Unless there isn't a monthly fee. *crosses fingers*

There will be. You'd better pray damn hard for some divine intervention, and even then it'd probably still happen.

"The Wait Is Over" means the Wait is Over. It doesn't specifically say K3 or Revan on the cover.

And, from experience with multiple MMOs, an MMO is here to stay for a long time. They wouldn't spend years working on something so large only to use it as a pacifier for the real treat.

If you don't believe me, ask the people that are still waiting for Warcraft IV.

name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."

name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."
"Significant number" is relative. While people were waiting for both games, I don't think we have an actual statistic showing the majority wanted K3.

And, as has already been stated, what make this MMO not part of the continuity? Sure, it is set 300 years after, but it is promised to have a story and I'll trust Bioware on that for now. If they can pull it off Guild Wars style, what you will basically be playing is a very, very, large and multiplayer single player RPG.

And it is set 4000-3500 years before. We all knew Revan and Exile were eventually going to die, and we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive. Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time and considering Revan was some super powered Sith Lord and Exile is not -technically- alive, who is to say they are completely gone?

You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.

You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.

i think most of us knew that, we just weren't waiting in anticipation...dread maybe...lol

Just based on some of the things in the Sith Empire descriptions, I've got what will likely be a common theory as to the identity of this shady Emperor...who knows, lol.

*Snipped* Both BioWare and LA said the reason for making K3 an MMO is that:

http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/star-wars-the-old-republic-mmo-to-replace-kotor-3/)

I like the Idea of leaving the mystery of what happened...? unsolved(for the most part.)

I would like to clarify something for everyone to ensure that they get something straight:

TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.

If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.In your opinion.

It will never be the same, but it is something that we have to live with.

The setting of the MMO is fine, but only fine for separating itself from the previous too games. It's far too far down the road to be a conclusive ending to the trilogy. I mean, would Return of the Jedi or Revenge of the Sith have felt like it concluded the Clone Wars or the falle of the Empire if the movie was set 300 years after Empire Strikes Back or Attack of the Clones?


The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.

TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.
The climactic end is that they both went into the unknown and we know not what happened.

Really, the climactic end is that 3500 years later a Sith Lord puts the final bullet into the head of both the Jedi and the Republic. Even when Luke tried to put them back together, neither have recovered well. So, really, all of this is for naught as we already know what happens.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.
It wasn't for another like, 23 years right? The hero fell to the Dark Side, killed or attempted to kill everyone he loved, and then ruled the Galaxy with an iron fist for 20 something years until his son came along and turns him back before he dies.

Star Wars is known for redemption, but not so much for a happy road along the way. Revan and Exile are Mary Sue characters, and after how godly the lore made both of them out to be its almost a releif to see that they both have/had weaknesses.

But, again, we still do not know what happened to them. Revan was apparently incredibly powerful and knew a lot of extinct teachings. Exile is -technically- not alive, and is more of a moving hole in the Force that eats off of what is around her. Outside of time, I don't see a whole lot of reason as to why they are both not still out there in some way.

Except, everyone has to die somehow. We cannot follow every year of these people's lives to the book, and even a shorter time skip would just have us playing one of them, or another god like Jedi character. Although the storytelling is fantastic, the Old Republican is slowly filling with too many characters with plot armor.

If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.
Directly after TSL the Republic is still on the brink of total collapse and the Jedi are extinct. Its going to take at least 100 years before the Jedi are a force to be reckoned with again, and the Republic is recovering from a Galaxy wide depression and a Military that just went through almost 4 wars in a row.

It got 300 years to recover and then was mauled once again by Sith, this time making all the way to Coruscant. Now we have a cold war on our hands, which is a great way to put a world together in my book. (See, World of Warcraft)

Just my 2cents.

The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.
Agreed. 300 years is a long time, and LA has proven already that they like to fill every single second of their universe up.

In your opinion.

In many people's opinions I believe.

And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)

we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive.
No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.

Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time
Yeah? Like who?

In your opinion.
It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?
It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)
yes, I AM glad they're dead.

yes, I AM glad they're dead.
I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Atton, Bastila, Carth, and any other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) officially has no imagination.

It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.


Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.


yes, I AM glad they're dead.

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.

