I don't know if this has ever been discussed before, but there's a quest on Manaan, which is really well done imo, because there is no simple LS / DS way to solve it. It's a question about morality.

So what did you do with Sunry? Did you help him out of his misery, despite the fact that he IS guilty? Did you tell the truth, which results in his execution? Or did you make sure he got lifelong imprisonment instead of capital punishment?

I'm really curious...it's probably the only quest in both Kotor games where I don't know instantly what I would do. :)

well there are 3 choices you can get him exicuted, a life sentence, and you can get him released. i have done all 3

I know, but what would you yourself have done in Revan's situation?

Since my Revan is a Male DarkSider...and that I do Mannan as the third planet before meeting up with Darth Malak on the Leviviatan...

I interpret that Revan would fall to the DS, but as a Dark Jedi, and only to help out the Republic and its interest. [Think of it as Atris' falling, and also due to Revan's dark taint, which Revan does not know of] (Only when he learnt that Revan is actually Revan, then Revan would actually betray the Republic and take up his legacy). So, I would protect Sunry.

In the game, I failed to gain enough evidence. I just needed to have the hotel manager testify but I forgot to get Dominate Mind. So I was stuck with "Life-Time Imprisonment". Jolee states that in the future, Sunry would get aquitted...but then again, since I'm leader of the Sith Empire, I don't know if I would have attacked and destroyed Mannan during that time...

For the canonical Revan? Haven't fully played as him yet, but I'd guess I would refuse to defend Sunry, get forced by Sunry to defend him, defend him succesfully, get Sunry aquitted, and then cry myself to sleep.

If I was Revan? I would tattle on Sunry and get that man killed off. If the Republic is that willing to do whatever it takes to win, then the Republic does not deserve to exist. It is just as Dark Sided as the Sith.

I got him declared innocent (even though he wasn't, but neither were the Sith) and released, but mostly to annoy the Selkath, not to help out the Republic or Sunry himself. I also felt a bit sorry for his wife, even though he cheated on her.

There is no Justice to be had on Manaan anyway, only Law, as Jolee comments afterwards. :) Annoying Police State with few redeeming qualities.

stoffe, I don't really think the Selkatah run a police state. I think they were the equviliant of what we know as the Republic of Switzerland. They wanted to be netural, because they realize that if they side with one faction or another, then both sides will blow the planet up. The Selkath would be fine if Sunry killed the Sith spy outside of Mannan's territory, but since it happened over on its territory, it has to walk a fine line to make sure that the Sith and the Jedi don't start slaughtering Selkath and burning the entire planet.

It is much more interesting than having a planet that allies with one side totally or another. And due to my comparison with the Republic of Switzerland, I would not be suprised if the Skeltah vote in elections, and therefore, they would be a democracy, not a police state.

stoffe, I don't really think the Selkatah run a police state.

Open to debate since there probably isn't much evidence one way or the other in the game.

However the abundance of guards with instakill blasters, those surveillance drones they have floating about everywhere, and the fact they even have spy monitors in the Embassies of foreign powers (and shamelessly admit as much), strict control about who's allowed to leave and enter Ahto, them keeping prisoners in cages not large enough to even sit down and their happiness to deal out death penalties gives me more the impression of a tightly controlled Police State than anything else. The whole lot of them being xenophobes doesn't exactly help their case (though that seems to be more norm than exception with many races in Star Wars it seems). :)

I've done all three. The last time I played the trial I tried to help but he still went to jail for a life sentence.

However the abundance of guards with instakill blasters, those surveillance drones they have floating about everywhere, and the fact they even have spy monitors in the Embassies of foreign powers (and shamelessly admit as much), strict control about who's allowed to leave and enter Ahto, them keeping prisoners in cages not large enough to even sit down and their happiness to deal out death penalties gives me more the impression of a tightly controlled Police State than anything else. The whole lot of them being xenophobes doesn't exactly help their case (though that seems to be more norm than exception with many races in Star Wars it seems). :)
Major QFE! Those darn Selkath dictators! :xp:

For my games, whether I'm LS or DS, Sunry is guilty but mine always let the Republic try to free him.

If I was Revan and was in the same position that he was in the game, I would probably let Sunry go free, even finding out that he actually killed her.

The whole thing of getting DS points for letting him go if you know he's guilty is kind of silly. I mean, how many Sith had Revan killed and would kill after he left Manaan? Killing a Sith is not a Dark Side act.

The whole thing of getting DS points for letting him go if you know he's guilty is kind of silly. I mean, how many Sith had Revan killed and would kill after he left Manaan? Killing a Sith is not a Dark Side act.

