Originally posted by BattleDog
This is an Outer Rim Law (I made up). As you may have gathered in the Cantina Flax has been made dictator (King) for six months. Under certain circumstances a challenge to his right to rule might be brought. The challenger could ask for Trial by Personnal Combat or Tournument.
Obviously no-one is going to challenge a sword master like Taklin Flax. In the second case two armies draw up and fight a war using archaic weapons. In this instance Flax would Deploy his legions and call on his allies.
That sounds eerily like a Blade tradition which will probably come up later in the Cantina RPG (although PtH, while it will DEFINITELY have Blades in it, may not for a while) in which a Blade can challenge another's authority and jurisdiction through a tournament/duel.
Oh, I guess I should clarify why I was asking about Drago...
I'm going to be introducing K'Warra to PtH in this chapter (in a rather unusual fashion, and believe it or not, it is an intrinsic part of the plot, not just something I randomly threw in). Since Drago and K'Warra are both immortals, they have wildly clashing personalities, and they have a bad history (Mrear/Crisis), the inclusion of both of them in the same chapter, in the modern day, would be interesting...
Admiral.....can I borrow you for my history test tomorrow? :D
Trial by tournament: That reminds me of the Aesir's big celebration (The Tournament) of martial skills.
JM: Test on what point in time?
Not so much a period in time than a bunch of civilizations plopped together in a test: Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Aztecs. Plus we begin covering Vikings in about January....
Actually Admiral the Tournument of Martial Skills was what gave me the idea. To be honest I'm feeding off you a bit for inspiration.
You've brobably detected the Saxon/Viking Influence the culture I've created. There's also some Roman in there.
The Agamarian Culture, along with the local sector of the Outer Rim is based on England C900 A.D.
Flax would be more properly termed an Earl, he has power and land but he does not own all the Land he has aurthoriety over.
In oder to become King Flax would have to be elected by the Council of Lords. This has not happened in 15,000 years.
Also, all Agamarians have an obligation of military service based on the amount of Land they hold. The more wealthy they are the higher up the military food chain.
The Bowmen are generally tennants or manual labourers.
The Shieldwall are independant farmers.
The Militia are drawn from those in the cities with enough money to divert time to military training and to buy effective weapons and armour.
The House Gaurd are part of a Lord's household and are a standing army, trained from youth. As a point of interest the name "House Gaurd" was inspired by Huscarle variously translated as House Carl and Gaurd.
JM: The vikings. If your teacher says anything about them wearing horned helms hit him/her.
BD: :) If I can inspire you in another area don't have Hal wear a sword across his back. It is a pet pev of mine that people think swords are normaly worn across the back. This is not the case except for the Great Swords, Claymores, True-Two handers etc. In other words swords that cannot possible be worn at the side do to their large size.
Any sword that could be worn at the hip is worn at the hip. Reason: You cannot draw a blade over your shoulder (I say this from experience).
If you or anyone here is really interested in reading more about swords I direct you to this thread: Swordsmanship School (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99242)
I have a couple post talking about length and classes of swords.
BD: I did notice the Saxon influence. Also noticed the Admiral influence. :)
My cultures tend to be a mishmash of a whole bunch of different cultural types rather than based on one or two. This might not be obvious since I haven't really done much more than hint at cultural details so far, but you will see alot more of that when I get to put the group in my dimension next thread.
[I did throw some stuff in Crisis, but it wasn't terribly detailed either, not to mention outdated since I placed it in my world's past.]
Admiral: I took the liberty of fixing your link, hope you don't mind. :)
Admiral, he wears his Longsword on his back because his short sword is on his hip. Thats the only reason. The reason he wears two swords at the moment is because he is currently tending towards sword and shield, so the Longsword is effectivly "stored".
BD: You use a long sword with a shield. ;)
Swords that you can't use a shield with require two hands. Long sword is a one handed.
Unless you believe diablo II physics are real, and a barbarian can wield two two-handed swords :P
Maybe they have big hands. ;)
Then I have it named wrong. Hal's blade is around 40 inches long with a 10 inch hilt (ish).
Taklin's was 36 inches long because he is considerably shorter than his son. 5 foot 10 vs 6 foot 2.
BD: For reference this is a long sword.
