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The Evil behind Pornography

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 Doomie
08-16-2004, 5:09 PM
#51
I think he was only using the straight porn as an example...

And he said he was addicted to 'pr0n' for three years, i wonder what got him off of it?

Oh, and by the way, DiesStarwarsGeek: Best. Zing. Ever.
 ET Warrior
08-16-2004, 5:18 PM
#52
Originally posted by Doomgiver
And he said he was addicted to 'pr0n' for three years, i wonder what got him off of it?

Probably went on the patch...or got that gum stuff.....
 shukrallah
08-16-2004, 5:48 PM
#53
Right, you can beat the addiction. Its not just some natural thing like ET described. Sure, saying "oh yeah, she looks good" is normal, but it that 2nd look thats wrong, and thats all in your mind. Attraction is natural, wanting to see any/all good looking women nude is in your own mind. You can train your mind to stop that too... I wont lie and say its easy.. but its possible.

And he said he was addicted to 'pr0n' for three years, i wonder what got him off of it?

Well.. there is good old fashion prayer ;) but.. you don't believe in that. Hey, its worth shot. You got to want it though... ;)
 Druid Bremen
08-17-2004, 4:51 AM
#54
I'm not saying that I watch porn or anything but:
So what if a woman was forced into prostitution due to lack of money? Its not our problem that she CHOSE to use this trade for quick money. Could she have chosen another trade? Yes. Since she CHOSE to trade her body for money, then the "buyers" have the right to do whatever they want with it, since she agreed to it. Thus, that argument is invalid.
 El Sitherino
08-17-2004, 5:02 AM
#55
I have a question. What constitutes pornography? I mean some people say Playboy is pornography, but then what about nude modeling in a non-sexual fashion. Or what about nude paintings, statues even? I mean people could still release themselves sexually to that, does that make it porn? What about old greek and roman statues in which many people are nude, do you think that is objective of women? Is the statue of David objective of men? Where is the line drawn?
What about nude beaches. People voluntarily being naked (much like with porn), is that making them objectified?

What I don't get is this crap sense of modesty. The human body is a beautiful thing, not something to be ashamed of.
 jack "odc" one.
08-17-2004, 5:11 AM
#56
It's also not impossible to "use" a woman "mentally" is she has clothes on.
 MasterNeo
08-19-2004, 2:27 PM
#57
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1


There is a huge difference between having sex, and watching sex. In fact, many people argue that christianity is for the weak, the people who have nothing to believe in, or just mentally/physically weak. You know what I think? Porn is for the men or women who cant control there own sexual desires. A crutch for the sexually weak minded. (No offense, of course)



Agreed.

You can watch all the porn you want. I'd rather focus my energies elsewhere besides becoming a slave to my hormones.

So many better things to do in life. Too little time for trivial useless things such as porn.
 ET Warrior
08-19-2004, 2:30 PM
#58
Originally posted by MasterNeo
So many better things to do in life. Too little time for trivial useless things such as porn.

Oh yeah? You out there solving world hunger or curing AIDS?

Who are you to say what you choose to do with your time is better than what other people choose to do with their time?

Unless of course you spend all your time on humanitarian work, in which case I agree that's better than porn
 Doomie
08-19-2004, 5:33 PM
#59
I find it funny that it's mostly the newbies with <10 posts that are against porn, and the regulars and Mods are almost addicted...

Anyway, porn isn't 'Bad' as i see it, since with intelligence (A feature you all, hopefully, possess) comes the ability to enjoy pleasure. An easy way to gain pleasure is to watch porn, simple as that. If you can find other ways to gain pleasure, go ahead, but saying Porn is bad would be something like saying FAntasy isn't fun and Sci-fi is. I hope you're all getting along with me now, because i'm a bit lost. Where was i goin gwith that again?
 shukrallah
08-22-2004, 9:13 PM
#60
Doomgiver: I think a lot of those people (obviously) knew each other and decided to tell there friends.. who then registered and posted just for this.

I can see how you would say its good because it gives you pleasure. And I'm sure most people would enjoy it. But heres the thing, (like I said before) at whos expense should your pleasure come at? It doesn't matter if he/she willingly took the pictures.

For example:

Your walking down the street, and you drop a 5 dollar bill. You don't know that you dropped. I see you drop, know you don't know, and go pick it up and put it in my pocket. Is it right for me to go to the store and buy something for my own enjoyment, with YOUR money? Not the best example, but an example it is. Keep in mind, I said it does not matter whether or not she wants to take the pictures!

ET:

And you masterbating in front of a bunch of nude "pix" helps the world right?

There are literally millions of things better to do than that. It is, no matter how hard you deny it, in vain. In The next hour/day/week/month/year will it matter to you that you saw porn on Aug. 21, 2004? I doubt it. (I'm not saying you saw it... that's the current date, and so I am using it as an example)

Like MasterNeo said, your just being a slave to your own hormones. Whats the point? Really, it serves no purpose. I guess half of what we do serves no purpose, but it could at least be constructive.