But he BROKE the law. Not only that, but he cheated on his wife, and also hid his actions, and then tried to frame the Sith for framing him. Sunry is indeed a DS murderer, and should have killed the Sith outside of Mannan, where it is legal to kill Sith, rather than inside of Mannan.

I've tried (no pun initially intended) all the options, but most often have cleared him.

Gotta throw my lot in w/Stoffe and RH. Besides, the fish WERE supremely annoying.

Killing a sith wasn't intrisically DS, but the manner in which it was done in Sunry's case (it was premeditated, even if he somewhat regretted killing her) is the cause of the dark points. You help him break the law, despite his obvious guilt. Technically, that would make you an accessory after the fact.

But he BROKE the law. Not only that, but he cheated on his wife, and also hid his actions, and then tried to frame the Sith for framing him. Sunry is indeed a DS murderer, and should have killed the Sith outside of Mannan, where it is legal to kill Sith, rather than inside of Mannan.

I don't think the Force concerns itself with the sentient-made laws on the vast variety of planets in the galaxy. Nor does it care about the affiliation or organization membership of someone who's being killed (to make it "legal").

It's more a matter of how the killing was done, not who was killed. He didn't kill her in battle, he didn't defend himself from attack; he shot her in the back while she was there with non-violent intent. Killing in self-defense isn't a Darkside act by Force morality, but what Sunry did was not self-defense. It was planned murder, no matter if the victim was a Sith Lord or a saint.

Still, you can get Sunry free at the trial without getting any Darkside points. My paragon lightsider character got through the whole game without getting a single DS point, and she got Sunry free.

What do you need to get Sunry free? I always get Gluupor, that's easy, and I know about the hotel manager, but I'm usually unable to convince him (ie my persuade score is too low, I don't have dominate mind, and don't like to bribe people). Aside from him, what do you need to do. Does whether or not you know the truth affect the outcome?


I usually end up doing my best, which ends up with him getting life.

I really don't like the Selkath. They're very arrogant, they're not very intelligent or rational, and they are extremely intolerant, but their biggest complaints are about how irrational and stupid outsiders and humans are.

well it seems that all the time i get him killed or sent to have a life time in jail

What do you need to get Sunry free? I always get Gluupor, that's easy, and I know about the hotel manager, but I'm usually unable to convince him (ie my persuade score is too low, I don't have dominate mind, and don't like to bribe people). Aside from him, what do you need to do. Does whether or not you know the truth affect the outcome?

If you know the truth, you can just hand the footage over to the Skeltah during the trial to kill him.

Actually, you need to persuade the Hotel Manager in order to make your cause better. You have no choice in the manner. You have to have high persuasion, Dominate Mind, or a willingness to bribe. So, just bite the bullet. You could, you know, go somewhere else, level up, and then come back later with Dominate Mind. Or just part with your credits, you get no DS points if you bribe people.

What I do, is find the evidence against him, and then show it to the judges, so he DIES.... Mwhahahahahaha.... :D really though, he is a cold blooded killer, and should be executed like one...

The whole thing of getting DS points for letting him go if you know he's guilty is kind of silly. I mean, how many Sith had Revan killed and would kill after he left Manaan? Killing a Sith is not a Dark Side act.

When you kill Sith, they are facing you with intent to kill you, and are armed. Also, you do not try to hide what you do. Sunry shot Elassa in the back, and then didn't own up. That's almost the exact opposite of the way Revan works through most of the game. Getting Sunry off really is DS. LS characters want to see justice served above the politics of the Republic or Sith.

Actually, weren't the DS points for trying to use the force to get Sunry to confess?

I was basically his executioner.

I always went with getting him off scott free since it would have been best for the repuplic i.e. no reducion of kolto supplies, I think thats how a LS revan would be. Sometime you have to do a 'dark side' act for the greater good.

Were I in Revan's postion, I would have helped Sunry get off, since he did seem to regret cheating on his wife, and Sunry wasn't evil, or corrupt. Besides, as the Jedi Exile (or at least my Exile) would say, "nobody is beyond redemption."

Were I in Revan's postion, I would have helped Sunry get off, since he did seem to regret cheating on his wife, and Sunry wasn't evil, or corrupt.

You don't consider it "evil" to murder a woman in cold blood just because he learned that she was spying on him? It's certainly ruthless and brutal at the very least. That she was (most likely) "evil" and ruthless as well doesn't change that fact, IMO.