My biggest gripes with KotOR were that they weren't long enough. I wanted more. The first was complete, but just a bit too short. TSL was incomplete and short. That is the advantage of the MMO. It is able to have a huge long lasting story. Far greater than could be squished onto a single DVD. I mean I really wanted to explore the worlds. I wanted to wander around and see what all else there was. Instead I had barricades that could not be crossed. The tombs were tiny(for the most part). City planets that you only see tiny fractions of. When you have terabytes of storage, you can have a huge game. I don't like buying a bunch of games. I'd rather buy one that I can play for a long time. So in essence, I'm saying that yes I wanted TOR instead of KotORIII

They finished the story lines. They disposed of the main characters. If Revan had been in the second game as the antagonist or protagonist, I can see how you could draw the parallel to the films. but a cameo appearance and mentioning him going off to fight the true Sith, basically sealed his fate. If Vader or Luke had not been in Empire would a third movie have been made?

edit: Oh and I'm glad they are dead too.

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
*Snipped* What matters is whether he's right or not, not how many of him there are. Do you seriously suggest that your opinion outranks his just because there's more of you than him?

While I appreciate the thought, backseat moderating is not needed. In the future, please use the Report function.

~T_A

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
You have already been informed of your flaming and disregard for the opinions of others. You have been given 1 Infraction. If you continue to act in this behavior, harsher action will be taken. Any questions can be directed at me via the Private Message system.

If you, or anyone else would like to see the rules then please visit these two links:
Forum Rules: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=193186)
Infractions: http://www.lucasforums.com/faq.php?faq=lf_faq#faq_lf_faq_infractions)

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly? I know this is not a question for me; however, I will give you a good reason why 300 is better. Hidden in the tombs and characters on Korriban and Dantooine you learn about the past. We searched through tombs and consoles to learn about the older Jedi and Sith generations. Knights of the Old Republic opened this new stretch of Star Wars history. Making a third game anywhere close to the events of The Sith Lords would be completely repetitive. We already know about the past; thus, there would be nothing new to learn. Exploring the tombs and archives deep into the future will recapture the essence of Knights 1. Why? There will be newer stories to tell, and a good 300 years of history to catch up with. Revan and Exile are now legends. Questions The Old Republic will answer may include - What happened to Revan and Exile? - What happened when Revan confronted the Sith Emporer? - Did Revan and Exile get together? - Did Revan and Exile clash in combat? - What happened to the world around them? Starting a game right after they left will give you nothing new. There is no more history to learn. We now have 300 years of history to shift through. We may learn about the rise and fall of new Sith Lords.

Knights 1 provided us with a fully functional Dantooine and Korriban. Knights II provided us with the Jedi Civil War aftermath; thus, Dantooine and Korriban were in a complete mess. There was no more mysteries to solve on these planets. Homes to the Sith and Jedi were completely wipped out. Putting the game 300 years into the future will return us to grave robbing, artifact finding, and many other elements made famous in Knights 1.

Knights 2 left some unanswered questions; however, you don't really learn anything epic about Sith and Jedi history. Go back to those feeling you had during Knights 1. You searched all these tombs and mysterious locations. Everything felt very large and epic. You felt as though you really belonged to something. Knights 2 was not an expansion of anything epic; therefore, you only learn about the fate of only a few historical players. We have more history to explore on both sides. Exploring rebuilt or never before seen tombs on Korriban is awsome.

My only problem is - Should this have been a single player game? I'm all open to the 300 years of history to learn and explore; however, I'm not too thrilled about a multiplayer game. I haven't made up my mind. I also don't have any experience in playing a MMORPG; thus, there is something for me to gain from this experience.

No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.
HK-47 is "alive" and well, and I bet T3 is as well.

I'm saying the possibility is there. Currently we do not know, do we? This is all speculation on our part. Consider we had a Sith that can devour an entire planet, a Sith that tried to kill the Force, and a Forge that can make an infinite army by feeding off a Sun and a Sith, I'd say that the Old Republic story is pretty open for absurd things happening.

Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Darth Sion kept going by holding himself together with the Force. Nihilus/Exile are basically walking natural disasters instead of people. Exar locked his spirit away in a temple and stayed there for 4,000 years.

Not saying they -are-. I'm saying that with all that has happened and how Mary Sue these two characters are, its up for speculation as to if they are still around or not in my personal opinion.

I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Bastila, Carth, or other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) has no imagination.
Well, you can go talk to Avelone first for making Revan always win with the TSL story. Other than that, the story and sacrifices were pretty player specific.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL.

Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL. :heart3: Everything is new again. Playing a game 10 years after Revan and Exile's departure will give us nothing new. 300 years of new history is a pretty nice way to start fresh. Those screenshots make The Old Republic feel epic again.

IMO you really can't compare the two in terms of gameplay or story progression. At least the franchise as a whole continues, and we get a delicious MMO to occupy our time until the next proper KotOR game comes.

