Well, I'd say thats not what "TJ" was talking about... and you know this.
Also, I wouldn't say that I have ever seen any man and woman create a "MAN"
I believe the text does say "MEN."
It could be interpreted both ways (or actually several different ways), but it seems to me they mean that all men (includes women, or are they sexist?) are created (by their parents) equal.
Meh, I edited my post while you posted. I'll restate, it says men, and its impossible for a woman to give birth to a man. :-p I know I am being picky, but hey, was Adam not a man?
EDIT: Here you go:
Decleration of Indepence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
TJ clearly acknowledges a creator. A creator creates. Just because he doesn't say God doesn't mean thats not what he was talking about. We all know he wasn't... ummm.. some other religion with a creator. :-p
It wouldn't sound very good to say "all fetuses are created equal" now would it? :p
But anyway, people talked different back then, so it's better to just focus on the meaning of it rather than the individual working.
Hah! I edited again... :D :D Well... at least this post stops you from double posting!
Besides, now we are both being picky :D :p Ok- Overall meaning - Everyone is Equal. Got it, but I havn't said they aren't equal.
EDIT: Im going to elaborate a bit further- Like I said, no one says homosexuals are inferior (well, some people do.) Im just saying a man can't marry a man. That means me too... as you can see, I am violating my own rights.
Yeah your right. That totally resolves it. Notice the created part. By who? God. God says no gay marriage. He doesn't just change his mind either. If he didn't want it 2000 years ago, what has changed since then?
pfftt who gives a crap what god thinks I don't even think he/she exsitists any way and this is a legal debate not a religious one
and anyway religions need to keep up with the times and stop living in the past
Creator doesn't automatically mean god. Even if it does, it doesn't automatically mean Christian god. It was purposefully created to be vague so as to appease all who live here. Non-specifics allow for inclusion of all.
That means me too... as you can see, I am violating my own rights.
But it is of no consequence to you. You're merely making a "sacrifice" that has no meaning. It's essentially like slaughtering Bob and saying it's comparable to Jesus' sacrifice. His sacrifice has no meaning as he's not the son of god and he didn't take the sins of man upon himself.
And you're not violating any of your own rights, you're living your life. Law as it is right now however is depriving people of being able to live their life to the fullest. The law as it is now has no real oppressive value towards you, where as to a homosexual or bisexual there is an oppressive value.
Regarding the argument on marriage "traditionally" being between a man and a woman and the importance of "maintaining tradition":
Traditionally speaking, marriage was a union of a man and a woman of the same background and economic class. A marriage between a rich aristocrath and a widow struggling at the edge of starvation was unheard of, as was the marriage of a Swedish man and an Egyptian woman.
If society and Christianity survived twisting and crumbling traditional marriage into the mutant it is today, with pink people marrying brown people and rich stock market-giants marrying unemployed people on welfare who live in slums (OK, so that's pretty unheard of still:p), who's to say it won't survive the addition of gay marriage?
Yeah your right. That totally resolves it. Notice the created part. By who? God. God says no gay marriage. He doesn't just change his mind either. If he didn't want it 2000 years ago, what has changed since then?
And marriage's transformation into a Christian tradition is another breach of tradition.
Christianity has been around for two millenia. Marriage has been around "forever". You do the math.
Your "God" most likely hasn't changed his mind of eating pork, cutting your hair or beard, or wearing clothes made from different garments either. Why do so many bishops sin by doing that? The Catholic Church is in a crisis where the Pope himself is a mortal sinner who, according to the Bible, should be executed, yet no one lifts a finger to stop it :rolleyes:.
Yeah you're right. That totally resolves it. Notice the [America] created part. By who? God.
[Edited for context]
I thought it was the Founding Fathers?
I thought it was the Founding Fathers?