The scenario I run in my head is slightly different than the one in game. In my head, I see Jolee as the Arbiter, so I follow through as Jolee would.

I gather all the evidence - the tape, getting Firith Me to testify Elassa was packing a lightsaber, getting Gluupor to admit he planted evidence. I do not bribe the hotel manager. With all that in hand, I talk to Elora, get her to admit Sunry was cheating, and then throw the lot at Sunry's feet before the trial.

Usually, I try to tell the Selkath he was guilty, only to have Sunry squawk and the judges say "Well, you're his defense attorney, like it or not." The basis of American Constitutional law is that it is better to let a hundred guilty man go free than jail one innocent one, so there really is no winning. I do my best to defend him because the Rule of Law demands it.

From there, I let that loudmouth Sith procecutor hang himself, getting Sunry off the hook and the Sith a Contempt of Court charge.

You don't consider it "evil" to murder a woman in cold blood just because he learned that she was spying on him? It's certainly ruthless and brutal at the very least. That she was (most likely) "evil" and ruthless as well doesn't change that fact, IMO.

When you think about it, to Sunry, Elassa wasn't just "spying" on him. She was using him to get at the Republic, and Sunry loves the Republic, and when he learned about it, he probably felt like he betrayed the Republic in a way. It was ruthless and brutal, but people aren't perfect and sometimes they take things too far. I think that's what Sunry did.

Maybe if Sunry had killed her in self defense or outside the city of Ahto then it would be ok, but he shot her in the back, in their hotel room, in Ahto City (which obviously has laws against killing). I usually help him get off though. Hey, nobody's perfect. :)

I guess he killed her in a brutal way indeed. But he had no chance against her on a common firefight, he was crippled and old, and her was a Dark Jedi and young, after all. I guess, then, that the fairer sentence would be some years in reclusion, but since there isnt this option, I usually let he goes free, and I would love to tell Sunry that he should be ashamed and isnt an hero for what he did.

After all, I dont want the Selkath cutting Republic Kolto supply, cause, despite its actions, better it than the Empire.

Maybe if Sunry had killed her in self defense or outside the city of Ahto then it would be ok, but he shot her in the back, in their hotel room, in Ahto City (which obviously has laws against killing). I usually help him get off though. Hey, nobody's perfect. :)

Playing as a halo-wearing lightsider I see no problems with helping Sunry get declared innocent at his trial, since there is no Justice to be had with the Selkath, only cold, hard, rigid Law.

If Sunry is found guilty the Selkath would also punish the Republic, even though they didn't have anything to do with the crime. Sunry didn't assassinate Elassa under orders from the Republic, it was entirely his own initiative. The Republic's only involvement was that they tried to help him cover up the crime after the deed was done and he came to them for help. While somewhat shady, seen in the perspective of the rigidness of the Selkath legal system one can understand why they did it.

Sunry was a renowned Republic war hero. Other than not abandoning one of their own, the Republic reps on Manaan likely knew the Selkath would suspect Republic involvement in the crime regardless, due to their strong connection with the man, and place sanctions on them. To avoid this they helped him cover up his crime. The alternative could have serious consequences for the Republic war efforts and endanger the lives of millions of their other soldiers.

Seen from this perspective, letting Sunry go despite his crime is the smaller injustice being done of the two options available. Besides, I wouldn't want to be in his clothes when he and his wife are alone after all this. I can't imagine her being too happy with him now that the immediate danger and chock is over. :)

The real question is what didn't I do with Sunry and especially the witnesses. :D I have tried out every possible combination.

When you think about it, to Sunry, Elassa wasn't just "spying" on him. She was using him to get at the Republic, and Sunry loves the Republic, and when he learned about it, he probably felt like he betrayed the Republic in a way.

But, um...If Sunry loved the Republic, then why in the world did he decides to actually link up with Elassa, a Sith, who probraly killed as many Jedi as Sunry killed Sith? She had a lightsaber, for crying out loud! Why not do what the rest of the Republic troops do, just sneer at the Sith? Why didn't Elassa do what all the Sith women did and just laugh at the Republic? Strange indeed. It's like a "Romeo and Juilet" type story, only it ends up with Romeo killing off Juilet in bed, and feeling mighty proud of it.

What I wonder is what is not being said. Elassa was using Sunry to gain intel...but what if she was using him to convert him to Sith? What if she succeded? Or what if Sunry is using love to redeem Elassa to the LS? What if he succeded? Sunry tells us that Elassa was using him to gain information on the Republic, was Sunry using Elassa to gain information on the Sith? Of course, Elassa is dead, and this speculation is useless...But there is more to the story than what is being said, that is all.