BTW, MasterNeo, thanks for the bold print and the editing, my posts have been kinda... one sided (like.. only referring to men) I guess it's because I am a guy.
 El Sitherino
08-22-2004, 9:39 PM
#61
it does serve a purpose, it releives the sexual pressure and stress that builds up in your body. :) and it feels good. I could say why do you play games? it brings you pleasure, but at who's expense? The creators, it doesn't matter that they were willing to spend thousands of hours for you pleasure. Point is, if it doesn't hurt anyone and it makes you happy, I see no problem, there are worse things people could do in their freetime.
 shukrallah
08-22-2004, 10:33 PM
#62
The differents between developers and porn stars is, the developers are losing time, while the porn star loses dignity. It is the person's own body.

We already know this: It does hurt people, it does effect people in a negative way. No matter how much good it *might* do some people, that doesn't make up for the bad. It can't make up for the bad.

I know we talked in IRC about the rapings, but even though doesn't happen often, it is dumb to think that it has never happend as a direct result, its just not often, and *normally* there is another factor, but like I said, porn could be the only factor in a specific raping. For that reason, porn shouldn't be around.

I see no problem, there are worse things people could do in their freetime.

Well... thats like saying "I killed one guy, but at least I didn't kill two" its just pointless. There are many good things you can do also.
 Tyrion
08-22-2004, 11:05 PM
#63
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1


Well... thats like saying "I killed one guy, but at least I didn't kill two" its just pointless. There are many good things you can do also.

Then please stop playing video games.

Your walking down the street, and you drop a 5 dollar bill. You don't know that you dropped. I see you drop, know you don't know, and go pick it up and put it in my pocket. Is it right for me to go to the store and buy something for my own enjoyment, with YOUR money? Not the best example, but an example it is. Keep in mind, I said it does not matter whether or not she wants to take the pictures!

Just because you said it didn't matter, doesn't mean that doesn't matter.

Let me rephrase what you said.

Your walking down the street, and you purposely drop a 5 dollar bill. You know that you dropped. I see you drop, know you did know it, and go pick it up and put it in my pocket. Is it right for me to go to the store and buy something for my own enjoyment, with YOUR money?
 SkinWalker
08-23-2004, 2:15 AM
#64
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
The differents between developers and porn stars is, the developers are losing time, while the porn star loses dignity. It is the person's own body.

I think we can all agree on how to measure time, but how does one measure one's dignity?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that dignity is a concept and construct of the human mind? I find it indignified to be put on the spot in public, such as when my wife goads me to do my flawless Scooby-Doo laugh for people I don't know. There are those, however, that live for those opportunities.

Perhaps you find it indignified to engage in sexual acts on camera, but for those that find no problem and are actually excited by it, why criticize them?

I take exception to anything non-consensual or illegal, but otherwise, those that produce and consume porn don't bother me. I don't particularly care for it, myself and think it takes up far too much of the internet's bandwidth, but I recognize that little can be done to effect it. Its supply and demand: economics 101 at its simplest.
 Mike Windu
08-23-2004, 3:22 PM
#65
Originally posted by SkinWalker
Its supply and demand: economics 101 at its simplest.

Exactly.

Dignity is just a concept, a perception of the human mind. Those not involved in porn may view it as degrading, but those that are involved in it may not feel a thing of guilt/degradation about it at all.

Perspective is the key here folks.
 Kain
08-24-2004, 2:53 AM
#66
The greatest irony of all is Jenna Jameson donates about 30% of her earnings to the church...

Thank you E! True Hollywood Story...


Expand your Imagi-Nation
 Druid Bremen
08-24-2004, 3:48 AM
#67
Some women like to get on camera, nude. Some like to publish those videos. Why? They like it. And if they like it, the "dignity" argument is invalid.
 El Sitherino
08-24-2004, 2:10 PM
#68
Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Some women like to get on camera, nude. Some like to publish those videos. Why? They like it. And if they like it, the "dignity" argument is invalid.
precisely. What is "shameful" and "embarassing" to one person, might not be to another. Case in point, nude beaches. Are those also degrading? I hope not, because many people actively enjoy them and do so out of their own free will.

Also, one can appreciate a naked body without it being sexual. :)
 ET Warrior
08-24-2004, 5:14 PM
#69
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
ET:

And you masterbating in front of a bunch of nude "pix" helps the world right?

Nope, but I never pretended that it is something better to do with my time. It's something I spend an average amount of time doing, more than some people but less than others. But why is it a worse way to spend my time than going outside and playing a silly game involving balls and other equipment? Or sitting in front of a TV screen and playing video games? None of those actually benefit anyone else, they're just for YOUR enjoyment.

And if you're going to link Rape to porn that means you link violence to violent media (including video games, movies, news, etc.). It all comes down to the mindset of the person watching it. If you aren't aple to differentiate between what you see that isn't real, and what you DO that is real, then you were crazy before you started watching porn, and odds are you would have ended up doing SOMETHING hurtful to someone else, be it rape, murder, theft, etc.
 El Sitherino
08-24-2004, 5:45 PM
#70
Originally posted by Kain
The greatest irony of all is Jenna Jameson donates about 30% of her earnings to the church...

