ok ok ok, not all christians but there is a particular kind of christian i cannot stand.

Ive got no problem with any who go to church and live their good lives etc all nice and happy with their faith and go around doing no harm to anyone.

however what i cannot stand are any, i dont care which branch of christianity they are, catholic, anglican whatever, that come to your door/phone you up/harass you in some other manner about their faith. Who the hell do these people think they are? turning up and saying to some poor person that their way of living is wrong and that the christian way is the right way is downright disgusting. right when youre in the middle of watching a movie too.

i have never had any other religion come to my door and tell me that im living life the wrong way, they just let me get on with it which is a very nice arrangement for all concerned.

i think if i went to a church and started to say that my way of living is correct and theirs is not (i dont believe that by the way, but equally theirs is not better than mine) id probably be threatened with arrest, but if they come to my door theyve got a perfect right to be here.

we live in a society where people are supposed to be free to believe what they want free of harassment or criticism, and certain christians going around telling everyone that theres only one acceptable faith is absolutely unacceptable.

to make it totally clear, ive got nothing particular against christianity but i do have a very big problem with those christians who believe theyve got a right to tell everyone else how to live

Originally posted by Leper Messiah
Ive got no problem with any who go to church and live their good lives etc all nice and happy with their faith and go around doing no harm to anyone.

Indeed; people of any religion who behave like this receive my support.


Originally posted by Leper Messiah
i think if i went to a church and started to say that my way of living is correct and theirs is not (i dont believe that by the way, but equally theirs is not better than mine) id probably be threatened with arrest, but if they come to my door theyve got a perfect right to be here.

Wrong. They've no right to harass you. If you think you're right in the fact they're harassing you, and you want to do something about it, go for a lawsuit. Sue them, I'm all for it.

Originally posted by Leper Messiah
to make it totally clear, ive got nothing particular against christianity but i do have a very big problem with those christians who believe theyve got a right to tell everyone else how to live

Hah, how many Christians have I seen on the road who paste "Believe in Jesus or burn in Hell for eternity!" on their windows of their cars? How many have actually tried to preach their beliefs to people who make it totally clear they want nothing of the sort? Sad to say, the answer is: plenty, all over the world. The only thing I despise of some (not all) Christians is their inability to respect other's beliefs.

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Wrong. They have no right to be there, if the property is your property, and if you deem it harassment. Sue them, I'm all for it.


In Britain if you manhandle them off the premises (i assure you ive met a few who have refused to leave otherwise) you can be arrested, and if you call the police and tell them there are christians at your door that wont go away youll most likely be told to stop wasting their time.

Originally posted by Leper Messiah
In Britain if you manhandle them off the premises (i assure you ive met a few who have refused to leave otherwise) you can be arrested, and if you call the police and tell them there are christians at your door that wont go away youll most likely be told to stop wasting their time.

Really? Then start an Atheist club or something and start preaching to Christians that their way of life is wrong, that there is no Jesus, then someone'll take you to court. Your argument will be: They do the same thing to us, why can't we?

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Really? Then start an Atheist club or something and start preaching to Christians that their way of life is wrong, that there is no Jesus, then someone'll take you to court. Your argument will be: They do the same thing to us, why can't we?

ah but you see i wont do that because if they want to be christian they can be christian, im not gonna harass them about it just like i dont want them harassing me about their religion.

Originally posted by Leper Messiah
ok ok ok, not all christians but there is a particular kind of christian i cannot stand.

Ive got no problem with any who go to church and live their good lives etc all nice and happy with their faith and go around doing no harm to anyone.

however what i cannot stand are any, i dont care which branch of christianity they are, catholic, anglican whatever, that come to your door/phone you up/harass you in some other manner about their faith. Who the hell do these people think they are? turning up and saying to some poor person that their way of living is wrong and that the christian way is the right way is downright disgusting. right when youre in the middle of watching a movie too.

i have never had any other religion come to my door and tell me that im living life the wrong way, they just let me get on with it which is a very nice arrangement for all concerned.

i think if i went to a church and started to say that my way of living is correct and theirs is not (i dont believe that by the way, but equally theirs is not better than mine) id probably be threatened with arrest, but if they come to my door theyve got a perfect right to be here.

we live in a society where people are supposed to be free to believe what they want free of harassment or criticism, and certain christians going around telling everyone that theres only one acceptable faith is absolutely unacceptable.

to make it totally clear, ive got nothing particular against christianity but i do have a very big problem with those christians who believe theyve got a right to tell everyone else how to live

Correction: catholics do not go door to door telling people that Convert or go to hell, is the only option, and if you have had a catholic do that to you, then go to the bishop and he will put a stop to it. I am catholic and if you don't go to church then that is your choice, but alot of people do and they might find this post a little insulting, since you just grouped the whole christian standerd toghather. also that by puting this post up you just did the same thing that the guys that go door to door do!

