal. His own writings are confused, incoherent, punctuated with private numerology and inscrutable taxonomy. He warns of government brainwashing and thought control through "grammar." He was obsessed with "conscious dreaming," a fairly good synonym for hallucinations.

This is not political behavior. These are the signs of a clinical thought disorder - ideas disconnected from each other, incoherent, delusional, detached from reality.

These are all the hallmarks of a paranoid schizophrenic. And a dangerous one. A classmate found him so terrifyingly mentally disturbed that, she e-mailed friends and family, she expected to find his picture on TV after his perpetrating a mass murder. This was no idle speculation: In class "I sit by the door with my purse handy" so that she could get out fast when the shooting began.

Furthermore, the available evidence dates Loughner's fixation on Rep. Gabrielle Giffords to at least 2007, when he attended a town hall of hers and felt slighted by her response. In 2007, no one had heard of Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck was still toiling on Headline News. There was no Tea Party or health-care reform. The only climate of hate was the pervasive post-Iraq campaign of vilification of George W. Bush, nicely captured by a New Republic editor who had begun an article thus: "I hate President George W. Bush. There, I said it."

Finally, the charge that the metaphors used by Palin and others were inciting violence is ridiculous. Everyone uses warlike metaphors in describing politics. When Barack Obama said at a 2008 fundraiser in Philadelphia, "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," he was hardly inciting violence.

Why? Because fighting and warfare are the most routine of political metaphors. And for obvious reasons. Historically speaking, all democratic politics is a sublimation of the ancient route to power - military conquest. That's why the language persists. That's why we say without any self-consciousness such things as "battleground states" or "targeting" opponents. Indeed, the very word for an electoral contest - "campaign" - is an appropriation from warfare.

When profiles of Obama's first chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, noted that he once sent a dead fish to a pollster who displeased him, a characteristically subtle statement carrying more than a whiff of malice and murder, it was considered a charming example of excessive - and creative - political enthusiasm. When Senate candidate Joe Manchin dispensed with metaphor and simply fired a bullet through the cap-and-trade bill - while intoning, "I'll take dead aim at [it]" - he was hardly assailed with complaints about violations of civil discourse or invitations to murder.

Did Manchin push Loughner over the top? Did Emanuel's little Mafia imitation create a climate for political violence? The very questions are absurd - unless you're the New York Times and you substitute the name Sarah Palin.

The origins of Loughner's delusions are clear: mental illness. What are the origins of Krugman's?

(link here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011106068.html))

Loughner is, rather bluntly, bat-sh#t crazy. Blaming it on Palin, the Daily Kos, or anyone else BUT Loughner is ill-informed at best and disingenuous at worst.
 Totenkopf
01-14-2011, 9:59 PM
#105
@TC: I see the pro-2nd Amendment/NRA types being added (despite Giffords being pro-gun) and maybe even the 1st Amendment as well (which encompasses the first 3 on your list).

@Jae--I especially liked that last line in the piece.
 mimartin
01-14-2011, 10:04 PM
#106
Yea, Yea all liberals are blaming the Republicans and the poor right wing is not blaming the liberals. :rolleyes: Guess someone forgot to send the memo to Rush.
 Totenkopf
01-15-2011, 12:13 AM
#107
Most of what I've seen and heard has been the right slamming the left for the sleazy move of immediately pinning the shooting on "right-wing rhetoric". The "left" can't really complain when they cast the first stone. But seriously, who's saying ALL liberals anyway.. it's mostly the professional left-wing punditry and political types that keep picking this fight.
 Q
01-15-2011, 7:44 AM
#108
This thread is a wonderful example of just how pervasive the propaganda has become throughout the media; on both the left and right.

It's almost as if they want us to start killing each other. :conspire:

On the bright side, maybe this incident will cause some people to realize that their own vaunted news source is just as full of crap as the one that they've been deriding ad nauseam.
 mimartin
01-15-2011, 8:56 AM
#109
Most of what I've seen and heard...Perhaps Evil Q is correct, but it is our own bias that let us see and hear only what we want to see and hear.
 JediAthos
01-15-2011, 9:37 AM
#110
On the bright side, maybe this incident will cause some people to realize that their own vaunted news source is just as full of crap as the one that they've been deriding ad nauseam.

I can't stand the national "news" outlets in the U.S. Once upon a time they may have been just news stations, but now they're not anything resembling journalists.