Playing as a halo-wearing lightsider I see no problems with helping Sunry get declared innocent at his trial, since there is no Justice to be had with the Selkath, only cold, hard, rigid Law.

Justice is vague, but, what exactly is just? Just a simple massacure of every single Sith? Law is not vague and we could understand what is true.The Selkath put that law in there so that they would not get bombarded like Telos and Taris.

Of course, I see no problems with helping Sunry get declared innocent when you are LS. I understand your reasons, and it helps out the Republic. But I also see no problems with helping Sunry get killed off. Sunry is a murderer, after all. He did something DS. Murders are punished to discourge people from murdering. If Sunry gets away with murder, then what message does it send to EVERY Republic trooper on Mannan? "You can kill Sith, because, you know what, we will protect you from harm..."

Prehaps the most LS action would be the life imprisonment. Sunry get punished for his crime, but not killed off. Judging from the fact that the Republic would defeat the Sith Empire in canon, the Republic would be able to unimprison Sunry and declare him innocent, by presuring the Selkath to release him. Since the Sith Empire is gone, and the Republic remains, the Selkath knows to respond to pressure, and shall agree to relase Sunry and clear him. Sunry gets off free in the long run, but stays in jail for a while, so that he may learn his lesson.

And for people arguging of the reprucusions the Republic would face for being connected to Sunry's murder...you could see the trial where the Mannan authorites just fined the Sith Empire and the Republic tons of credits. Both sides are incredibly unhappy, but paid up the credits, knowing of their koltoh. And the Republic would be unable to be expelled, due to the fact of having supporters, and the fact that the Selkath gets lots of profit. I think the Republic can handle a couple of large fines here and there.

The Selkath cannot afford to lose customers...even when I presented proof of the Sith Embassy recuriting Selkath to overthrow the Atho government, all the Selkath did was give a slap on the wrist. So I see no problem whatsoever.

There was cut content (a datapad in the Sith base) indicating that Sunry and Elassa were engaging in a lot of Spy versus Spy between the lies of the bedroom shaking. She was pumping him for information while pumping his anatomy. He was indeed working for Republic Intellegence, trying to get her to turn double-agent. The datapad went onto murk things up even more by saying the Sith were going to kill Sunry because he wasn't a useful source.

This is why the mysterious man, BTW, was telling you to check BOTH bases.

I wonder why they cut that?

Dunno, but give a cheer to Fred Tetra. KOTOR Tool is one amazing archeology tool.

There was cut content (a datapad in the Sith base) indicating that Sunry and Elassa were engaging in a lot of Spy versus Spy between the lies of the bedroom shaking. She was pumping him for information while pumping his anatomy. He was indeed working for Republic Intellegence, trying to get her to turn double-agent. The datapad went onto murk things up even more by saying the Sith were going to kill Sunry because he wasn't a useful source.

Awesome. I think they probraly cut it because 1) people will only assume that the Sith actually tried to kill off Sunry, by framing him for Elassa's death, and not spy on the Republic...2) Just present the datapad to the Selkath during the trial to save Sunry! and 3) Prehaps you gone to Mannan first, compelete it, and then Kasshyykk later, and therefore do not trigger the Sunry's trial, since you did not have Jolee at the time? If you get the datapad then, you would be so confused...And since you would not be able to enter into the Sith Embassy after you complete the Mannan storyline, then you would not be able to gain teh datapad. But one could restore it...maybe.

If that was in the game, I'd probraly abandon my feeble defense of the Selkath's system and my rigid love for prosecuting murderers everywhere and joyfully defend Sunry. Hey, better the Republic than the Sith. Who knows? The Force probraly acts as karma, and Sunry will get in trouble much later on.

There was cut content (a datapad in the Sith base) indicating that Sunry and Elassa were engaging in a lot of Spy versus Spy...

Thanks for sharing that. I recently got KOTOR, and was pleasantly surprised with how good it was. I'm playing through my second time (using your dialogue pack, which, by the way, is very good!), and it has kind of bugged me on both playthroughs that multiple characters tell you to check the Sith base for evidence. The first time I played through, I went back to the Sith embassy just to double check, even though I had been extremely thorough the first time through. I also wonder why this was cut. I think the Sunry sidequest is one of the most thought-provoking quests in the entire game, for reasons already mentioned above, and anything that added more to it would have been welcome.

One of these days someone that has extensive knowledge of the KOTOR tool should make a thread listing all of the cut content they and others have found. It would be interesting to see.

