What plans?
Their plans for Kotor3 plot.


So you're saying that it's a ripoff of the OT just because there's a guy whose title is "Emperor"? That's preposterous.

News-flash: the word "emperor" has existed for thousands of years, so by your logic, the fact that Palpatine's title was "Emperor" is unoriginal, too.
The problem is that is not some random guy/ruler of a random planet using the title. He's a Sith Lord, fighting with The Republic and ruling a galactic Empire. And of course, he's an ьber evil main villian. Sounds familiar? The intentions behind naming this Sith lord an Emperor are clear IMO.

Yeah, they did use it already, on one planet out of millions in the galaxy.
Now they're gonna copy and paste this concept onto every planet in the MMO. Epic!

In my opinion, I think that the best possible MMO that can be made out of Star Wars would be a non-canon to the storyline one. Imagine just the universe, and you would be some kind of freelancer in it, and have a job, like bounty hunter, entertainer, diplomat, Czerka Corporation employee and such, and not being necessarily Jedi or Sith, part of the Republic or the Sith Empire, just, as Jango Fett says in the movies, "I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.", or something like that. The idea of just Sith and Jedi fighting in a MMO sounds pretty dumb and uninteresting to me - I hope there'll be professions and such, and freelance exploring and doing interesting story-driven quests. I hope it'll be like that, not just simple killing.

But, the possibility of joining a Jedi/Sith academy and learning the ways of the Force shouldn't be left out, either. But being Jedi/Sith shouldn't have an effect on the jobs you do to make your living. As far as I could tell by reading the description of the SW MMO, it states that "choose to be a Jedi or Sith". I don't think there'll be much variety in it. :(

And also, the events in the galaxy that would be determined by other players, should have an effect on the galaxy itself. Just like in KotOR, poisoning the kolto -> the price for the medpacks raises. And, during the Jedi/Sith war, there would be different things to do in a specific planet determined if it is either controlled by the Sith or the Jedi. Important thing that it shouldn't be left out is the fact that there should be different organisations than the Sith and the Jedi - like the Exchange and Pirate organisations, such as the Hutts.

What is it with people's need to be just another brick in the wall?? I play Games to be the Hero, kick ass across the Galaxy... I can be a non-canon Bar man or a Clothes maker in Real Life lol, less knittin more Kickin!!

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved :)) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea? :lol:


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

LOL, I never said that it shouldn't be left out. Of course, battling is an important factor in the game, but I hope that there'll be professions. Bounty Hunting, for example, would be very interesting, assassinating targets without being seen.

:( so sad i wanted to see what happened to revan
hmmm and prime my guess is there will be a section in the game with either history and lore or maybe they will be mentioned by the umm trainers if there will be any

Change of thought: KotOR V: Getting Somewhere... (32 BBY-0 BBY) would be great. It would be like this: KotOR-ish (improved :)) with different times in the Prequel Trilogy! Prologue... (32 BBY), Invasion of Naboo + Epic duel w/ Darth Maul (32 BBY) Giant gap (32 BBY-22 BBY), Clone Wars beginning (22 BBY), Getting Somewhere... (19 BBY), Great Jedi Purge (19 BBY), Vader's Apprentice (??? BBY-2 BBY), Battle of Yavin (0 BBY) and you get to choose which one you want to choose! You can save the game at any part at any time and switch to a new one (for example: If you got bored of the Invasion of Naboo sequence, you could save there and (from the main menu) switch over to another part!) Good idea? :lol:


Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

That's not entirely accurate. TFU created an entirely new story with a new character, but just as easily done something completely different. The 300 year gap had already carved certain things in stone. I wanted to see Revan and the Exile end their stories in triumph, but now they never return. There is little room for a KOTOR III that doesn't involve changing the story, or it would would detract from all the KOTOR storylines.

Their fate was sealed long before the MMO. When Obsidian started making gods of them. What did you expect to happen. Two Jedi go into True Sith territory. I don't care how much of a tough guy you are, you go into Bloods territory with Crips colors, and expect to come out victorious?

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end. They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea. The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

That's what the cliffhanger was all about. I was expecting something so clever or so miraculous, but instead got something that was a cheap means to an end.

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.

They didn't even have an ending like the last stand of the 1300 Spartans and Thespians at Thermopolea.

That would've sucked pretty badly - and we'd still be hearing the screams for blood from the Revan fanboys even if that were the case.

Also, it would have been reinforcing the godliness that Obsidian put into TSL - and that's something I, for one, can do without.

The disappointment didn't come from Obsidian, but from whoever decided to kill the cliffhanger because they couldn't come up with a dramatic ending.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.