Typically I get my news from the AP or Reuters or I've even been known to listen to the BBC from time to time...I find much less rhetoric and opinion in these sources.

@thread: While I'm not opposed to the thought that words can be powerful enough to influence people...the people that those words would influence to commit violent acts have to already be unstable imo. As was pointed out by the article that Jae posted Loughner was already nuts...nobody drove him to this except the voices his own delusional head.
 Totenkopf
01-15-2011, 9:45 AM
#111
Well, seeing as how I've heard from "both" sides, I guess they're all arguably full of crap. Personal biases notwithstanding, being first out the gate to pin the event on someone's rhetoric (used by both sides, really....see Jae's piece by Krauthammer), doesn't give that side the moral highground to complain when the other side fires back. It would be nice (though maybe boring) if both sides could get along w/o this fractious bs getting in the way of doing the "peoples' work".
 mimartin
01-15-2011, 10:31 AM
#112
(..see Jae's piece by Krauthammer)Not exactly an unbiased source when you consider Rush wanted to name his future child after the man, well until now. Seems once you say something nice and accurate about a liberal you get on Rush’s crap list. (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Rush-Limbaugh-No-Longer-Planning-to-Name-Firstborn-Krauthammer-2978)
:xp:
 Tommycat
01-15-2011, 12:21 PM
#113
Oh mim, I could easily have thrown out the things that the conservatives have blamed it on, but those are pretty much on talk radio, and not really making it to CNN.

Here's what the Conservatives have blamed
Mental disorder(pretty much steadily)
Drug use(makes more sense than blaming Palin)
Liberals(thanks Rush)
Liberal media(thanks Rush)
His lack of religion(Thanks Rush)
Music(thanks again Rush).

But honestly what most of the talking heads on the conservative side have been doing(Rush aside) is saying "Woah there buddy. Take a look at yourselves before you start blaming us. This guy was a nutjob. Politics didn't have anything to do with it." Just as I've done here. We've been on the defensive from the start. Conservatives have been the ones attacked repeatedly. I haven't heard the conservatives actually attack anyone so much as say, "It doesn't make sense to blame us, he was called Liberal by his friend." At most conservatives have called Laughner a Liberal(which is not true, but an understandable mistake).

That's been my point through this entire thread. Blaming it on a political party is completely irresponsible until you can validate that he had a connection to that party. And as more news has come out, we have seen nothing to connect him to conservatives(or Liberals, but since this thread started out being hostile to Conservatives, and nearly every accusation has been from the Left...). Nothing to connect him to the Tea Party. Nothing to connect him to the "gunsights" posted in the top level.

Quite frankly it would be nice if those who used this as an opportunity to bash the conservatives would be big enough to admit they were wrong. But they won't because SOMEHOW it had to be the conservatives' pervasive hate speech that pushed Laughner to do this. In their minds conservatives are such a wrong in this world that it's okay to throw poo at them whether true or not. In other words, they are Rush Limbaughs of the Left.
 Totenkopf
01-15-2011, 1:01 PM
#114
Not exactly an unbiased source when you consider Rush wanted to name his future child after the man, well until now. Seems once you say something nice and accurate about a liberal you get on Rush’s crap list. (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Rush-Limbaugh-No-Longer-Planning-to-Name-Firstborn-Krauthammer-2978)
:xp:

In a guest post on National Review's The Corner blog, Krauthammer explains this is the just result he'd been hoping for. "Now you know why I returned Rush’s volley on Fox last night: I’ve just saved that poor little girl a world of hurt."

At least he's got a sense of humor. :p His criticisms are valid, though, regardless of whatever bias you seem to think he has. Still, I believe I saw him a few weeks ago say he'd probably lost his conservative "street cred" over something else he praised/agreed w/BO over (don't remember specific issue).
 Jae Onasi
01-15-2011, 1:22 PM
#115
This thread is a wonderful example of just how pervasive the propaganda has become throughout the media; on both the left and right.

(emphasis mine here)
I totally agree. Had this been a Republican that got shot, I'm sure the GOP would have done exactly the same and posted the DLC target map all over the net.

The only reason I posted that was to show that the Dems were utilizing this to try to slam the Tea-Partiers. Had the situation been reversed, however, I have no illusions that the far right would have used it to slam liberal Dems, too. I think if that had been the case, Krauthammer would have slammed the GOP for doing that, too. He may have gotten more conservative as he gains years, but he's nothing if not honest in his assessments.

