This is really making me angry. Saber defense in Jedi Outcast is much better than in Jedi Academy. This is ridiculous, even when saber defense is set to maximum the saber does not block several shots. Try it for yourself. Open Jedi outcast, set saber defense to max and spawn 10 trandoshans - you WONґT get hit. They will die due to the projectiles you deflected eventually. Try it in Jedi Academy. Instead of 10 trandoshans spawn only 2 imperial officers - YOU WILL GET HIT.
It is starting to vex me greatly.
However, I must agree that to block all shots from 10 trandoshans is something that goes beyond the most skilled jedi. The issue is that even the mindless npc in the game can hit you with ease. I think both JO and JA have a lack of balance in saber defense. JO surpasses the commom sense, having Kyle to block thousands of shots even when running. And JA, even when at max saber defense level, makes Jaden wield the saber as my grandmother would do. It is a matter of balance. It is ridiculous to see a single imperial officer being able to break a dual saber defense with a also ridiculous pistol just because Jaden is running.

I hope the next games to be more realistic indeed or there is a patch coming out soon to even things up. You should agree with me that for a Jedi, it would be kind of lethal to miss the shot instead of blocking it. Think about Star Wars episodes especially Qui-gonn and obi-wan in the first episode blocking all shot from the droids ans destroyers.

That would be realistic.

i think that they were trying to get the boba fett killing that one jedi knight effect. sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly ;)

Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies.

And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots. :rolleyes: But who knows? Raven might fix it in another patch.

No. Patch. You don't seem to get it, Crow.

Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster ;) Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster ;) Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I give you a cookie :)

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster ;) Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

agreed :)

Originally posted by Tinny:
"sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly"

Take a look at episode 1. Qui-gon and Obi-wan are RUNNING and deflecting all shots from all directions. In JA there is a too long delay from one block to the next one.

Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest
"Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies. And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots"

What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about.

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
"Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing."

As I said, in episode 1, Jedi knights can move and deflect shots without any problem. This is good skill, to deflect and to attack, always using the force.[I]

I'd say rely more on attack than deflecting shots. Plus some force powers. I just charge into groups of storm troopers(when i played ja sp). I do see where you're coming from though. They really screwed up the movement speed of saber combat on several levels. I just hope the next time they try to make a jedi game they don't reiterate past mistakes. arg.

I remember JO, hehehe... I used to block the laser turrets fire, and fire it back at them. I loved the blocking in JO, you could just block almost anything, and just place your crosshair on where you want the lasers to fly.

Originally posted by Megadeth
What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about.

Its the same whether you're using dual sabers, staff or single. Just because staff and dual has 2 blades doesnt mean delfecting will be better or faster.

Originally posted by Giddamon
agreed :)

No offence pal, but posts that just say "I agree", "I must agree" or "agreed" alone is spamming. :rolleyes:

I give you a cookie :)

:D Yummy :)

But I reckon I had a point cos not all Jedi Knights were capable of blocking or parrying shot after shot. See EpII where many Jedi Knights are killed? Yeah, case closed Your Honour :)

The lowered saber defense was one of the positive changes I saw from Jedi Outcast - subtle yet effective. I remember being able to take my hands off the keyboard playing JKII at times - just hang out waiting for your enemies to reflect-blast themselves to death!

I like charging in like an arrogant padawan (I just started JA on my Mac after finally being done with BG2 -whew-, my character is kind of like 'Mission' if you get the picture) into a bunch of sand people and barely scraping my way out alive ... it is a bit of a role play - my Jaden is going to spend a lot of her life in the bacta tank ;)

Mike

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
:D Yummy :)

But I reckon I had a point cos not all Jedi Knights were capable of blocking or parrying shot after shot. See EpII where many Jedi Knights are killed? Yeah, case closed Your Honour :) I was giving you a supportive cookie because I was agreeing with you :D

And good to see you back here Mike...

Originally posted by Megadeth
Originally posted by Tinny:
"sure if you saw shots coming in a row you could block them all regardless of the frequency, but when they come out in sporadic rhythms, your saber will be knocked back and you'll be open to the other shots, which i think JA got perfectly"

Take a look at episode 1. Qui-gon and Obi-wan are RUNNING and deflecting all shots from all directions. In JA there is a too long delay from one block to the next one.Granted, they were blocking shots from battledroids, which has been shown as perhaps the most ineffective soldiers ever :) "You will find clones are immensely superior to droids." Thus even stormtroopers are superior to droids...

