I am starting this thread as a place we can post and study and enjoy the new Special Edition artwork, animation and music and compare it to the original. As a digital artist an animator myself I find this fascinating, and I am a big fan of the new art style in SE.
Please note: I respectfully request that posters do not engage in arguments over the quality of the SE compared to the original. By all means post your opinions on the quality be it good or bad, but I respectfully ask we all try and refrain from argument. Thank you
I am going to kick this thread off with these animation frames for Guybrush walking taken from both the original game and the Special Edition. I will eventually add animated gifs of these and anything else I can put together comparing backgrounds and animations, feel free to add your own or comment.
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/Guybrush-Animation-Sprites.jpg)
Frame 5 from the original seems to be messed up, not sure if that is a rip error or it is actually like that in game. I will investigate later. Unless someone else wants to try and grab it from in ScummVM for me :)
EDIT: I resized all the Guybrush original sprites so they are the correct size to the SE version.
That frame seems to be broken in this sprite sheet as well... maybe that's where the ripped image came from?
http://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/monkeyisland1/guybrush.png)
That frame seems to be broken in this sprite sheet as well... maybe that's where the ripped image came from?/guybrush.png[/IMG]
Yeah that's where I got it from, I noted the source on the image. Seems to be the only sprite animation sheet for Monkey 1, or the only one I could find anyway.
So when I get a chance I'll try and grab the right frame and replace it.
Seems unlikely it was intentional. Maybe they drew it the way it seems it should be and it looked wrong for some reason, although I can't see why. It will be interesting to put it in an animated gif and see how much it stands out with no background and now we are looking for it.
Well, if I'm not mistaken, all of the original animation was in 16 colors, so maybe it could be the fault of whoever made the game all pretty in 256 colors and they accidentally filled in the white part of the game. I can't really find any references for the 16 color version at the moment without downloading a demo, which I can't really do at work here.
Good point, let's track down that 16 color version and find out. I'll see if I can do that in a few minutes.
If you are in a position to load up ScummVM and take a series of screengrabs, the demo for the 16 color version is here:
http://demos.robertmegone.com/scumm/monkey1-dos-ega-demo-en.zip)
Yeah already got it, thanks. Grabbing screens now :-D
Well I'll be a monkeys uncle! Take a look at this -
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee//Guybrush-Animation-Sprite5.png)
EGA cut out on left and uncut on right. VGA in center.
Seems that it was the conversion from EGA to VGA that caused this sprite mess up. Looks like whoever upgraded the Guybrush sprite did a lazy copy paste on the legs from frame 2 and never fixed it correctly. How bizarre it went unnoticed for so long. I always thought the Guybrush animation looked fine, but I guess my eyes were filling in what I expected to see.
Although even the EGA foot looks wrong, and maybe that is what messed the VGA guy up.
Also while I realise my resize is not a perfect 1:1 on the VGA sprite. Looking at the pixels you can see they Made Guybrush taller in the VGA version too.
EDIT: Added SE Guybrush too.
I'm quite staggered that ATMachine doesn't already know this. Wow.
Or does he?!
It also seems that the EGA version had the little split in the trousers that is in the SE version but missing in the VGA. Interesting!
I'm confused... I guess I was talking about the 5th walk frame, not the 5th frame posted. I didn't like the black line on the shin and figured it would look better like something on the right, which I really crappily whipped up because I should really be working, haha:
Well that explains why I wasn't sure what you meant. But now that you mention it, you are right that black line is wrong too, wow more flaws in the original animation that I expected!
But by frame 5 I meant the one numbered 5 in my sprite image. And as you can see that VGA frame has even more issue's than frame 6's black line.
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/Guybrush-Animation-Sprite5.png)
The whole front leg should be straight (like the EGA and SE version), but even the EGA version has the leg right but the foot wrong.
However since you were talking about a different frame when you checked to see if it was right in the game, maybe frame 5 isn't like that in the actual game and the rip is at fault. I better go check, lol!
Although the foot is wrong in the EGA version, no doubt about that.
EDIT :-
Yep it's the same in the VGA version, not an error with the rip. Couldn't be bothered to find a demo for the VGA version and I don't have the game at work, so grabbed this from YouTUbe -
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/guy5.jpg)
Could it be that they intentionally "messed" it up after trying some perception tests of the walking animation? Maybe it looks better/more fluid this way?
Could it be that they intentionally "messed" it up after trying some perception tests of the walking animation? Maybe it looks better/more fluid this way?
Well when I get time I'll create an animated gif and do a fixed version of the frame, and we can see for ourselves I guess.
One thing I've realized while comparing the walking animations from both versions is that in SOMI:SE Guybrush walks more upright and straight. This is probably the reason why I thought his animation was so stiff. If you notice in the 1990 version (VGA or FM Towns) his walking animation is more loose and free. He also walks faster and less restricted to his pose. Then again it could just be me.