Originally posted by JoeBeforeJedi
Correction: catholics do not go door to door telling people that Convert or go to hell, is the only option, and if you have had a catholic do that to you, then go to the bishop and he will put a stop to it. I am catholic and if you don't go to church then that is your choice, but alot of people do and they might find this post a little insulting, since you just grouped the whole christian standerd toghather. also that by puting this post up you just did the same thing that the guys that go door to door do!

not so, because ive said nothing about my own beliefs, and i certainly havnt said theyre better than anyone elses. all ive done is establish the problems i have with having people tell me that their way of life is better than mine.

i apologise for the reference to catholics if it is indeed true that they dont do these things, but ive had so many visits and calls over time its difficult to keep track, especially wheen they all say much the same thing in different ways.

In two years I've had precisely two groups stop by my door with religious messages.

One time it was a new church that opened in town (Baptists) who gave me a little leaflet about "being saved." They asked me if I went to church, I said yes. They said I was welcome at their's anytime if I wanted, I said thank you and they were on their way.

The other time it was some Jehovah's Witnesses. Unfortunately I wasn't really prepared to invite them in and discuss, which could have been interesting, so they just asked me if I thought reading the Bible was a good idea, and I said "sure" so they wished me well and were on their way.

Pretty uneventful.

As far as doing that, yeah, people make fun of that, and salesmen of any stripe can be annoying. But it's free speech, and you have the option not to answer or to turn them away, just like Telemarketers. Now I can understand harassment and all that, but I haven't experienced it.

If somebody is on your property and refuses to leave when asked, then there's a problem. Again, I haven't run into that, but if it does, they should be reported to the authorities and/or to their organization. After all, how many converts are they going to win by being rude and annoying to people?

If people want to talk about religion in the public sphere, I say let them. It's part of free speech and freedom of religion. It's good if people can discuss and debate things, and that's not something that needs to be limited to academics. Though I will admit a lot of people are sadly misinformed about things and this can lead to some divisions and misunderstandings between your average Joes and even some preachers.

Now some folks like that "Reverend" Phelps really annoy me (did he read that part about praying for sinners and loving your enemies?), but ah well...

Unpopular speech is also protected. Though there's some debate over whether that covers "hate speech" (I know Canada has some issues with that, over here it's more over supposed "indecency"). Still, when it comes to private citizens expressing their views, there's a wide latitude.

As to door-to-door preachers, some churches basically require people to do a certain amount of door-to-door "missionary" work, and (IIRC) this includes the Latter Day Saints Church (Mormons) and Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower). But there are exceptions, like the Baptist guys I mentioned with their new church. I've never seen a catholic group go door to door just for that (unless connected with some charity or something).

coming straight from a christian's point of view, the idea of trying to force religion down someone's throat is completely unbiblical. now, i'm not sure what denomination the relatively few christians are in this forum, but i do know that the bible specifically states that God and God alone can actually convict someone of sin and then save them from it (its in romans ;) ).

these people that try to force you to convert are actually being quite disobedient themselves to God's own word. now, there is a difference to those that offer it and those that force it. those that offer it are being used by God to declare the truth (whether or not you believe in my truth). this is also stated directly in scripture.

don't forget that these people that try to force you to convert are also showing you exactly what God is not. more often then not, they say something like 'oh, since you're not saved, you're gonna die and go straight to hell'. well, this arguement, although biblically based, is using the concept of fear to drive someone towards God. this is also doesn't line up with the word. i've always found that it is God's love for us that drives us towards him, rather than his anger or our fear of punishment from him.

Leper Messiah, I understand your point and agree with Kurgan too. I am a Christian and understand that you did not mean to generalize too broadly.

As with any group or religion, there are those who are extremists. There are some Christians who do not understand that their actions lend to opinions like yours.

A good example is those who are familiar with Jesus' word "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I personally know some who can pick out even the most minimal wrong in another and fail to remember "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." They pick and choose, I guess.

And what's the worst is when some religious person says "you're going to hell if you blah blah..."

It also seems that some religious people are very stubborn when debating about issues relating to their belief. Just read some of the threads right here in the Senate Chambers *cough* Abortion *cough* and see how some of the religious are forcing their beliefs on the state.