I'm disappointed too, but it seems you've let your expectations get the better of you - and there was never any promise of a KOTOR III, aside from the rumor mongering that circulated about once every six months.
Not really. Pre-production of K3 began already in the middle of 2004, but the team responsible for it at Lucas Arts was fired only a couple months later. We heard rumors about it back in the days and not so long time ago actual concept arts from the cancelled K3 project leaked.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there's not really a cliff-hanger at all when you look at it. Each of the two KOTOR games is pretty much self-contained. TSL wasn't that much of a sequel as it was a completely separate game, with Revan occasionally mentioned to create some semblance of a connection.
Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

Hmmm... Despite having a different character, K2 was basically all about Revan, the Mandalorian Wars and other topics introduced in the first game. TSL completly changed/expanded the player's view of Revan and the events in K1.

It was about defeating the Sith Triumvirate, while listening to every NPCs opinion on how Revan was a god. It's almost like they added all the Revan refences just to bulk up the plot.

Obsidian's K2 killed Revan by making him into a god. Then they conveniently sent him to do battle in unwinnable odds. If he made it out, it would have been a cheat. If he died in the game it is no different than hearing great stories of heroism. The Spartans had tactics and terrain to their advantage. Revan and the Exile were outsiders attempting to overthrow a race. What was he going to do, plop down on the Sith home world and hack his way through the whole place? Sorry, but it's probably best to leave us to our imaginations as to how he did it.

Besides, it gives people a chance to make him more of a legend than the true Revan. Make him "eight feet tall, kills Sith by the hundreds. And if he were here he would defeat the Sith with fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his .... um... hands... yeah... hands..."

The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.

I believe I wish you hadn't said that.

The first game was self contained... that can't really be disputed. The second was anything but self-contained. The climax came at the end of the game and... what was the resolution? Some old witch telling the Exile only some of what was going to happen? That she and Revan were going to have to fight the True Sith? That's an ending?
That is the failing of TSL. It was not a complete game. Heck even Lucas knew better than to make his movies with the expectation of a sequel. Yes they had a planned story, but each movie could stand on its own without the following movie.

And just because Revan and the Exile would defeat the Sith... for some reason, I never even pictured in my head that they were going to use brute strength to slay them all until someone described it that way. I imagined something brilliant that would have allowed a single person to alter the course of history. That was the whole buildup that came about Revan from HK-47. It's not so far-fetched that cunning and deception can beat brute strength.
Um... I'll start with the basic of that story is probably best left as a bit of history. Not as a whole game to explain it. Unless you start out as the godly Revan as described in TSL, it won't be your player doing it. Instead you'll get exposition from other sources... may as well be exposition by NPC's in the MMO 300 years later.

If you don't believe me, then believe history. Only a few individuals were responsible for 9/11 and look at the havoc those few had on history. THEY didn't cause anything that happened after the attack, it was a populace.
Excellent example. Better than any other I could have used. This supports my argument better than anything. If you make a game based on the terrorists, you would have far too short of a game to really make it worth it. NOW if you make a game in the aftermath of that event it has much more options for story. Large grandiose plans like the ones used by the terrorists are best as exposition and explaining WHY things are the way they are.

Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. That was what I expected Revan to do against the True Sith.

The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn out as expected. It was expected that Persia would dominate Greece, but because the Greeks were so clever, they could hold off 300,000 with only a fraction that number. Who are credited as the heros? At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. Would history have remembered the last stand of the 300 if the Persians just pulled out without reason? I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a great series.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.

Sorry, but I don't see how 9/11 fits with your argument. As much as I disliked what they did, you can't ignore that they took on a juggernaut like the US and won... because they used their enemies' agents against them. The best dramas I've seen are those that don't turn up as expected. At the end of TSL, it is expected that the Sith would ultimately win. I guess that a stalemate was unexpected, but hardly a fitting end to a series.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.

My example of 9/11 is to show that a lack of numbers does not directly influence the potential quality of any KOTOR III... in fact could make it that much better. I would be more likely to believe Revan was clever enough to beat the True Sith than that they decided to just let the Republic and Jedi regain their strength so they could have a fair fight. Why would they have done something so stupid after all the flawless actions they took before then?

Of course, this is only my opinion. Feel free to argue with it.
Um... in a game, you want to tell me how you could translate that little attack translates to how a game could play out. As I said, It would be better as merely exposition. The small numbers did not stop us. It did not defeat us. In fact it reinvigorated us(it was our leadership that did not properly capitalize on that that caused the breakdown).

Example: From the Sith perspective they recall that they were not planning to attack the Republic until Revan and the Exile attacked them. From the Republic perspective they could explain that Revan and the Exile slowed the inevitable advance.

Translating it to a game where the end will be that the true Sith are not stopped will not sit well with people. Keep in mind that the terrorists did not win. In fact it caused the US to lash out and attack more. though I would rather not go too far into that subject as it holds very emotional ties to it.

