I'm sure this has probably been debated quite a lot before but you'll have to forgive me because i'm new to the forums. So... Manny doesn't seem to have been a bad soul in life judging by his actions in death so why was he made to be a reaper?
My theories are that maybe when you die it might change your outlook on "life".
Or possibly you are made to forget so you don't spend your time looking back and cursing your actions instead of helping other souls.
i don't find either of these ideas really satisfying so if there are any other theories out there i'd like to hear them
I think Manny has a good soul but his circumstances in his life may have caused him to do some bad things. He may have had to steal to survive or he accidently killed someone, I dont know. Life is very complex and the motives and circumstances of a persons actions can be even more complex.
It's mentioned a few times that Manny is working off a 'debt' at the DOD. I think one of the most interesting unanswered questions in Grim is, what exactly did Manny do wrong in his life to deserve this debt?
The story is cooler for never telling us and maintaining the mystery really. A similar thing that springs to mind is in the film Pulp Fiction, we never see what's in the briefcase. Leaving little things like that to the imagination is always neat.
I reckon manny was a hell raiser! lol He probably seemed a better soul in the game because he'd been working a the DOD for ages! learnt the error of his ways, if ya like lol
I think it's a great mystery, and I like it just the way it is: Mysterious.
He says in the game that he doesn't know what he did. That's interesting, as it implies that he didn't really do anything blatantly wrong. Plus his conduct in the Land of the Dead shows that he's a good guy, he's just seems sad, yet accepting, that he's stuck paying off a debt.
But it's not only that I like the mystery that I don't want to guess why, it's also that it's ridiculous to even attempt to theorize on.
Think about it. What would we be guessing? His entire life? What do we have to go on? He's in moral debt, he doesn't even know why, and it would have been different if he had had a car like the bone wagon when he was alive.
The possibilities are endless! And there is no way to validate anything.
Originally posted by JawaJoey
The possibilities are endless! And there is no way to validate anything.
Which is just why we all love it!
as it's said somewhere above it maintains the mystery of the game. I don't think it would of worked if they explained manny's whole story.
I like to think that he didn't actually do anything wrong, he was sent to the DOD for a reason. Ie, perhaps, rooting out the corruption? Who knows, this is the higher powers we're talking about here. ;)
~Sal
Y'know, upon reflection i think i do like it better as a mystery.
but that doesn't mean i'm going to stop asking dumb questions like ... uh .. so whos got a theory on why Glottis is orange?
anyone?
What? Weren't you guys paying attention to the story? The villains were taking away easy passage through the Land of the Dead from innocent people. Manny was one of those people who received a fate that was undeserved. He didn't know what he had done wrong because he didn't do anything wrong- the evil bureaucracy screwed him over.
No, that doesn't work because Manny was at once a star salesman. It doesn't make sense that later he isn't getting any sales if he was screwed over from day one.
~Sal
I always got the impression that Manny actually did something bad, and then redeemed himself by fighting against corruption. I like him a lot better that way.
Manny says he doesn't know how he screwed up. He could have done nothing true, but as in, he did nothing with his life. He seems the drab and beaten down type at the beginning, maybe that's what he was like in life??
Theories, theories...
~Sal
Or maybe he did something, but didn't know it. Like... maybe he was in a helicopter and accidentaly dropped a really heavy rock which hit someone and killed that person. In a way it was a murder, even if Manny didn't mean it and never heard about it. The DOD could have decided to be bureaucratic and make him a Reaper because of an accident he didn't know about.
That sounds... silly. :p
Originally posted by EmTeeZ
What? Weren't you guys paying attention to the story? The villains were taking away easy passage through the Land of the Dead from innocent people. Manny was one of those people who received a fate that was undeserved. He didn't know what he had done wrong because he didn't do anything wrong- the evil bureaucracy screwed him over.
But... until Hector came along, one would assume people did get their Double-N Tickets, if perhaps with bureacratic, glacial slowness. ;)
Late in the game in year 4, it's revealed that once Hector came along, he hoarded all the tickets he had in the vain hope that would help him weasel his way in to the Ninth Underworld. The tickets he sold were fakes. So, one would assume that if Manny had had a real ticket that was stolen from him, it would have been in that briefcase along with the others... but, no ticket jumped out at him as it would have.
So I think we can conclude he indeed didn't earn a Double-N ticket while in this life.