It's a sad commentary on today's "journalism".
 Working Class Hero
01-16-2011, 12:27 AM
#116
We've been on the defensive from the start.
Lolz.
It never ceases to amaze me how the right is always the victim.


Caught the aftermath of the speech and Krauthammer seemed overall impressed w/the prez's performance.
I'm sorry, but I have to say this:

The very first post you made about the speech was about what somebody else thought of it. Believe it or not, if I wanted to know Krauthammer thought about it I would go to his site.
I want to know what you think about it. :)

--I didn't really think the speech was that great, to be honest. I understand fully that da prez has to make a public showing, since a congresswoman almost died, but I don't really care about the other people. I'm sorry, but people die all the time and in greater numbers.

At times, I felt like I was hearing George W speak. Obama really tried that American patriotism rhetoric, which always leaves me feeling ill.
Also, it's pathetic when our president calls America a democracy. Clearly, he needs to re-take high school history.
 Sabretooth
01-16-2011, 12:44 AM
#117
Also, it's pathetic when our president calls America a democracy. Clearly, he needs to re-take high school history.

http://h.imagehost.org/0179/not_sure_if_person_serious.jpg)
 Working Class Hero
01-16-2011, 12:52 AM
#118
Uh....I guess you're being serious asking if I'm not being serious?

Unless my dictionary and history professors have failed me, we (America) have a constitutional republic, not a democracy.
 Sabretooth
01-16-2011, 2:10 AM
#119
Unless my dictionary and history professors have failed me, we (America) have a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

I think your president is referring to democracy as in the doctrine and not the hard-and-fast political system, duder.

Besides, America is the world's largest exporter of freedom and democracy, everyone knows that.
 Totenkopf
01-16-2011, 11:30 AM
#120
I'm sorry, but I have to say this:

The very first post you made about the speech was about what somebody else thought of it. Believe it or not, if I wanted to know Krauthammer thought about it I would go to his site.
I want to know what you think about it. :)


Well, this is what I posted after and was responding to specifically:
I’ve cleaned up most of the off topic source arguments; if anyone sees anything else please use the report button and not the reply button. I expected to come back this morning to see the spin from the Memorial Service and everyone’s impression on the President speech instead I get the tired FoxNews arguments.

Since I obviously missed the speech, I couldn't have posted my own impression of it anyway. ;)

Unless my dictionary and history professors have failed me, we (America) have a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

I find that mistake annoying as well.
 mimartin
01-16-2011, 2:14 PM
#121
I find that mistake annoying as well.

It wasn't a mistake... I believe Sabre hit the nail on the head.
 Totenkopf
01-16-2011, 5:35 PM
#122
Wasn't addressing whether BO was taking some kind of license w/the term, rather that a lot of people often call America a democracy when in fact it isn't.
 mimartin
01-16-2011, 9:04 PM
#123
60 Minutes had an interesting story on Loughner tonight. The video isn’t available at the moment, but if you get a chance I thought it was an enlightening story (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml).

One of the most interesting things I learned was that he went into Safeway to get change for a $20. to pay a $15. cab fare. Timeline (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/14/national/main7247244.shtml?source=related_story&tag=related)

60 Minutes also talked to experts with the Secret Service that pretty much said most assassinations have little to nothing to do the politics.
 Tommycat
01-16-2011, 11:33 PM
#124
Actually calling it a Republic is only part of it. Yes, we are a democracy, but specifically we are a Democratic Republic.

Lolz.
It never ceases to amaze me how the right is always the victim.
Not saying the right is always the victim. But from the beginning of this the Right has been demonized. So, it is fair to say that from the beginning of this, the Right has been on the defensive. They've had to battle against the near constant assault of people like yourself who just want another reason to hate the Right.

I agree with Jae though that if it had been one of the right that was targeted, they probably would have done the same thing.