3. Long Sword: This refers to swords that have a handle that will fit both hands, and has a long blade. The name was recorded in 1450, but most likely was used before then. A long sword length is usually 40-48 inches. Weight around 2 Ѕ to 3 Ѕ. It is believed these swords were used as early as 1150.
I think you desire a Great Sword
5. Great Sword: These are even larger war swords, the term started also in the 1300s, evidence suggest that these swords were in use as early as 1180. These are not true two handed swords (those will be covered later). They weigh enough to require the use of both hands. Where a long sword could be used with a shield, and on a horse. These swords cannot be used with a shield and are a pure infantry weapon. Length is 44 to 53 inches. They weigh 3 to 4 pounds. Usually these swords have a fuller running down half the blade length and a rounded point. Great swords are most famous for the early Scottish claymore (The one William Wallace used in Braveheart).
Aye laddy, it be 'ne o' my mo favor-it-a-ble films :swrd2:
Originally posted by Admiral
JM: The vikings. If your teacher says anything about them wearing horned helms hit him/her.
Congrats, I am now suspended from school and grounded thanks to you......
Well that is what you get when you try to prevant people from teaching the wrong information. :D
suspended? thats usualy cause for expelsion :P
So I am right, Longsword. The Agamarians use a two handed weapon with a 40-44 inch blade. Oh, I made a mistake, Flax' weapon was 38 inches. I know technically that falls outside the range but as I said he's quite short.
No BD. A long sword's overall length (blade and hilt) is 40-48 inches, and only requires one hand.
From your description the overall length of Hal's sword is around 50 inches putting it out of the range of a long sword and into the range of a Great Sword. Also by saying that you can't use a shield with it implies that it requires both hands to use and as such falls out of the Long Sword category.
Originally posted by Scar Da Kookee
suspended? thats usualy cause for expelsion :P
Well, I hit him with a 300 page book a bunch of papers, so they took pity on me.
Okay, right I have it. Hal uses a Great Sword. All my other Agamarians use Longswords. I have my visualizations's wrong.
The average sword used by mounted housgaurd and Flax is 44 inches long with a 36 inch blade. The Weapon can be used one or two handed. Hence Forth this will be known as a Gaurd's Sword.
The average weapon is around 34 inches long with a 28 inch blade. This will be known as a Common Sword. In future anyone confused must refer to this thread.
Hal's Sword is an examply of a weapon used by the Light Infantry and will be known as a Barbarian Sword.
Admiral: I'm currently working under the assumption that Drago would be apreciably older than Odin's childran and must have encountered the Asier before. Simply through virtue of being so old.
If you have a serious problem with any of this please say.
BD: Being older then Odin's children is not a problem, except maybe for Vidar (the eldest son). How old is Drago? (that way I can say whether or not he is older then Vidar and some of the others).
And it depends on how he encoutered the Aesir.
Not to answer for BD, but definitive answer for that is difficult since no one really knows WHEN the Mrear world existed (where IIRC Drago was born), when it stopped existing, and when magic was "bound" in the galaxy/went away on its own/something else happened. (This as well has never really been clear.)
I know but even if it is a general idea of age I could give a better answer.
Well, If Mrear developed at the same rate as the human homeworld and they were roughly the same age Drago would be around 50,000 years old, maybe as much as 70,000, maybe more.
This is all based on the fact that SW technology is so advanced and we know they were firmly intergalatic around 30,000 BBY. So I figure add 20,000 for them to go from the dark ages to there. Then we have to consider that Mrear is probably older than the HHW. So I'd say between 50-80,000, with those being the far outsiders.
As to the other question I would think an Imortal would be fairly impressive even to the Asier and second simply through virtue of being so old he must have met them several times. In general I would expect him to have gotton on well with them.
He might even concievably have spent several years/decades with them. That would help to explain how he found Midgard.
Hm, if so that would probably have been pre-Loki from what Admiral has told me...
Going by theforce.net (
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/Sect1-1.shtml), which is generally reliable and backs up its sources, the Star Wars galaxy formed c. 5,000,000,000 BBY.
Considering C8-9-10, with Kvana's appearance on Coruscant, Mrear probably existed between c. 200,000 and 100,000 BBY so that the sun-blocking citadel could have been constructed by someone he knew. (Running out of time here, so check the site to see what I mean.) Which makes Drago older by an order of magnitude. This is just conjecture, however.
