*Tries to remain unviolent and calm.*

O.K. I am a noob modder. More like a remaker. If you haven't see my mods at www.pcgamemods.com) you should. Better yet go to www.lucasfiles.com) because the AOTCTC disabled my mods.


Here is where the problem starts:

I created and released a "Dark Jedi Starfighter," an inverted color Jedi Starfighter--that was made by Aaron Smith--with numerous tweaks. I also created another version of the Republic Gunship that was made by Mars Marshall. My Republic Gunship is definitely a bit better. It now shoots lasers and missiles. All was merry and happy, cause people were downloading them like crazy. I had 66 downloads for my Republic Gunship.


Here is the problem:

DarkLord66 came along from the AOTCTC and said,"I am co-team leader of AotcTC and we own this model you have no right to modify it without permission I am going to have to request that it will be taken down."

Well, not just my Republic Gunship, but my Dark Jedi Starfighter Version 2 was disabled also.


Here are my arguments:

1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!!

2. Mars Marshall created the Republic Gunship and he is MIA. Aaron Smith created the Jedi Starfighter. I gave proper credit to them. But, in the revised rules of www.pcgamemods.com), you do not have to get permission.

3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right?

4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's.

5. Other websites like www.jedimoves.com) and www.lucasfiles.com) and www.pcgamemods.com) itself have the Jedi Starfighter and Republic Gunship. Why didn't the AotCTC get upset about it everywhere else?

6. Before my "Dark Jedi Starfighter," there was a "Sith Starfighter. Just a reskinned Jedi Starfighter. Why wasn't that one disabled? It was made by a guy named Sokar.


Please, if you would like to support me, post the following:

Name:
E-mail: (Optional)
Reason to support majinrevan:


If you post here, then I will send many e-mails to the AotCTC with the posts as a petition and pray that they see that they are wrong.

If you think I just want to give the AotCTC trouble, think again. I fully supported the AotCTC until now. I am excited about it.

So, please post here to support me. Oh, and if you want my mods, go to www.lucasfiles.com). They have all four of them.
:fett:

what's your aim sn or e-mail?

My AIM is majinfedprez. My e-mail address is dbzpkr@yahoo.com

I think they could be a bit looser about their models too, you have my support.

Yes, I agree. Also, thank you for the support.

I had and have a user name at AOTCTC but i dont think ill use it anymore. I say if you remade the mods better and had pemission and or didnt need it AOTCTC was probally just jealous of your work. give them hell too from me and you. my email is Himelement92@aol.com. good luck

man, that is ridiculous. if the modding community is sliding into something corporate where other people's works can be taken and then "copyrighted" to be affiliated with something else, that is just bad bad news. you have my support bro.

Please, some more support.

You most definately have MY support. Mars didn't request the disabling, so they can't disable it. But it he does, I'm outta the picture :'-(.

You most definately have MY support. Mars didn't request the disabling, so they can't disable it. But if he does, I'm outta the picture :'-(.

Wow I keep getting double posts lately... hmmm... I say we rerelease loads of modded aotctc stuff to pcgamemods. that would be funny :)

Mars gave these files to AOTCTC. Therefore, they DO have rights over these files.

Here are my rebukes:

Originally posted by majinrevan
1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!!
Incorrect. Mars Marshall is a staff member at AotCTC, and these vehicles were created for their mod. Hence, they belong to AotCTC (and Mars).
2. Mars Marshall created the Republic Gunship and he is MIA. Aaron Smith created the Jedi Starfighter. I gave proper credit to them. But, in the revised rules of www.pcgamemods.com), you do not have to get permission.
You did give proper credit to them. And we don't require permission. However, if the original author(s) request that your "remake" not be hosted by PCGM, I will comply. We respect the rights of the original authors as opposed to those who are "remaking" it.
3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right?
Used, yes. Modded around with, sure - but for your own use. It'd be like if you made a piece of art and mass produced it, then someone took your art and changed some things about it (maybe in a way you didn't like) then tried to release it as theirs, how would you feel? Upset? Angry? Distraught? Why should ethics on the internet be any different than in real life? You don't steal from people you see on the street (I would hope) so why do it here?
4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's.
You didn't do anything they couldn't have done themselves. And as you haven't retextured it or remodeled it, I fail to see how it is an improvement upon the original work.
5. Other websites like www.jedimoves.com) and www.lucasfiles.com) and www.pcgamemods.com) itself have the Jedi Starfighter and Republic Gunship. Why didn't the AotCTC get upset about it everywhere else?
If other websites want to host your file, take it there. But as I said before, on PCGM we respect the rights of the original author(s). As for the second question, I can't answer that - only AotCTC can, so if you're looking for an answer I suggest you talk to them.
6. Before my "Dark Jedi Starfighter," there was a "Sith Starfighter. Just a reskinned Jedi Starfighter. Why wasn't that one disabled? It was made by a guy named Sokar.
Again, you'd have to talk with AotCTC to get that answered.