If you are religious, please don't take offense by my post. It's just a general observation.

Originally posted by Leper Messiah
ok ok ok, not all christians but there is a particular kind of christian i cannot stand.

Ive got no problem with any who go to church and live their good lives etc all nice and happy with their faith and go around doing no harm to anyone.

however what i cannot stand are any, i dont care which branch of christianity they are, catholic, anglican whatever, that come to your door/phone you up/harass you in some other manner about their faith. Who the hell do these people think they are? turning up and saying to some poor person that their way of living is wrong and that the christian way is the right way is downright disgusting. right when youre in the middle of watching a movie too.

i have never had any other religion come to my door and tell me that im living life the wrong way, they just let me get on with it which is a very nice arrangement for all concerned.

i think if i went to a church and started to say that my way of living is correct and theirs is not (i dont believe that by the way, but equally theirs is not better than mine) id probably be threatened with arrest, but if they come to my door theyve got a perfect right to be here.

we live in a society where people are supposed to be free to believe what they want free of harassment or criticism, and certain christians going around telling everyone that theres only one acceptable faith is absolutely unacceptable.

to make it totally clear, ive got nothing particular against christianity but i do have a very big problem with those christians who believe theyve got a right to tell everyone else how to live Im Roman Catholic and my church doesn't go door to door telling people to convert or go to hell. Hey why don't you do some studying before judging peoples religions. You just insulted every Christian on lucasforums by saying that. Not trying to Rant but thats just insulting.

Were still friends right:(

Originally posted by TK-8252
If you are religious, please don't take offense by my post. It's just a general observation.

If you notice, I didn't mention any religions, BTW.

Originally posted by JediMasterDude
You just insulted every Christian on lucasforums by saying that.

No he didn't, he only insulted Christians who go door to door trying to convert others. :dozey:

Originally posted by JediMasterDude
Im Roman Catholic and my church doesn't go door to door telling people to convert or go to hell. Hey why don't you do some studying before judging peoples religions. You just insulted every Christian on lucasforums by saying that. Not trying to Rant but thats just insulting.

Were still friends right:(

I already said if i got it wrong about the Catholics then i apologise. I am a confirmed Catholic (as you might have guessed my faith and i have since parted ways) and i could have sworn i remembered my church doing things like that. it was a long time ago though and they coulda been charity collecting or somethin like that.

I didnt insult every christian on the board, but im very much against having the way to live my life dictated to me by any person or religion. also for me to insult you and other christians who dont do what ive described i have to mean offence, i dont so therefore that means that you misunderstood, rather than i insulted you.

There are worse things religious people can do than come to your house and try to talk to you. You could test this by taking your infidel-ass to the middle east.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
There are worse things religious people can do than come to your house and try to talk to you. You could test this by taking your infidel-ass to the middle east.

muslims have never hassled me personally in the way christians have. in fact i believe their holy book (Koran?) says in it something to the effect of "to you your religion and to me mine". you only get violence and terrorism cos people manipulate it as others manipulate christianity and before you say that its not the same thing consider that in muslim eyes in the middle east the christian world is waging a war on it, just the same as some in the west believe that muslims are waging a war against us.

Yes, people are only kidnapped and beheaded because Islam is manipulated.:rolleyes: Oh look! Another I hate only Christian based faith in the senate! How novel! To make this a real senate thread though, we need someone to come in and say over half of America is stupid and fat.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Yes, people are only kidnapped and beheaded because Islam is manipulated.:rolleyes: those assclowns have nothing to do with the islamic faith, their acts themselves are against islamic law.


Every side has extremists. Every side has okay people. But mostly every side sucks. :)

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Oh look! Another I hate only Christian based faith in the senate! How novel! To make this a real senate thread though, we need someone to come in and say over half of America is stupid and fat.


Stupid Americans (http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm)

Fat Americans (http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/trend/prev_char.htm).

Ok, here's the deal. I'm a Christian and don't go door to door. I understand that there are probably people who claim to be Christians who do so... in fact, I know for sure they do... what I'm questioning is if they truly are.

In some cases, I'd say they're not. Out of personal experience, I say that some Mormons claim to be Christians. I had somebody come to my door and do just that. My sister has some Mormon friends, but when she was just getting to know them, they told her they were Christians.

My point? I guess it's very simply that the people you are annoyed by may not even be Christians at all.

The only reason I'm going to the homes of people I don't know is because of service projects. There's one that my youth group does that we call Rake 'n Love. (Sort of a spin off of Rake 'n Run, if you've ever heard of that.) We're not there to preach. We're there to help people who can't rake their own yards in the fall.