Pardon my cluelessness, but what does "HHW" stand for?
I really do need to sit down and do a timeline for the Aesir would make this much easier anyways:
Well I don't know how impressed they would be with a single immortal human. The drakes are immortal and the Aesir have yet to discover their natural life-span (no Aesir has yet to die of old age).
So if Drago was to spend any appreciable amount of time with the Aesir it would have to be before the explusion of Loki, and after the first war. A lot of time passed between those two events mind you but Vidar, Tyr, Heimdall, Svafa and the rest of Odin's children would've been born and old with the exception for Vali who was Born after the expulsion of Loki.
Now if Drago did encounter the Aesir he would have meet Odin and some others (Odin generally travels with his children and Loki given the time period) on one of Odin's jouryneys. (He does that a lot so them meeting serveral times could happen). As far as spending time with the Aesir, Drago could have joined Odin on one of his journey's. Odin journey's tend to last a long time (7+ Years). Drago wouldn't of been taken to any of the Aesirian worlds though nor told of their location.
------------------------------------------------------
About Age and how the Aesir view it.
The Aesir do not view age as important so generally they don't keep track of how old they are once they are past 100. 100 marks a milestone in a life of an Aesir and once they are past that their age no longer matters and the Aesir don't ask each other how old they are.
Past the century mark, an Aesir when asked for his/her age generally picks a number. Sometimes randomly other times just a number they like. For instance Odin likes 4,000 and whenever someone asks him how old he is, Odin answers with either "4,000" or "over 4,000". Odin is much older then that (to be honest I haven't sat down and done the math, but at the very least around Drago's age most likely older). Heimdall likes to say 300. This by the way is to other Aesir/people who know they are Aesir.
For non-Aesir and those who have no idea that they are Aesir they will pick a human age that they look like. For example if Svafa is infiltrating the Empire she may say that she is 20. Odin maybe 50 or so.
You should get the idea to their practices. Also Drago would be older then Vidar but by how much I'm not sure (really need to figure out a time line). He would not be older then Idun.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any questions?
Yes
if a tree falls in a forest and theres no one around to hear it, does it make a sound? :)
Ok, thats fine, the point has to do less with actual age and more to do with life experiance as a result of age. Where as the Asier are inclined to look down on humans somewhat simply because they have a far greater level of knowledge and experiance they can't do this with Drago.
So the Asier are going to have deal with Drago from a position of relative equallity. The point is further driven home by a measure of shared knowledge, magic, dragons, etc; thats not a point I'm going to stress though.
As a note Drago stopped counting at 1,000.
BD: You have a slight misconception. They Aesir do not look down upon humans because they lack experience etc. They look down on some of them, because the way they act. As one of them said earlier they judge a Jedi in comparison to other Jedi. Humans compared to other humans and so on.
I must ask how much knowledge would you like Drago to have of the Drakes (Odin would have traveled with one of them)? I also need to point out that he doesn't have knowledge of the Futhark.
Admiral, What I mean is Drago has practical experiance of fighting Dragons and dealing with magic. As to Drakes I would think a general overview, weaknesses, temperment, level of intelligence etc.
As to your other point whatever your intentions your characters gonvey a different attitude.
Drakes are immortal, extermly smart, all but Nidhogg and his gang of 4 others are the only ones that went bad so to say.
Age wise Drakes were around since the begining.
----------------------------------------------
BD: Exactly and what does that imply about they way the Aesir feel about the group?
Originally posted by Admiral
BD: You have a slight misconception. They Aesir do not look down upon humans because they lack experience etc. They look down on some of them, because the way they act. As one of them said earlier they judge a Jedi in comparison to other Jedi. Humans compared to other humans and so on.
I must ask how much knowledge would you like Drago to have of the Drakes (Odin would have traveled with one of them)? I also need to point out that he doesn't have knowledge of the Futhark.
well, i can recall clearly you saying once that aesir consider humans as 'children' in age wise and the amount of intelligence one could gain in that time (well obviously in their life spans) but considering that
that would technically be comparing humans to themselves, dont you think
to clear somethings up.
When you use totals as in the entire human race the Aesir must compare humanity to themselves. Like the entire Jedi Order the Aesir compare it to themselves.
Now idividuals they compare to other members. Jedi to other Jedi, Human to other Human.