In closing, AotCTC has the right to not have their files modified - whether other file sites will respect that right or not is up to them.

Originally posted by Eldritch
Here are my rebukes:
You didn't do anything they couldn't have done themselves. And as you haven't retextured it or remodeled it, I fail to see how it is an improvement upon the original work.


Umm, I did sorta kinda add lasers, improve shielding, change sounds, improve speed, improve damage, change rockets to homing concussion missiles--the AotCTC could've done it, certainly, but what counts is, that they didn't.

AOTC:TC doesn't want you editing their stuff, 'nuff said!

You have my support for your creations. And I would like to reffer to another situation similar to this.


the Tyrion model made by Bloodriot. He hasnt been seen for a long time and people still make skins from that model. And they have clearly stated the same thing as AotC TC has:

"Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future."

That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net.

Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work. But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community.

hey just a question majinrevan. after you get alot of support what do you plan on doing?

Originally posted by Zappa_0
the Tyrion model made by Bloodriot. He hasnt been seen for a long time and people still make skins from that model. And they have clearly stated the same thing as AotC TC has:

"Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future."

That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net.
And if Tim "Absath" Buckley ever shows up at PCGM and requests that any reskin based on his and Bloodriot's Tyrion model is disabled or removed, I will comply.
Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work.
They don't have to - in the US, you are granted copyright the minute you make your work tangible (i.e. more than just an idea). To be able to sue someone for using your work inappropriately you must be registered, but the copyright is still yours. If you don't believe me, I strongly urge you to check out some copyright law books. "Knowing what would happen" - now that's funny. You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors. Instead, you just say, "Well, they should've known that we would steal their work, alter it (sometimes badly), and submit it as our own." This attitude makes me sick. Do you use a pirated copy of JA as well, Zappa?
But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community.
That's not true - Raven couldn't do anything, because they are not distributing anything belonging to Raven, and thus are in full compliance with the copyright agreement. However, the company that could do something belongs to George Lucas. Lucasarts (and their parent companies) hold the copyrights to the characters, vehicles, etc that have been created for the use of the AotCTC mod. And nothing short of their intervention could forcibly shut the AotCTC mod down.

To answer your questions Eldritch, I own a full version 2 disc CD game that I preordered straight from LucasArts. I take it that you hate all reskins of stuff? Well if it wasnt for those people to make skins their wouldnt be a big JO/JA editing community. I was using Tyrion as an example to Mars' work because they are both MIA. What harm is a few reskins gonna do? Huh answer that. And you say "You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors." They are some great skinners out there, sometimes they make it look better or give a certain thing a better look. And I dont like you trying to put words in my mouth. Please dont do that. I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much. And as for the Jedi Starfighter, ive read the read me and nothing says that it cannot be reskinned. So you need to re-enable his JSF skin and other JSF skins, unless you have a better reason not to.