You misunderstand, the sentence said "All men were created equal" Im making the the word created more... realised. Someone has to create, nothing makes itself out of nothing. Thats what it says, basically, I am saying Revan proved himself wrong.
pfftt who gives a crap what god thinks I don't even think he/she exsitists any way and this is a legal debate not a religious one
Fine, I don't give a crap about any thing else you say, considering you miss the entire point of a thread you have made. You don't even understand the issue. Why is there a problem with Gay marriage? You think someone just said "HEY !!!! GUYZZZ I H4T3 TEH GAY PEOPELZ!"?
No, Judiasm started the whole don't have sex with the same sex thing. Christianity supported it, and still does. You know, if it wasn't for this, this thread wouldn't be here.
Not to mention you (As in Revan the Great) started it by qouting stuff that had partial religious meaning. :-p
and anyway religions need to keep up with the times and stop living in the past
Meh, its all relevant to now, you just don't understand, and there is no point in explaining it to you.
If you want to drop religion fine... I'll stay out. To be honest... your saying "Lets leave Religion out of a Religous debate" which is stupid. This whole thing revolves around homosexuals, and religion. Nothing else. The law is only like that because of religious principle.
Christianity has been around for two millenia. Marriage has been around "forever". You do the math./quote]
Don't forget Judiasm, so you can subtract 5000 years (I think) making a total of 7000 years ago.
[quote]Creator doesn't automatically mean god. Even if it does, it doesn't automatically mean Christian god. It was purposefully created to be vague so as to appease all who live here. Non-specifics allow for inclusion of all.
Jefferson mentions God earlier in the text. God was capitalized, like a name. How many other gods do you know of that are called "God" beside the Christian one? The fact that he capitlized the word tells me it is a name. The word god isn't a name, unless your talking about the Christian God (in english.)
Oh and Revan left out the next part of the sentence when TJ also uses the word "Creator" with a capitalized "C."
Creator is not plural, and it is capitalized so its a name. You know, like when someone capitalized "Him" or "He" or "Lord" they are talking about God, same with "Creator."
While he may have meant it to be vague, it certainly is perceived to be the Christian God.
Besides, we do know what he was talking about... we understand the era in which it was written. They showed a lot of tolerance for Brittish partriots living in the US at that time.[/sarcasm]
You misunderstand, the sentence said "All men were created equal" Im making the the word created more... realised. Someone has to create, nothing makes itself out of nothing. Thats what it says, basically, I am saying Revan proved himself wrong.
We create humans through sex. Sure, there had to be something to create us- but in the context of the Founding Fathers they meant we were born equal.
Fine, I don't give a crap about any thing else you say, considering you miss the entire point of a thread you have made. You don't even understand the issue. Why is there a problem with Gay marriage? You think someone just said "HEY !!!! GUYZZZ I H4T3 TEH GAY PEOPELZ!"?
I agree with you. Even though I don't agree with your opinions- the homosexual marriage argument is based entirely on religious principle.
No, Judiasm started the whole don't have sex with the same sex thing. Christianity supported it, and still does. You know, if it wasn't for this, this thread wouldn't be here.
What? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Jefferson mentions God earlier in the text. God was capitalized, like a name. How many other gods do you know of that are called "God" beside the Christian one? The fact that he capitlized the word tells me it is a name. The word god isn't a name, unless your talking about the Christian God (in english.)
I don't think that's how it goes. From a subjective point of view, whatever god you worship would be "God." Jefferson might had been Deist- meaning that he believed that there was a God but he didn't believe it meddled in worldly affairs. Far different from Christianity's view of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God)
According to that, the reason why you capitalize God is to differentiate between Monotheistic and Polytheistic religions.
Oh and Revan left out the next part of the sentence when TJ also uses the word "Creator" with a capitalized "C."
Refering to a single Creator, not the Christian Creator.
While he may have meant it to be vague, it certainly is perceived to be the Christian God.
Only because Christianity is the most popular religion in the United States. I'm sure to Muslims it's just another name for Allah.
Besides, we do know what he was talking about... we understand the era in which it was written. They showed a lot of tolerance for Brittish partriots living in the US at that time.[/sarcasm]
It's my understanding that they did show some tolerance for British patriots, at least in the Southern States. They were reluctant to fight; they felt loyalty to Britian but not to the king. Thus, they let the British citizens stay in the country as long as they didn't hurt the US's revolution.