I just hope that I would be intellectually honest enough to not blame the Left or their rhetoric with no facts.
 Jae Onasi
01-17-2011, 2:55 PM
#125
Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/08/gabrielle-giffords-shot-tucson-arizona)

The Tea Party promised to take America back from the clutches of commie Muslims, and they're doing it one step at a time; frontier justice-style baby. :mex1:


You ain't going to find that ad on Palin's website now, as she's probably avoiding any implication of motivating/condoning a political assassination and/or terrorist attack. But just in case:


I'll leave you to draw the conclusions, friend-o. ;)

This is the OP, minus the pictures. This is an accusation by someone who is liberal, directly accusing a conservative of inciting a senseless, insane act of brutality. His comments mirror a lot of what was published nearly immediately after the shooting.

This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong. I have yet to see anyone apologize for making these irresponsible charges, and I find this to be a sad commentary on (mostly journalistic) "integrity".
 mimartin
01-17-2011, 3:28 PM
#126
This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong.Please show me the irrefutable evidence that has proven anything about the case.

While I would agree the circumstantial evidence I’ve seen show that blaming the Tea Party or any political ideas extremely far-fetched at best. I have seen nothing that has proven anything as fact.

At least with Jared Loughner still alive authorities my actually get to the facts instead of all the mere speculation to what was or was not the cause.
 Totenkopf
01-17-2011, 4:04 PM
#127
Given that the guy is bat guano crazy, not really sure what you could trust....regardless of whether his statements ended up appearing to implicate the left or the right.
 Q
01-17-2011, 4:55 PM
#128
The Beatles told him to do it. It's right there in the White Album.

At this point the above is just as likely as the Tea Party. :giveup:

Yellow journalism at its finest.
 mimartin
01-17-2011, 5:02 PM
#129
Given that the guy is crazyIs that your professional opinion Dr. Totenkopf? That could be the cause, but even that hasn’t been proven yet.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 11:27 AM
#130
Please show me the irrefutable evidence that has proven anything about the case.

thing that made the OP completely utterly wrong.
Tea Party: Laughner had nothing to do with the TEA party. His closest friends have stated that he didn't even listen to talk radio. In fact as has been shown, he was completely OUT of the political spectrum. So the accusation that the TEA party set this up is misinformed at best.

Not to mention that most of the talk radio I listened to here in AZ actually PRAISED GIFFORDS(:eek: can it be so?) for her going against her own party. She was a blue-dog Democrat.

Then there's evidence to show that Laughner may have targeted her as far back as 2007. Prior to the TEA party and when Sarah Palin was just the Governor of Alaska.
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 11:33 AM
#131
His closest friends have stated that he didn't even listen to talk radio. Really? That is a fact? I thought his friends said he cut the off a few months ago. So just how do they know anything about what he has been doing the few months before the shooting.

Seems a little hypocritical that people are upset over others speculation, but want their speculation treated as fact.

Plus what you all seem to be forgetting is this wasn’t made political by the bias liberal media. Arizona Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is the one that brought it up. Sorry, but most people would assume (incorrectly it would seem) that a Sheriff would not talk to the media about a case without some evidence.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 11:44 AM
#132
Okay, so in a few months time he decided to start listening to talk radio? That's a bit of a stretch. It also happens to be AFTER the election when the Tea party switched to looking forward to the 2012 election.

Nothing in the sites he visited points to the TEA party.
 Working Class Hero
01-18-2011, 11:53 AM
#133
If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die bitch" on a poster.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 11:59 AM
#134
If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die <female dog>" on a poster.
edited, just in case

Not sure about that one. BUT I do know from the report by a friend of his that he went to an event in 2007 and asked her, "How do you know words mean anything?" And she responded to him in Spanish. From there he got very agitated, and that may have been when he decided to write "Die <rhymes with Witch>"
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 12:00 PM
#135
Okay, so in a few months time he decided to start listening to talk radio? That's a bit of a stretch. I never said he did. I don’t know what he did during that three months. If you believe his parents he acted perfectly normal despite his friends saying otherwise. The point is I don’t know and neither do you. Saying he listen to talk radio is disingenuous, but saying he did not is just as disingenuous since there is no way of know either way.

Nothing in the sites he visited points to the TEA party.I never wrote he did... I have no clue what he did, but neither do you or anyone else. That is my entire point.