Originally posted by Zappa_0
To answer your questions Eldritch, I own a full version 2 disc CD game that I preordered straight from LucasArts. I take it that you hate all reskins of stuff?
No, sometimes authors of reskins do a good job - I only consider it a problem when the original author isn't given any credit at all.
Well if it wasnt for those people to make skins their wouldnt be a big JO/JA editing community.
But there are certainly many people in the community who should probably stop recoloring other people's work.
I was using Tyrion as an example to Mars' work because they are both MIA. What harm is a few reskins gonna do? Huh answer that.
You wouldn't understand, Zappa. If you had ever invested time in a product and then had someone take it from you, change something, and submit it as their own without crediting you you'd be singing a different tune, especially if it made your hard work look like crap.
And you say "You would think that someone who invested there personal time into something would be given a bit more respect from the community that benefits from their labors." They are some great skinners out there, sometimes they make it look better or give a certain thing a better look.
I've already said that sometimes these skinners do make it look better. The thing is, normally the ones who make it look better are the ones who give credit where credit is due. The ones that recolor it or superimpose clan tags all over the skin typically do not give credit to the original author. However, if they did, I don't care what they do with the skin (unless the original author shows up and requests that it is removed).
And I dont like you trying to put words in my mouth. Please dont do that. I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much.
They have the right to be as extreme as they want. Not everyone is as lax as you in the ethics department, and they only want to protect their work. Another thing that happens when multiple versions of the same file is released by different authors is that people become confused as to who the original author is. As a result, you'll get some 2nd and 3rd generation reskins that don't credit the original author.
And as for the Jedi Starfighter, ive read the read me and nothing says that it cannot be reskinned. So you need to re-enable his JSF skin and other JSF skins, unless you have a better reason not to.
As I've already stated in an earlier post, AotCTC has contacted me about disabling the file. If you have a problem with it being disabled, I suggest you talk to them.

First off, I apologize for what is going to be a long post, and restate things that have been posted by others :)

Originally posted by majinrevan
1. The AotCTC did not create the Republic Gunship or Jedi Starfighter. I don't care if they are using them, the didn't create it!! It does not matter. The creator either created the work for the project, which is an employer/employee relationship where the copyright is owned by the employer (AOTCTC), or the creator transfered thier copyright to a new owner. In any event AOTC (and Lucasarts) does own the mod. You do not, and this have no right to alter their work without their permission.

Originally posted by majinrevan
3. Even if I needed to get permission and I didn't, mods are to be used and modded around with, right? Half right. They are to be used. Not moddified. Just like you have no right to alter a book or song and release it for public consumption.

Originally posted by majinrevan
4. The AotCTC could certainly use my Republic Gunship for themselves. I would be honored to let them. It is, you have to admit, a bit better than Mars Marshall's. Irrelevant. It could be the best thing ever. It doesn't, in any way, give you the right to do it.

Originally posted by majinrevan
Please, if you would like to support me, post the following: People can post their support all they want. It doesn't change the law.

Originally posted by majinrevan
If you post here, then I will send many e-mails to the AotCTC with the posts as a petition and pray that they see that they are wrong. But they are not wrong. You are wrong :)

Originally posted by Tinny
man, that is ridiculous. if the modding community is sliding into something corporate where other people's works can be taken and then "copyrighted" to be affiliated with something else, that is just bad bad news. Copyright law has nothing to do with corporations. Actually, copyright law is designed to protect the individual against corporations :) What Mars and AOTCTC has done is perfectly within their right under copyright law. People should be allowed to protect their work without others taking advantage of them.

Originally posted by majinrevan
Umm, I did sorta kinda add lasers, improve shielding, change sounds, improve speed, improve damage, change rockets to homing concussion missiles--the AotCTC could've done it, certainly, but what counts is, that they didn't. Irrelavent.

Since you do not have permission to use this mod as the basis for your mod, why not just create your own? They only own the copyright for their own implementation. If you made your own models, you could mod and tweek them as you saw fit. You would own everything, and if you wanted others to recolour them or whatever, you could give permission to do so.

Originally posted by
Zappa_0
"Note: Bloodriot and Absath have asked that you do not reskin this model or make an SP mod of it as they have plans for this model in the future."

That statement was made in the release of the model in June 2002 and as I said before theres a good number of Tyrion reskins on the net. And those reskins are violating the copyright. Bloodriot and Absath have just chosen to not enforce that copyright. AOTCTC has chosen to enforce theirs.

Originally posted by
Zappa_0
Yes maybe Mars is apart of AotC TC, but he submitted them knowning what would happen. Also I believe AotC TC has not went through any legal processes to protect their work. I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you implying that AOTCTC had to go through some legal steps to get the copyright? Or are you saying they haven't gone through legal steps to protect that copyright?

In the former, since the work was done for AOTCTC they own the copyright automatically, and don't have to go through any steps to achieve that. If you mean the latter, that is certainly within their right. But instead they have chosen to just ask that the mod be taken down. PCGAMEMODS has complied.

