After reading many peoples posts about the length of the game, number of outcomes, an alternate group of force users and how wisdom could be better put to use, so i thought that an extra group of force users would be good (not the "True Sith" because they would still be similar to the Sith we have already seen) and solve many of the issues that people have.

So i've started this thread to discuss a possible philosiphy for this 3rd group.

My idea would be a group with a similar philosiphy to Sun Tzu. Where you look at everything as part of a whole and the greatest victory is one acheived without violence. I guess this would make them grey but leaning towards the DS.

They would operate in the background and very few people would know of their existance, their goals would be similar to GOTO's in that all they want is stability for the Galaxy, whether is be controled by the Jedi, Sith or neither.

What do you guy think? Feel free to post any ideas of your own as well.

Edit:
Ok, since no-one has any thoughts or ideas on the subject, i'll give you an example.

If you have read 'I, Jedi' then you will have heard of the Jensaarai, who were neither jedi or sith. They are denfensivley minded prefering to remain hidden and only strike when the time is right.

Ok, since no-one has any thoughts or ideas on the subject, i'll give you an example.

If you have read 'I, Jedi' then you will have heard of the Jensaarai, who were neither jedi or sith. They are denfensivley minded prefering to remain hidden and only strike when the time is right.

Some of us don't stay up that late/get up that early--your time stamps on your posts were sleep/getting kids ready for school time for me. :)

Anyway, are you talking about something like a Force using Genoharaden?

I dont think it would work personally. I think everybody likes being a Sith/Jedi and are familiar with them another class would confuse or put people off.

Anyway, are you talking about something like a Force using Genoharaden?

Could be a possibility but i was not thinking of them. But now you mention it i do remember someone including them in their fanfic.

How would you have them operate and what would their goals be?

How about the Mirror Jedi code?

Hope is Death.....
Faith is Pain.....
Compassion is Suffering.....
Love is hate.....
Light is a Lie.....

I could explain the idea behind this philosophy, if anybody wants me to.

How about the Mirror Jedi code?

Hope is Death.....
Faith is Pain.....
Compassion is Suffering.....
Love is hate.....
Light is a Lie.....

I could explain the idea behind this philosophy, if anybody wants me to.

Yes, please do. It sounds interesting, but almost sith-like.
Contemplatively contradictory.

Is it meant to confuse? or *is* there a philosophy?
...or is the philosophy to confuse?

There is a philosophy. It's not 'Sith' per se, but it's in a parallel universe where the Jedi follow the Dark Side... you'd have to read the story to understand. It's more to do with protection of yourself, and independance. Ironic considering the Jedi are willing servants to the Dark Empire...

Anyway, here's the explanation:

Hope is Death
Hope makes one weak. Your enemies exploit any weakness they see. Hope gives one preconceptions, false ideals. Your enemies will exploit these ideals, and use them to destroy you. Hope is Death.

Faith is Pain
Who do you place your faith in? Your family? Your friends? Your masters? They are no stronger than yourself. Should your faith be misplaced, it can only lead to suffering. You can have faith in nobody, not even yourself.

Compassion is Suffering
Your compassion will only give others beliefs about themselves that are... misleading. One may believe that they are more powerful than they really are. They will suffer the effects of your compassion.

Love is Hate
Love blinds your actions. One would be willing to do anything to protect the ones they love, or to make them happy, or to ensure you do not lose them. You blindness leads only to the alienation of the ones you love. They will eventaully hate you.

Light is a Lie
It's quite simple. There is no light in the galaxy. There is only darkness, there is only suffering, there is only hate.... there is only the Empire.

That's a basic explanation of the philosophy I wrote in the story (which was never actually included - only the code itself was ever revealed).

Hmm, i think it might be a bit too much like the Sith Code but it could be a bit more neutral.

@ The Doctor: I think you sound a bit like Kreia. Though they called her a Sith but I think she was neither. She helped yes to provide the Republic with some stability and yes she used the dark side. I think she may have been a perverted version of Jolee Bindo. The last explaination you gave sounds a bit too Sithy like. Maybe it would work like saying that Truth is a Lie after all what is truth, nothing but a certain point of view. What purpose does truth serve if we see everything from our point of view? Truth is nothing more than illusion to create stability and security.

What do you think?

I like it. Very Obi-wan.

I think somewhere between Kreia, Jolee and Obi-wan you have a more rounded and complete philosiphy than either the jedi or the sith.

My Mirror Jedi philosophy was modelled after Kriea's teachings, yes. But I will think on the Light is a Lie part... Your idea is intriguing, JediMaster12. I may have to use that in Dark Mirror, if that's alright.