Another example: Servant's Camp. We go and help various places that need things done. Again, no preaching involved. Our hard work and kindness are the only things we leave behind.


After this, you must think I'm sort of scolding you for what you've said. Let me assure you this is not the case. I'm just showing you the side of Christianity that is not leaning either of the two ways you spoke of. Not preaching, not completely ignoring the needs around us.

Hope I've helped.

Wildjedi

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Yes, people are only kidnapped and beheaded because Islam is manipulated.:rolleyes:


I'm so glad that the United States didn't have to endure similar extremist attitude at any point in its development as a democracy. I'm sure xianity wasn't cited as a justification for kidnappings, lynchings, and mutilations bottom of page (http://www.s6k.com/real/tcotn.htm).

Originally posted by wildjedi
Ok, here's the deal. I'm a Christian and don't go door to door. I understand that there are probably people who claim to be Christians who do so... in fact, I know for sure they do... what I'm questioning is if they truly are.

In some cases, I'd say they're not.

Not another "those aren't true christians" argument.

Xian denominations have been witnessing and conducting missionary work for centuries. Many denominations from Baptist to Methodist to Lutheran to Catholic to Mormon to Jehovah's Witness. And nearly all those in between.

In many cases, these missionaries disrupted and destroyed entire cultures and ways of life through various means. From forcing native and indigenous children to participate in religious indoctrination to trading food and supplies for the same indoctrination. Missionaries have a way of popping up like vultures when they know a given culture needs them the most (famine, war, catastrophe, etc.) then trading their god for aid.

Apologists can deny such practices exist, but from the perspective of many indigenous and aboriginal peoples, the only way to feed their family or get medical aid was to listen to some cult leader put down the indigenous worldview in favor for a more accepted cult of christianity.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Yes, people are only kidnapped and beheaded because Islam is manipulated.:rolleyes: Oh look! Another I hate only Christian based faith in the senate! How novel! To make this a real senate thread though, we need someone to come in and say over half of America is stupid and fat.

from the muslim perspective in Iraq, the christian world kills indiscriminately by the hundreds.


by wildjedi
The only reason I'm going to the homes of people I don't know is because of service projects. There's one that my youth group does that we call Rake 'n Love. (Sort of a spin off of Rake 'n Run, if you've ever heard of that.) We're not there to preach. We're there to help people who can't rake their own yards in the fall.


when i first read that, the first thing that came to mind was when a door to door salesman (whom i also have a problem with) comes to the door often the first thing he says is "im not selling anything" however i see thats not quite what ur saying, in fact im not sure of the relevance of this example at all as it surely involves being asked to come in the first place

Originally posted by wildjedi
My point? I guess it's very simply that the people you are annoyed by may not even be Christians at all.
I grow tired of this they're not christian BS. Christianity is about understanding and trying to follow in the path of christ, accepting him as your saviour. When you do that, you are christian. I grow tired of this apologetic BS of "oh they aren't christian, we're not like that we do this, not that"
Christians that hate on other christians make me sick. Just like the Muslims that hate on other muslims, and the Jews that hate on other jews.


I have yet to see or have a single jew or muslim or buddhist or hindu person go up to another persons, or my door and try to convert them and/or me.

It's always christians, they come to the door you tell them you haven't accepted christ as your personal saviour and they argue with you about why you should. I grow weary of having to explain myself to these badgery, annoying pests. If a jew or muslim or buddhist or hindu did it, I'd tell them the same thing.

Sure I got things against christians, I have a problem with all religions. But there has only been one religion that comes to my door 4-5 times a week and pesters the hell out of me to accept a person as my saviour and even thrown their holy book at my f**king head. The day a muslim, jew, buddhist or hindu throws a holy book at my head and tries to convert me is the day I make a thread or comment about it.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
Sure I got things against christians, I have a problem with all religions. But there has only been one religion that comes to my door 4-5 times a week and pesters the hell out of me to accept a person as my saviour and even thrown their holy book at my f**king head. The day a muslim, jew, buddhist or hindu throws a holy book at my head and tries to convert me is the day I make a thread or comment about it.

Werd...

...except that I may be accepting Buddism...

...so once I have, I'm gonna come a knockin!:D

Originally posted by InsaneSith
I grow tired of this they're not christian BS. Christianity is about understanding and trying to follow in the path of christ, accepting him as your saviour. When you do that, you are christian. I grow tired of this apologetic BS of "oh they aren't christian, we're not like that we do this, not that"
Christians that hate on other christians make me sick. Just like the Muslims that hate on other muslims, and the Jews that hate on other jews.