But I'm probably wrong about that. :p
Allah is merely the arabic term for God. I'm sure you don't believe "tocador" is a different device from "toilet", merely because of difference in language.
I think it's interesting that religious types so strongly defend the fact that gay marriage is 'wrong' somehow. Well, that isn't really that interesting. What is interesting is that when you stop trying to persuade them there's nothing wrong with it, and ask 'what gives you the right to stop people doing it?', they can't answer that one, and keep on talking about why it is wrong. But we don't dispute that it's a sin. Lot's of things are sins, though, and are perfectly legal. What gives them the right to ban homosexuality in particular?
Creator doesn't automatically mean god. Even if it does, it doesn't automatically mean Christian god. It was purposefully created to be vague so as to appease all who live here. Non-specifics allow for inclusion of all.
um ok but I used it as a general term I didn't mean to make it seem like I was referencing one particular religion cuz they all have and equivalent to the christian god anyway
and the bottom line is that banning gay marriages is AGAINST the constitution and is basically voiding the SEPARATION of church and state
and pay attention to this VERY important quote from the Declaration of Independence "We hold these TRUTHS to be self evident that ALL men are created EQUALLY"
so to deny the right for gays and lesbians to marry each other is against the basic principle that our country was created under
and what good is the separation of church and state if we allow religious beliefs to dictate what laws we make which is exactly what Bush is doing with this whole I'M gonna ban gay marriages thing.
so How can you as US citizens sit by and let Bush do as he pleases even though he is undermining the very concept that our four fathers had when creating the USA.
I think it's interesting that religious types so strongly defend the fact that gay marriage is 'wrong' somehow. Well, that isn't really that interesting. What is interesting is that when you stop trying to persuade them there's nothing wrong with it, and ask 'what gives you the right to stop people doing it?', they can't answer that one, and keep on talking about why it is wrong. But we don't dispute that it's a sin. Lot's of things are sins, though, and are perfectly legal. What gives them the right to ban homosexuality in particular?
thank you *adds you to the people who are trying to discount religion in law making*
... Uh, why the hell did you quote me? I was helping you out of the hole you dug yourself into.
... Uh, why the hell did you quote me? I was helping you out of the hole you dug yourself into.
oops sorry I miss understood your post I thought you were correcting me
sorry for that and thanks for the help
Yeah, reread my post :-p Your really confusing the crap out of me.
Allah is merely the arabic term for God. I'm sure you don't believe "tocador" is a different device from "toilet", merely because of difference in language.
Whats up with the Arabic phrase "There is no God but Allah" Funny how they use the english term in their phrase. Seems to me, that they don't view the Christian God as the same god as Allah. I don't either. They describe him totally different, even though, technically Islam was born from a mixture of Christianity and Judiasm... with some new stuff.
We create humans through sex. Sure, there had to be something to create us- but in the context of the Founding Fathers they meant we were born equal.
TJ was refering to a god. I'll say, its sorta unclear which one-- but he is saying that a god created us. Reread my last post. Your leaving out the end of the sentence, which validates my point when TJ references a SINGLE CREATOR. Notice, it doesn't say CREATORS. I made it clear that the word was not plural--- as in ONLY ONE. Unless humans turned asexual... well.. I don't think he was referring to men and women :p
Fact- He was refering to a single diety. 3 monothiestic religions around are Judiasm, Christianity (sorta... its complicated) and Islam. None of these condone homosexuality. So, TJ is basically saying one of these religions is right (I can't think of any other monothiestic religions, Hinduism has more than one God... buddhism doesn't really have a God... for the most part) anyways-- yeah, he is at least stating that one of those religions has to be right. In my opinion, the creator of the universe has a right to say whats right and whats not.
and what good is the separation of church and state if we allow religious beliefs to dictate what laws we make which is exactly what Bush is doing with this whole I'M gonna ban gay marriages thing.
so How can you as US citizens sit by and let Bush do as he pleases even though he is undermining the very concept that our four fathers had when creating the USA.