Originally posted by
Zappa_0
But I think if they did something like that Raven would get on to them and maybe close their work down. I say their policies are corrupt and should be changed for the good of the gaming community.Just to clarify, it is Lucasarts that might get on them, as they own the copyright for Raven's work :)

In any event, the EULA that we all agreed to when we installed and played the game states that...

"Rules Governing New Levels: "New Levels" are data that modify, add to, or
substitute for data in the Software, thus modifying, adding to, or replacing levels
provided by LucasArts in the Software, and may also include saved games, and
scenarios created using the skirmish features of the Software. New Levels may be permitted by LucasArts, in its sole discretion, on the following conditions. You agree that the following conditions apply to your creation of any New Levels:

(7) By distributing or permitting the distribution of any New Levels, all creators or owners of any trademark, copyright, or other right, title or interest therein grant to LucasArts an irrevocable, perpetual, royalty-free, sublicensable right to distribute or exploit the New Level by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented), and to create and distribute by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented) derivative works thereof, and to charge for the distribution of such New Level or such derivative work, with no obligation to account to any creators or owners of the New Level in any manner."

Lucasarts recognizes that the creators and owners of mods own the copyright for their work. So they have no problem with AOTCTC enforcing their copyright for this mod. What the EULA garuntees is that Lucasarts can use these mods in any way they see fit without permission from the author. Also, modders give them the right to stop them from producing such mods:

"(8) LucasArts may revoke your right or permission to use, distribute or make New
Levels at any time and in its sole discretion."

So AOTCTC and Lucasarts policies are not not corrupt because what they are doing is well within the rights granted to them by copyright law and the game's EULA.

What is "corrupt" is modifying a copyrighted work without permission from the copyright owner. This will always be against the law. I think you'll agree that any creative works that are prevented due to copyright law may unfortunately be lost, but it is necessary so that creative people can protect their work.

If majinrevan really wants to modify a Jedi starfighter or gunship, he can make is own. This way, copyrights are protected and his work gets released, and so nothing is lost.

Originally posted by
Zappa_0
I only started posting in this thread because of AotC TC's extreme behavior that is not needed when people wants to use the stuff they make, which hasnt been much. AOTCTC behavior has not been, by any stretch, extreme. People can want to modify things all they want, it doesn't mean they have the right to do so without permission.

Certainly the vast majority of mod author's (like me :D ) give permission to use their work in other mods. So I don't think we are in any danger of stiffling the creative work in the community. :)

I've already said that sometimes these skinners do make it look better. The thing is, normally the ones who make it look better are the ones who give credit where credit is due. The ones that recolor it or superimpose clan tags all over the skin typically do not give credit to the original author. However, if they did, I don't care what they do with the skin (unless the original author shows up and requests that it is removed).

Original Author : Mars Marshall (NOT AotCTC)

Mars hasn't requested the disabling of any files as far as I can tell.

Although I agree that since Mars made it for AotCTC, and they do sort of share ownership with him, according to the rules of pcgamemods, they still don't have the right to disable it. Only Mars does. If that rule allowed them to disable it, I wouldn't be in this thread.

Originally posted by Eldritch
Mars Marshall is a staff member at AotCTC, and these vehicles were created for their mod. Hence, they belong to AotCTC (and Mars). Mars made the mod for AOTCTC, and as such transfered copyright ownership to the owners of that project (of which he is a part).

Since they do own the copyright, they have the right to demand that others not modify it :)

That being said, would people be more inclined to comply with this request if Mars himself makes it? Not that that changes anything from a legal standpoint...

Ture that they do own the copyright, but the rules of pcgamemods say only the original author can have the file disabled. That doesn't make them the original author. And if Mars rquested that the files be disabled, I'd be gone in a flash.

Im going to get these two threads locked/deleted this is the childish attitude that is putting people off Mods AoTC:TC is having some hard times at the moment and things like this are not helping.

At the end of the day its my/our project and we have ultimate control over it. The staff and its files contained our files and ours alone.

I will be posting more about this soon, and I will be having word on our forums, do not bring this up on Lucasforums, this belongs on our forums.