I have yet to see or have a single jew or muslim or buddhist or hindu person go up to another persons, or my door and try to convert them and/or me.

It's always christians, they come to the door you tell them you haven't accepted christ as your personal saviour and they argue with you about why you should. I grow weary of having to explain myself to these badgery, annoying pests. If a jew or muslim or buddhist or hindu did it, I'd tell them the same thing.

Sure I got things against christians, I have a problem with all religions. But there has only been one religion that comes to my door 4-5 times a week and pesters the hell out of me to accept a person as my saviour and even thrown their holy book at my f**king head. The day a muslim, jew, buddhist or hindu throws a holy book at my head and tries to convert me is the day I make a thread or comment about it.

Hehe, that's the way I feel about it too. I completely detest the Christians who come up to me and tell me that I'm going to Hell for not accepting Christ. Why do I only say Christians? Because they're the only bloody religion which bangs on my door, sticks on me like a leech and starts pestering and pestering and pestering me with their rules and regulations when I'm perfectly happy with mine. He**, sometimes when I am forced to listen to them eagerly preaching about going to Christ, I feel as though I want to send them to Christ 50 years before their term is up. Oh and, Buddhists don't have holy books, because Gautama Siddhartha never wrote one, or, "god-breathed it into man". :rolleyes: Unless you're talking about the impure Buddhists. What's all this god-breathing nonsense anyway?

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Buddhists don't have holy books, because Gautama Siddhartha never wrote one, or, "god-breathed it into man". :rolleyes: Unless you're talking about the impure Buddhists. What's all this god-breathing nonsense anyway? actually there are certain sects of the buddhist faith which have made books, and even regard buddha as a god. Also, the scriptures explaining the lifestyle of buddhism are considered in the term holy book.

<-- was a "freelance" buddhist for 3 years.

God-breathed is religious folks trying to give legitimacy to their bigotry :)

Originally posted by InsaneSith
actually there are certain sects of the buddhist faith which have made books, and even regard buddha as a god. Also, the scriptures explaining the lifestyle of buddhism are considered in the term holy book.

<-- was a "freelance" buddhist for 3 years.

God-breathed is religious folks trying to give legitimacy to their bigotry :)

Hmm, that's true, never thought of that. But the purer sects know that Buddha did not want himself regarded as a God, so they follow it, which is why I regard it as more of a philosophy than a religion, and why I follow it.

Ah, god-breathed is the thing where people say God told man about the bible thingie, eh?

I grow tired of this they're not christian BS. Christianity is about understanding and trying to follow in the path of christ, accepting him as your saviour. When you do that, you are christian.Maybe in America. In my experience, being a Christian means observing Christian values. ie: If you throw a book at anyone's head, you're not being christian. :D

actually there are certain sects of the buddhist faith which have made books, and even regard buddha as a god. This is not true Buddhism. Buddhism is about following in Buddha's path, not idolizing the man himself.

Sure there are breakaway sects of all religions that give those religions a bad name... Like hard-line muslims give Islam a bad name. And... America gives Christianity a bad name. :D

j/k

Sort of...

Originally posted by Spider AL
Maybe in America. In my experience, being a Christian means observing Christian values. ie: If you throw a book at anyone's head, you're not being christian. :D

indeed.

Originally posted by Spider AL
This is not true Buddhism. Buddhism is about following in Buddha's path, not idolizing the man himself.

this is true to a point, as it does go against one of the many things buddha himself spoke against, but in essence them following the guidelines technically would make them buddhist, but not buddhism of the most true and purest form.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Sure there are breakaway sects of all religions that give those religions a bad name... Like hard-line muslims give Islam a bad name. And... America gives Christianity a bad name. :D
exactly.

Hard-line fundamental extremeists ruin the good in everything. But christianity has lately been running a muck. And Islam has started down that path too. I really genuinely fear for the planet, should more religions like this appear, or more religions follow this path, we're in for a hell of a global war.

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Hmm, that's true, never thought of that. But the purer sects know that Buddha did not want himself regarded as a God, so they follow it, which is why I regard it as more of a philosophy than a religion, and why I follow it.

in essence it is a philosophy. but in technical standings it's a religion but a deity-less one. There is still a figure-head, but not one with hocus pocus powers. Just one with incredible wisdom. :)

I have seperated myself from the classification of buddhism because technically it's designated as a religion, but I still live my life by it's standards.
Buddhism is about change, that's why I think it in all sense of the word is the purest and most near perfect "religion" in the world. It's about acceptance, responsiblity for ones self and the well being of those around you.
Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Ah, god-breathed is the thing where people say God told man about the bible thingie, eh?
Indeed. God supposedly whispered this great book (of many flaws) to many men over many different time periods.