Moving him faster across the screen probably wasn't feasible.
Some of the puzzles might be timed with his speed. And other stuff like following the storekeeper might get problematic if you could run up to him :)
EDIT: seeing those animation sheets, it doesn't seem impossible for 2-3 animators do get this done for a SE. It's a lot but not overwhelming.
Here is a quick attempt (I am at work, :) ) to fix the broken 5th frame.
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/Guybrush-Animation-Sprite5-fix.png)
The center frame is my take on what that frame should look like. Again left is EGA version (with incorrect foot) right of mine is VGA (incorrect foot and leg) then the SE version.
If we can get a consensus on what the fixed frame should look like, we can see how it works in an animation. So anyone see anything wrong with this one? Wanna take a pop at fixing it?
EDIT: Added SE version again.
So Guybrush now walks across the screen on a 6 frame walk cycle inside a 30 fps tween, which also has a slight added ease in when he stops, none of which was in the original version, so it looks weird.
I really don't think they added an ease frame when he stops. That would require forcing in an additional frame in the code. Which unlike the effect on LeChuck and ghosts (which sit behind them) would require changing the original code rather than adding to. The frames I posted in the first post are all the frames from the walk animation that are in the flash, which match up with the original frames. So if there is an ease frame, I don't see that frame. if you don't mean a frame when you say added ease, then I am confused as to what you mean.
But I will investigate anyway.
EDIT:
Yeah I'm pretty sure there are no "ease" frames at all. I grabbed the HD video of the making of/trailer. And slowed the video down to frame. Then extracted the walking to stop animation. No ease frame. I created a GIF from it too.
As you can see, it does seem the sliding is caused at least partially by the background moving at a much higher frame rate than the sprite. Because here I have taken out all the frames without sprite animation in them and it looks much better. I say partially because I thought it was noticeable on some of the still screens too, I will investigate that later.
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/GB-nim-SE.gif)
In the original video, download here -
DOWNLOAD LINK (
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/GB-walk.mov)
You can see that he seems to slide into place as a result of the additional frames from the scrolling background. Seems to me it would be possible to fix this (although difficult) by forcing the animated sprite to scroll at the same speed as the background while maintaining the same animation frames.
governor's mansion
Great post, they both look fantastic, love how faithful the new one is!
EDIT: Appears my web host is down. That sucks, hope I didn't do it :-D
Relinking my images elsewhere.
I hate that they used the voice of Yakko for Bob. Yech, Animaniacs...
LOL, thanks for pointing that out! Now I'm going to hear him everytime!
But I think that clip is hilarious! Such great writing, "Ye are glad to be dead, RIGHT?!"
Brilliant!
EDIT: (note I edit rather than double or triple post whe I was the last poster)
Stole these from a post by Thunderpeel (but I removed the fan version screens as not relevant to this thread) -
I thought it might be interesting to compare the different artwork styles in comparison to the new SE.
The original:
http://www.thunderpeel2001.com/webpics/micompare/Circus-3.jpg)
The SE:
http://www.thunderpeel2001.com/webpics/micompare/Circus-1.jpg)
The original:
http://www.thunderpeel2001.com/webpics/micompare/LeChuck-3.jpg)
The SE:
http://www.thunderpeel2001.com/webpics/micompare/LeChuck-1.jpg)
Look how awesome LeChuck is in the SE! I think it's time fro some LeChuck comparisons :-D
Good work!
There seems to be no reason not to fix that frame, certainly looks better in the fixed one to me. The original one looks like he's walking with a limp to me now!
I also see that the 6th frame with the black line that SythenticGerbil mentioned certainly seems to stand out as a bad mistake too now it's been pointed out!
The SE version looks great to me. I see the SE arms don't swing as much, they probably changed it because such exaggerated motions are not needed with such a high resolution sprite. I think a more exaggerated swing like the original could look better and give a bit more character. But it would also stand out more (further each animated thing is in each frame and all).
SE guybrush's hair also doesn't bounce like in the original sprite.
SE guybrush's hair also doesn't bounce like in the original sprite.
Yes, that would have been a nice touch for them to include. Do we dare get cocky and start improving on their animated sprite :dev9:
awesome work everyone! Love dissecting classic games art.
yeah a little secondary bounce motion on the pony tail would have been a nice touch.
But as I said in another post, you need very skilled 2D animators to realize such things and to time and make it look right.
btw surely there must be a room artwork somewhere in MI2 where taller character sprites would cause a problem. Would be a shame if they couldn't use the original scanned artwork and had to redo all the door frames :)
Pretty huge improvement on Ghost Lechuck here -
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/LeChuck-SE-comp.png)
I doubt anyone will disagree that the new LeChuck is a vast improvement, and nicely faithful to Zombie LeChuck too :)
You don't need to take immature digs at me. You have just arrived at these forums. Try to fit in a little bit more and don't act so much like an autistic child.