@ The Doctor: That's fine by me. I just came up with it while doing the RP thread Ways of the Grey Jedi created by yours truly. I guess I started to see that there is no definite answer to everything.

@ Darth Sun_Tzu: I think this third group is a particularly good idea because in a way it reflects those that see more grey than dark or light, frankly both extremes annoy me lately. To tell you the truth I took quite a few things out of each of those characters because they all made sense. Some would say what about morality but then you would have to ask yourself what morality really is.

Do you think this group would be grey/dark or grey/light? Or do you think there would be a bit of both, some conflict within the group?

Conflict yes for it is conflict that strengthens us. Some would serve the light others serve the darkness but it all comes to their point of view and how much they believe in the code that The Doctor came up with.

I think that that code is too dark for a grey group, even if some of them are slightly on the ds of grey.

I was thinking something along the lines of the teachings of Sun Tzu. I'll try to come up with something, here goes:

The Universe is whole.
Reality depends on perspective.
Truth comes from knowing this.
Power comes from knowing that you can stike.
Victory is gained by knowing when to strike.

Or (and this is a direct quote)

Resolved to die, one can be killed.
Resolved to live, one can be captured.
Quick to anger, one can be goaded.
Pure and honest, one can be shamed.
Loving the people, one can be aggravated.



Hmm, i'm going to have to think some more about this. But what do you think of that as a basis?

The Universe is whole.
Reality depends on perspective.
Truth comes from knowing this.
Power comes from knowing that you can stike.
Victory is gained by knowing when to strike.


How about this:
The Universe is whole but can be broken.
Reality depends on perspective.
Knowing this is Truth yet Truth is an illusion.
Power comes from knowing you can strike yet power becomes weakness.
Victory is gained by knowing when to strike yet victory becomes defeat.


Resolved to die, one can be killed.
Resolved to live, one can be captured.
Quick to anger, one can be goaded.
Pure and honest, one can be shamed.
Loving the people, one can be aggravated

Resolved to die, one can be killed yet still live.
Resolved to live, one can be captured yet set free.
Quick to anger, one can be goaded and yet be assuaged.
Pure and true, one can be shamed yet be honest.
Filled with Love, one can hate yet show compassion.

Your basis was good. I expanded on it a bit and changed some words around. Maybe it could work for this third group idea you proposed for KOTOR 3. I also think that maybe if you combine both "verses" it could sound really cool. The words may have to be tweaked to flow together better. I am often called a poet and writing verse is a hobby thing.Let me know and maybe I could come up with something else.

The changes you made just make it confusing, i say keep it simple. I have also already combined them, like this:

Resolved to die, one can be killed.
Resolved to live, one can be captured.
Quick to anger, one can be goaded.
Pure and honest, one can be shamed.
Loving the people, one can be aggravated.
Hating the people, one can be manipulated.
Power comes from knowing that you can strike.
Victory is gained by knowing when to strike.
The Universe is whole.


I have cut some of the lines out that did not fit in with the flow.

So you are in a way reflecting the lesson of Yin and Yang. The universe is filled with opposite and to be a good warrior it must all be brought into balance. Sorry if it was confusing I was being contradictory and tend to speak in metaphors.


Loving the people, one can be aggravated.
Hating the people, one can be maipulated.

This part still bothers me a bit. I was thinking about when Yoda mentioned something about attachment leading to jealousy and thought of this way:

Filled with love, one can hate
Filled with hate, one can manipulate

It's supposed to reflect the inner self right?

the story could be like you come across goto and chase him down or something to his base and along the way find the factory where hk-50 droids are being made and could be opertaed by the sith, then goto gets killed after getting captured and used by the sith and, well you get the idea. Im just throwing out ideas from the top of my head. It might not be that great but if i thought it thru more it might sound better.

@Sunny, Well if you'd just wait a little while...I've only just got the hang of Alpha channels;)

Mean old idea stealer meanie :lol:

I doubt LA will add this to the "official junk" but something similar will show itself eventually...........

@ Darth Sun_Tzu

Quick to anger, one can be goaded.
Pure and honest, one can be shamed.

I've thought about these two lines some more and I came up with this. It is still giving the same idea but I want to run it by you:

Quick to anger, one can be calmed
Honest and true, one can fall

What do you think?

Quick to anger, one can be calmed


No, i think that makes it too jedi.

Honest and true, one can fall

Not bad but I think 'True and Honest, one can be disgraced'. Sounds a little better.

And the Universe is whole but can be broken.
I once held the galaxy by the throat-Kreia

What did you think of the other two lines, the ones about love and hate? I was trying to convey an attitude similar to Kreia's but also falling back on Jolee.