Indeed. God supposedly whispered this great book (of many flaws) to many men over many different time periods.I think I have discovered what separates us from fundamentalists. They have no BS-o-meter! :D

I have seperated myself from the classification of buddhism because technically it's designated as a religion, but I still live my life by it's standards.It shouldn't be called a religion at all, as it involves no supernatural object of worship. Or worship at all. Or the supernatural.

But hey, people are silly eh.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
in essence it is a philosophy. but in technical standings it's a religion but a deity-less one. There is still a figure-head, but not one with hocus pocus powers. Just one with incredible wisdom. :)

I have seperated myself from the classification of buddhism because technically it's designated as a religion, but I still live my life by it's standards.
Buddhism is about change, that's why I think it in all sense of the word is the purest and most near perfect "religion" in the world. It's about acceptance, responsiblity for ones self and the well being of those around you.

I consider philosophies (in which I include Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism) the better ways to lead your life, because it does not put into one's mind a sky daddy residing in the clouds who will spank you (for eternity) if you do badly, and reward you if you do well. Some people are afraid of these Gods, and choose to follow the rules, in fear of the "spankings". I prefer true motivation to do good, like philosophies, because they do not include any rewards at the end of the day.

Originally posted by Spider AL
This is not true Buddhism. Buddhism is about following in Buddha's path, not idolizing the man himself.

They're both "true" Buddhists. One is Theravada Buddhism and the other is Mahayana Buddhism.

The former is also known as "little raft" and encompasses a minority of Buddhists. It's the hardest path to follow and requires stricter demands than the latter, the "big raft," in which believers can more easily follow the example of Buddha.

To the Theravada, Buddha was a great teacher and a saint. prayer is typically not practiced, there is little or no ritual, bodhi (wisdom) is the main feature of enlightenment, and there is little emphasis on the metaphysical. Theravadists believe that there are no gods to help us and that each person must work out his or her own answers and salvation.

To the Mahayana, Buddha was a savior and is lord. Prayer is encouraged and importance is placed upon ritual. Karma (compassion) is the important feature of enlightenment and the power of god is everywhere and is available to anyone. The individual is connected to all life and the metaphysical is stressed.

Constant commitment is necessary for the Theravadist and is usually considered the way of monks and nuns. The religion is available to all among the Mahayanists and more accessable with less commitment.

Thus: "little raft" and "big raft."

A study of the 8-fold path as part of the 4 Noble Truths and a decision to live one's life in this manner would rival even the best of christians as to who lived in the more humble and righteous manner.

They're both "true" Buddhists. One is Theravada Buddhism and the other is Mahayana Buddhism. This is not an issue of personal perspective. "Buddhism" implies following the path of Buddha, not revering buddha as a deity. Buddha, in his teachings, specifically scotched any idea of himself as a deity to be prayed to. One cannot pray to buddha any more than one can "teach" Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

If I regarded Buddha as a holy cabbage that told me to eat cabbage at every meal, I would not be practicing true buddhism. Likewise, the big raft is merely a total cop-out so that the majority of people uninterested in attaining nirvana can feel better about themselves when they slap some incense in a bucket twice a month and call themselves buddhists.

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
I prefer true motivation to do good, like philosophies, because they do not include any rewards at the end of the day. well buddhism does give you enlightenment when you find peace within yourself. This could be considered the ultimate reward, but it takes personal sacrifice and hard work, and multiple lifetimes. ;)

The point of buddhism is to show that freeing oneself from all desire is the way to true happiness. This doesn't mean one can't have sex, but one cannot give in to lust, one must learn to suppress lust. Lust is one of the hardest desires to suppress because it comes from within, and costs no money to obtain.

In the end buddhism is about change, changing to make yourself and all others happy. To think of others before yourself. To change so that we can all be at peace.

Originally posted by Spider AL
This is not an issue of personal perspective. "Buddhism" implies following the path of Buddha, not revering buddha as a deity. Buddha, in his teachings, specifically scotched any idea of himself as a deity to be prayed to. One cannot pray to buddha any more than one can "teach" Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

If I regarded Buddha as a holy cabbage that told me to eat cabbage at every meal, I would not be practicing true buddhism. Likewise, the big raft is merely a total cop-out so that the majority of people uninterested in attaining nirvana can feel better about themselves when they slap some incense in a bucket twice a month and call themselves buddhists.