Thank you E! True Hollywood Story...


Expand your Imagi-Nation She also donates money to help find cures for juvenile diabetes and cancer. :)
 Breton
08-24-2004, 6:24 PM
#71
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

We already know this: It does hurt people, it does effect people in a negative way. No matter how much good it *might* do some people, that doesn't make up for the bad. It can't make up for the bad.


Let's see...

- The actor gets easy-earned money, and obviously don't think showing her body is a big deal.

- The producers gets their money too.

- The users get...well, you know.

So, it's basically a win-win situation. How does porn hurt anyone? Am I missing something here?

All your arguments seem to build upon the allegation that porn does hurt someone, which is why I'd love you to explain it a bit further how it can possibly hurt anyone.

Like MasterNeo said, your just being a slave to your own hormones.

Porn feels good, doesn't harm anyone, and masturbation is only healthy. I don't see how choosing to use it classify to be anyone's slave.

I'd say having the fanatic belief that porn is immoral and thus deny yourself basic sexual pleasure is far more being a slave to anything.
 Mike Windu
08-24-2004, 10:32 PM
#72
And if you don't masturbate you get really really powerful, enough to tackle someone into a coma.


That kind of strength is unnecessary.:indif:


less you play football, or other sports like cross country :xp:


What all these other guys have said is that your perception of porn is different from a pornstar's perception. It's all very relative. :)
 Radd
08-26-2004, 8:42 PM
#73
Here's a thought.

"To the creative mind there is no right or wrong. Every action is an experiment, and every experiment yields its fruit in knowledge. To the moralist, every action can be judged as right or wrong--and, mind you, in advance--without knowing what its consequences are going to be-- depending upon the mental disposition of the actor. Thus the men who burned Giordano Bruno at the stake knew that they were doing good, even though the consequence of their actions was to deprive the world of a great scientist." -- Hagbard Celine
 Doomie
08-27-2004, 5:59 AM
#74
Clicky (http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10466280%255E421,00.html)


A little porn is 'good for you'
By Emma-Kate Symons and Kate Mackenzie
August 17, 2004


PORNOGRAPHY is good for people, the academic leading a taxpayer-funded study of the subject said yesterday, as the Coalition and Labor traded jibes about an Opposition push to stop online porn reaching home computers.
Alan McKee, who with academics Catharine Lumby and Kath Albury is conducting the Understanding Pornography in Australia study, said that a survey of more than 1000 porn-users must be taken into account as Labor considers forcing all internet service providers to automatically filter hardcore porn to protect children.

"The surprising finding was that pornography is actually good for you in many ways," Dr McKee said.

"When you look at people who are using it in everyday life, over 90 per cent report it has had a very positive effect."

Dr McKee said porn users reported it had taught them "to be more relaxed about their sexuality" and marriages were healthier, while porn made people think about another person's pleasure and made them less judgmental about body shapes.

"The more we try and turn porn into something that's seen to be bad and has to be kept away from families, the more problems we might be causing for ourselves."

Asked whether such results meant pornography was good for children, Dr McKee said: "I think you come there to an issue we can't answer - should children who are 16-years-old be allowed to be sexual?"

But the author of the policy before Mark Latham's office - supported by senior Labor figures including ALP national president Carmen Lawrence and communications spokesman Lindsay Tanner - Australia Institute executive director Clive Hamilton said: "No man who regularly uses pornography can have a healthy sexual relationship with a woman.

"The question is - how much are we willing to pay to protect our children from damaging pornographic images?"

The internet industry is up in arms at the proposals, which it says would be unworkable, and would punish smaller ISPs.

Chief executive of the Internet Industry Association, Peter Coroneos, said there were "technical and economic consequences", such as slowing down internet connections, to the approach recommended by the Australia Institute.

Complaints about internet porn are handled by the Australian Broadcasting Authority agency Netalert.

Communications Minister Helen Coonan accused Labor of "sheer hypocrisy" over the push to crack down on internet porn because its approach had been to "do nothing".

But Opposition IT spokeswoman Kate Lundy said Labor had pushed Canberra into legislating on spam and called for greater spending to educate parents, and increased funding for Netalert.

'nuff said...
 Radd
08-27-2004, 6:54 AM
#75
Understanding and knowing the facts of a topic are always good things. Too often when things are viewed as 'immoral' or 'evil', there are those that seek to push everything about the topic into the unknown. The idea is not to question, not to ask. Ignorance is bliss. Misconceptions then run rampant. Half truths and outright fallacies are taken as fact by a large portion of society. The original truths, if such truths ever existed at all, that originally brought about the opinion that such a thing was 'evil' are forgotten, and so the remaining belief is completely without context.