Now for the PTH group, yes the Aesir see a good portion as childish like the Irvines and since the Irvines should be more mature the Aesir treat them like they do. Marin they treat better because she seems mature, and they have no other to base a comparison on.
I will say this. Age does not play into how they treat people. It is how they act and behave and a comparison relative to that individuals culture and to the Aesir themselves.
Originally posted by Scar Da Kookee
Yes
if a tree falls in a forest and theres no one around to hear it, does it make a sound? :)
Depends on how big the tree is.
If a hobo dies in the sewers, does anyone find out?
Maybe, but what does that have to do with PtH? ;)
An interesting question is how much the Aesir know about/have used magic in the past.
I should also point out that Mrearan magic and Aetherian magic [the Aether is the common name of what I've always referred to as "the magic world" of Earth] are two different although similar things.
I can't really say similar in what ways unless Deac cares to explain exactly how Mrearan magic works, which isn't really relevant at this time.
I need to explain how Aetherian magic works myself, but I can put that off until PtH VI. :p
Originally posted by Redwing
Maybe, but what does that have to do with PtH? ;)
An interesting question is how much the Aesir know about/have used magic in the past.
I should also point out that Mrearan magic and Aetherian magic [the Aether is the common name of what I've always referred to as "the magic world" of Earth] are two different although similar things.
I can't really say similar in what ways unless Deac cares to explain exactly how Mrearan magic works, which isn't really relevant at this time.
I need to explain how Aetherian magic works myself, but I can put that off until PtH VI. :p
I dunno,I just saw the question aobut the tree and needed to post my own. Plus hobos are cool :cool:
Okay, just for fun: Hal beef with the Asier.
As a direct result of their actions Hal has lost his family, his people, his entire way of life.From his point of view blowing up 80% of the Galaxy seems like a very childish overreaction on the part of Odin's children for the following reasons.
1. Destruction of that many stars will make much of the Galaxy A. untravelable and B. highly unstable. In a matter of years the Galaxy will swollow its self. Actually I'd say the Asier may actually have brought an apocalypse foward a few years.
2. People should be allowed to choose how to meet their end. Most relevant, the Lahara Sector found have fought to the last man, woman and child against Sith, Demons, you name it.
3. The very casual offhand way the Galaxy was destroyed. I don't recall any remorse at all thew the destruction of all those people. Bear in mind that Hal and all the other Jedi felt every death and if the Asier use the Force they should have too.
Other stuff he doesnet like:
The Asier DO treat the group like children, even after months of fighting by their side they still refuse to trust Hal an inch and treat him as though he is stupid, and they were doing this before the episode in the last thread.
Before you point out that episode with the Sith in the temple I'll point out that they were in a place strong in the dark side and given their general mental state it made all the Jedi a bit odd.
Another of Hal's problems has to do with hypocracy. Particually Svafa's very violent and foolish response to being accused in the last thread, obviously a neccessary plot device but in Hal's view it reflects particually badly on her character.
Finally, Hal is bound by several codes of honour which prevent him from lying, betrayal etc so the Asier's continuing mistrust is a personnal insult, which they continually remind him of.
I should point out, counter to all I have just said that Hal has a proffessional respect for Heimdall and an instilled respect handed down from his father for all Asier but this is being erroded by his current experiance.
He has a genuine personnal conflict with Svafa.
Originally posted by Admiral
Now for the PTH group, yes the Aesir see a good portion as childish like the Irvines and since the Irvines should be more mature the Aesir treat them like they do. Marin they treat better because she seems mature, and they have no other to base a comparison on.
oh i'm hurt :rolleyes:
Interesting BD.
You will not see the Aesir show remorse for their actions mainly since they believe they did the right thing and yes they did feel the deaths. Also any remorse that they do show would not be in front of the group.
Now about Svafa in the previous thread. Keep in mind that Heimdall is her brother and attacked and injured her a couple of times before Marin/Raschel accusation. She was also emotionally beat up from the strong belief that she would have to kill her brother. The Accusation pushed her over the edge as such her violent reaction.
Svafa personally doesn't like Hal. reasons:
1. He in her opinion is a poor Jedi. In this thread, the previous one etc. Hal has shown a lack of control over his emotions, being quick to anger and outbursts.