-_- Why didn't I think of that? Grr.
~Sal
I don't know why but I like to believe it had something to do about ripping off clients on a really big corporate scheme, I think he was what on the FBI they call a "white collar criminal". So I believe that is why he is helping Salva on his cause (subconsciously)
I am stupid. What's a "white collar criminal"? :confused:
A person who creats a scheme to get people's money, goods, etc.(called like that due to ther corporate outfit).
PS: you are not stupid, it is not a common term.:)
Ah, now I see. Maybe Manny was like that, I could see him doing it.
Manny served the Zombie Pirate LeChuck in CMI, remember?
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the spanish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.
Originally posted by El Virus
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the sapnish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.
Really? I never noticed that in the English version.
What we have to keep in mind though, is that the English version is the original one. ;)
But anyway, I wouldn't put it past Manny. He was able to destroy Hector without a thought, and didn't he kind of trick Chepito into being captured by the octopus?
You're right, the english is the original one.
The only problem is that when you talk to Domino, Manny asks him about his past, and so does Domino, but Manny says he doesenґt know what he did to get stuck on El Marrow.
Yes, that's a problem. If he had done something really horrible, surely he would know it.
Maybe he knew all along that he hadn't been very good in his life, but didn't know what had been his worst deed, the one that doomed him to be a Reaper.
I think Charles Frederick aka MeddlingMonk used something like that in his story "The Sprouting of Don Copal". Just like Manny, Domino wasn't told what he had done. He knew he hadn't been a saint in his life, but didn't know what he had done. read the story if you have time, it's very good.
I'll surely read it if you say so;)
The fact that they don't say what Manny had done in his life is very good as it leaves it to our imagination like a lot of other things of the game.
I like to think he's much like myself and basically can't be arsed being good to people, like meche was, and therefore has to pay off that debt by being a reaper.
but maybe i'm being too much of a geek in thinking i am manny. to think about it, it is quite worrying, anyway, yes.
basically gonna play through it again tonight. not forgetting cpu killer.
Originally posted by VampireNaomi
I think Charles Frederick aka MeddlingMonk used something like that in his story "The Sprouting of Don Copal". Just like Manny, Domino wasn't told what he had done. He knew he hadn't been a saint in his life, but didn't know what he had done. read the story if you have time, it's very good.
Sorry to disturb you again, but where can I find the story:confused:
Here you go, El Virus: the novelizarion & other stories by the same author (
http://home.alltel.net/cf14312/)
Thanks now I can read them:)
Sorry to revive an old thread. I thought it would be better than starting a new one, considering that this one is already filled with interesting theories.
Has anyone wondered why Manny was a Reaper, but someone like Nick wasn't? I'm sure we all agree that Nick is a rotten egg compared to Manny. Why didn't he have to work off a debt?
a) Manny's life was worse than Nick's
b) Nick only became truly corrupted after death
c) Nick has already worked off his debt (unlikely, if you ask me; he just doesn't have that air around him and you'd think he might have learned something if he had)
d) something else, what?
Well, I've been thinking about this for a while (not that long actually, just today), and I've got a small theory about Manny's reason for being a reaper (of course, it is just for entertainment purposes, I do not believe it to be true; and I like the fact that the gamer never finds the real thing out).
Now, due to the appearance of the Land of the Living (if I remember correctly), the game seems to take place on the 50s or late 40s (er, avoid the fact about computers and stuff), specially since Casablanca was filmed around that time (and we all know the importance of this film to GF). Now, what happened during the decade of 1940? the Second World War. Perhaps Manuel Calavera was a soldier himself, and he got killed during the conflict. Since being a killing under soldier duty is not considered a 'sin' or 'bad action' entirely, Manny is not aware of the reason of his punishment in the afterlife.
But, I truly believe that the reason for Manny to be in the Land of the Dead was deeper. Not based on his actions, but on his attitude towards life (such as in Dead like me, you know...).
Has anyone wondered why Manny was a Reaper, but someone like Nick wasn't
What do you mean Nick Virago was not a reaper? I always thought he was one.
What do you mean Nick Virago was not a reaper? I always thought he was one.
Then we've got a disagreement in our hands. I have no actual proof, but something in Nick doesn't scream a Reaper to me. I always thought he was someone who had to walk. On the other hand, if he had been a Reaper, that opens a whole new world of possibilities.