Something to consider whenever you think to label anything as 'evil'.
 El Sitherino
08-27-2004, 1:01 PM
#76
Australia Institute executive director Clive Hamilton said: "No man who regularly uses pornography can have a healthy sexual relationship with a woman. hahahaha, I beg to differ. :p
 Hiroki
08-28-2004, 8:03 PM
#77
Well, in truth, I am a Christian, but believe it or not, that isn't why I do not look at porn. I do not look at porn because I love one girl, and only that one. I would say that men who claim to be in a 'happy relationship' and look at porn, arn't really that happy at all.

The one you love should be all that you need. You shouldn't get a craving for other women. Naturally you'll glance at an attractive woman from time to time...but you always look away. You don't go home and wank over her...

If you find somebody, that you love, truely are in love with, you won't need any other girl to please you. :)
 El Sitherino
08-28-2004, 8:48 PM
#78
not true, sometimes you just can't get any, and you need to release it. ;)

just because I wank to the person, doesn't mean I love them or even find them attractive.
 shukrallah
08-28-2004, 9:38 PM
#79
and marriages were healthier

Bullcrap. I know.


And of course everyone will say positive things about porn, because they are being satisfied.
 El Sitherino
08-28-2004, 9:46 PM
#80
because there is nothing negative to say about it.
 Radd
08-28-2004, 10:47 PM
#81
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Bullcrap. I know.


And of course everyone will say positive things about porn, because they are being satisfied.

You have not provided any evidence to your claim, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I'm not saying you are wron,g I'm simply stating that you have not given an argument to back up the beliefs you've presented.

Hiroki, you present an idealized view of love, though one I still have faith exists for some people. However, for the majority, love means compromises. Sometimes you compromise a fully satisfying sex life to remain with a partner that is perfect in every other way. For such relationships, fantasy and pornography can be acceptable outlets for person making that compromise. It is certainly an outlet that does not cause further harm to the relationship in the way that seeking a more fullfilling sexlife in the arms of another person on the side would, or denyuing those desires altogether wich could cause problems at a later point in the relationship were the problem would be much more complex.

Another thing to consider is that different cultures, and different individuals do not view sex, sexuality, sexual satifaction, pornography, polygamy, open relationships, monogamy, or anything of these things in the same way. Some people think many of these things are bad, while others view them as healthy endeavours.

Some people in this thread have brought up the issue of dignity. In some cases that is an issue, in others it is not. Some people that work in the porn industry enjoy what they do very much, and do not think any less of themselves because of it.

Many people in this thread have equated pornography to naked pictures of women, completely overlooking the fact that male pornography exists, and the idea that some pornography of either men or women can be aimed at one gender or the other. Yes indeed there are women out there that enjoy pornographic images of other women. Does that turn women into objects for them?

Must one view porn stars as objects? To say this must be so is akin to saying that people must view their sexual partner as a object if they're to achieve any pleasure from it.

There are, of course, valid reasons not to like pornography, but these reasons are not limited to the porn industry at all. Also, all to often it seems to me that those crusading against porn are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
 shukrallah
08-29-2004, 11:38 AM
#82
Let me ask some questions:

Can you go one week without looking at porn (I mean... like... actually looking for porn, if something just "pops up" without any help on your part, then.. thats NOT your fault) If not.. your addicted.

(Personal question, no need to answere if you don't want to) Does your girlfriend think its ok for you to watch porn?

Hmmm. Last few questions:

Do you continue to look at the same pics, or do you continue to search for more forms of porn? If so, its obvious your sexual wants change, so... if you arent satisfied with one picture, how can you be satisfied with one woman? I think this ups your chances of cheating on her. I mean... look, if you can't control your sexual urges on a computer, how do you expect to when a sexy young woman starts hitting on you?





So what's so bad about pornography?
Overall, porn affects every viewer negatively, regardless of religious belief, creed, gender or age. Here is an ever-growing list of reasons that explain why.

1) Pornography feeds lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh, which are never satisfied. It leaves the viewer craving more and more in order to achieve the same "sexual high." It easily enslaves people to their own cravings and opens the door to other forms of evil, like anger, abuse, violence, hatred, lying, envy, compulsiveness and selfishness. The power behind porn is revealed when the porn addict tries to stop their habit - its virtually impossible without help.

2) Pornography sexualizes the viewer's mindset. It warps and perverts their perspective such that sex is unnaturally elevated in their thoughts. Porn's images are stamped into viewer's brain with the aid of hormones released during sexual arousal. Even if a person decides to stop looking at porn, the past images can remain for years or even a lifetime.

3) Pornography promotes destructive practices and can lead to progressive addiction. For example, porn sites routinely link viewers to depictions of every type of sexual perversion imaginable, such as child porn, homosexuality, bestiality, necrophilia (sexual interest in corpses), masochism (pleasure from abuse or suffering), rape and sadism (gratification from inflicting physical or mental pain on others). The viewer's exposure to such themes naturally increases the likelihood that they may attempt to act out what they've viewed. This can lead to sexual crimes, a la the late Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway (The Green River Killer).