How about.....

Filled with love, one can be aggravated.
Filled with hate, one can be manipulated.

If there's a neutral ending I want a silly ending too! The Dali demand to be recognised as a genuine Force-using order! Or some prawns and calamari would do just as well...

For your code, how about

There is passion, there is peace,
There is knowledge, there is power,
There is strength, there is harmony,
There is victory, there is serenity,
There is the Light, there is the Darkness,
The Force breaks my chains,
The Force makes me free.
That seems a bit more...mantra-ish.

Good Darth InSidious. I played with yours a bit and came up with this:

In peace, there is passion
In power, there is knowledge
In harmony lies strength
Through serenity, there is victory
In darkness, there is light
In broken spirit, there is a whole
The Force sets me free

Don't be mad. :)

Sounds good. More 'Star Wars'.

Thanks. I like taking what verse people have and then changing it around and playing with it and coming out with something else. I have a knack for taking ideas and phrases and putting it together. I guess you would call it poetry. Maybe I should go to the entertainment forum post stuff like this. Any ways this whole third group thing that is neutral is fun to speculate on possible ideas. I like mainly because we never really see what the people in the middle think except for Kreia and Jolee in the games.Thanks for posting it Darth Sun_Tzu.

Nice work :)

Not sure about the line "In broken spirit, there is a whole". Maybe There is wholeness in the broken?

I think I fixed that line yay:) Here is the whole thing:
In peace, there is passion
In power, there is knowledge
In harmony lies strength
Through serenity, there is victory
In darkness, there is light
Where one is broken, there is a whole
The Force sets me free

Does it sound a bit better?

Yes good, i think we are about there with the code. Now what about a history for them? Or a leader?

I was thinking about jolee but it is possible that he can be killed so that would be no good. So I've been thinking about what someone said about Kreia (sorry can't remember who) that to be truely knowledgable in the force one must have seen both sides. So for a leader I thought some left over from the Exar Kun period. A Jedi that joined Exar Kun but after they failed to beat the jedi and the republic they turned from the darkside and instead just became a student of the force.

Well Jolee could have been the first leader of this group. They are not generally known but are seen by the Jedi as "misguided but not lost." They see all life is connected but nothing is definitive and that things are seen from a point of view and that consitutes to the truths the Republic clings to. If one is to understand the Force, one must learn of all its aspects and not just the light or just the dark.

So what do you think their history would be?

I think I fixed that line yay:) Here is the whole thing:
In peace, there is passion
In power, there is knowledge
In harmony lies strength
Through serenity, there is victory
In darkness, there is light
Where one is broken, there is a whole
The Force sets me free

Does it sound a bit better?

Perfect :)

I think this group would probably have seceded gradually, and by-and-large peacefully from the Jedi Order over a long period of time, until eventually, enough like-minded members came together to create this new order.

Also, I hate to nitpick, but this is the fourth, not the third group. The third are the Daft Side/Dali/Mojo siders :)

So what your saying is you'd like an older order built up over time from jedi and sith who have left their respective 'camps' and form an new order. By the time k3 start they are starting to be discovered.

Something like that?

Yeah, that's the idea. Of course there will be disagreements but the Jedi aren't perfect and neither are the Sith. Well people aren't perfect in general. They may have the best intentions but can still get everything wrong.

Also, I hate to nitpick, but this is the fourth, not the third group. The third are the Daft Side/Dali/Mojo siders


How is it the fourth and who is the third group really? Me confused:D

Yes me too.


So who do you think might be the founder of this group? Do you think they would have started as far back as the Great Hyperspace war? Or do you think they would be a newer order than that?

The Dali left the Jedi after the Great Schism, in what is known as the Slightly Smaller Schism. They focus more on humour and unusual ways of looking at the universe (say, through a small piece of fairy cake), and its application to the Force. Also known as the Daft Side, or the Mojo Side. Talk to RJM for more info ;)

As for your neutrals, I think they were probably founded around the time of the Exar Kun war, personally.

Well thats only 40-50 years before TSL. So it would not be a very old order. And it also the idea i already had.

So for a leader I thought some left over from the Exar Kun period. A Jedi that joined Exar Kun but after they failed to beat the jedi and the republic they turned from the darkside and instead just became a student of the force.

@DI, Actually, they are seperate, the mojo is just allied with the dali for mutually beneficial purposes, and the fact that there are many similarities.
Believing that they are one in the same is quite simply Daft:lol:

^That is a little off topic.

I think they might have a council, like the jedi do, but there is an official leader, like the Sith, who is the most powerful/wise.