I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.

I understand the 9/11 comparison and actually think its being cleverly used by both of you...

But, this is not a serious debate forum. If you would like to continue with the 9/11 argument, please take it to PMs. If not, then try to find a less controversial and sensitive topic to relate to.

Thanks!

By the way Darth_Yuthura: Your posting has been fine, so you don't need to constantly remind people that it is your opinion at the end of posts. Just a heads up if you think I'm watching you like a hawk or something.

I would not go into more depth on something like a terrorist attack, but anyone who says the US ultimately won is wrong. They did much more damage than they ever dreamed and we, the US, suffered terrible losses from that event. Just because we endured doesn't mean we were 'victorious.'

The point of the reference was to counter the reason that you can't have a conclusion because there aren't enough Jedi or Republic to defeat the True Sith. I think that is the very reason that KOTOR III would be so great. Anything else wouldn't make sense.
All I'm saying is that it would be better done in exposition or a cut scene than to base a game around it. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be concluded at all. I AM however saying that it would make for an uninteresting game with that conclusion as the basis for the game. What you want for a game is basically something that could be summed up in a 2 minute cutscene. Since we would not play as Revan(because by this time he's godlike) and more likely a new character, we'd end up learning about Revan through other characters(NPC's). If we're going to do that, it hurts nothing to learn about it from others 300 years later.

Perhaps. If Revan were indeed a god, then I would agree that any K3 game would suck.

However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else. "Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all. That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.

Darth_Yuthura, I gotta ask, why are you posting on the TOR forum when you so clearly dislike the very idea of this game?

I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it. Of those who voted here, more were disappointed than those who were neutral or against it being 300 years later.

Besides, I like reading the inciteful comments left behind by others.

However, I don't think that Revan was made into a god in KOTOR II. Everything that Revan had done came more from his strength of character and leadership than anything else.
Nah, it came from Avelone writing Revan into a Mary Sue. Regardless of Light or Dark side was always in it to help the Republic. His massive amount of strength and leadership were given to Revan in TSL, and there it stayed.

"Do not think that a galaxy cannot be conquered with words." I would actually think Revan would make a perfect Jedi if he had come up with something so clever, so cunning, that he didn't need to use a lightsaber at all.
Yeah, but "I'm going to talk to you to death The Video Game" is a very uninteresting Star Wars game. Revan and Exile left, and from there we know absolutely nothing about them.

They have not released information on the location, status, history, etc of Revan and Exile yet. None. Nada. Zero. We don't know if they DID in fact keep a truce between the Republic and Sith for 300 years. We don't know if they turned to their tune and became Sith. We don't know if they became magical fairies and descended onto the planet of candy coated chocolate.

That would make a better conclusion than anything TOR could possibly have with all the thousands of Jedi, millions of guns, and with all the odds stacked in the Republic's favor.

Yeah... I wonder how the Republic could possibly be the victors under those conditions.
I'm going to remind you of where this is set:

3,500 years before Luke. What does that mean?

It means the republic is going to win regardless of what Revan, Exile, you, me etc do

Why? Because we have seen the movies. We know they are going to win. To assume otherwise is simply trying to fight fate.

Yes, maybe our all mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi Revan isn't there to fix the problems for the Republic... But aren't you tired of the Mary Sue fixing all the problems? There is in fact Republic before and after Revan. Revan isn't there for 25,000 years to keep the Republic safe.

So, all I can assume is that the majority of the complaints are stemming from the fact we can't be our favorite mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi. Yet, we weren't allowed to be in TSL and on hindsight most people seemed to like that game.

Most who are for the 300 years later often bring up that there are too few Jedi, too beat-up Republic, and that any story that comes from this is either too unbelievable or simply can't work out.
That would be a great example if this was an actual war.

But it has already been stated that this is a Cold War. They -did- in fact -lose- the war. That is the -entire- point of the game. The Sith came in, vastly outnumbered them, and the Jedi and Republic both lost in a landslide. Now the Jedi are attempting to bring their numbers up, and the ruined Republic military is attempting to put itself back together under the watchful eye of the new rulers.

They LOST.

There is no "There wouldn't be enough" because there Wasn't enough. The MMO is going to follow you and your steps to try and influence this war along with thousands or millions of others. If 1 Jedi can turn the tide and take over a Galaxy, why can't a Million push against an empire?

The Rebel alliance was vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but they won out in the end. Your example of the little guy not winning falls flat on its face when you take a look at the rest of Star Wars lore.

The point seems to be that you are a soldier on the lines trying to fight for your cause. You aren't a super smart, amazing, one of a kind main character. You're a soldier. That it what made WoW, Lotro, Matrix Online, and basically every other MMO ever made so popular.