4) Pornography intensifies an individual's drive to serve oneself, rather than serve others. For example, masturbation, which typically accompanies looking at pornography reinforces a self-centered sexual orientation (i.e. lust), which can detract from a person's ability to give and receive love.

5) Pornography addiction can lead to debt. The convenience of credit card transactions on the internet encourages covert spending without limit. Additionally, pornographers flood common internet areas with enticing banner ads ("teasers") and spam email, which bait potential viewers with free porn. Once lured by the free porn to the site, the viewers must then pay to see more.

6) By viewing and/or purchasing porn, viewers are supporting the porn industry and facilitating its growth. By viewing porn, the viewer is also contributing to the sexual exploitation of whoever or whatever is in the images he or she is viewing.

7) Looking at porn can damage the viewer's family relationships, not to mention increasing the chance of his or her spouse and children finding the material. Porn may also inspire the viewer to explore incest, which is a common porn theme. Other things porn may inspire in the viewer (which could in turn affect the family) include sexual frustration, lying, abuse, affairs, debt, violent behavior and irrational thinking. (see Testimonials on how porn destroys lives)

8) Looking at porn at work could damage the viewer's reputation, decrease his or her productivity and lead to job loss. It could also inspire unhealthy and/or inappropriate relationships with co-workers.

9) Looking at porn can damage the viewer's current or future marriage sex life. Porn viewers may find that it's difficult to enjoy true intimacy with their spouse when they're fantasizing about somebody else! Additionally, porn builds an unrealistic perception of sexual relations. Porn sex is a portrayal or an act made for the viewer's enjoyment. It takes what God intended as a private expression of love between a husband and wife and prostitutes it for entertainment. When a person has been looking at sexual pictures of other people for entertainment, he or she will have a downgraded value of sex. This in turn will detract from their appreciation and value of sex with their spouse.

10) Looking at porn will increase the viewer's tendency to lie, because he or she will have a natural desire to keep it secret to avoid criticism, embarrassment, shame and/or having to surrender their habit.

11) Looking at porn can lead a person into masturbation addiction.

12) Looking at porn brings serious spiritual consequences (see consequences page). For example, it opens the doorway to spiritual oppression and confusion in the viewer's life. The power behind pornography is inherently evil. It seeks to control and dominate the viewer's life, while allowing other forms of evil to gain influence in that person. Once a person starts looking at the porn, their eyes become the gateway for the evil power to enter them. As it gains influence, the evil can numb the viewer's ability discern right and wrong. As traditional moral values are blurred, confusion sets in.

13) Looking at porn helps you start to believe the lies it promotes. Examples lies include:

Sexual freedom = happiness
Perverted sex is more enjoyable than "normal" heterosexual sex (homosexual sex, incest, BDSM, etc)
There are no consequences to sexual promiscuity
Sexual expression is a right, not a God-given or God-defined gift
You can live a healthy life with the porn images floating around in your mind
Porn doesn't harm anyone
Sex is something to be done primarily for self gratification
The porn stars are the happiest people on earth
Adults can view porn without any lasting side effects
Porn will help your sex life
Porn is just a harmless thing that everybody looks at



Source:
http://www.porn-free.org/porn_is_bad.htm)


Many people in this thread have equated pornography to naked pictures of women, completely overlooking the fact that male pornography exists, and the idea that some pornography of either men or women can be aimed at one gender or the other. Yes indeed there are women out there that enjoy pornographic images of other women. Does that turn women into objects for them?


As for me, I know there are pictures of naked guys, and that women watch porn, but there are no women here posting about there porn viewing... thing.. (unless insane sith is lying... im kidding man) :D I mainly post about women in the porn, because I assume most guys look at women. I guess the fact that I am guy also makes me refer to women more than men, is a factor also.
 SkinWalker
08-29-2004, 2:27 PM
#83
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

1) Pornography feeds lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh, which are never satisfied. It leaves the viewer craving more and more in order to achieve the same "sexual high." It easily enslaves people to their own cravings and opens the door to other forms of evil, like anger, abuse, violence, hatred, lying, envy, compulsiveness and selfishness. The power behind porn is revealed when the porn addict tries to stop their habit - its virtually impossible without help.

"Lust of the eyes and lust of the flesh?" Lust is merely a human construct and exists only in the mind, not the unthinking eyes or "flesh." A trite point perhaps, but it demonstrates the pseudoscientific methodology of your source. What's the empirical data that supports the conclusion that pornography "opens the door to other forms of evil?" Remember, correlation does not immediately imply causation. Otherwise, there would be something to be concerned about eating white bread (90% of all convicted criminals eat white bread on a habitual basis after all).

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

2) Pornography sexualizes the viewer's mindset. It warps and perverts their perspective such that sex is unnaturally elevated in their thoughts. Porn's images are stamped into viewer's brain with the aid of hormones released during sexual arousal.