If it is started at the time of Exar Kun, I would place a friendly bet of 20 credits that Jolee would be a leader if not the leading member, that is if I had 20 credits. I really don't know of any other Jedi that were like Jolee at the time of Exar Kun.

Although i'd like to see jolee again i don't think he will be in it but he could have had something to do with it b4 he crashed on Kashyyyk.

That's true because he did fight Exar Kun and he said it was forty years ago. This was when he was helping Revan out. After Revan, he may have gone back to being the crotchety ole hermit, if you didn't kill him.

He would have to, I don't think he would go back to the Jedi. Maybe he went somewhere that he could help.

So i've started this thread to discuss a possible philosiphy for this 3rd group.
Is this third group supposed to follow their own goals or would it side with one of the traditional groups at some point of the story? I think the answer to this question has a *great* impact on what their philosophy *can* be. If they have their own goals (what I assume) then it's maybe easier to make that up first and then develop their philosophy.

But I think it would be a great idea to start the story as a member of a third group, because this way the PC could start neutral (without LS/DS history) and becoming LS or DS are equally believable.

My idea would be a group with a similar philosiphy to Sun Tzu. Where you look at everything as part of a whole and the greatest victory is one acheived without violence. I guess this would make them grey but leaning towards the DS.
I think it would make them DS because the way of thinking behind Sun Tzu's philosopy is rather extreme. And AFAIK it's achieving victory without war and not without violence and not because war itself is evil but because war is risky.
I find the question interesting (in TSL) why so many Jedi fell to the DS (and according to that why Sith/ Dark Jedi can be turned from the DS). It's mentioned in TSL that the Jedi teachings have become arrogant but that's not a real answer. It's just a "thought play" since the story is fictional but I suggest the answer is that the Jedi ways of thinking have become to extreme. And being extreme is the best way to encounter something that "stirs up the pattern of belief". Atris is a good example - she is a LS extremist and becomes DS without even noticing.

They would operate in the background and very few people would know of their existance, their goals would be similar to GOTO's in that all they want is stability for the Galaxy, whether is be controled by the Jedi, Sith or neither.
Tough thing that... It's easier for Goto since he's been given the order to save the republic (not the galaxy) and adds a "by any means necessary" by himself. What is stability? I find this question difficult to answer for a social system even more if LS and DS solutions are prohibited.
If Kreia told the Exile the truth (Revans choices were always his own.) then Revan is the real grey Jedi...

What do you guy think? Feel free to post any ideas of your own as well.
Ok, you asked for it. I made up a group named the "visheevushy" (bad play of words, that only Germans understand). Their apprentices don't learn answers or solutions to certain problems but they have to solve problems on their own and have to refine them on their own until the teacher doesn't find weakness in their argumentation any more. There are no good or bad solutions, only adequate or inadequate solutions. They learn martial combat and there's no restriction of its use except the judgement of the visheevushy-adept. A problem from the visheevushy's point of view is whatever he considers as one. A visheevushy will work together with others if it fits his purpose but he will always distrust other visheevushys because he knows that they have other goals.
The visheevushy-codex is rather short:

Truth is not to be given, it is to be found.
There is no evil, only decisions I don't make.
There is no good, only acting based on my decisions.

That sounds a bit Sithy like. I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. One is a character I created for a fanfic, Ashira-Li who is dedicated to the Jedi Order and the code but also sees the fallacy of it. She follows the code but she loves and yet she is not rebuked. Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.

That sounds a bit Sithy like.
Of course it does! ;) But why? What makes the Sith code dark and the Jedi code light? I think victory for the Sith and peace for the Jedi are the words to turn the scale, yet it's still a matter of interpretation.

I think the attempt was made at the suggestion of a grey group; a group that see the inbetween. [...] Your vissheevushy codex seems to reflect more of the darker leanings of the grey.
You're welcome to improve it but I think it's not *that* bad. For a visheevushy (the name is still a bad joke) everything depends on the personal point of view and because of that he doesn't consider other people as good or evil and he doesn't consider other people's opinions as inferior *but* his own opinion is everything that matters for his decisions and therefore actions. He isn't easily manipulated but if he can't avoid it he might manipulate other people to reach his goal. It's true that the DS is as open to him as is the LS. From the Jedi/Sith point of view, some of his actions could be considered DS and some could be considered LS. But unless he sees a point in doing the typical LS/DS things he lacks ambition to do either of them.

I'm not saying it's bad, it just seems to reflect a little too darkness. Then again truth is nothing but a point of view. So in a way truth is flawed and if truth is flawed then so is knowledge.

I don't mind the idea, i'm now more infavour of an non-unified group, where eventhough they follow the same code, some may lean more to the DS and some the LS.