No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.

Carbon Freeze....

also, if you read the entry on the Sith Empire, it mentions that the Sith Emperor has been keeping himself alive apparently since the time of Revan/Exile through Sith magics.

plenty of ways to live longer in SW, heck just being a Force user increases your natural life expectancy a few decades...

Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.

Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.
Yeah, agreed. It would still be a punch in the face if it happened, and I wouldn't put it past them to do it either.

Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.

amen

on that note, who wants to place bets as to the identity of the as-yet-unnamed Sith Emperor? XD

The only one that we KNOW survives the events of TSL is HK. He somehow found his way to Mustafart where his "mind" was trapped in an old republic ship.

I kinda wish they would have set it only 500bby. That way it leaves thousands of years of history to discover. hehe we might even see the Millenium Falcon new(joke on how old the 1300 is).

Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.
Lets break down "Knights of the Old Republic"

The "Old Republic" refers to everything up until the formation of the Empire, the Fall of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic. Therefore, technically, Anakin and Mace were Jedi Knights of the old republic. In our specific context, the "old republic" is the republic 3000-4000 years before "current events".

So if you are a Jedi or Sith knight during the times of the old republic, then you are a "knight of the old republic". While this may not fit the feel of the game, the name itsself is techically correct in application.

Different from what we're used to? Sure it is. Unfitting? not really.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.
True, they have not, but lets face it, a LOT of content was cut from K2, and that's like making a sequel to a movie that didn't have a conclusion to it's own events. It really doesn't work. Because of the cuts to K2, it really killed the ability of K3 to exist without massive repairs to the K2 storyline.


No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.
No, there are a few who agree with me. The majority? I don't claim that. You asked/stated that no KOTOR fan would want the Exile and Revan dead, I stated, as a KOTOR fan, that I am glad they are dead. I merely stated my opinion of their state of being because you offered up the challenge.

edit: man my writing has been shoddy of late.

I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

As for a MMO, I'll have to wait and see how they do it before I judge it. I personnally prefer to play games with great stories. I like reading, and games are like an interactive novel to me. We just need to hear more info...

I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

except that the prime story plot, the emergence of the True Sith and their empire, is nothing less than a continuance of what began in the KOTOR series (K1, K2, and the comics). The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

Hopefully the comic or a novel sheds some light on what happened in the Unknown Regions, both before and after the Jedi Civil War.

The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.

that's what I'm saying though. Revan, the Exile: they ARE the main protagonists, and they've been swept off the board almost as if they were never there. I can see not talking much about, say, Mission and Zaalbar. But what about Admiral Carth Onasi? Canderous Ordo, now Mandalore the Preserver? What about Atton Rand and the other turned-Jedi companions of the Exile who had to rebuild the Jedi Order basically from scratch? Where's Bastila, one of few, if any, original Jedi who survived besides the Exile and Revan?

All I'm saying is that key historical events and figures seem to have been utterly forgotten. Hell, there's not even any mention of what Revan or the Exile even did in the Unknown Regions.

Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

TOR is the killing blow to the Kotor franchise, turning any game in an mmo is the fastest way to ruin it.

A few days ago, I would have whole-heartedly agreed. But BioWare have been clear that this will not be a standard MMO. If they manage to implement half of what they promise, it may be worthwhile.

I think in the long run it will depend on the attitudes of those playing. If people set out to ruin it for us, the MMO will, likely, be awful. If everyone plays it properly, who knows?

Ya know the thing is, Revan. One man going against the True Sith in the unknown regions. Sounds like he was asking for death. The exile heading off after Revan, she should have expected the same fate. Two against an army of True Sith, worlds of True Sith. How would you expect them to survive? Why would you expect them to survive?

Really you can thank Avelone for sealing Revan's fate. Of course we might actually get more of their fate in the MMO. Not all great heroes have the greatest of fates. Need I remind people of the swirling destiny story? That Revan also had swirling destiny.... Perhaps he's clogging an injector right now. Well... not now, but perhaps his destiny was to simply delay the inevitable. Dunno, I intend to seek out his story in the MMO. Some took part in the greatest deeds of their lives at the time we played the games. I mean Bastila's greatest accomplishment might have been aiding in the destruction of the Star Forge. Revan and the Exile may have more history, but that history will be what we discover after 300 years.

Like Patton, while we may have his biography, most people only remember him for what he did in WWII. Like our founding fathers(of the US) many of them were imprisoned or executed(I think 9 imprisoned 5 executed, or something like that). Nobody cares about what happens to the heroes after they are done being heroes. Well not about the mundane tasks they did after their great accomplishment.