Again, more pseudoscience as far as I can tell. What is the empirical data that your source uses? What constitutes "unnaturally elevated?" What does a "sexualized mindset" consist of? This appears to be post-modernist garbage mixed with religiocentric perspective.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

3) Pornography promotes destructive practices and can lead to progressive addiction. [...] The viewer's exposure to such themes naturally increases the likelihood that they may attempt to act out what they've viewed. This can lead to sexual crimes, a la the late Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway (The Green River Killer).

Again, an obvious fallacy that lacks empirical data. Post hoc ergo propter hoc (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Post) hoc ergo propter hoc), to be exact. To suggest that sexual criminals got their start in pornography is ludicrous without empirical demonstration. In fact, I'd argue that there is likely a preponderance of evidence to the contrary. I'm personally aquainted with many people, perhaps several dozen, that enjoy pornography. None has ever been convicted or accused of anything more serious than a traffic ticket.

If the source is to be believed, Family Safe Media (2004) reports that the 2003 statistics of internet pornography included the following: 15-17 year olds having multiple hard-core exposures 80% Men admitting to accessing pornography at work 20% Women admitting to accessing pornography at work 13% US adults who regularly visit Internet pornography websites 40 million
In 2001, the number of rapes reported to law enforcement totaled 90,491 incidents (FBI, October 2002).

Taking into consideration that there were more than 250 million people in the U.S. in 2001 and that the pornography statistics above have not decreased, a little bit of math is all that is needed: 90.5 / 40,000 = .2%. Therefore, if each of the 90.5 k rapes were comitted as many rapists and each of these rapists were among the 40 million who look at internet porn (or even higher number that view other porn media), then only .2% of them become rapists. Hardly enough to draw a correlation.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

4) Pornography intensifies an individual's drive to serve oneself, rather than serve others.

What are the empirical data?

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

5) Pornography addiction can lead to debt.

What percentage of the 40 million internet porn users are in debt because of it? But then the key word there is "can," isn't it? For that matter, addiction to roller coasters can lead to debt (have you seen the price for an entry to 6 Flags?). The real consideration here is how many of the 40 million porn internet porn users and users of other pornographic media are truly addicted? What consistutes addiction? I think that once this is answered, it would be discoverd that only a small percentage of the population is actually addicted to some or multiple forms of pornography. Those addicted to the lotto are probably far higher and more problematic for society than porn (lotto is the tax on the ignorant, after all).

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

6) By viewing and/or purchasing porn, viewers are supporting the porn industry and facilitating its growth. By viewing porn, the viewer is also contributing to the sexual exploitation of whoever or whatever is in the images he or she is viewing.

Poppycock. What are the statistics on true exploitation (those being forced to create pornographic media) versus those that choose to participate and benefit financially? This is, again, merely some religiocentric loudmouths imposing their own self-righteous morality on others.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

7) Looking at porn can damage the viewer's family relationships, not to mention increasing the chance of his or her spouse and children finding the material.

Again: 40 million + porn users on the internet alone. Show me the empirical evidence that implies pornography as a causation for the 950,000 divorces that occured in 2001 (Kreider, 2001). Even if each and every one was related to porn, that still only 2.3% of the 40 million.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

8) Looking at porn at work could damage the viewer's reputation, decrease his or her productivity and lead to job loss. It could also inspire unhealthy and/or inappropriate relationships with co-workers.

Says what empirical data? You might also say that looking at porn could increase your odds of winning an iPod, since these ads frequently pop up during surfing the internet. Eating white bread again.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

9) Looking at porn can damage the viewer's current or future marriage sex life.

See refutation to number 7; for the rest, there is also an equally valid hypothesis that viewing porn can add to familial relationships, particularly the sex life.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

10) Looking at porn will increase the viewer's tendency to lie, because he or she will have a natural desire to keep it secret to avoid criticism, embarrassment, shame and/or having to surrender their habit.

Blah, blah, blah... empirical data?

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

11) Looking at porn can lead a person into masturbation addiction.

Perhaps in your case, but a study of one is too small a sample size. What statistics and studies does your source cite for masturbation addiction?

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

12) Looking at porn brings serious spiritual consequences

Religious poppycock based on unbounded concepts, therefore discarded from the argument as irrelevant.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

13) Looking at porn helps you start to believe the lies it promotes.


No more than reading science fiction & fantasy, regularly visiting the cinema or theatre, or playing RPG games. The human mind has both the abilities to lose itself in fantasy and separate fantasy from reality. Those that lose themselves in porn may already have problems with other imersions in fantasy, which would imply that it isn't pornography which is at fault, but the user.

In every single point that your source creates, there is a manufactured "fact" or set of "facts." This is consistent with pseudoscience, which seeks to create a false solution or answer based on scientific sounding verbage. But saying that X plus Y equals Z is meaningless unless the work can be shown.

Just because it seems intuitive on some level that pornography is bad for society doesn't mean that it truly is until the data are used to demonstrate it to be. It seems more likely to me that "porn" is a symptom of societal problems rather than societal problems being a symptom of porn.

But the unquestioning belief in baloney like this won't solve the problems. It certainly won't help identify them.