Simple, I can sit by very easily. Ever hear of Checks and Balances? It's not just Bush using religion to dictate laws, he can't do that (by himself.) He needs support. Write to congress, or better yet, Bush himself. He's not a dictator, he can't just do what he wants.
thank you *adds you to the people who are trying to discount religion in law making*
A list? what the.... what are talking about/doing? You got a petition going, lol?
I don't think that's how it goes. From a subjective point of view, whatever god you worship would be "God."
Would be A God. But, I see your point. Either way, reguardless of whether or not Jefferson was a Diest, he would still have to believe that God created everything, but then just brushed it all aside.
I think it's interesting that religious types so strongly defend the fact that gay marriage is 'wrong' somehow. Well, that isn't really that interesting. What is interesting is that when you stop trying to persuade them there's nothing wrong with it, and ask 'what gives you the right to stop people doing it?', they can't answer that one, and keep on talking about why it is wrong. But we don't dispute that it's a sin. Lot's of things are sins, though, and are perfectly legal. What gives them the right to ban homosexuality in particular?
Hmmm, thats a good perspective. An excellant question. From a Christian's perspective (because thats what your asking for) Marriage is sacred, between a man and a woman, a gift from God. God gave marriage to Adam and Eve. This has led to the common phrase "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." This is a Christian perspective.
As to why is gay marriage attacked more than anything else? I guess a lot of Christians think they are condoning it by allowing it. They can't stop homosexual relations, but by allow marriage you are condoning the sin. It does seem to be kinda "picked" on a lot. I guess because right now its a hot topic, 20 years ago I don't think it was like this. Not to mention, like I said, they can't stop whats done in other peoples homes, but they can stop the marriage (stop, what am I saying, something has to start before it can stop... :p )
Whats up with the Arabic phrase "There is no God but Allah"
You must have heard wrong. It's " 'Allah' is the one true god, and Muhammad is his prophet."
And effectively your point is moot. That has no voiding effect on what I said.
Well... yeah, but yeah. I have heard both phrases. Either way, Islamics don't accept homosexuality either, I don't think, so it really doesn't matter. Christians just... speak out more often. ;)
ok why don't we just learn from the ancient Greek state of Sparta WHERE HOMOSEXUALITY was excepted and in most cases encouraged among the ranks of soldiers
heck if it could be excepted then
WHY NOT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
ok why don't we just learn from the ancient Greek state of Sparta WHERE HOMOSEXUALITY was excepted and in most cases encouraged among the ranks of soldiers
heck if it could be excepted then
WHY NOT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
Not that I don't agree with what you're really trying to say, but one could mention that Sparta and Greece fell precisely because of hedonism, among which Homosexual would be.
Trying to explain why gay marriages are wrong from a point of view as a christian, to someone who does not share the beliefs is like trying to fit a circle through a triangular hole. For one it is wrong for two of the same sex to marry, under christian beliefs which are my beliefs. You can argue over theology all you want but it's not going to change. I could quote scripture as to why homosexuality is wrong, but some would brush it off because they don't believe in the Bible or God. My reasons as to why it is wrong may not be a "worthy" answer to some, but it is what I believe. So what i'm getting at is that those who do not be believe in God cannot grasp our reasonings as to why it is wrong, and why gay marriages should not be allowed. And yes, i will admit, if this country is totally free, gay marraiges should be allowed. But then a lot of other things would have to be allowed, until total anarchy. But thats just taking it a little too far, but don't you see my point. To be totally free is anarchy. My morals and beliefs are different than many in this forum, and you can attack them all you want, because i have faith. Faith that there is a God, faith in His Word, and faith that one day all will see His truth. Argueing that gay marriages should be allowed is moot, because neither side will change their minds, which brings us back to square one.
If you don't like the idea of gay marriages, the answer is simple: don't marry someone of your own gender.