I agree with your statement, but you know, many are unaware of Theravada Buddhism. They think that their own way of worship is what every Buddhist around the world does. Oh and, I didn't really understand the one about Buddha being a holy cabbage, unless you mean that you don't eat cabbage for every meal.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
well buddhism does give you enlightenment when you find peace within yourself. This could be considered the ultimate reward, but it takes personal sacrifice and hard work, and multiple lifetimes.

The point of buddhism is to show that freeing oneself from all desire is the way to true happiness. This doesn't mean one can't have sex, but one cannot give in to lust, one must learn to suppress lust. Lust is one of the hardest desires to suppress because it comes from within, and costs no money to obtain.

In the end buddhism is about change, changing to make yourself and all others happy. To think of others before yourself. To change so that we can all be at peace.


Hehe, when I spoke of reward, I meant like, one's soul going to Heaven or something. I don't believe in souls and Heaven and Hell, but I do believe in inner peace and understanding.

Anthropologically speaking, the "big raft" is probably a method of reaching out to the larger populace when it became apparent tha that the stricter version of Theravadism wasn't followed en masse because of the extreme nature of the belief.

Indeed, there is a bit of research (Pascal Boyer, Villayanor Ramachandran (sp?)) that indicates religious thought is hard-wired in H. sapiens, making it difficult for counterintuitive concepts of "no deity" or "no god" to provide salvation or eternal life far too difficult for populations where pantheons of deities exist to explain, give comfort, etc. (per Durkheim, Tyler, Freud, et al).

Meeting these populations half-way with a deity and rituals offered a way to get much of the Buddhist message to the masses.

But it's really not up to us to assign labels to populations of people who already have their own perspective of who they are. They see themselves as "true" Buddhists in the same way as Catholics see themselves as "true" Christians. In the end, they're all just a superstitious lot. :)

Oh and, I didn't really understand the one about Buddha being a holy cabbageOh it was just saying: "if my idea of buddhism was that buddha was a holy cabbage, well... that wouldn't be true buddhism. Nor is the big raft truly buddhism."

but you know, many are unaware of Theravada Buddhism. They think that their own way of worship is what every Buddhist around the world does.Yeah, sad innit.

it is sad, but I haven't seen it reach the scale that christianity and islam have on condemning those that don't follow their ideal of christianity or islam. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen on the scale of those two. I'm not even touching the jews. I've seen some jewish people get into a big ass fight over different opinions on what makes a jew and what's key to being a real jew.


those guys are pretty vicious to eachother <_<

those guys are pretty vicious to eachother <_<Not to mention the Palestinians... :¬:

That's another debate.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Not to mention the Palestinians... :¬:

That's another debate. grawr, you just like doing that to me don't you :xp:

Originally posted by SkinWalker
I'm so glad that the United States didn't have to endure similar extremist attitude at any point in its development as a democracy. I'm sure xianity wasn't cited as a justification for kidnappings, lynchings, and mutilations bottom of page (http://www.s6k.com/real/tcotn.htm).

Ah yes, sarcasm! I have some experience with that myself. Allow me to demonstrate:
Are you trying to imply that because blacks were lynched in this country, that it's perfectly fine to behead people today in another country? If that's the case, why not just bring back lynching too?

And for you to say that there is something wrong with Christian missionary humanitarian work, because as they're feeding and clothing people, they're talking about their God, is laughable. You make it sound like people are "forced" to listen to religious babble, and if they don't convert, they're made to sit in a corner naked and starving while the nitwit, irrational, herd mentality folks live in hog heaven, getting fat. Simply not true. But truely laughable. And BFD if it is true. It's their food. If I have a sack of rice, and you're hungry and want to eat it, but want to just grab the food and scram without hearing a word from me, then piss on you, I say. Don't eat. Sit in your corner. Quote some nonsense statistics to yourself. And by all means continue your "rational", (however hunger induced short) "scientific" existence. The cult and I will be over here eating.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Are you trying to imply that because blacks were lynched in this country, that it's perfectly fine to behead people today in another country? If that's the case, why not just bring back lynching too?

What I was trying to imply was that the argument that Islam is the reason why people are brutal toward the innocent is a fallacy. The reality is that it is one group's ability to justify brutality for the greater good of the group. When it comes to this kind of brutality, religion is only a means of perversion to add to the justification.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
And for you to say that there is something wrong with Christian missionary humanitarian work, because as they're feeding and clothing people, they're talking about their God, is laughable.