I don't think politics have anything to do with this, but my opinion is not fact and your opinion is not a fact either.
 jrrtoken
01-18-2011, 12:02 PM
#136
This is the OP, minus the pictures. This is an accusation by someone who is liberal, directly accusing a conservative of inciting a senseless, insane act of brutality. His comments mirror a lot of what was published nearly immediately after the shooting.Thanks, Jae; I abduct and murder children for their coveted baking blood, too. :rolleyes:

This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong. I have yet to see anyone apologize for making these irresponsible charges, and I find this to be a sad commentary on (mostly journalistic) "integrity".Please indicate where I claimed that the theory was immutably factual and accurate. I suggested it as a possible, although indirect, motive for the murder. As of writing, the profile of Loughner suggests that he indiscriminately borrowed from any number of influences to form a hodge-podge manifesto that didn't conform to any particular contemporary political ideology. I doubt that he even identified with the Tea Party movement, but for all anyone knows, trying to discern what truly influenced him and what was simply "filler" material is becoming a folly, as per his psychological profile.

For example, the Department of Homeland Security suggested (http://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/print/content/view/print/355125) that Loughner might have been influenced by a white-supremicist publication. Do we know that he was influenced by said publication? No, and in fact, the DHS later said (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/dhs_has_not_determined_possibl.html) that they haven't found any apparent connection between the two. Does this mean that the original speculation was absolutely pointless, or evidence has been found that completely debunks the theory? No and no. The initial Tea Party implication would also fall under this paradigm.
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 12:13 PM
#137
If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die bitch" on a poster.

He wrote that on a Thank You for Attending note he received from Giffords from 2007. The police have the letter as evidence. I think that speaks to his mentality that he would have kept that letter since 2007. His friends state that he was upset that Giffords would not/could not answer his question at the rally he attended. 'What is government if words have no meaning?'

The 60 Minutes video is now online. (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7253008n&tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel)
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 12:26 PM
#138
@mim: That is not what the media nor the OP, nor Sheriff Dupnik have been saying. They have used this as an attack on the conservative talk stations and TEA party. They have repeatedly switched from one conservative outlet to another and even now have switched to using it to support the DREAM Act(what the heck the DREAM Act had to do with the shooting is FAR beyond me). I'm pointing out that there is no evidence to support the claim that the TEA party/Conservatives had anything to do with the shooting. It's about like claiming that he was acting in self defense even though there is no evidence to support that claim.

Sorry for the edit:
@Pastramix:
No, there is evidence of him having read Mein Kampf a book usually read by white supremacists. Where is your evidence which supports him being associated with/being inspired by the TEA party.
 Totenkopf
01-18-2011, 12:38 PM
#139
Seems a little hypocritical that people are upset over others speculation, but want their speculation treated as fact.

Plus what you all seem to be forgetting is this wasn’t made political by the bias liberal media. Arizona Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is the one that brought it up. Sorry, but most people would assume (incorrectly it would seem) that a Sheriff would not talk to the media about a case without some evidence.

Doesn't really matter if you think Dupnik's comment was the spark that ignited the far-left libel machine or not. It should have been disregarded by them out of the gate as a bad case of sheer speculation by a govt official who should have known better than to elicit that kind if opinion on national tv. What the "left-wing" media has been doing is attempt to poison the well and muzzle their opposition with an avalanche of negative commentary to obscure whatever the real reasons Jared had or didn't have. Doesn't matter to their template. It's why you get people like Daisy Hernandez on NPR making race related comments about the identity of the killer. Imagine if some conservative journalist had done that with regard to either Loughner or Hasan... "Thank God it was a hispanic/muslim...." (remember, these wre many of the same people urging us not to jump to conclusions about Hasan's motivations right after that incident) Or the continuous drum of tv and print media pundits trying to pin this on the Tea Party or SP (conveniently ignoring the nature of American political rhetoric for most of our history). It's also worth noting that it's the liberal dems that always go for the "Fairness Doctrine" card in incidents like this....any excuse to muzzle their oppositions' pov. The only thing that's really hypocritical here is the actions by many on the left who have told us to be cautious about determining influences on people like Hasan but can't contain themselves from pinning blame on the TP or other conservative sources in this case.