Otherwise, there's no logical reason to disallow same-sex marriage. None.
Religious reasons are irrelevent. Religion does NOT have domain over marriage any more than it does processing the dead at a funeral. Sure marriages, like funerals, can have a religious aspect, but both are more social and cultural than religious. Funerals and marriages are civil problems with certificates, rules, policies, and protocols set by governments. If religion wants to be involved they follow civil procedure FIRST.
Religious reasons are irrelevent. Religion does NOT have domain over marriage any more than it does processing the dead at a funeral. Sure marriages, like funerals, can have a religious aspect, but both are more social and cultural than religious. Funerals and marriages are civil problems with certificates, rules, policies, and protocols set by governments. If religion wants to be involved they follow civil procedure FIRST.
That is your opinion, but like i said before, you can't understand my reasonings, becuase you are not a christian. And I don't expect you to understand, because you can't. God's reasons are not irrelevent, because he made everything, why wouldn't the Creator of life and everything on this earth, have a say in what is right and what is wrong, and where His reasons are relevent or not. His reasons are always relevent, and right. And it's hard to explain to someone who does not share any of the same beliefs as me, especially my belief in God.
That is your opinion, but like i said before, you can't understand my reasonings, becuase you are not a christian. And I don't expect you to understand, because you can't. God's reasons are not irrelevent, because he made everything, why wouldn't the Creator of life and everything on this earth, have a say in what is right and what is wrong, and where His reasons are relevent or not. His reasons are always relevent, and right. And it's hard to explain to someone who does not share any of the same beliefs as me, especially my belief in God.
but I AM technically a christian I was baptised as one but I DON'T BELIEVE in religion any more because it conflicts so much with my system of values and to ban gay marriage based solely on religious reasons is not a VALID reason at all because of the SEPARATION of church and state and there is NO legal reason to ban such a thing
and I'd like to see you give me one valid legal reason why to ban gay marriage and because it is a SIN is not valid at all see my first post for my reasons
God's reasons are not irrelevent, because he made everything, why wouldn't the Creator of life and everything on this earth, have a say in what is right and what is wrong, and where His reasons are relevent or not.
What if I assert that the creator of all is Watanka and that Watanka has nothing to say about homosexuality at all? My creator is the correct one, not yours. Yours is heresy, blasphemous and an afront to all that is actually holy.
But if your god is real and really has something to say, let him say it. He doesn't appear to actually say anything at all. Therefore, let us turn to humanity and logic to reason out what should be legal and illegal. Until such time as someone offers a logical, reasoned argument as to why same-sex marriage should be made illegal, the reasoned, logical arguments win. And there are many, not the least of which is that it is beneficial to society to create more combined income families.
The core of the matter here, is that it should not technically affect Christians in any way if gay marriage is allowed or not. It shouldn't affect anyone who isn't gay themselves. Just like I don't feel bad for eating beef while Hindu's cannot, or pork while Muslims cannot. I don't feel bad about eating during Ramadan, I don't feel bad about working on Sundays. And nobody seems to give me any trouble for doing that, though I am in fact violating their religions. It's because it's not what I believe in. The fact that I do it doesn't affect them in any way, so why should they even bother me about it? They don't, and shouldn't.
But if your god is real and really has something to say, let him say it. He doesn't appear to actually say anything at all. Therefore, let us turn to humanity and logic to reason out what should be legal and illegal. Until such time as someone offers a logical, reasoned argument as to why same-sex marriage should be made illegal, the reasoned, logical arguments win. And there are many, not the least of which is that it is beneficial to society to create more combined income families.
He has said it, it's in His word, called the Bible. And what has humanity gotten us? Nothing but death.
The core of the matter here, is that it should not technically affect Christians in any way if gay marriage is allowed or not. It shouldn't affect anyone who isn't gay themselves. Just like I don't feel bad for eating beef while Hindu's cannot, or pork while Muslims cannot. I don't feel bad about eating during Ramadan, I don't feel bad about working on Sundays. And nobody seems to give me any trouble for doing that, though I am in fact violating their religions. It's because it's not what I believe in. The fact that I do it doesn't affect them in any way, so why should they even bother me about it? They don't, and shouldn't.