Personally, I don't seem to have a problem moving and blocking shots. I have to aim properly and move cautiously though.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest
"Raven has made saber defelcting and saber battles more like the movies. And in the movies jedi still get hit and die even while deflecting blaster shots"

What episode? Read the lines above about episode 1. If you are talking about episode 2, remember there is a huge difference between blocking shots from hundreds of droids using one saber and blocking shots from three troopers using dual sabers or a saber staff. That is what I am talking about. How about Coleman Trebor getting blasted by Jango? How about Luke getting shot in the hand in ROTJ? That's not hundreds of opponants. Again, these cases are against superior opponants. What the Jedi do against ineffective droids should not be take as what they can do against everything. Ep. 2 goes very far to show us that Jedi are not omnipotent beings that are unbeatable. Jedi Academy reflects this well.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
"Not that it matters, cos if you get through, shame them all by slaughtering them with a couple of sabers and then locate some health/shields then it's just as good. I suppose it encourages you to keep moving as opposed to standing there waiting for for the assault sentries to lose their battery power and than destroying them with a blaster Needs more skill and means the game is harder, which isn't necessarily a bad thing."

As I said, in episode 1, Jedi knights can move and deflect shots without any problem. This is good skill, to deflect and to attack, always using the force.[I] You can move and deflect shots in Jedi Academy as well. But you must choose properly how you do this, otherwise you will get hit. Also, moving in JA causes some enemies to miss more often, so you don't have to deflect the shot.

Running around wildly is not the key to success :)

Originally posted by Prime
I was giving you a supportive cookie because I was agreeing with you :D

Yay! Nice to know I make sense occasionnally :D

Originally posted by Prime
Running around wildly is not the key to success :) Darn ... next you're going to say that being a blue stance whirlwind isn't a strategy ...

;)


Seriously, in many ways JA is easier than JKII, so I think the lowered defense - making you plan more - is a very, very good thing.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
Darn ... next you're going to say that being a blue stance whirlwind isn't a strategy ...

;)
Certainly not. But keep in mind that I used to play Mortal Combat back in the day and just mashed buttons while thinking I was uber. :)

Originally posted by Prime
Certainly not. But keep in mind that I used to play Mortal Combat back in the day and just mashed buttons while thinking I was uber. :) Reminds me of how I played foosball in college ... and boy did it tick off the '1337 skillz' players who I beat while exemplifying entropy and chaos ...

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
Reminds me of how I played foosball in college ... and boy did it tick off the '1337 skillz' players who I beat while exemplifying entropy and chaos ...

Mike Not to mention finding an actual use for geometry...

We just bought a nice fooseball table. Damn it's fun...

Originally posted by Prime
Not to mention finding an actual use for geometry...

We just bought a nice fooseball table. Damn it's fun... My wife's parents give us money to get gifts for the kids each Christmas, and this year we got a nice '10 in 1' game table. We've all been having a blast between foosball and air hockey ... and come to find out I actually learned to shoot somewhere in there ...

I'm up through the first tier and into the first (brrr) plot missions ... boy I had forgotten just how much I love this game ...

Mike

It seems I wasnґt able to make myself clear.
Again I say, both games present a lack of common sense regarding saber deffense.
I will endorse my opinion with the words of Qui-gon and Obi-wan.

Episode 1: Qui-gon tells to Anakin, just before the pod race begins: "do not think, just follow your instinct, follow the force"
Episode 4: Obi-wan tells Luke, inside the Millenium Falcon, while he is training with a robot (sentry): "do not think, feel the force through you"

The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jediґs will.
Imagine if you put your hand into the fire. What would be your mindґs reaction to it? To put away your hands out of there, right? Automatic, instinct. You donґt think about it, it just happens.
Taking these statements to JK environment: the player should not aim to the area/npc where the shots are coming from in order to have force deffense to work properly. It should be an automatic feature and should provide better protection. No matter where the shots are coming from, they should be blocked or at least the great majority of them.

Keep in mind it is not me whoґs saying it: itґs Qui-gon and Obi-wan.
Iґm afraid it wouldnґt be wise to argue with them.