That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.

In all honesty, no, it's not a good name. But the idea behind the game itself is satisfactory to me, at least.

It's still in the old republic, so why shouldn't it be considered the old republic?

Anyway, I'd have loved K3 to come out, but this just let's writers like me broaden the story plot. ;) so it's not all bad for me. Personally, I think leaving a cliffhanger like it did was probably the most successful cliffhanger I've ever seen. Some are terribly done, some give too much away. It was nice and ambiguous and mysterious.

TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR.

TOR won't have the same atmosphere as KOTOR, but it's still based in the old republic era, and I loved the themes and such in that era. If I can afford it, I'm definitely buying... I can live with no third KOTOR. I don't know about that. Some of those screenshots look very KotORish. BioWare still needs to work on the game; thus, the game elements may move closer to the original.

Look at the clothes closely (http://www.swtor.com/media/screens/force-choke). They look similar to those in KotOR 1; however, the fashion trend was slightly modernized.

That was the whole reason the climax after TSL was so intense. We were wondering how these two were going up against impossible odds and expect to win. By giving the Republic 300 years to prepare for the True Sith, it turns impossible odds into a humiliating defeat for the Republic, Revan, and the Exile.

By skipping all the story that took place right after KOTOR, then the resolution to the climax just never happened. They killed the story by not resolving the events after TSL with a brilliant resolution. It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.


TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.


TSL? Nah...

And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3. I asked for a link showing that LA said they were going to make K3 in the first place. You didn't provide one. But let's move on.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?I doubt I can convince you, but for anyone else who is interested, here is my take. Get a coffee. :)

Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

300 years later makes even more sense for the story, IMO. Everyone's personal KOTOR story is either slightly or greatly different from everyone elses'. Are Revan and the Exile male or female? Good or evil? Those simple questions have great consequences for what happens in the game. Carth and Mission may already be dead. Hell, I didn't train any of the Exile's followers to be Jedi. Other players trained all of them. For a game that will at its core a shared experience, how can we have a consistent story that lines up with each player's version? You can't. The only real option in that case is to just pick canon and move from there. But then you are deviating from 80% of what players have experienced previously. So really, what's the point of trying to complete a story that most people didn't have in the first place? Plus, new players that have never played aren't going to care anyway.

Another thing I've always argued around here is that it isn't Revan and the Exile the man (or woman) that is important, but their actions and the results of them. Those results are relevant far into the future (say, 300 years? It's a very short timespan in the SW universe, and even well within the lifespans of some species), and not just at the time. The universe players will play in will be that way in part because of what those characters did 300 years previously, but it also allows enough time to have passed so that the details that are dependent on the player can be glossed over. So you can have a game that relates well with the previous games without stepping in its toes.

Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)For starters, how do we know they failed? Secondly, majority or minority doesn't really matter. There have been several polls around here over the years asking if people want to play as Revan, the Exile or some one new, and whether they should continue the story or have something new. The opinions varied greatly. All I'm saying is that many people want many different things from the series.

It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.Of course!

Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.But we don't know that. We don't have the story yet! All may be answered yet. We'll have to wait and see.

No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.No he isn't. I feel the same way. And aren't you a pot calling a kettle black here?

It is THAT which is why fans want KOTOR III, not just a clean slate that skips it all.Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

How long did it take you to write that?


Originally Posted by Prime
Some fans. Not all fans. If K3 was a SRPG, I'd want a clean slate with a new character then too.

As would I.

I really like the idea of having K3 be an MMO(of course I cried for 1/2 days because their
would have been great potential in in seeing what Revan and the exile did.) But now thta i've read the story info available, the videos, the interviews, and the IGN exclusive's I've really come to accept this as the game I've been waiting for since I threw Kreia into the Core of Malachor V.

TSL and Obsidian killed the story, imo.

And who actually states that Revan went out there to fight the sith and not join them? Hmm? And who says the Exile followed Revan to join him and not to kill him? Hmm. *nods*

That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

I would have liked OE to have been given K3, but 9it does make since to have it come full circle and let the guys who made the first game make the third final one.

That would be incorrect. TSL established the climax and Obsidian wasn't given the TOR project, it was Bioware. So in reality, Bioware killed the Sith Lords' climax with their abomination.

Did someone give you an advance copy of the TOR script? I'd love to know how you know without a doubt that the Sith Lords' climax has been killed by Bioware.