What do you mean by technically? Like in a physical way?And you bring up a good point, but like i said in our country it should be legal if we are truly free. And i don't know if you mean the whole sunday thing is Chritianity or another religion,if it is Christianity you are refering to, the sabbath is actual on a saturday. And once Christ came and the church was formed, the whole resting on the sabbath was no longer needed. Basically the sabbath was a day to rest, just as God did when He formed the Universe, and not resting on the sabbath was deemed as not trusting in God that He could privide for you even if you didn't work. At least thats kind of how I interpretate it.
What do you mean by technically? Like in a physical way?And you bring up a good point, but like i said in our country it should be legal if we are truly free.
But we are free and it doesn't mean that freedom leads to anarchy. The reason why we are not free is the simple principle of your freedom ending where the other's start.
In this case, Christian freedom is not hampered at all since nobody is forcing priests of any religion to perform homosexual weddings. Thus, your freedom is hampered in no way.
I do wonder why it's more politically correct for Christians to try and stop homosexuals at every turn but they won't dare to hamper the rights of a Muslim man.
I do wonder why it's more politically correct for Christians to try and stop homosexuals at every turn but they won't dare to hamper the rights of a Muslim man.
Perhaps it is because all sorts of religions are practice here in the U.S. and its been that way since long before most of us were born. They've been here for so long and the two co-exist and it cannot be changed. It is apart of "everyday life". And Christians can stop gay marraige before it can be made "everyday life". That is why there is a "political correctness"(if it even deemed politically correct) going against gay marriage.I'm having a hard time getting this out, so if this is confusing i will try to restate this in better words.......if they come to me.but I AM technically a christian I was baptised as one but I DON'T BELIEVE in religion any more because it conflicts so much with my system of values and to ban gay marriage based solely on religious reasons is not a VALID reason at all because of the SEPARATION of church and state and there is NO legal reason to ban such a thing
So do you still believe you are a Christian, but just not in religious terms? I'm a little confused.
What do you mean by technically? Like in a physical way? No, I mean that it doesn't affect you in any real way. Like, it's something that happens, and you notice it happening, but it doesn't happen to YOU, so it doesn't matter.
if it is Christianity you are refering to, the sabbath is actual on a saturday.I actually didn't know that, but that isn't my point anyways. My point is that there are a LOT of things that I do that violate a lot of different religions, but it doesn't matter because it's not affecting them.
So do you still believe you are a Christian, but just not in religious terms? I'm a little confused.
No i do not consider my self a christian anymore I have even gone as far as discounting gods exsitance. to put it more mildly I HATE RELIGION every single one conficts with my system of values
and I have YET to see one of you relilgious types give a valid reason for banning Gay marraige and because it is a SIN isn't even close to a valid reason in any sense of the word
all I said is I am technically christian because that is what I was baptised as one
No i do not consider my self a christian anymore I have even gone as far as discounting gods exsitance. to put it more mildly I HATE RELIGION every single one conficts with my system of values
So you hate religion because it conflicts with your views? You're being just as intolerant as the religions you're defying. How do you discount God, as well? It's just as hard to find proof against God as it is to find proof for him.
They've been here for so long and the two co-exist and it cannot be changed.
Yeah, straights and gays have been around for so long, both co-exist and cannot be changed either. What's your point?
I HATE RELIGION every single one conficts with my system of values
Really? Care to give examples?
*echoes ty's sentiments as well*
Hypocrisy isn't a good thing.
Really? Care to give examples?