Woah. You are WAY out of line, Synth.
Woah. You are WAY out of line, Synth.
Dude it's OK, we buried the hatchet. So to speak. Let's not drag it back up again! But thanks.
he definitely has more character now. Way more menacing. But I really liked his old pose. He looked really bloated and big. (he felt older and more obese in MI than in REVENGE, so it's no miss that he is now more in line with the Zombie version)
btw the torso area feels a little 3d-ish. Might they have modeled all the characters in 3d?
btw surely there must be a room artwork somewhere in MI2 where taller character sprites would cause a problem. Would be a shame if they couldn't use the original scanned artwork and had to redo all the door frames :)
Well I think it may actually be that he is thinner rather than taller. My sprite sheets might throw you off because I didn't bother to the original Guyrush sprite the same height as the new. But if you look at this -
http://i44.tinypic.com/2wbx4rc.jpg)
He seems to be the same height, or the made all the backgrounds taller too, but I doubt it. We could check by overlaying them, but pretty sure they will match up really closely.
I'm gonna have to be in the minority and say: I don't like the new GP LeChuck... (Sorry!)
Reasons? His face looks human, his body just looks weird. He's a GHOST, right? Hmmm. Sorry, guess it's just me.
My own personal nitpick, though? The angles on the mansion! They ruined it! (Sort of.) It's supposed to be exaggerated, instead it looks... confusing. And it is just me or did somebody forget to finish the sky off?!?
As for the animations: Wow, I can't believe we stumbled across a mistake in the VGA version that no-one has noticed. I'd love to compare the Amiga sprite (I don't think he has that weird bit "dripping" from his nose, either :)).
I think the animated gif also pretty much conclusively proves that the SE animation is crap. But, c'est la vie.
he definitely has more character now. Way more menacing. But I really liked his old pose. He looked really bloated and big. (he felt older and more obese in MI than in REVENGE, so it's no miss that he is now more in line with the Zombie version)
btw the torso area feels a little 3d-ish. Might they have modeled all the characters in 3d?
Yeah I think they did, if you blow them up they look 3D modeled. Especially the HORRIBLE sprite of Guybrush flying at the screen. Hold on I'll post that monstrosity....
Here -
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/GB-ugly.png)
Full size hideousness! (
http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/05/14/51444_TheSecretOfMonkeyIslandSpecialEdition-CharacterArt-07.jpg)
No excuse for how terrible that frame is, however it is only seen for a few seconds at most.
Where did you find THAT... Yikes! :(
You're right: It IS 3D modelled, too! How bizarre. I wonder why?
I'm gonna have to be in the minority and say: I don't like the new GP LeChuck... (Sorry!)
Reasons? His face looks human, his body just looks weird. He's a GHOST, right? Hmmm. Sorry, guess it's just me.
My own personal nitpick, though? The angles on the mansion! They ruined it! (Sort of.) It's supposed to be exaggerated, instead it looks... confusing. And it is just me or did somebody forget to finish the sky off?!?
As for the animations: Wow, I can't believe we stumbled across a mistake in the VGA version that no-one has noticed. I'd love to compare the Amiga sprite (I don't think he has that weird bit "dripping" from his nose, either :)).
I think the animated gif also pretty much conclusively proves that the SE animation is crap. But, c'est la vie.
Well I guess this is where subjective opinion rules. Because I fall on the opposite opinion in ever issue :giggle1:
On most of your points I fully understand where you are coming from, I just feel differently, but on the Mansion?!! I am confused, it's almost identical other than a higher resolution.
Gotta agree on the sky though, obviously the new is day and old night. But I think the new one has animated sky, and that frame just does not show it in it's best light.
Where did you find THAT... Yikes! :(
You're right: It IS 3D modelled, too! How bizarre. I wonder why?
Maybe Lucasarts don't have any 2D artists on staff so they did it all 3D and converted it, lol!
Or maybe they created a 3D model for reference and just used it in this one horrible frame. Maybe they intend (or intended) to redo at some point. Weirdest thing is this is one of the images they released to the press when it was announced!!! I got it from Gamespot!
Also on LeChuck, do note that in the actual game he has that kick has ghostly aura around him :shades2:
I'm gonna have to be in the minority and say: I don't like the new GP LeChuck... (Sorry!)
Reasons? His face looks human, his body just looks weird. He's a GHOST, right? Hmmm. Sorry, guess it's just me.
It's not just you. I don't really like the new one that much either. Though I didn't like the original MI1 one either, his nose was weird.
But yeah, his face looks too human now.