@mim--"Dr."? Retract those claws, catman. :xp: If you can say you've never waited for a "professional opinion" before writing someone off as crazy b/c of what they've done....
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 12:48 PM
#140
Well you were commenting where I had asked Jae for irrefutable evidence that it “has since been proven utterly, completely wrong.” While I agree that it is beyond far-fetched to blame any political philosophy, I have seen nothing to make that belief fact.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 12:58 PM
#141
Well then, for that matter, we could easily blame the Left for providing her as a terget.
Daily Kos Link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/1204/74882/511/541568)
We could blame Anti-Flag which he previously stated was his favorite band... and very leftist. Link to interview (http://punxrukus.blogspot.com/2010/02/anti-flag-interview-with-justin-sane.html)

At least THOSE we have evidence in support of. As of yet, there is no evidence that suggests he was influenced by the TEA party.
 jrrtoken
01-18-2011, 1:00 PM
#142
No, there is evidence of him having read Mein Kampf a book usually read by white supremacists. Where is your evidence which supports him being associated with/being inspired by the TEA party.I don't have any empirical evidence to confirm or deny a link between Loughner and Tea Party literature. I also don't have the ability to probe other's minds, revealing their true motivations. Unlike myself, you seem to posses both, or simply a talent for reapplying standards per convenience.
 urluckyday
01-18-2011, 1:06 PM
#143
Is that your professional opinion Dr. Totenkopf? That could be the cause, but even that hasn’t been proven yet.

um, have you seen the guy's videos? He's insane.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 1:07 PM
#144
I don't have any empirical evidence to confirm or deny a link between Loughner and Tea Party literature. I also don't have the ability to probe other's minds, revealing their true motivations. Unlike myself, you seem to posses both, or simply a talent for reapplying standards per convenience.

But you had enough evidence to point the finger squarely at the TEA party. As I have said, there is no evidence that he was inspired by the TEA party. You threw out accusations with no proof.

Hey how about this daily Kos rant
http://www.wnd.com/images/110108kos.jpg)
Note the date. It, like Palin's target map, has since been removed.
 jrrtoken
01-18-2011, 1:19 PM
#145
But you had enough evidence to point the finger squarely at the TEA party. As I have said, there is no evidence that he was inspired by the TEA party. You threw out accusations with no proof.Besides the previous vandalism of Giffords' office, and a general sense of political dislike of Giffords by some, and now the shooting, there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association. Your insistence that lack of current proof equates to a false argument in this context is equally damning as suggesting that there is a direct implication between the two (which, if you've been comprehensively reading my posts, isn't what I've been saying at all). I suppose that this going to play out as a weak vs. strong (a)theism debacle.

Note the date. It, like Palin's target map, has since been removed.'Kay. Your point is what exactly? That the author might possess tendencies to murder Giffords? That could be plausible, but I don't really know either way.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 1:38 PM
#146
Besides the previous vandalism of Giffords' office, and a general sense of political dislike of Giffords by some, and now the shooting, there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association. Your insistence that lack of current proof equates to a false argument in this context is equally damning as suggesting that there is a direct implication between the two (which, if you've been comprehensively reading my posts, isn't what I've been saying at all). I suppose that this going to play out as a weak vs. strong (a)theism debacle.

'Kay. Your point is what exactly? That the author might possess tendencies to murder Giffords? That could be plausible, but I don't really know either way.

Yes, there was a strong dislike, but it was not limited to the Right(which was the point of the image). Despite the Left targeting her, damning her, being inflamed at her, you chose to point to the Right. And it's funny that you point to the vandalism. Seeing as how that incident was never solved. So while it MAY have been a rightist upset over the health care debate(which the timing might suggest) there is also no proof that it was the Right.
 Totenkopf
01-18-2011, 1:43 PM
#147
@PastramiX--should be fairly obvious. The post (and site) could just as easily have affected JL's thinking as you seem to believe the TP did. Both as links to his behavior are equally tenuous at best.

..there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association.

To anything, really. So, why are you so fixated on the TP? It could just as easily be openly racist groups, left-wing wackos disenchanted w/Gifford's voting record...
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 2:33 PM
#148
um, have you seen the guy's videos? He's insane.
Not in AZ.
 Tommycat
01-18-2011, 2:44 PM
#149
That's because people in AZ are crazy already... er... wait... I live in AZ. I rest my case?

Actually calling him crazy might not be accurate. Considering people have said that he used drugs, including hallucinogens, and has been arrested on drug charges, there is a possibility that his rambling on Youtube could be related to heavy self medication.
 mimartin
01-18-2011, 3:39 PM
#150
I was speaking more along the lines of the insanity defense in AZ.

I’m pretty sure he will be charged by both the State and Federal Governments. AZ does not allow the insanity defense and it is a tall order in assassination cases on the federal side of things.
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