*echoes ty's sentiments as well*
Hypocrisy isn't a good thing.
wait one hot second I hate religion I don't dislike people because they are religious if that is what you thought. heck my best friend is one of the most religious people I know
examples in most every religion being gay is a sin and marrying someone of the same sex is out of the question. This goes against my values system because I believe in equality in everything and yes I know I don't always seem that way by my post and stuff but I do truly have that belief.
second I believe in tolerance which there is none towards other religions
and unless my history teacher told me wrong the word Muslim in Arabic means peace and if I am wrong someone please tell me
and in most religions my values would be consider against them so why believe in them.
damn this is hard to explain
lets just say that what I believe in goes against any religion I am aware of.
and I have YET to see one of you relilgious types give a valid reason for banning Gay marraige and because it is a SIN isn't even close to a valid reason in any sense of the word
Sin is a very valid reason, you being a former Christian should know that.No, I mean that it doesn't affect you in any real way. Like, it's something that happens, and you notice it happening, but it doesn't happen to YOU, so it doesn't matter.
One could say that about a lot of things, murder, rape, among other things. But you see, murder, rape doesn't happen to me, but it does matter to me, because it is wrong, just as gay marriage is wrong to me. Kind of see what i'm getting at? I know rape and murder are a far cry from being gay, i'm just using it for a comparison.Yeah, straights and gays have been around for so long, both co-exist and cannot be changed either. What's your point?
Basically, being gay is looked down upon more than being Muslim, that is why its being attacked. Homosexuals have never been accepted in society, am i right? It's an easier thing to fight when it hasn't been socially accepted.
Except murder and rape do effect you whether you know it or not. Plus rape and murder are violent acts against people. Being gay is hardly a violent act in which people are harmed.
Basically, being gay is looked down upon more than being Muslim, that is why its being attacked. Homosexuals have never been accepted in society, am i right? It's an easier thing to fight when it hasn't been socially accepted.
this statement is exactly why i don't beleive in religion
you would have to be in my shoes to even begin to understand how much this effects me
so unless you read the first post in this thread and actually are around this kind of thing all the time you WILL never undersand
so trying to convince you is pointless
this statement is exactly why i don't beleive in religion
Former Christian? Baptism doesn't make you a Christian. Study the religion before you try to disprove it. You know, a lot of people like to know what they don't believe in. Not what they think they don't believe in.
I know its impossible to fully, or maybe even partially understand a religion you don't believe in, or are not a part of. But please, understand the religion and don't shout out crap about something YOU don't understand.
to put it more mildly I HATE RELIGION every single one conficts with my system of values
Man, you must have some low morals, if every religion conflicts with your moral beliefs. Man, I thought the Bible said lying, stealing, and murder were wrong... right? And considering the Bible doesn't say not to treat everyone with equality, I would say that you, are wrong. In fact, as stated in the other thread, your supposed to love everyone as you love yourself. Its a fact. Like I said above... don't shout out things, when you really don't understand.
Your simply going by what you have heard. Check it out for yourself.
so trying to convince you is pointless
I'll say that I read the first post, and the posts after that. And I would conclude that from the start, I ruled out convincing you. Not that I am really trying to, just to put my point across, as a Christian.
you would have to be in my shoes to even begin to understand how much this effects me
Right back at ya, pal.
so trying to convince you is pointless
As it is with every single person in this thread, so it makes this thread pointless.
you would have to be in my shoes to even begin to understand how much this effects me
I demand explination.
Former Christian? Baptism doesn't make you a Christian. Study the religion before you try to disprove it. You know, a lot of people like to know what they don't believe in. Not what they think they don't believe in.
I know its impossible to fully, or maybe even partially understand a religion you don't believe in, or are not a part of. But please, understand the religion and don't shout out crap about something YOU don't understand.
dude I used to got to church and the whole nine yards so DON'T lecture me I know both sides
Man, you must have some low morals, if every religion conflicts with your moral beliefs. Man, I thought the Bible said lying, stealing, and murder were wrong... right? And considering the Bible doesn't say not to treat everyone with equality, I would say that you, are wrong. In fact, as stated in the other thread, your supposed to love everyone as you love yourself. Its a fact. Like I said above... don't shout out things, when you really don't understand.
Your simply going by what you have heard. Check it out for yourself.