Welcome to the Forums....

But they probably cut it for a reason..... why? I do not know.... I usually expose him, bc he killed her in cold blood, as I've stated before

Welcome to the Forums....

But they probably cut it for a reason..... why? I do not know.... I usually expose him, bc he killed her in cold blood, as I've stated before


Excess of quests on a planet, I think. Like the Kolto cut-Quest. Everyone knows that, or at least everyone should know, that originally it was meant to have a Kolto related quest (I dont know if it's smuggling/trading/negotiating) on Manaan.

Prehaps you gone to Mannan first, compelete it, and then Kasshyykk later, and therefore do not trigger the Sunry's trial, since you did not have Jolee at the time?
Doesn't matter whether you do Manaan with or without Jolee. When you get Jolee eventually the Sunry quest will become available and you can go back to Manaan to finish it.

Unless you've been banned from Mannan.... ;)

If I feel like doing the trial, I always set him free and get the Sith charged with conspiracy. I always get a good laugh doing that. :lol:

If I don't feel like it, I just hand over the recording to the Selkath judges and get the trial over with.

I tend to go through all the steps to free him since that generates more XP.

Sunry? That's a tough one for either light or dark side, unlike the warring Sandrell\Matalies where I scream at them to shut up. Having him convicted would satisfy Manaan's justice, yet it's argueable that they are not the most...how should I say? They are quite zealous in law and order, perhaps too much so. On the other hand what Sunry did was wrong, even though it was against the Sith, and the Republic sought to cover up the murder. Since I usually fail anyway I choose to defend him, which means he either gets away with it or has the chance for appeal.

I like to play the judge, declare life itself in contempt of court, and duly confiscate it from all there present. Hmm...this sounds familiar. :D

After trying various options on my first play through, I have gotten to where I just hand over the datapad proving his guilt. He kills one sith and pays for it with his life. I kill everyone I see in a blind rage and they do nothing. Speaking of which, one thing the KotOR games lack is the ability to turn on your party members. Any good rpg usually includes party attack right? (Didn't you take a whack at Kyle when playing as Jaden?) :)

Speaking of which, one thing the KotOR games lack is the ability to turn on your party members. Any good rpg usually includes party attack right?) :)

DS!Revans slice and dice their party members. LS doesn't have to.

Well i got him setenced to prison on my game but he was guilty but if you think about it how many sith has Revan killed?

Well i got him setenced to prison on my game but he was guilty but if you think about it how many sith has Revan killed?
I've had a change of heart on this topic, and for this specific reason. I used to think this way, but then I thought about and decided that what Sunry did was much different. Sunry murdered Elassa in cold-blood. Whether she was spying on him and the Republic didn't matter, the way he killed her made it wrong. Now if she openly attacked him and he killed her out of self-defense, then it would be different, but that's not how it happened.

I have gotten him out of punishment, and i have done the capital punishment route. To address the question of what would Revan have done...it gets complicated. My view of Revan is doingwhat it takes to make the Republic capable of fending off the True Sith, whether that means being good and moral 100% of the time, or bending rules to help the Republic, I do what I have to do. So in this case it is ultimately in the best interest of the Republic to let him off.

In my "True Revan" game I entered a guilty plea for Sunry without showing the video evidence. When Sunry flips out, the Selkath order you to do your duty as arbiter--the trial then proceeds as normal, and you get to expose and undermine the Sith's position on Manaan.

Defending him just well enough to get him imprisoned for life under the above circumstances seems the most "just" way for a LS Jedi to handle the situation IMO.

The crime and trial are one of the best parts of the entire series IMO, and an example I use often in discussions for how games could incorporate more "real" dilemnas rather than the obvious good vs. evil.

EDIT: One of the more difficult points for me when dealing with Sunry as a LSer is the fact that he blatantly lies to your face--repeatedly. Had he been willing to work *with* me in the first place I would have felt less wrong if I chose to help him get off.

I usually just skip most of this Sunry part but:

Going LS, it is your responsibility to safeguard the republic, so therefore it is you duty to protect its soldiers, Sunry included. Regardless that he is guilty of killing someone on neutral territory, he was acting in the interests of Republic. And albeit that it is a terrible act, they are loosing the war, and it really doesn't compare to the brutallity that the Sith have shown. e.g. Taris.

And of course if your DS, you don't really care about the republic, so you would want Sunry, a republic confidant dead. And here, Ironically, to get him killed all you need to do is tell the truth.

All in all this is one of the better examples of Bioware writing.