And someone said about skill, right? I think saber deffense (when you are not attacking) should work without any skill requirement. In another hand, to attack an opponent without being hit by his shots takes great skill. You must predict, calculate, foresee the enemy movement in order to attack without being hit.

Another good point is that there is no (or there should not be) such thing as stronger non-force user opponents. A stormtrooper do not has the power of the force, so it is quite strange to justify his shots from breaking saber deffense. A Jedi can naturally "foresee" (even without being aware of that) the shots before they hit him, so a non-force user npc should be weaker than a Jedi, especially a rank 3 Jedi knight.

By the way, thanks to all for participating in my first thread.
I really like to know other playerґs opinions.

The fact is, hit detection in JA is different than JK2.

It was made to be "more realistic."

Sure, this can have bad side effects for example with lag in MP it can appear as if you hit somebody and you didn't or you missed them and they really were hit, etc.

The point is to force you to have better aim. If you hit somebody in the head they should die unless it's some special circumstance (say, level 3 rage/protection + full shields and health), if you hit them in the arm or leg it should do barely any damage.

Single player doesn't suffer from lag, but the hit detection system isn't foolproof and glitches do occur.

About all I can suggest is play around with some of the cvars and see if you can "tweak" it to your liking. Try the "not enough customization" threads and RazorAce's comments in the OJP project forum for some pointers.

Originally posted by Megadeth
The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jediґs will. See - I think that is only partly true. What the Jedi have is an heightened sense of attunement to what is going on around them. There was a great scene from one of the JediApprentice books (the first I think) where Obi and QuiGon were walking and as soon as they entered an area QuiGon told Obi to close his eyes and describe the area. When he misses some details, Qui Gon chides him - and later on he doesn't make the same mistake. So it *is* skill dependant, and given that each Jedi has an inherent skill set and depth of attunement, it should be variable.

In the game, I think you should need to be facing your opponent - or at least have your saber swing around behind you to block. An advanced system might actually give an 'active' defense - when your senses are attuned enough, you automatically swing around to block back the shot accurately. But you could be sure that many people here would complain about having the game moving them around.

Personally I just like that the defense *does* improve as the game progresses, but never makes you invulnerable. At least it isn't like in Jedi Knight - where at the end of the game, the Jedi could face a single Imperial officer with a blaster pistol and expect to die if depending on defense alone.

Mike

Originally posted by Megadeth
It seems I wasnґt able to make myself clear.
Again I say, both games present a lack of common sense regarding saber deffense. I disagree completely.

Originally posted by Megadeth
I will endorse my opinion with the words of Qui-gon and Obi-wan. Episode 1: Qui-gon tells to Anakin, just before the pod race begins: "do not think, just follow your instinct, follow the force"
Episode 4: Obi-wan tells Luke, inside the Millenium Falcon, while he is training with a robot (sentry): "do not think, feel the force through you" But Obi-Wan also responded to Luke's question about whether the Force controls your actions with, "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." So the Force is not something that completely takes over control of your body. It more or less fine tunes and enhances the actions you are trying to perform. The Jedi has to contiously make the effort to deflect blaster shots, but the Force controls his actions enough to be able to actually do that. What you are suggesting is that a Jedi could be thinking about having a nice picnic in a sunny meadow while sipping a cup of tea, and at the same time deflecting shots from stormtroopers. This is not the case.

And Qui-Gon is mearly saying follow your instincts and not overthink things. This is like altheletes. Overthinking leads to poor performances. Letting your training and instincts take over is ideal. But training and instincts still require the player to make a contious effort to perform the task at hand, for example hitting a shot or catching a pass. This does not mean that your mind can be elsewhere.

Originally posted by Megadeth
The question is, force deffense (or saber deffense) is somewhat automatic. It is pretty much completely automatic. If you are facing the opponant you don't have to do a thing.