As for your other theory, it makes sense.
But, I truly believe that the reason for Manny to be in the Land of the Dead was deeper. Not based on his actions, but on his attitude towards life (such as in Dead like me, you know...).
This especially is probably the best speculation that has come up yet.
I also believe he killed someone, I was playing the game again, and I noticed that (on the spanish translation, I don't if on others it does), while Manny is speaking to Meche, he asked her if he had never killed someone, on a tone that makes you believe he did.
yeah the same tone is in the english version, but i think its more of a use of comedic indifference than actually insinuating that he killed someone, more likely that he's just so used to scumbag clients that someone who hasnt done any killing is a new thing.
Then we've got a disagreement in our hands. I have no actual proof, but something in Nick doesn't scream a Reaper to me. I always thought he was someone who had to walk. On the other hand, if he had been a Reaper, that opens a whole new world of possibilities.
Wait, I'm a real idiot. Forgive my momentary GF-memory loss, but I confused Nick Virago with Domino Hurley :P. It's just that since both of them are YOUR idols ;) , I could not remember who was whom; 'Was it Dom who had a relation with Olivia; and Nick the reaper who harrassed Manny?', that was what must have gone [subconciously] through my mind.
Now that I come to think of your question, it is a strange thing. Give me some time to think about it, though.
yeah the same tone is in the english version, but i think its more of a use of comedic indifference than actually insinuating that he killed someone, more likely that he's just so used to scumbag clients that someone who hasnt done any killing is a new thing.
I never understood the first conversation with Meche/Merche. It got too strange (in the Spanish dub, at least).
Wait, I'm a real idiot. Forgive my momentary GF-memory loss, but I confused Nick Virago with Domino Hurley :P. It's just that since both of them are YOUR idols ;) , I could not remember who was whom; 'Was it Dom who had a relation with Olivia; and Nick the reaper who harrassed Manny?', that was what must have gone [subconciously] through my mind.
Now that I come to think of it, it is a strange thing. Give me some time to think about it, though.
Heh, never mind. I doubt anyone can outdo me in being an idiot. Remember how the box has a picture of Domino taking Meche down the stairs? For all these years I somehow looked wrong at it and saw that the woman had red hair and wondered who the hell had made the mistake of putting Eva in Meche's clothes. Only yesterday I realised that what I thought to be hair was only Domino's sleeve. :D
I never understood the first conversation with Meche/Merche. It got too strange (in the Spanish dub, at least).
What happens in the Spanish dub? Any examples? Is she called Merche in it?
Remember how the box has a picture of Domino taking Meche down the stairs? For all these years I somehow looked wrong at it and saw that the woman had red hair and wondered who the hell had made the mistake of putting Eva in Meche's clothes. Only yesterday I realised that what I thought to be hair was only Domino's sleeve.
Isn't Eva's 'red thing at the top' a bandana? I never thought of it like that (even though I love red-hair), mainly because they are skeletons (some characters seem to have hair, however).
The box...I lost it...don't remind me of it...
What happens in the Spanish dub? Any examples? Is she called Merche in it?
Well, I think Manny calls her 'Merche' in the dub, but only a couple of times.
I'm quite sure that it is the same with the [original] English version. Basically, my problem was with Manuel asking for any excuse just to NOT give her a Number 9 ticket.
"You haven't killed anyone?"
"No, but I could kill somebody right now, if it helps"
"No, that wouldn't help"
Or something like that...
Oh, and happy birthday!, excuse my 1-day delay (and actually, I'm sure that by the time you read this, two days would have gone by).
Regarding Manny's questions to Meche: He isn't looking for an excuse, he's looking for a logical explanation. At that point in the conversation, he's already checked the DOD computer, and seen that Meche doesn't qualify for any premium travel package. He couldn't sell her a ticket on the Number 9 even if he wanted to. But since she should qualify, Manny wonders whether he's missed something, so he begins to question her about things she might have done in her life.
I think this is the point at which the story becomes "bigger", in that it starts to become obvious that there's something awry which extends beyond Domino and the boss.
Regarding Manny's questions to Meche: He isn't looking for an excuse, he's looking for a logical explanation.