References:

FBI (October 2002). Crime in the United States, Uniform Crime Reports 2001. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice.

Family Safe Media (2004). Pornography Statistics 2003 Found at: http://www.familysafemedia.com/pornography_statistics.html)

Kreider, Rose (2001). Number, Timing, and Duration of Marriages and Divorces: Fall 1996. Current Population Reports, P70-80. U.S. Census Bureau, Washington, DC
 Hiroki
08-29-2004, 3:21 PM
#84
Originally posted by Radd
Sometimes you compromise a fully satisfying sex life to remain with a partner that is perfect in every other way. For such relationships, fantasy and pornography can be acceptable outlets for person making that compromise.

Well, I can answer that, by simply saying: If you truely love her, she would be beautiful to your eyes. :)

Edit: I should also note, that any post about this subject, including my own, are highly opinionated. :p
 Doomie
08-29-2004, 4:13 PM
#85
whoa, everybody seems to think i masturbate over nude pics as well. I don't defend porn because i like it, i do so because i see nothing negative about it. But i don't watch it myself.
 shukrallah
08-29-2004, 5:06 PM
#86
Poppycock. What are the statistics on true exploitation (those being forced to create pornographic media) versus those that choose to participate and benefit financially? This is, again, merely some religiocentric loudmouths imposing their own self-righteous morality on others.


It does fund the sites, by visiting and upping the hit count, loading ads, etc pays the "pornographers."

Lust is merely a human construct and exists only in the mind, not the unthinking eyes or "flesh."

Lust is a discription for a mental action, of course it only exists in the mind, thats the only place it can exist.

What does a "sexualized mindset" consist of?

Obviously its a mind fixed on sex.

See refutation to number 7; for the rest, there is also an equally valid hypothesis that viewing porn can add to familial relationships, particularly the sex life.


Read what else "I" said. Ill quote it for ya:

"Do you continue to look at the same pics, or do you continue to search for more forms of porn? If so, its obvious your sexual wants change, so... if you arent satisfied with one picture, how can you be satisfied with one woman? I think this ups your chances of cheating on her. I mean... look, if you can't control your sexual urges on a computer, how do you expect to when a sexy young woman starts hitting on you?"

Blah, blah, blah... empirical data?


Thats right skinwalker, lets make a new poll:

"How many people lie about looking at pornography?"

I bet they will tell the truth now ;)

No more than reading science fiction & fantasy, regularly visiting the cinema or theatre, or playing RPG games. The human mind has both the abilities to lose itself in fantasy and separate fantasy from reality. Those that lose themselves in porn may already have problems with other imersions in fantasy, which would imply that it isn't pornography which is at fault, but the user.


I realise your not nessesarily denying the "fact" but... still, reread the thread, some of the people here have said exactly that.

And of course skinwalker, because someone hasn't recorded a bunch of stats makes all of the info false.

Fortunatly, the site I visited has stats:



Current Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NCPCF seeks to be a source for the most current statistics on pornography and surrounding issues. If you do not see a statistic you are looking for, please call NCPCF at (513)521-6227.

Pornography

Approximately 40 million people in the United States are sexually involved with the Internet
Exposing Porn: Science, Religion, and the New Addiction, Paul Strand. Christian Broadcasting Network, 2004.
One in five children ages 10-17 have received a sexual solicitation over the Internet

Remainder of the statistics found at: http://www.nationalcoalition.org/stat.html)




Edit: Reduced quoted material to adhere to "fair use" standards and to reduce thread size. Please follow the link for relative stats. --SkinWalker
 ET Warrior
08-29-2004, 5:15 PM
#87
Originally posted by Hiroki
I would say that men who claim to be in a 'happy relationship' and look at porn, arn't really that happy at all.
Bollocks. I am AMAZINGLY happy with my current relationship, and I look at porn.
Originally posted by Hiroki
If you find somebody, that you love, truely are in love with, you won't need any other girl to please you. :) Well, perhaps I'm not TRULY in love, though I'd say so. I love my girlfriend more than anything in this world and would do anything for her, and yet, I look at porn. Your statement there is slightly fallacious though, looking at porn doesn't mean I'm having another girl pleasing me. I'm pleasing myself with visual aids :dozey:
 Hiroki
08-29-2004, 8:37 PM
#88
Why can you not simply think of the girl you love, when you need "visual aids"?
 ZBomber
08-29-2004, 9:04 PM
#89
Originally posted by Hiroki
Why can you not simply think of the girl you love, when you need "visual aids"?

Because..... the "pay off" is better. Duh.