Right back at ya, pal.
you don't know me so DON'T make conclusions that you have no proof of
and I have read the bible cover to cover and lets say "GOD" is in tolerant of those who don't believe as he thinks they should. now how the puck is that treating other fairly I ask you. answer it isn't so how is your "god" right I ask. this is just one of the many values of mine that religion goes against.
and as for being gay is a sin who the heck said that and what makes you think he is right jeeze (yet another one of my values that is looked down on by religions)
and christianity leaves no room for you to question you beliefs who is that right It isn't (yet another one)
damnit I'm constently questioning everything as to its validity you can do that when you are following a religion.
so stop and just the fact that you are argueing with me is another sign of intolerance amoung religions
so how can you say that you are right you can't geeze
I demand explination.
this whole banning of gay marraiges is very much a part of my life plz reread my first post cuz I don't feel like retyping it.
this whole banning of gay marraiges is very much a part of my life plz reread my first post cuz I don't feel like retyping it.
I've reread your first post, and it still doesn't affect you. It affects your friends yes, but whether or not they're married shouldn't mean a thing to you.
dude I used to got to church and the whole nine yards so DON'T lecture me I know both sidesIt depends on when you left Christianity. Did you leave it in your teens, or did you leave a year or less ago? I'm just asking, as if you left in your teens when you would most likely start studying your faith in-depth, you still wouldn't know everything that can be be known to fully understand your faith.
and christianity leaves no room for you to question you beliefs...Heck, I sometimes question my beliefs, but I'm never labeled, "Heathen, BEGONE!" It's in human nature to question the existance of (a) God, so if I was straying away, I would pray to him to help me understand more, and if the nonexistance of God troubled me so much that I didn't believe in him, well, I could then just simply leave it.
so stop and just the fact that you are argueing with me is another sign of intolerance amoung religionsWait, so if I argue with my best friend over which MLB team is the best, one of us is intolerant? You're intolerant if you point-blank refuse to accept something. So while those in this thread who don't want gay marriage because of our religious views, we can most likely grudgingly accept it.
*yawns* When did this thread turn into such a flame war?
Point: the bible says man should not lay with man... and while that is a pretty sexist view point, we could go along with that to the other extreme and say that it says nothing about women laying with women.
Point: some religions, and old guys in robes behind pulpits say its a sin. No ones discounting that fact.
Point: in order for the US to retain its title of land of the free, and its claim that it doesnt have a state religion, it cant morally ban gays and lesbians from marrying or getting hitched or whatever you want to call it. Otherwise its hypocrisy. And if you thought about it honestly you would see this point... but Im repeating myself...
Saying you hate religions because you dont agree with their view points and values isnt really hypocrisy. Alot of religions have codes and "values" that I dislike and dont agree with, I dislike religions because they tend to drive a wedge in between the peoples they are trying to draw together, and this is largely because different people interprete holy scriptures differently leading to factions and sects and schisms and jihads and what have you.
My vote when I first cast it was to allow for gay marriages and not ban them .. not sure what I had voted originally though.
Its not anyones place to tell someone else how to live when you get down to it. The bible in the new testament, which is technically the only part youre supposed to pay attention to according to itself says that youre supposed to love your neighbour as yourself above any and all other commandments (paraphrased), and you cant very well do that if your full of hate and bigotry.
Anyway, this thread is boring now, so I doubt Ill be checking back (sorry Revan)...
I've reread your first post, and it still doesn't affect you. It affects your friends yes, but whether or not they're married shouldn't mean a thing to you.
and why the heck shouldn't I care weither or not they can marry what kind of friend would I be If i didn't
edit: I am leaveing this thread alone for a while
and why the heck shouldn't I care weither or not they can marry what kind of friend would I be If i didn't
The reason you shouldn't care is the same reason why Christians shouldn't care. It does not affect you. Wether or not gays marry should be entirely up to them, not what you or someone else wants them to do. Yes, you should be concerned about their rights but in the end this doesn't affect you at all.