Anakin

Anakin why are you afriad of a few reskins? They will do no harm to your little TC. Hell it might even help it out some. Also do you think you can stop these people by closing and deleting this thread? I think not. I think it will only cause more harm then good. And from the view theres people who really dont like you. I know you can make everyone like you, theres really no way. But there has to be a way to settle this without conflict. And maybe you can do something to please bothsides.


And to Eldritch, yes I dont know how that feels if someone stole my work. But if I made a model and put it out to the public and someone made reskins of it, I would be flatered that they decided to use it. Also maybe they can do something to it that I never dreamed about doing. Look at the Mace Windu reskin to Jolee from KOTOR. Thats one hell of a skin. I guess the main lookout of it is from the creater and how greedy they wanna be.

Anakin, locking/deleting the threads of people with legit concerns is not the way to get people involved with AotC TC. Instead, it just drives people away.

The fact that my posts and threads were deleted or locked on two seperate occasions was one of the primary motivators behind my vote to drop the OJP/AotCTC partnership.

Besides, someone would probably start a new thread anyway. But maybe what you could do is allow people to reskin your models, but maybe require them to send a hi-res photo of the completed project to AotcTC first? That way you can decide if it's okay to release, of if it disgraces the original model. (I believe Antizac does something like this with his models. Nice idea.) Or maybe they have to include the original readme? Or something along those lines?

O.K., I have read everyone's posts (except Prime's long one, I was in school).


Here is what I now think with a new perspective:

1. Eldritch, you are right, I would be angry if someone changed my mod and made it worse. However, if it was better at all, I would applaud them and let them post it.

2. Anakin, I understand you completely. But, closing threads will not help you at all, I can assure you of that. Actually, most of the purpose of this thread was to get you into it so I could talk to you. Here is the polite thing that I have been meaning to tell you:

I would like permission to use any/all of your vehicles and modify them/reskin them. I understand completely if you disagree. I know, my modding sucks, and you probably will say no to the following: You can use my remake of Mars Marshall's Republic Gunship if you want. I know that anyone involved in the AotCTC could have done what I did. But, I stand by one thing that I said: The AotCTC could've done what I did, but they didn't and I did. That's what counts.

Anakin, please consider this offer and my request. I respect you greatly because you are taking on such a large and worthy project, and you are definitely better at modding.

3. Zappa_0, I agree that the AotCTC souldn't be mad about a minor reskin. But, I might have done the same if I knew how to make vehicles.


Well, there are my comments. I sincerely hope that Anakin reads what I wrote to him.
:fett:

Originally posted by majinrevan
O.K., I have read everyone's posts (except Prime's long one, I was in school). Yeah, sorry about that :cool:

This post is not meant to demean or place blame on anyone...

OK, after reading most of the posts about is going on, I have a few thoughts. I am not in any way a modder, skinner, mapper, etc. I am, however, semi-interested in getting into all of that. I just don't have the time. With that said, is there a thread or some other place where the exact laws/rules are for making mods/skins/maps?

Now, I read what Prime put up about the EULA from Lucasarts. I understand that. I also understand what it means to cite/give credit to other people's work. I fully agree that is a have-to/must by law. It's only right.

From what I have read and I think I understand, let me put it in a different way:

Let's say that a person works for a company that makes a product. That person comes up with a new product for the company. That product is now owned by the company. Therefore, it is protected, by law, under the copyright acts and laws.

The question now is: who does permission have to come from in order to use that product? It now comes down to these "Big Ifs":

1) If Mars Marshall made those models for anyone to use and the team from AOTCTC asked him if they may use those models, then (from what I have read) permission must come from Mars Marshall himself.

2) If Mars made those specifically for AOTCTC, then permission must come from AOTCTC for use.

I have also seen in the "Readme" files of other mods that authors have said that no one may edit/tweak/whatever any part of there mod and re-release to the public as a completely different mod. From what I have read, a person and edit/tweak/whatever a mod as long as they keep it to themselves.

Majinrevan, unfortunately, if #2 "If" is the rule/law, you are in the wrong. Yes, you may have credited Mars for the models, but you did not have the permission from AOTCTC to edit or tweak them. It's kind of like taking Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemmingway and changing a few names and maybe some of the events and calling it a new book.