Having the game take place 300 years after KOTOR is a good idea and necessary from both a story and gameplay perspective. On the gameplay side, it allows the freedom for all players to be either a Jedi or a Sith (since let's face it that is what everyone is going to be). The problem with the time frame immediately after TSL is that there is only one Jedi left and a handful of newbies, which doesn't really leave room for 10,000+ Jedi to be running around every corner. Similarly the Sith have declined and the Triumvirate are destroyed, which also doesn't leave much room for the numbers of Sith we are going to be seeing on the servers.

That timeframe is, well, limiting. Moving the time frame ahead opens up all the options to players. Most players aren't going to know each other, and with the game <25 years after TSL that wouldn't really make any sense since all Jedi will have to be trained by the Exile and Co, and they simply couldn't have trained that many Jedi in that amount of time. Moving the game 300 years ahead allows for the option of multiple enclaves (player cities?) with many masters and apprentices. Then you can have the option of cool subgroups like the Covenant from the comics, etc. Players want gameplay options, and the timeframe immediately after TSL is limiting, if you are going to stay true to the story.

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Not knowing every detail about Revan and Co. in no way implies that they failed. Perhaps they were able to stop the imminent threat and prevent the its assault on the Republic at a time when it was at is most vulnerable. Yes, the Sith may have returned at a later time, but that doesn't diminish the possible victory previously. That would be like saying WW1 was a failure because WW2 happened. The point is that having a story 300 years after the games neither lessens or limits Revan's accomplishments, whatever they might be and for whatever reasons.


How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL.

WWII was the result of WWI and could have been prevented if the "peace w/out victory" had been followed completely, or Germany had been obliterated at the end of WWI. Because WWI wasn't properly concluded, it caused another war that was even worse than the first.

I don't know that LA indicated they were making K3, thus the request for a link. My understanding was that you claimed previously that LA essentially misled people by not developing K3.

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

Lets see, before the announcement "The Wait is Over" was released, we had enough slips that the MMO project was the project that LA and Bioware were working on. The announcement was the end of the waiting for the worst kept secret in the gaming industry to be announced:D Nowhere did LA or Bioware state explicitly that they were working on KotOR III. Bioware and LA had however stated on numerous occasions that they were not working on KotOR 3. That implies that they were not misleading you, or the fan base. Now if they had somewhere stated that they weer working on KotOR 3 you might have some semblance of a leg to stand on. If anything you misled yourself.

I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.

I feel I have been very patient with you, Darth_Yuthura.

- I gave you a kind reminder to calm down. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2542527&postcount=37)
- I gave you a warning to cease hostile actions towards others. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2542563&postcount=42)
- I Infracted you once already for Offensive behavior. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2543052&postcount=67)

You have outright ignored and pushed aside not only my warning and infraction, but the opinions of other members of this forum in favor of your own.

Please take a week to cool off. I look forward to posting with you again once you have collected your thoughts.

How exactly does that make the story more dramatic if the Jedi and the Republic are allowed to have the time to rebuild? Do you know why the Battle of Thermopolea is "300 against 1,000,000" instead of history's version of "4500 against 100,000-200,000"? Which would you think is more dramatic? Most people use the 300 Spartans.Would you be surprised to learn that not once did I consider the numbers to be in any way relevant in how I viewed the ending of TSL? But then again, I think the importance of Revan to TSL is often overstated and it is more a journey of self discovery for the Exile, and much of the info about Revan can be bypassed if the player so chooses. Again, it is the actions and consequences of Revan that matter, not so much the man.

TOR kills the climax by evening the odds and making it much less dramatic by having 10,000 Jedi and a healed Republic doing the impossible than for a few Jedi and a crippled Republic struggling to survive. 300 years kills all the drama and suspense of TSL. I think that is a huge overstatement. Are you saying that the drama and suspense as a result of the culmination of journey of the Exile and the confrontation with the Sith Lords are all of a sudden destroyed because some unknown arbitrary numbers were changed?

"The wait is over." I guess that it wasn't explicit, but a reasonable deduction could be made that it was directed at fans waiting for KOTOR III. I know that you had to be aware of that because you're a smart guy and could figure that out.The statement was true regardless how how you look at it, really. If you were waiting for confirmation of the KOTOR MMO rumors, you got that. If you were waiting for the announcement regarding the future of the KOTOR franchise, you got that.

Saying you were misled because you didn't get specifically what you wanted is not their fault. I'd like a SRPG for K3 too, but in no way did LA ever say they were ever going to do that, where as everything that was leaked for the past year pointed to an MMO. Acting surprised when it actually happens just seems a bit silly.