Now now, everyone needs to take a deep breath, calm down and act rationally or else I'll ask someone to end this flamefest.

EDIT: :fist: D333 :fist: Just seconds before...

lol sorry guys, it just frustrates me when someone replies into a discussion without reading whats already been replied. To be honest i reckon this discussion has been pretty well exhausted, it might be a good idea to lock it.

^No. I have a few things to say myself:

Sorry, people. But MannyC has a point in a way. Even though I know that we will never get the kind of Deus Ex or Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (don't lie, Vampire is in a very large part, in fact, and RPG) still there are some things that you missed about the D20 system.

I watched how this thread progressed and regretted every second that I can't participate here. I remember that it began with the 'Combat' thread where I proclaimed out of dis-knowledge that KOTOR should be an 'FPS' (by the way, when you use a sword in a game that is not FPS). After several posts I was defeated by RedHawke and lukeiamyourdad; and to my shame, I had to admit defeat. But I did it in the worst possible way: I started supporting the D20 system. I was ashamed at how I turned out to be such a fool that doesn't know anything. And I saw this thread and posted here a not honest answer. I wanted to support MannyC earlier, but I was afraid of being defeated again by those two, so I withdrew. But as time progressed I decieded "That's it! I'm going to fight." And I wanted to start here... BUT I first did some research on the D20 system and found some pretty interesting things. I did this to arm myself and come out and say it.
Two to be precise:

I read the rules about Combat Basics and found something called Attacks of opprotunity, Threatening Areas. Here is how it goes:
Threatened Area
A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a character. A small or medium sized character normally has a 5-foot threat radius. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Moving
If a character moves through (not simply into) or out of a threatened area, a character usually provokes an attack of opportunity.
If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened.
If a character's entire move for the round is 5 feet the 5 foot move does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Taking an Action
A character taking some kinds actions provokes attacks of opportunity, as described in the rules for each action type.
Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and a character can only make one per round. The character does not have to make an attack of opportunity if the character doesn't want to. The character makes the attack of opportunity at the character's normal base attack bonus.

As far as I remember; I don't recall seeing anything like 'Aim at this part of the body to initate a move of high chance of achieving'. As far as I remember, there was nothing that told you how to move anywhere.

Full attack [Full][AoO: No]
Description: If a character gets more than one attack per action, the character must use the full attack action to use those additional attacks. A character does not need to specify the targets of a the attacks ahead of time. A character can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The character may take a 5 ft. step before, after, or between the attacks.
If a character gets multiple attacks based on a character's base attack bonus, the character must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack Action: After a character's first attack, if the character has not yet taken a 5-foot step, a character can decide to move instead of making a character's remaining attacks.
The character uses each attack to attack an opponent in a space that character threatens. The attack roll is:
d20 + Attack modifiers vs. AC of target
Attack modifiers consist of the character's base attack bonus, size adjustment, strength adjustment, and any other bonuses that apply to the attack roll.
A natural 1 on the d20 is always a miss, and a natural 20 on the d20 is always a hit.
If the modified attack roll is equal to or greater than the AC of the target, the attack is successful. The attack may also be a Threat. See Critical Hits and Dealing Damage, below, for more details.
If the character is attacking an armed opponent while unarmed, the character provokes an immediate attack of opportunity from the target which is resolved before the character's attack. Note that under certain circumstances, a character attacking without a weapon is still considered "armed".
A character can choose to fight defensively when taking the full attack action. If a character does so, the character takes a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

As far as I have read, it says that it is up to the player to decide what kind of a Attack to perform and which threatened area to attack.

So I ask you: What is the difference between the D20 system and the one in Vampire: Bloodlines? If you use the same attack type in KOTOR just like in Vampire, there won't be much of a difference. But how can the defense be configured you say? Let the computer do it, that's the only thing that can be done.

as far as i know, the only difference is that vampire uses 10 sided dice instead of 20 sided dice.

My point exatcly. The only difference I see will happen is a visual one. RPG combat systems aren't defined by the way of issuing attack orders; but by the way of performing them. In Vampire: Bloodlines what do you do? You walk up to them and press a button: The character attacks and the opponent recieves a limited ammount of damage. In KOTOR what do you do? You click on an opponent and the computer does the job for you.

But yet both are considered RPGs... The only difference between the Vamipre and KOTOR combat system is that in Vampire you have more freedom; But it isn't a reflex game.

That's where issuing commands is. In KotOR, you don't simply just sit back and do nothing. You have to check out your buff, pay attention to what your NPCs are doing, choose different types of attacks, etc.

It's more interactive then you might "think".

yea but it plays more like a strategy game. My argument is that in a game about jedi, control should be more direct and less strategy driven. But they'd have to work out a decent way to control the lightsaber first, as it is there arent really any games that simulate it that well.

It's more interactive then you might "think".
I admit that Vamipre: Bloodlines isn't a good example because of the 'aiming', plus you didn't have a party in the game so that doesn't count.

But look at Dungeon Siege 2: You have to approach the guy and then click with you right mouse button to hit him once every time you click it; and the defense is done automaticly by your computer (depending on your luck, really). Seeing that where you approach the guy and hit him by clicking a mouse button on him once to hit him once, will make everyone stop whining. I hope I made sense.

I think the freedom to have in combat could be an interesting thing to see done, but it might also have some downsides to it, and although i voted yes out of curiosity, i realized that the d20 system could be one of the reasons that KOTOR is so good of a series...so against my own poll, i dont think the freedom you want in combat is a good idea, at least for the KOTOR series.

But look at Dungeon Siege 2: You have to approach the guy and then click with you right mouse button to hit him once every time you click it; and the defense is done automaticly by your computer (depending on your luck, really). Seeing that where you approach the guy and hit him by clicking a mouse button on him once to hit him once, will make everyone stop whining. I hope I made sense.

That's actually hack'n slash.
Very different then what KotOR is all about.

I realize that in hack'n slash games, defense and stats are still very relevent, but it relies a lot more on point and click then on strategy, which is the path the KotOR games took.

can we get redhawke and luke back in here? they've got much more guided and sensical discussion to add.
You asked for it! :xp:

Seriously though, kudos to Vlad for actually taking the time to look at the D20 rules, that shows initative and a desire for understanding...

+20 Cool Points for Vlad! :shads3:

+20 points from me too :p - I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up :)

Well if you dont back it up, then its not really an argument then is it?...good job...

I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up :)
I do too! :)

Even though I don't personally like the D20 system for Star Wars, it is fine for Fantasy games. I do encourage everyone try the game out with a few victims... er'... friends, it can be quite fun.

Just so you know Vlad if they did integrate those 2 rules you listed I would personally go for it! It would make you think twice about running from combat. :D

I love it when a discussion does not end in flaming and the participants actually take the time to back their arguments up :)

that was probably a crack at me, but at any rate, its hard to back up an argument like this, which is pretty much an opinion based argument. You cant really "win" or "lose" one like this

you got that right but every argument has to be supported with facts.