2. In the previous thread Hal (in Svafa's opinion) threw a tantrum and ran away. That completly destroyed any and all trust she had in him. It also took away a lot of her respect for him and Jedi in general (Misea is far from helping).
3. The most current thing. Hal being angry over Matt's training yet he did nothing during the eight months. If he really cared then he should have checked in or at least asked Sir Vin on how it was going.
--------------------------------------------------
Later on I'll explain some of the reason why they treat others as Children. Although I don't see them really treating Orthos, Gortick, Ellela, Marin, and Guy and for the most part Aidan like children. Tanara and Ritchet are new members so they don't really know.
Mainly it is Misea, the Irvines and Hal.
Originally posted by BattleDog
1. Destruction of that many stars will make much of the Galaxy A. untravelable and B. highly unstable. In a matter of years the Galaxy will swollow its self. Actually I'd say the Asier may actually have brought an apocalypse foward a few years.
Um, what science - Star Wars or real world - is this based on? This doesn't seem to make logical sense.
Even if this were so, the galaxy is going to end within twenty years according to prophecy anyway. If the galaxy was going to swallow itself it would happen over thousands or millions or even billions of years making that irrelevant anyway.
I really have nothing to add to the rest of your post since Admiral and I have already fiercely argued this out on AIM :) (while it was happening, in fact)
Scar: You shouldn't be, you are not your characters and your characters are not you ;)
note the sarcasm in my post redy :D
yeah, and in this thread, i'm trying to fix up the personality querks I have with the Irvines ^_^;
although i'm going to almost keep WH Irvine the same, but letting RH irvine to grow a bit (note any noticeable attitude changes already with the two, and any mistakes thus far, were my fault ^_^)
RH Irvine's still got a bit to go, note his reactions and questions ^_^ (also note his somewhat abserd question was to get an idea on the numbers of the aesir or the number of sith.)
he's more annoyed at hal then anything (hell I am too) especally almost saying "You screwed up I'm taking over". no offence JM, but for story sake I had RH Irvine thought that matt wasnt mentally ready for hard combat training. But hell either way you look at it how would he know that they'll be pit up agenst a full day's worth of battle. again its nice to be prepared, but my logic is, especally with that first act with matt in the closet ^_^
it is also RH irvine's first apprentice ;)
Well since a black hole causes a different hyperspace shadow to a star (We've seen this with the Maw.) it follows that all those black holes will make large tracts of space unpassable.
As to the other thing its a Star Wars style exageration, but that said all those black holes are going to start dragging towards each other and joining up and on it will go.
As to what Admiral said I take your points, however counterpoint to what you said about Svafa I'd like to elaborate on Hals mntal state:
1. His entire family dead, either directly or indirectly because of the Asier.
2. These guys blew up the galaxy! :)
3. The destruction of Agamar makes Hal feel personnally guilty because as soon as his father died those people became his responsibility. Consider if this had happened a couple of threads later when Flax had gained more power after the armastice he would have been responsible for the death of everyone in a sector.
4. Hal has his father's temper. Flax shows it less because of his age.
5. Consider the Hal here with the much more reserved and reasonable Hal in the other thread.
Also, I think he's been very well behaved this thread.
I got around to reading "Sword School", talking about swords, you made one or two boobs:
1. The Gladius is worn on the Right, even early Spatha were worn on the right. The didn't start wearing swords on the left until C 250 A.D. at least.
2. You missed some interesting types:
Mycenaean Rapier.
Naue II.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist :D
I wouldn't expect you to know those, since its Pre-Roman Classical knowledge.
I just had to say also 13th Warrior, I was screaming, "Its pattern welded you **%^%&&$%%$%%& :D
btw bd: my last post, sir-vin offering a drink to hal ;)
thats just him trying to 'mend' the differences between the two ^^
just to infrom about waht i'm on about :)
Originally posted by BattleDog
Well since a black hole causes a different hyperspace shadow to a star (We've seen this with the Maw.) it follows that all those black holes will make large tracts of space unpassable.
No, the Maw has a ton of black holes close together. Gravity is what causes hyperspace shadows. Any black holes that may have formed are no closer together than the stars were.
Also keep in mind that 80% of intelligent life is not the same thing as 80% of stars. The reason for the stars being out now is the mysterious darkness that instantly shut out all light eight months ago. Also, stars have to be a certain size (larger than our sun, a medium star) to form a black hole after going supernova.