You are an average Joe trying to do your part in a Cold War that is stacked against you.

Yeah, but "I'm going to talk to you to death The Video Game" is a very uninteresting Star Wars game.

It's even in the name - Star Wars. A Star Wars game without some combat isn't going to go very far. It's built on lightsaber duels and space battles.

Yes, maybe our all mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi Revan isn't there to fix the problems for the Republic... But aren't you tired of the Mary Sue fixing all the problems? There is in fact Republic before and after Revan. Revan isn't there for 25,000 years to keep the Republic safe.

QFE.

So, all I can assume is that the majority of the complaints are stemming from the fact we can't be our favorite mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedi.

I'd say that's pretty likely. 300 years later, there's barely a chance of seeing, or being Revan.

I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it.

Somehow, I don't think Lucasarts are going to change an entire game that's already in development because 60 people don't like it.

I look at the kotor3 vs TOR as apples to oranges.

Kotor3 is a sequel to kotor1 and kotor2.

TOR is a new story which is grounded by the events in kotor1-2.

I was not big into the idea of a mmo type of game but if they can pull off the story in this game then they will be successful.

I like the idea of putting TOR 300 years after kotor. This allows the writers a large amount of freedom which is what I feel hurts Galaxy. In TOR you don't know the ending of the story or what will be waiting for you around the next bend in the story. :)

TOR will be a game as big as all 6 star wars episodes. I do believe we will hear about Revan and the Jedi Exile in the game. Kotor1-2 will connect with TOR in a way that the Clone war connected with Episodes 4-6, as a back drop.

I will make a prediction that what ever the Sith Emperor is looking for will be connected to what happen to Revan. Revan might show up as a force ghost or his holocron will be found during the adventure.

Logan

I look at the kotor3 vs TOR as apples to oranges.

Kotor3 is a sequel to kotor1 and kotor2.

TOR is a new story which is grounded by the events in kotor1-2.

I was not big into the idea of a mmo type of game but if they can pull off the story in this game then they will be successful.

I like the idea of putting TOR 300 years after kotor. This allows the writers a large amount of freedom which is what I feel hurts Galaxy. In TOR you don't know the ending of the story or what will be waiting for you around the next bend in the story. :)

TOR will be a game as big as all 6 star wars episodes. I do believe we will hear about Revan and the Jedi Exile in the game. Kotor1-2 will connect with TOR in a way that the Clone war connected with Episodes 4-6, as a back drop.

I will make a prediction that what ever the Sith Emperor is looking for will be connected to what happen to Revan. Revan might show up as a force ghost or his holocron will be found during the adventure.

Logan

They ruined the storyline based on the following logic

The Old Republic's story does answer a few questions that we had at the end of TSL. We don't know for sure but based of the evidence presented in BioWare's backstory, and the end of the lightside female version of TSL, we can theorize that the Exile goes off to meet Revan. <GAP> The True Sith emerge unscathed.

We can only assume that they were killed in their attempt to stop the sith, but what a battle it must have been. On the scale of Anakin and the Clones, verse the entire Jedi Temple. Or, the Geonosis Arena battle.

Anyway, here's my point about KOTOR 3, you play a game for 30 - 50 hours of going around unknown space with Revan, the Exile, and your new character. You seem to get to the final battle and you beat the villan. Then, a cut scene starts that shows your entire party being slaughtered, the Sith emerge in known space with an armada, and you lose anyway. Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?

That's about as anticlimactic as the King Arthur and the Knights of Round Table being arrested at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and they didn't find the cup, either.

Again, sorry that you can't play your mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedis.

Your argument would have plenty of feet if this was set 30 years after or so.

This is 300. Ok, please let that sink in for once.

Three hundred years.

Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.

That's about as anticlimactic as the King Arthur and the Knights of Round Table being arrested at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and they didn't find the cup, either.
It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

Then 300 years later, Hitler Germany invades and takes over Europe.

Not the greatest example, but you get my point. It has been 300 years.

This Sith invasion is just another invasion the Republic faces in its like, 15,000 year lifespan.

The Sith are attacking again, and this time they pretty much won. This doesn't even have to be Revan's True Sith. It doesn't have to be Exile's True Sith. For all we know, they made a truce or something with them for 300 years, then some new Sith Lord comes around and breaks it.

300 years. Thats the difference between America being a bunch of huts and small houses, and present day.

300 years.

That is 100 years, 3 times.

That is roughly how old our America is.

Thats longer than 50 years ago. Before World War 1 and 2!

Thats 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Revan and Exile probably didn't make it past 100 years.

A lot happens in 200 more years!