Now, luke, porn has done some bad things to you, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Let's use medicine for an example. Some people can die or get sick from side-effects, but for other people, it does nothing other than what it's supposed to do. Of course, porn doesn't kill anyone, but you know what I mean. ;)
 Hiroki
08-29-2004, 9:07 PM
#90
*his IQ drops from hearing ZBombers answer to his question* Uh...thanks for that... *smacks into a wall*
 ZBomber
08-29-2004, 9:12 PM
#91
Originally posted by Hiroki
*his IQ drops from hearing ZBombers answer to his question* Uh...thanks for that... *smacks into a wall*

Well, there isn't a "scientific" reason for that..... why would you want to see an image in your head, when you could see a REAL image, not one generated from your mind. Just pretend it's your g/f. :p
 El Sitherino
08-29-2004, 9:26 PM
#92
Originally posted by Hiroki
Why can you not simply think of the girl you love, when you need "visual aids"? some people don't have that good of a mental rendering of images. You know, that whole imagination deal.
 SkinWalker
08-29-2004, 9:40 PM
#93
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
It does fund the sites, by visiting and upping the hit count, loading ads, etc pays the "pornographers."

Capitalism at its best. No one appears "exploited." To click or not to click is the user's choice most of the time. In regards to other media, the user chooses to rent or buy. The models choose to pose or act out the sex.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Lust is a discription for a mental action, of course it only exists in the mind, thats the only place it can exist.

And yet your quote discussed "lust" as being a part of the eye and the "flesh," as if the epithelial layers of the body had some separate consciousness.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
"Do you continue to look at the same pics, or do you continue to search for more forms of porn? If so, its obvious your sexual wants change, so... if you arent satisfied with one picture, how can you be satisfied with one woman?

And yet, what explains the thousands of people who are completely monogomous and still enjoy pornographic images? Indeed, what is the empirical data that supports the notion that porn leads to polygomous relationships?

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
And of course skinwalker, because someone hasn't recorded a bunch of stats makes all of the info false.

Fortunatly, the site I visited has stats:

You obviously missed my point. I'm saying that the correlation to pornography and other "evils" may or may not exist. But it is ignorant and irresponsible to presume so without supporting data. Saying the correlation exists doesn't make it exist. Demonstrating the correlation is necessary. Your site's statistics did not support the site's claims. None of the claims on the pseudoscience site were supported in the statistics.

In fact, I used some of the very same statistics to prove that a correlation did not exist between pornography and rape that would suggest a causation.

The site is pseudoscience. And furthermore, it is irresponsible.
 jack "odc" one.
08-29-2004, 11:31 PM
#94
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
"Do you continue to look at the same pics, or do you continue to search for more forms of porn? If so, its obvious your sexual wants change, so... if you arent satisfied with one picture, how can you be satisfied with one woman? I think this ups your chances of cheating on her. I mean... look, if you can't control your sexual urges on a computer, how do you expect to when a sexy young woman starts hitting on you?"
as far as i can tell, and after my experience girls (especially my girl) think this way, good sex is not about always being the same routine, it must not be always "fluffy", "romantic" and "lovely". to keep a sexlife "exciting" sex should vary. that does not imply a man/woman "needs" multiple "men/women" to be happy. and it does not imply "extraordinary techniques" or whatever. it just implies what it says: variation. and it always depends to what a man/woman prefers.
 Hiroki
08-30-2004, 5:29 AM
#95
Let me clear some things up with my opinion. There is pornography, and there is "pr0n". ;) Now personally, I look at neither. But I know some people who look at 'porn', and are married, and I do not hold it against them.

Pornography are simple photo shoots, that allow you to admire the nude body of a woman, as something beautiful. You do not wank over her in general, but admire the female body for the beautiful thing it is.

'pr0n' is sex smut. Tasteless displays of people having warped forms of sex. Now, if you aren’t married, if you aren’t in a stable relationship, knock yourself out on this crap, if you want to waist your time. But I can not stand by somebody claiming to be happily in love, and in a happy relationship, saying that they NEED to look at this to make it work.

That should clear things up for you.
 Doomie
08-30-2004, 6:03 AM
#96
Er... pr0n is just another word for the same things. You're practically saying palyboy is full of art....

Also, if pornography was art, then it would be called art, and pr0n would be called pornography...
 ET Warrior
08-30-2004, 6:11 AM
#97
Originally posted by Hiroki
But I can not stand by somebody claiming to be happily in love, and in a happy relationship, saying that they NEED to look at this to make it work.

I never said I NEED porn. I merely said I enjoy watching porn from time to time. And don't you try and tell me I'm not happily in love, because you are wrong.
 Hiroki
08-30-2004, 7:25 AM
#98
Well, I feel sorry for you then, ET. I really do, but to each his own I guess... :(

And no, playboy is no art. They arn't in perverted poses, in the photo shoots I mention.
 ET Warrior
08-30-2004, 7:28 AM
#99
Originally posted by Hiroki
Well, I feel sorry for you then, ET. I really do,

Do NOT feel sorry for me. There is nothing to be sorry about. I am a healthy 19 year old male in a healthy long-term relationship with a girl who makes my life better. Porn is just another one of the activities I enjoy, like watching movies or playing video games.
 SkinWalker
08-30-2004, 7:33 AM
#100
I think when people like that say "I feel sorry for..." others, they really mean that they're sorry that others don't think the way they do.

Ethnocentrism, religiocentrism, and cultural relativism.
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