Large tracts of space are not going to be unpassable anyway because black holes have yet to form where they will form. I base this on the fact that just scant research tells me that although many stars have been observed going nova, a black hole has never been observed forming.
As to the other thing its a Star Wars style exageration, but that said all those black holes are going to start dragging towards each other and joining up and on it will go.
I don't remember Star Wars science being exaggerated in that way. That seems like a BD-style exaggeration. ;)
Black holes *cannot* be formed in twenty years, certainly.
And again, see what I said before about the millions to billions of years thing for the gravity of the black holes to drag each other towards each other over such vast distances...even if there were enough stars destroyed for this to happen, which looks extremely unlikely.
Separately:
A comment on Hal's/Flax' quite un-Jedi-like temper/attitudes; my theory on this is their dual Jedi/Agamarian heritage - are those conflicting? This has been my observation, and I'm curious to know if you think it's an accurate one :)
About Swords BD: When wearing them I was referring to Medieval ages, and Renaissance. 13th warrior made me cringe a lot with what they did but still a decent movie.
About the explosion of the Stars.
Only extermly massive stars would create blackholes. Other large stars would create Neutron Stars that they spin rapidly can generate pulsars.
The galaxy is not littered with tons of black holes many of the stars that exploded didn't have the mass to generate black holes or Neutron stars. Neutron stars would be the next most frequent event with black holes being the least likely.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning the Aesir and trust. As Red knows the Aesir do not trust, they are prone to mistrust. This roots itself in Loki and the death of Balder. After that point the Aesir basically only trust each other fully. After the destruction of the galaxy, the Aesir are despised (and understandably I will add). To reverse everything and save their lord the Aesir must work with people who in all likely hood hate them. This makes trusting those people much harder since they could just be bidding their time for Revenge. I think only Orthos has really seen any benefit from the holocaust (finding his brother, and cousin)
That is the starting point of their inherint mistrust in PTH.
Now for certain individuals it is increased:
Hal: His lack of control over his emotions is dangerous especially for Jedi. The Aesir know this and will not trust him until he can exert control his emotions. There is also another question that is Hal is having trouble following the Jedi code will he also have trouble and be unable to follow his other codes?
Misea: Has no control over her emotions and is sliding to the dark side. Definetly not going to trust.
Guy: Mysterious, not very sure where he stands and they don't know much about him so they hold him at arms lenght.
The Irvines: The Aesir didn't like them at first because of their family history. Since then the Aesir have continually been forced to repeat themselves. They complain, whine (take the armor for example) and have made some stupid comments. The Irvines are prone rash actions, don't think things all the way through. Sir Vin lost a lot of ground with what the Aesir see as a failure in his responsiblity to train Matt.
I will note at this point that Hal also lost ground. If Hal in their opinion was truely concrened about Matt, Hal would have inquired about his training during the past 8 months. Then instead of trying to immediatly take over it would have been better if Hal offered his help (much more Jedi like).
Matt: His little snopping adventure set him far back with the issue of trust.
---------------------------------------------------------
Out of the Group Marin is the most trusted. Aidan is coming along since they first meet him. Same with Orthos, Raschel, and Ellela. Gortick, not sure of just yet same with Tanara and Ritchet.
Now for some fun. I'll reveal a little bit about Svafa state of mind:
1. She blames herself for her fathers death (Odin). Svafa is convinced that if she did her job as a Valkyrie better then Odin would not have been killed. Combine this with Svafa's already beating herself up over the death of Balder and failing to find Loki's true nature.
2. As a Valkyrie, Svafa has spent many years infiltrating groups like the Empire. Acting as a spy one doesn't make actual friends and generally trusts no one. She can only really relax around other Aesir otherwise she is always on guard.
3. She doesn't think she is going to survive this to the end. Her death will have less of an impact if she keeps the rest of the group at arms length and is generally hostile to them.
At the same time by keeping them away from her she insultates herself from their deaths.
I can gon on and on as I delve deeper into her pysche but at least everyone should understand her a little better now. maybe Tomorrow I'll do Heimdall and Idun (this is rather fun). With luck you should be able to notice a difference between PTH Svafa and C13 Svafa as things progress.