Anyway, here's my point about KOTOR 3, you play a game for 30 - 50 hours of going around unknown space with Revan, the Exile, and your new character. You seem to get to the final battle and you beat the villan. Then, a cut scene starts that shows your entire party being slaughtered, the Sith emerge in known space with an armada, and you lose anyway. Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?
Guess what?

http://www.alexandgregory.com/images/darth%20sidious%205325.jpg)

You lose in 3,500 years anyway.

Everything that they do in the old Republic is pointless, because we already know the Republic and Jedi both get wiped out by Sidious.

There, story over.

C'mon. Thats like saying Call of Duty is pointless to play because we already know Hitler is going to lose. Or saying that researching about Napoleon is pointless because we already know Barack Obama will be elected.

Would anyone really want to do all that work when you are guaranteed to lose, anyway?
People [apparently] didn't want the ending in TFU to be good, either, so what the people want doesn't matter as much as you might think.

Also, what Ctrl said.

I read somewhere that having an ending that involves Revan and the Exile defeating the True Sith would be cheating and anti-climatic.

I would say that creating a 300-year gap with no logical explanation... that's cheating! Why not just leave TOR with a new cliffhanger and make the next game 300 years after that? If all you have to do is set the timeline a few hundred years later and give a vague explanation that doesn't even make sense, then Lucasarts has become very cheap indeed.

Why not just let the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for the next 3450 years? Then somewhere along the line, for no reason, the Jedi emerge on top just in time for The Phantom Menace. Why would anyone like a climax if they know the resolution can just be nothing more than a vague description of something completely new?

The very existence of this game is a cheat! KOTOR III is the resolution, not TOR!

I read somewhere that having an ending that involves Revan and the Exile defeating the True Sith would be cheating and anti-climatic.
And they would be right. To an extent.

I would say that creating a 300-year gap with no logical explanation... that's cheating! Why not just leave TOR with a new cliffhanger and make the next game 300 years after that? If all you have to do is set the timeline a few hundred years later and give a vague explanation that doesn't even make sense, then Lucasarts has become very cheap indeed.
So you know every bit of dialog in TOR will have no explanation at all of why it took 300 years for the True Sith to attack? Exposition of godly deeds rather than somehow being the godly character.

Why not just let the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for the next 3450 years? Then somewhere along the line, for no reason, the Jedi emerge on top just in time for The Phantom Menace. Why would anyone like a climax if they know the resolution can just be nothing more than a vague description of something completely new?
Interestingly enough, in the movies they say that the republic has stood for a thousand years. So technically they could have the True Sith defeat the Republic and conquer the galaxy for about 2500 years. Then the republic being reformed for the last thousand.

The very existence of this game is a cheat! KOTOR III is the resolution, not TOR!
HAHA Riiiiiiiight. A Godly character isn't a cheat, but a game you have NO idea what the story is, somehow is a cheat. Or is it because it's 300 years later. Set only a few years after TSL would be like the ANH era, with no or very few jedi. Setting it 300 years later gives an abundant pool of fresh jedi to pick from.

Yeah... cheat. If you disagree, then don't support my side of the argument. I would think a god-like character is a lot better because it at least required some effort. Lucasarts cheated by not completing the KOTOR series and starting anew 300 years later.

What if for the last Harry Potter novel, Atkinson just resumed the plot after the villain was defeated? Voldomort was too powerful, everyone was dead, and everything was hopeless, so her solution... Just start afresh!

Try making a good ending to such a climatic ending to TSL. If anyone wants to complain, then remember that the TSL ending is bad because they created such an anti-climatic end with TOR. My anger is directed at the ones who decided to begin anew and just leave the climax in limbo indefinitely.

Yeah... cheat. If you disagree, then don't support my side of the argument. I would think a god-like character is a lot better because it at least required some effort. Lucasarts cheated by not completing the KOTOR series and starting anew 300 years later.
No, they didn't cheat. They just didn't feel there was a game's worth of content following the god created by TSL.

What if for the last Harry Potter novel, Atkinson just resumed the plot after the villain was defeated? Voldomort was too powerful, everyone was dead, and everything was hopeless, so her solution... Just start afresh!
Not comparable. It would be like if they Killed Voldemort in the first novel and the second novel only had honorable mentions of Harry, while you follow a new character around, who defeats a trio of bad wizards, then the third comes out and explains how the two stories are related.

Try making a good ending to such a climatic ending to TSL. If anyone wants to complain, then remember that the TSL ending is bad because they created such an anti-climatic end with TOR. My anger is directed at the ones who decided to begin anew and just leave the climax in limbo indefinitely.

Did you even PLAY TSL? The story end was anti-climatic long before TOR came out. Granted the game was rushed, but the end of that petered out completely. TOR didn't kill the story, TSL did more so than TOR. By not having the main character from the first in there as anything more than an honorable mention, and flinging him off to face psychotically stupid odds in a region of space that he had no idea about.

Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.

It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

I think people are missing the point that DarthJacen was emphasizing. It's not a matter of whether or not they have a good idea or not, but that their idea completely tramples upon the ending of TSL. I don't want a clean slate! I don't want an ending that leaves the KOTOR story stagnant for 300 years! If it takes place 300 years after KOTOR ends, but is not an ending... THAT'S alright with me.

The True Sith were introduced in the second game for the purpose of being used in the third installment. If everyone is so disappointed in the second game, then why are so many for this to come out? Don't forget that the True Sith were introduced in the second game... they were NEVER officially stated in the first.

It doesn't matter how great TOR ever will be because it isn't completely new, but it doesn't properly end the KOTOR series. It is a pathetic attempt by lucasarts to give the game two faces... one new and as a KOTOR continuation.

No, they didn't cheat. They just didn't feel there was a game's worth of content following the god created by TSL.

Then why are they doing TOR at all?

You can't attack TSL and defend TOR at the same time because the climax of the sequel is the reason for what's in development. And no, TSL did not end until TOR came along.

Then why are they doing TOR at all?

Simple answer: they can tie up loose ends while still having a good game with a new possibly better story.

Yes you can tie up loose ends with an MMO. What happened in the unknown regions with Revan and the Exile has not been fully explained. At least not in the FAQ's or the game info. In fact nothing much is stated about them there. This may be something you get to discover as you play the game. There may even be an optional quest line that has you learn much more about the two characters' exploits in the Unknown Regions than a game right after the end of TSL. At this point, it is too early to say they killed the story.

Tie up loose ends? You mean conclude KOTOR... how? By killing off all the characters and extending the conflict for 300 years? The reason why I liked TSL better than the first was because it enriched an already great plot, but this has destroyed all that.

This all comes down to one VERY minor change that makes ALL the difference: set the game to take place in the KOTOR era. There is an entire Galaxy, so there is nothing that restricts the storyline in any way. By killing Revan and the Exile and keeping the same villain for 300 years, I would rather they not touched KOTOR at all. They must either have all or nothing about how the conflict is resolved. I do not want this new plot touching KOTOR in any way unless they make it into the third installment. And everyone knows WHEN that installment should be.

Tie up loose ends? You mean conclude KOTOR... how? By killing off all the characters and extending the conflict for 300 years? The reason why I liked TSL better than the first was because it enriched an already great plot, but this has destroyed all that.
YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT! This did not destroy anything. You are projecting what you believe with VERY little knowledge. They tie up the loose ends of two overly powerful characters that would be impossible to make a game from. YOU HEAR THAT PART, IMPOSSIBLE! You cannot have an RPG that starts out with such a super godly creation as was described in TSL. It made Revan out to be super godly. All knowing and able to eat sith while killing mandalorians by the millions with each swing of his saber. Revan became too powerful(because of TSL) to be let back into the universe. The Exile was so powerful that she could destroy the Force. Those two characters CANNOT be continued.
This all comes down to one VERY minor change that makes ALL the difference: set the game to take place in the KOTOR era. There is an entire Galaxy, so there is nothing that restricts the storyline in any way. By killing Revan and the Exile and keeping the same villain for 300 years, I would rather they not touched KOTOR at all. They must either have all or nothing about how the conflict is resolved. I do not want this new plot touching KOTOR in any way unless they make it into the third installment. And everyone knows WHEN that installment should be.
No, Because after the events of TSL BOTH Revan and The Exile are both removed from the story as far as known space is concerned. Kicked out into fairy dust land. POOF, Gone. That was their grand plan to get rid of the Mary Sue characters. If anything having it set so far away makes it easier to tell what happened. Set right after TSL there would be no way of knowing what happened. Set after the True Sith invasion, you can get the whole story about how they sacrificed their lives to delay the invasion until after the jedi and republic had time to rebuild.

Impossible to resume the story from the end of TSL? Lot's of fan fictions have been resumed from the ashes of TSL and emerged pretty interesting to me. I think my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning. The True Sith staged the Mandalorian wars, knowing that if they were victorious, they would eventually eradicate the True Sith.

This would explain why the Council refused to get involved in the war... because they knew the True Sith were setting themselves up to be destroyed only so that the Jedi would defeat the Mandalorians for them. Remember Canderous saying "the sith would be nothing more than a boarder skirmish"? That's exactly what would have happened if Revan didn't get involved in the first place.

How about another example that KOTOR III is not only possible, but would be the best option? If you had seen Episode three before the Star Wars trilogy, wouldn't it have been the least bit disappointing to have the next plotline happen 300 years later? How could anyone possibly say there is no way for a third KOTOR when there is a perfect example in the Star Wars trilogy and pretrilogy?