I hope this is correct and hopefully this will all be mediated soon...

did you even do work to the textures? if not it's not a reskin. That might be their problem that you barely changed the skin, thus it just being they're same ship, only modified in the .veh file.

Will this childish arguement ever stop? This is the deal:

Originally posted by TK-8252
AOTC:TC doesn't want you editing their stuff, 'nuff said!

Originally posted by TK-8252
Will this childish arguement ever stop? This is the deal:


just for emphasis...but seriously this talk is good and all, but i doubt it's going to change anything. in all honesty, be glad you have your files up in other places and just continue to skin.

Originally posted by razorace
Anakin, locking/deleting the threads of people with legit concerns is not the way to get people involved with AotC TC. Instead, it just drives people away.

The fact that my posts and threads were deleted or locked on two seperate occasions was one of the primary motivators behind my vote to drop the OJP/AotCTC partnership. yes indeed I found those locked topics
Originally posted by Anakin
childish
You don't expect to run away from problems and hope they will be solved in your back? If you are so certain from your point of view, you have nothing to fear

Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick. If you didn't modify the model why include it in the pk3? Put up the pk3 with the skin and modified npc or vehicle files with a link to the original model.

Just make sure the npc file is pointed to your new skin.

or...

Just make sure to name your pk3 in a way so that the game sees your pk3 after it sees the original then it'll use your files instead of the original.

cry, cry, cry, whine, whine, whine.

Originally posted by keshire
Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick. If you didn't modify the model why include it in the pk3? Put up the pk3 with the skin and modified npc or vehicle files with a link to the original model.

Just make sure the npc file is pointed to your new skin.

or...

Just make sure to name your pk3 in a way so that the game sees your pk3 after it sees the original then it'll use your files instead of the original.

cry, cry, cry, whine, whine, whine. *inserts laughs*

Originally posted by keshire
Jesus Christ on a Pogo stick. **** the Jedi Starfighter, I want that mod!

Originally posted by manoman81
The question now is: who does permission have to come from in order to use that product? It now comes down to these "Big Ifs":
It does indeed. I'm going to be responding based on the copyright laws of the US.
1) If Mars Marshall made those models for anyone to use and the team from AOTCTC asked him if they may use those models, then (from what I have read) permission must come from Mars Marshall himself.

2) If Mars made those specifically for AOTCTC, then permission must come from AOTCTC for use.
Mars Marshall was a member of AotCTC when he created the work, and it was created for their use. As such, the copyright ownership was transferred from Mars to AotCTC. So as a matter of who the original author is (in copyright law), it's AotCTC. Mars can still be credited as the creator, but since AotCTC owns it, it's at their discretion as to what to do with it.
I have also seen in the "Readme" files of other mods that authors have said that no one may edit/tweak/whatever any part of there mod and re-release to the public as a completely different mod. From what I have read, a person and edit/tweak/whatever a mod as long as they keep it to themselves.
That's true - what you do for your own personal use is different. But when you mass distribute it, then copyright law comes into play.
Majinrevan, unfortunately, if #2 "If" is the rule/law, you are in the wrong. Yes, you may have credited Mars for the models, but you did not have the permission from AOTCTC to edit or tweak them. It's kind of like taking Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemmingway and changing a few names and maybe some of the events and calling it a new book.
Exactly. Nice analogy (and good book).

LOL. ****house lawyers are always funny. Read the end user license agreement. Any mod made for JA is property of Lucas Arts, they are the only entity that holds any legal copywrite.

I'd like to see AOTC TC try to sue someone for moding files they made for JA and then released them for free to the public for download. It won't ever happen.

That section of the EULA is not legally enforceable in the US. It's not possible to sign away your legal rights (in this case copyright for your own work) without 'fair' compensation.

If that section was actually true, Lucasarts could just start publishing fan material without permission instead of spending a lot of good money coming up with their own.

Anikin, quit pulling your weight around. I think since NeoMarz did that stuff, even if he lets you use those modles that he should be the one to say how they are used. I mean c'mon, its all property of Lucasarts anyway. How would you like it if one day they came and told you to quit doing your mod cause they were going to make a game of AOTCTC. If you don't want anyone elce to mod them don't release them. He gave Marz cerdit didn't he. Shesh!

Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet
Anikin, quit pulling your weight around. I think since NeoMarz did that stuff, even if he lets you use those modles that he should be the one to say how they are used. I mean c'mon, its all property of Lucasarts anyway. How would you like it if one day they came and told you to quit doing your mod cause they were going to make a game of AOTCTC. If you don't want anyone elce to mod them don't release them. He gave Marz cerdit didn't he. Shesh! That's not the point. The ships were basically the same thing, just edited in the .veh file. Thus it's barely a skin job. So he inverted the texture on the JSF, it's hardly a skinning job.

This (I'll say again) childish arguement isn't getting anyone anywhere. Do you people just love going on and on? AOTC:TC is NOT going to change their policy just so someone can release someone else's work with a different veh file. :roleyess:

mods and TC's are for the community. If developers dont want ppl using them, they shouldnt release them. If LEC/Raven didnt want modders to mod, they wouldnt have released the mod tools. I think that AOTC should just keep all their files if they dont want people tinkering with them. He did give credit which is more that i can say for a few ppl during the [modname]++ mods of JK2. He didnt blatently rip off work, he tried to improve upon something someone else made. ATOC isnt claiming tomake their own game, they are improving on what Raven released.

Originally posted by <-KRT->Dhart
LOL. ****house lawyers are always funny. Read the end user license agreement. Any mod made for JA is property of Lucas Arts, they are the only entity that holds any legal copywrite. Actually, that is not entirely correct. As stated in the EULA:

"(7) By distributing or permitting the distribution of any New Levels, all creators or owners of any trademark, copyright, or other right, title or interest therein grant to LucasArts an irrevocable, perpetual, royalty-free, sublicensable right to distribute or exploit the New Level by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented), and to create and distribute by any means or media (whether now known or hereafter invented) derivative works thereof, and to charge for the distribution of such New Level or such derivative work, with no obligation to account to any creators or owners of the New Level in any manner."

Lucasarts does recognize that modders do own the copyright. But they are saying that they have the right to use the mod as they see fit without permission. It is a small difference, but a difference nonetheless.

It does mean that the author of the mod (or copyright owner more generally) has the right to say who, other than Lucasarts, alters that mod, which is what this thread is all about.

I agree with acdcfanbill that if they really didn't want the mod used they probably shouldn't have released it. But at the same time, I'd like to think that if a modder really doesn't want his work "tampered" with, that people would respect that they have a legal right to support that.

Iam going to laugh my ass off if AOTC trys to sue majinrevan for reskinning the jedi starfighter. Just a personal note, i think the reskinning that he did the starfighter looks and feels better. AOTC is just a bully. Mod or modified means to make something better. if anyone should sue it should be lucas because they took his jedi starfighter. anyway back to my statement. a mod is something to be modified. if aaron smith didnt whant his mod changed he wouldnt have released it. ive seen tons of reskins of many things, why didnt AOTC get on there case? majinrevan only made it better than i dont see an issue as long as he gave credit. so AOTC should sit down and be quiet cause theres nothing they can do. and to quote Tk-8252 "nuff said"

Look deeper. Who's the real bully here?

The person who's making things for a spectacular TC purely out of the goodness of their heart, or the person stealing those people's work and re-releasing it as their own against their requests?

AOTC:TC is not going to sue some random, as he says he is, "n00b modder." This whole issue is about PCGameMods disabling the file.

The issue is: it doesn't matter if he gave credit. The AOTC:TC policy is you DO NOT mod and release their work. Therefore, PCGameMods has done the right thing and is not letting someone re-release AOTC:TC's work.

There's nothing else to discuss... they're not changing their policy.

Let me quote the readme for the gunship:

As you all know, this is exclusive to aotc/tc (see more @ aotctc.com). The AOTC/TC project is a serious project, and I am proud to be working with some of the best talents out there. The staff all strive for perfection, as you will see in these models. This Model is to be not to be modified in anyway.This model is an exclusive to the attack of the clones total conversion for JkII and Jedi Academy( www.aotctc.com) if you downloaded this from any other site it was put there without our permission. Please notify us or any of the listed parties if you found this file anywhere but AOTCTC.COM. Thank you,and enjoy!

What part of this is not understood?

do me a favor, contact mars marshall and ask him to post on the forums. lets hear what he says and not a read me. his views might have changed.