Yes, but that only became clear to me later on, the first time, as I said, was a tad strange (I have the Spanish version, and it varies a bit due to the translation).
ah, i see - i forgot you were hearing the translation!
in my opinion(I shouldn't even participate in this topic since I haven't played the game to the end yet :)) I think that Manny didn't do anything wrong in his life but those 'recruiters' of the death wanted somehow revenge his goodness and so they made him a reaper.
don't take me too seriously but I just wanted to open the case from this end of the tale :P
and by the way, you fellas surely seem to know much about GF, nice one mates!
All right, I hesitated a bit to explain my point of view, but here.
For some reason I've never thought that Reapers were the lowest rank or something. It seems an important job - to fetch newlydead souls to the Land of the Dead. I figure some souls are commonly offered a Reaper job if there's a vacant postion in the DOD and a soul has to work off his time. Then you don't have to search for a job yourself, so becoming a Reaper may be convinient for those willing to understand the Land of the Dead first and after some time to decide either to go find another place or continue building a career in the DOD.
I can't be sure, though, 'cause I played a LONG time ago (that's not the point, of course, I'm still in love with the story and everything GF :) ) with a HIDEOUS dubled dialogues, hence I didn't understand most of the plot. That's also a reason for me to not replay till I find a good copy, which seems unlikely for me ;_; . So prove me wrong, if anything:).
As for why Manny had to work off his time - I never ever thought he was Saint. People like Manny ('very competetive', indeed) are never average, and they use all opportunities wherever they feel like it.
There's a popular (and really good) sci-fi book by Harry Harrison - 'Deathworld' - which I associate with Manny's story a great deal. (Hah, it has just occured to me that even the title has some semblance :) ; by the way, both stories curiously enough start with a tube transfer system's message). The main character Jason DinAlt, for me, is the same type as Manny - and he's a 'professional cheat', as he himself calls his 'profession'. The guy who'll find a way in any situation. So, if pressed, I'd say Manny could do the same - be 'competetive' :) .
I wonder, how he died (my guess is some sort of an accident, like a car crush or something).
__________________________________________________ _______
Sorry for being lengthy and for my dreadful English.
As for why Manny had to work off his time - I never ever thought he was Saint. People like Manny ('very competetive', indeed) are never average, and they use all opportunities wherever they feel like it.
Very true.
I think that since this story has a lot to do with the Noir fiction, it might have the character guilty of a situation he did not plan; but every prospect of him being an outlaw is eclipsed by him not remembering what he did.
What do you think about Flores? Do you think he actually deserved a ticket to the Number Nine, or was he really the loser the game made him seem like?
Why do you think that he doesn't remember what he did? I reckon every soul remembers their past, why wouldn't they?
I always thought there wasn't some Le Grand Sin in Manny's life - there were quite a few:). Though it's always a question what's the actual scale of virtues they use there in the DOD. My opinion is that the most ordinary lifes qualify for a walking stick, hence outstanding (in various meanings of the word) people are destined for something else: NN ticket or a time to work off, for example.
Although this interests nobody:), I'll say I'd perhaps go on foot or work for about a year. I suppose.
What about Flores? By my aforementioned theory, he'd gotten just what he qualified for: an ordinary afterdeath journey due to an ordinary life. Like, was born, lived, loved, cheated the gasometer, worked, died.
Maybe my 'scale of virtues' 's strict, I don't know. Land of the Dead doesn't look horrible enough to consider it a Hell for the terrible sinners only. It looks more like a second chance, even - to show you do deserve the Land of Eternal Rest, after all.
Regarding Manny, I imagine he'd led a less than perfect life - we can see throughout the four years that he's not above things like blackmail, or occasionally taking advantage of people, or taking an interest in more than one woman, or the curse of almost every adventure game character, kleptomania.
I just always assumed he didn't much fancy his travel package and decided to work, so he could afford a better one.
I guess you can think of the Land of the Dead as a kind of purgatory. People who have led good lives can go straight through in four minutes, but the others have to go through the "four year journey of the soul", and we can see that it tests people and changes them. And not just Manny and Meche, but I doubt Celso's ever had to defend himself against killer animals before. And, yes, I suspect being packed in a coffin for four years with nothing to read but a complimentary mug with a pithy phrase on it will change you in some ways too.