I'm not just trying to say the same thing time and time again, but I don't agree with the reasons that have been given for TOR. It is clearly possible that there can be a KOTOR III, but it would just require some effort to come up with a conclusion rather than start anew.

my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning.
Why do you need fan fiction to tell you that?

Remember Canderous saying "the sith would be nothing more than a boarder skirmish"? That's exactly what would have happened if Revan didn't get involved in the first place.
No, it isn't what would have happened. I think Canderous has read too many Karen Travesty novels.

Impossible to resume the story from the end of TSL? Lot's of fan fictions have been resumed from the ashes of TSL and emerged pretty interesting to me. I think my favorite one was that the Council were right from the beginning. The True Sith staged the Mandalorian wars, knowing that if they were victorious, they would eventually eradicate the True Sith.

That's a fan fiction though. Pure speculation and wishful thinking on the part of the writer.

How about another example that KOTOR III is not only possible, but would be the best option? If you had seen Episode three before the Star Wars trilogy, wouldn't it have been the least bit disappointing to have the next plotline happen 300 years later?

'If you had seen' it before doesn't matter. The Original Trilogy was made before the prequels - which where then made to explain how things came to be. The prequels wouldn't exist if the Original trilogy didn't.

How could anyone possibly say there is no way for a third KOTOR when there is a perfect example in the Star Wars trilogy and pretrilogy?

Because it's not a perfect example.

I'm not just trying to say the same thing time and time again, but I don't agree with the reasons that have been given for TOR.

As I said before, Lucasarts doesn't care. They don't owe us a KOTORIII, just like they don't owe us a JK4.

No, it isn't what would have happened. I think Canderous has read too many Karen Travesty novels.

Unfortunately, too many people have.

That's a fan fiction though. Pure speculation and wishful thinking on the part of the writer.
More like "badly-written self-insertion fantasy fulfillment wishfully-speculative thinking" (much like the stuff KT writes, come to think of it, but not official).

Read.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1749933/19/Shattered_Knight)

This is not just some cheap piece of work... the quality of this is remarkable. It predates TSL, but it is an example of the many possible options that could be done for KOTOR III. The point is that it is not only possible, but probable that you can have a decent conclusion that doesn't involve erasing everything and starting anew 300 years later.

The point is that at the end of TSL, you're left thinking the Council were the villains, but it would have been astounding to realize that they were right from the beginning and that Revan was, in fact, not the godlike Jedi TSL made him out to be... given that he did exactly what the True Sith wanted from the start.

And to Astor_Kaine... unless you have a reason to say otherwise, don't just contradict what I say. The ending to the pretrilogy is an excellent example because it is chronologically ordered so that episode three PRECEEDS episode four. The plot is virtually the same as is for the ending of KOTOR. The Jedi are crippled and struggle to survive while an enemy has become more powerful than ever. If the original trilogy was not liked, then that's something to argue with.

This is not just some cheap piece of work... the quality of this is remarkable. It predates TSL, but it is an example of the many possible options that could be done for KOTOR III. The point is that it is not only possible, but probable that you can have a decent conclusion that doesn't involve erasing everything and starting anew 300 years later.

Just because there is the possibility doesn't mean there should be a KOTORIII. Again, they don't owe us a KOTORIII.

And to Astor_Kaine... unless you have a reason to say otherwise, don't just contradict what I say.

I do have a reason, thank you. Do you?

The ending to the pretrilogy is an excellent example because it is chronologically ordered so that episode three PRECEEDS episode four.

That is the general meaning of a prequel, yes.

My entire point is that your example is wrong. The prequels only exist because they were made to answer the questions raised in the Original Trilogy.

The Star Wars prequels were pre-destined to lead up to the Original Trilogy, which I why I disagreed with your example - it's not a very good one.

Again, sorry that you can't play your mighty man god jesus thor savior super saiyan Jedis.

Your argument would have plenty of feet if this was set 30 years after or so.

This is 300. Ok, please let that sink in for once.

Three hundred years.

Ok, now imagine that maybe Revan and Exile DID in fact do SOMETHING to the True Sith. After all, they did not attack til THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.


It absolutely is not. At all.

King Arthur and the Knights make it to the end of Monty Python. Then a sequel is made 5 years later, and you play as a new King, but with mostly the same knights. At the end, you hear King Arthur might be off doing something and you'll go help him.

Then 300 years later, Hitler Germany invades and takes over Europe.

Not the greatest example, but you get my point. It has been 300 years.

This Sith invasion is just another invasion the Republic faces in its like, 15,000 year lifespan.

The Sith are attacking again, and this time they pretty much won. This doesn't even have to be Revan's True Sith. It doesn't have to be Exile's True Sith. For all we know, they made a truce or something with them for 300 years, then some new Sith Lord comes around and breaks it.