I think LeChuck looks alright, they kinda reworked him to match up with the newer ones I think... re: red coat, tan hat ect. I must admit I really disliked it at first because he wasn't blue and transparent, but I got over it. Hell he looks better than Guybrush, atleast they didn't mess up both of the main characters.
Regarding the Mansion: Yeah, I know it's minor, but it's the front "pillar" of the house. It's all askew. I've just given it a quick, literally 3 minute, go into PS to try and show what I mean... I'm probably the only who would ever notice -- it's just this was one of my favourite screens in the original game :)
The TOP one is mine...
http://www.thunderpeel2001.com/webpics/improvement.jpg)
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those both the same picture? Or am I really freaking tired...
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those both the same picture? Or am I really freaking tired...
Lol! There IS a difference... and it bugs me every time I look at it!
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those both the same picture? Or am I really freaking tired...
I thought that at first too. But I found it. On the front tower thingie, the windows are normaly angled in one pic, and strangely angled at the other.
That 3D model would also account for that vacant stare and caveman forehead of the Guybrush sprite.
But why even bother going through all that extra work? Even for reference if needed?
Yeah pretty strange. However I don't think it accounts for the Guybrush design as the design is pretty close to the ones see in hand drawn concept art.
On LeChuck, his arm is strangely short. But I think he looks great. The original LeChuck was always pretty awful in my opinion, compared to the rest at least. He never received the level of upgrade the rest did in the VGA upgrade.
Well it is definitely easier to use a rigged 3d model for posing. Especially when we are talking character sprites that are even more detailed than the CMI ones. Else it would've been a hell of a lot more work.
And it is true that beginners might animate a little more stiff if the rig isn't too good for squash and stretch stuff, but I saw colleagues of mine work with 3d posed stuff and then drew over it and it was way out there. Very cool, so it doesn't always have to be more stiff.
There might even be a point where it isn't feasible anymore to draw. If you do a movie in 1080p with e.g. 12fps+ animation and you have CMI level character detail it will be a lot of work...a lot.
Think about it: back in 1990 they had like 3 animators and with the little pixels it wasn't too difficult for them to all "draw" in the same style.
But with those high-res gfx and maybe some not so skilled LucasArts newcomers, it is a lot easier to get everyone on the same line if you provide them with a nicely detailed and fully rigged 3d model to start off from.
There is a great Bill Tiller interview out there where he mentions that they basically HAD to simplify and cartoonify the characters. Working in higher-res you can't do "realistic" characters without a major headache. They needed simpler outlines for the animators.
I dunno how much traditional 2D animators LucasArts has on staff, probably only 2 or 3. I find it very understandable that they used the 3d model starting point to get their animations.
This way you guarantee that your sprite will always look 99% the same.
If you watch cartoons with (tall) human figures in them, they often look slightly different from shot to shot. I wouldn't want that in a videogame. And add to that the fact that the "ink outlines" are never as solid and smooth in a drawn cartoon as in a video game.
I'm not saying I hate woobly outlines or rough edges, just that they would mean a totally different art style or MAJOR cleanup Photoshop-style which would not be feasible.
Now you might say: What about CMI? Yeah that was handdrawn, but even at 640x480 you feel the rough outlines. I wonder how it would look in 1080p. The art style of MI:SE would not match up to that kind of rough edges. You'd need to design everything around it.
if the xenophobia at cartoonbrew.com is any indication
xenophobia (
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xenophobia) or technophobia :confused:
I guess it's easy to see that adding a lot of the detail via a 3D model is a lot less time consuming when working in such a hi-res.
I don't know guys, seems like a lot of negativity and nit picking in this thread. I'm I the only one that loves the look of the Special Edition? Most of you seem to have nothing but criticism?
I mean believe me, I'm not just loving it because I want to. Take a look at my fixing the SE poster thread. I LOATH the Guybrush on the poster with a passion, and wasn't into the hair on the sprite at first either, but it has really grown on my to the point where I like the SE Guybrush second best.
I expected people to not like some elements but I also expected to see some love too, and so far, very little.
EDIT: You know what, before I dreail this thread please ignore this post. I'll go create another topic for this discussion :-D
OK< please reply to this post in the new topic rather than me derailing this one. Thanks.
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=198610)
I love the new look of SOMI:SE and starting to get over Guybrush's awful hair. And make a thread that is something that I can understand. All this talk of animations and frames has got me confused lol. BTW my 100th post!
100 posts is nothing special. Five thousand is.
But anyway, I'm starting to get over how bad Guybrush looks too. Though I still don't like his sprite, makes him look bald around his ears.
Elaine Marley
http://amphomepage.com/temp/lee/Elaine-SE.png)
Don't like how Elaine looks on the poster (too manly) but I think she looks pretty cute here. Although her walk animation is a little stiff. Good job we hardly see it in the game.