I picture Celso as an unachieving, unassertive, modest sort of person. You wouldn't notice him in a crowd, and you'd easily forget him. He maybe has that sort of "invisible" quality, like Mr Cust from ABC Murders. What kind of afterlife would you think fate should have in store for him? It's an interesting question, but I don't think he would have had a Double N ticket.
BTW, has anyone noticed that there's a picture of his wife on the wall of the LSA headquarters in year four?
counting_pine,
Wow, about Celso - that was inspired. I'm starting to consider falling in love with that guy:).
But why do you think he didn't get his true travel package? The DOD can't be that crooked, I think, so as to sell wrong destinies to everyone.
I guess you can think of the Land of the Dead as a kind of purgatory.
Just like I said, a second chance; for the villains to redeem themselves and for those average to show what they are worth of.
It only makes sense, for those are People who define the Land. The Land of the Dead is a dangerous and corrupted place thanks to all baddies settled there; one could assume that one of the benefits of the Ninth Underworld is a really pure society.
I suspect being packed in a coffin for four years
Uhuh *glumly*, four. Feels more like three, actually.
<about Manny> or taking an interest in more than one woman
0.0 When was that???!!?
And, people, just tell me, why do you think Manny did qualify for something other than working in the LotD? Don't you have a taste for really bad men))? From the introduction to the game I understood he would have prefered to be able to get out of LotD at any cost to working - before he became involved and got an aim, that is:).
has anyone noticed that there's a picture of his wife on the wall of the LSA headquarters in year four?
Really? Which one is that?
Wow, this conversation has really advanced while I wasn't looking. I don't know which points to address, but I'll give a shot to some, even if someone may have already cleared them.
1. Manny is stuck at the DOD and did something bad
At least this is what the game led me to believe. In a conversation with Domino Manny asks what he did wrong to get stuck at being a Reaper. Domino throws the question back and Manny replies that he doesn't know what he did that was horrible enough to condemn him as a Reaper.
Also, in an earlier conversation with Eva it's made clear that the two of them can't just leave the city and remain in one piece. I think these two points make it fairly obvious that working for the DOD is not voluntary -- that's also mentioned in the intro when Manny tells Celso why he can't leave.
2. Manny was interested in multiple women
Anyone remember Carla? The two obviously had something going on while Manny should have concentrated on looking for Meche. ;)
3. Celso didn't get what he deserved
Salvador told Manny that all of his clients qualified for better packages than they got.
Oh, and I don't think that most of the people in the Land of the Dead are working off their time. I see it the way that only those at the DOD have a debt to pay. Everyone else (everybody in Rubacava, for example) was made to walk, drive or whatever, and has just decided to stay in one place and seek happiness there instead of continuing their journey. Or they may be saving enough money to get a better travelling option.
I probably forgot something important, so feel free to correct me.
But why do you think he didn't get his true travel package? The DOD can't be that crooked, I think, so as to sell wrong destinies to everyone.I wouldn't rule out that possibility. But who knows, maybe Celso genuinely did earn that walking stick, maybe that's the reward you get for a lifetime of being generally mediochre. I guess it depends on whether you see it as Manny being cheated out of the best clients, or all the clients being cheated out of the best travel packages.
0.0 When was that???!!?
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but there were a couple of things in year two. Like his relationship with Carla (and her metal detector). And the way Lupe says, "you might wanna mingle with this one, she sounds like your type".
Discuss. :)
Really? Which one is that?
Keep an eye out during the cut scene where they return to El Marrow in year 4. When Sal enters, you can see a couple of pictures on the wall behind him. One of them is the same picture Celso gave Manny at the end of year 1.
EDIT: It seems I have been pipped at the post, so to speak. Just ignore half my post, VampireNaomi has probably floccinaucinihilipilificated it.
I guess it depends on whether you see it as Manny being cheated out of the best clients, or all the clients being cheated out of the best travel packages.
I think I see it as a bith of both. Domino is getting all the good clients while Manny sinks lower and lower, and as a result all the good clients go through Dommy boy who takes their just rewards.
However, I doubt Celso qualified for a very good package. If he had deserved a Double N ticket he would have ended up at the Edge of the World with the rest of the saints. He probably just was a walking stick kind of guy.
EDIT:
EDIT: It seems I have been pipped at the post, so to speak. Just ignore half my post, VampireNaomi has probably floccinaucinihilipilificated it.
Always fun to have more than one account on the same thing. Also, is the one in bold a real word?