300 years. Thats the difference between America being a bunch of huts and small houses, and present day.

300 years.

That is 100 years, 3 times.

That is roughly how old our America is.

Thats longer than 50 years ago. Before World War 1 and 2!

Thats 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

Revan and Exile probably didn't make it past 100 years.

A lot happens in 200 more years!


Guess what?

http://www.alexandgregory.com/images/darth%20sidious%205325.jpg)

You lose in 3,500 years anyway.

Everything that they do in the old Republic is pointless, because we already know the Republic and Jedi both get wiped out by Sidious.

There, story over.

C'mon. Thats like saying Call of Duty is pointless to play because we already know Hitler is going to lose. Or saying that researching about Napoleon is pointless because we already know Barack Obama will be elected.


Except, that the Sith Emperor, here, is one thousand years old, I don't think there is a hovercraft built, yet for that kind of age. He must have some serious health issues. Not to mention the cat naps and senility. Anyway, my point is that the Emperor was alive when Revan first showed up with Malak to learn the sith ways. And, he was around when the Exile met with Revan. He wasn't kill by either of them working together. I can only assume that Revan and the Exile were slaughtered once they trespassed on Sith soil. They would have put up one heck of a fight, no doubt about it. They may have even wounded the Emperor in the battle, but the Emperor survives and emerges unscathed, when Revan and the Exile do not. How is that not anticlimactic?

We were all expecting the good guys to triumph over evil. The stage was set for a ROTJ finish, but it ended like TPM with this sense that we won the battle but could still lose the war.

I suppose I was hoping that enough people would display their discontent for the plot's timeline that Lucasarts would be forced to change it. It may seem like a vague hope, but if enough people made it clear that they wouldn't buy TOR unless the timeline were changed, Lucasarts would have to do it. Of those who voted here, more were disappointed than those who were neutral or against it being 300 years later.

Besides, I like reading the inciteful comments left behind by others.

Well, the comments in this thread certainly has incited a great deal of activity.... ;P

LA isn't going to change it. Bioware is already well into the development, and the TOR forum at bioware.com has a few thousand people going absolutely gaga over this project. The few people here who express discontent aren't going to outweigh the huge number of people over at Bioware and a lot of other places (including here) who are already going nuts waiting for the game to come out.

I do have a reason, thank you. Do you?

The Star Wars prequels were pre-destined to lead up to the Original Trilogy, which I why I disagreed with your example - it's not a very good one.

That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans. That's why they're giving something that vaguely touches upon an ending for KOTOR... that way, they could leave open the possibility of a K3 if this goes under. If this came AFTER K3 were finished and released, then it would no longer have a base of fans to rely on.

I still stand by my example because it doesn't really matter what order they were released in real life. The first three ultimately lead to the last three chronologically. The story is the same no matter what order they were released... if you want to say that you hated Episode Three and ultimately hated how they transitioned to the original trilogy, then that's something I can't argue with.

If you're saying that because Episode three was ultimately a terrible movie, then you can say the same thing would happen with any K3 conclusion. Just dismissing my example on a mere technicality doesn't really apply because any K3 would be the same as an episode three.

------------

Anyway, I already said it once, but since it is not doing anything other than expressing discontent, I should just leave this thread to its demise.

Except, that the Sith Emperor, here, is one thousand years old, I don't think there is a hovercraft built, yet for that kind of age. He must have some serious health issues. Not to mention the cat naps and senility. Anyway, my point is that the Emperor was alive when Revan first showed up with Malak to learn the sith ways. And, he was around when the Exile met with Revan. He wasn't kill by either of them working together. I can only assume that Revan and the Exile were slaughtered once they trespassed on Sith soil. They would have put up one heck of a fight, no doubt about it. They may have even wounded the Emperor in the battle, but the Emperor survives and emerges unscathed, when Revan and the Exile do not. How is that not anticlimactic?
Since when does it have to be climatic anyway? I'd take that over the average fan's idea of how it should go, if for no other reason than the fact that it would be a breath of fresh air.

We were all expecting the good guys to triumph over evil.
I'm sick of the good guys winning every single freaking game. I'd like some variation. At least have them win in a different way.

Well, the comments in this thread certainly has incited a great deal of activity.... ;P

LA isn't going to change it. Bioware is already well into the development, and the TOR forum at bioware.com has a few thousand people going absolutely gaga over this project. The few people here who express discontent aren't going to outweigh the huge number of people over at Bioware and a lot of other places (including here) who are already going nuts waiting for the game to come out.
While your logic is sound, what relevance does that hold? Nobody here is pretending that they can change the situation.

That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans.

It's a business--making as much money as possible in business is to be expected.