I've yet to see any missionary "humanitarian" work that didn't have the ultimate goal of brainwashing the indigenous population with their own brand of cult. You show me one xian "humanitarian" organization that thinks it helping a region, and I'll gladly debunk you of the delusion that their cause is altruistic. If I can't, I'll say so.

Originally posted by SkinWalker
You show me one xian "humanitarian" organization that thinks it helping a region, and I'll gladly debunk you of the delusion that their cause is altruistic. If I can't, I'll say so.

I'm sure I can say without hesitation that they all "think" they're helping whatever region. So no need to show you a specific one. So debunk away. Or not, I'm thinking. As far as your opinion on whether or not they actually help by feeding and clothing people, I fail to see what grounds for debate you have to stand on. Feeding people helps people. Clothing people helps people.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
it is sad, but I haven't seen it reach the scale that christianity and islam have on condemning those that don't follow their ideal of christianity or islam. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen on the scale of those two. I'm not even touching the jews. I've seen some jewish people get into a big ass fight over different opinions on what makes a jew and what's key to being a real jew.


those guys are pretty vicious to eachother <_<

I know what you mean there. It's really sad because at least some Jews do consider themselves a "race," and it's comparable to some folks in the American "Black Community" who get into arguments about "not being black enough" etc. This is simply racism, and very sad indeed.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
I'm sure I can say without hesitation that they all "think" they're helping whatever region. So no need to show you a specific one. So debunk away. Or not, I'm thinking. As far as your opinion on whether or not they actually help by feeding and clothing people, I fail to see what grounds for debate you have to stand on. Feeding people helps people. Clothing people helps people.

Guessing people's motives is a tricky business I agree.

I've heard the opinion expressed that ALL humans are always self-centered, no matter what. No exceptions. With such a mindset is it impossible to show them that Xians (followers of X, that is, Xianity, of which I am a member) or any other group is really doing "good."

Of course, a question put to those folks would be this:

Does it matter WHY somebody is doing good in the world?

If Hitler, instead of killing millions of people helped millions of people and took care of widows and orphans and fed the poor, would it matter if he was a total jerk in his mind?

Maybe that's a bad example. Bill Gates is hated by a lot of people, but he gave 3 billion dollars to charity. 3 BILLION! That's more money than most people see in their entire lives, including celebrities! Even if he has tons more money and he spends it all selfishly, he still did some good for the world, and in fact more good than a lot of people could. I'd hazard to forecast that none of the 60,000+ members of this forum, COMBINED will ever make as much money in their lifetimes as Bill Gates has given to charity. That doesn't mean he's a perfect person that must be loved by all, but why would a person want to argue that his act means nothing to the world around him?

So in the end, if one wants to argue that Xians are doing good just because they think it will win them converts and because God will let them go to heaven as a reward for what they do on earth, and therefore they are self-centered, all that says is that they are admitting that they (those non-Xians attacking Xianity) too are self centered, and (I'm guessing) that they (non-Xians) are "not hypocritical" because they (non-Xians) admit that they do it out of self-interest.

But again, you can easily define everything as self interest, as an ingrained biological control, in which case there really is no argument either way. Everybody is the same. I'd also argue that just as all Xians are not the same, all atheists are not the same. There is no monolithic "Xian" or "Atheist" mind that can be easily attacked and knocked down in favor of the other. Ditto for any other group you can find. There is always a spectrum of belief and behavior, since that's how different people can be.

Xians aren't the only people who do chartiable things. And to those that do, I am glad for the good it does. If atheists give to charity, that's great too. Their contribution isn't any less because they don't share my beliefs. But there seems to be a double-standard here. "If people in my group do something good it's good. If people not in my group do something good it's not good and they must have a negative ulterior motive." I would discourage such a belief since it's an unfounded assumption that assumes ill-intent where none need exist.

PS: I assume that Skinwalker's gross generalizations and baiting are in no way intended to draw me into a debate with him.
; )

followers of X, that is, Xianity, of which I am a memberCould you clarify, are you Christian and using shorthand, or a member of the newly made-up online religion also called Xianity, or something else?

Originally posted by Spider AL
Could you clarify, are you Christian and using shorthand, or a member of the newly made-up online religion also called Xianity, or something else?

Definition #3 at this link.... (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3Axian&btnG=Search)

"Abbreviation for the normal English word "Christian." Not a pejorative, the word often is used in online chatrooms, bulletin boards and E-mail. Sometimes erroneously appears as Xtian"