Originally posted by Megadeth
There is no need to think or no skill requirement. It is a native power that acts despite the Jediґs will. I disagree, based on what is seen in the movies. Obi-wan specifically states that the Force only partially controls your actions, and also obeys your commands. It does not control the Jedi's will. And there is a skill requirement. It has been stated (in some of the SW books I think, if not elsewhere), that there are 7 styles of lightsaber combat. I forget which one, but there is one form that is known as the "diplomats form". This form is less combat oriented than the others, and requires less skill to use. It is also stated that every Jedi who used that form and fought at Geonosis died. So there is some skill involved.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Imagine if you put your hand into the fire. What would be your mindґs reaction to it? To put away your hands out of there, right? Automatic, instinct. You donґt think about it, it just happens. Your mind may tell you to do that, but your body still has to be physically able to perform the required action. What if you are unable to pull your hand out for some reason, such as something stronger than you was holding it in there? Then your mind can say whatever it wants, but your body connot comply. This is the same with deflecting shots. The Jedi can have the his mind wanting to deflect a shot, and the Force trying to get him where his blade needs to be, but if his body (force enhanced or otherwise) is unable to get the blade to that position (not enough time or whatever) then he will get hit.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Taking these statements to JK environment: the player should not aim to the area/npc where the shots are coming from in order to have force deffense to work properly. It should be an automatic feature and should provide better protection. No matter where the shots are coming from, they should be blocked or at least the great majority of them. Frankly, it provides great protection as it is. To me, having the player face the direction the shots are coming from represents the mind giving the Force commands, and the autodeflection as the Force controlling your actions. I think that system works quite well. Besides, Luke gets hit in ROTJ when he is not facing his opponent. Jedi are no omnipotent. They have limits, which is why so many jedi died at Geonosis.

Regardless, we must remember than movies and video games are very different mediums. Not everything that works in one works well in the other. Gameplay must also be considered (and really take precidence). Being able to block everything without taking any input from the player is a pretty poor gameplay choice. No input from the player usually means no fun. There is so sense of accomplishment, since a monkey could run around and do just as well. Personally, I think Raven has struck a good balance.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Keep in mind it is not me whoґs saying it: itґs Qui-gon and Obi-wan.
Iґm afraid it wouldnґt be wise to argue with them. But you are only listening to parts of what they say, and disregarding the rest that disagree with your opinion.

Originally posted by Megadeth
And someone said about skill, right? I think saber deffense (when you are not attacking) should work without any skill requirement. In another hand, to attack an opponent without being hit by his shots takes great skill. You must predict, calculate, foresee the enemy movement in order to attack without being hit. Under your system, attacking would take no skill either since I could just stand there and deflect every shot back at my enemies, and eventually killing them. All the while, I could go get a coffee and watch some TV, since it wouldn't require any input from the player. Wow, fun game.

Originally posted by Megadeth
Another good point is that there is no (or there should not be) such thing as stronger non-force user opponents. A stormtrooper do not has the power of the force, so it is quite strange to justify his shots from breaking saber deffense. And yet Jango does it, and some nobody on Jabba's sail barge does it, and a boatload of battledroids do it. So why can't JA reflect the movies and have the same thing? And as for stormtroopers fighting Jedi, we don't know how many shots they would get through, since IIRC we have never seen this confrontation in the movies.

Originally posted by Megadeth
A Jedi can naturally "foresee" (even without being aware of that) the shots before they hit him, so a non-force user npc should be weaker than a Jedi, especially a rank 3 Jedi knight. But they are aware of it. Otherwise the Force has no commands to obey. And a non-Force user is a lot weaker than a Jedi in JA, in almost every sense. The Jedi can still deflect 99% of the shots coming his way if he has the skill.

To me, this is a good representation of the movies and at the same time making the game fun.

Originally posted by Prime
The Jedi can still deflect 99% of the shots coming his way if he has the skill.

To me, this is a good representation of the movies and at the same time making the game fun. I mean think about it - look at the stats screen in JKII once in a while - you have killed something like 75 enemies, including some force users, defected 1200 blasts, and are at 100 health / 80 shield. Not a bad day's work, really ...

Mike

Yup, time to kick back and enjoy an evening in front of a holovid, supping something Corellian. :D

maybe they dont want it to be too easy? just a thought. lol

I think its fine as it is, expect obivius thing 1 npc can kill ya if ya just try keep blocking his shots.

Originally posted by Destroyder121
I think its fine as it is, expect obivius thing 1 npc can kill ya if ya just try keep blocking his shots. But they will likely be dead long before you since you send their shots right back at them...

Originally posted by Prime
But they will likely be dead long before you since you send their shots right back at them... Well ... if they are firing something that is more than a simple energy blast or small projectile - something with elemental effects or splash damage - then you will rightly be damaged. If you choose to stand there taking hits from something like that you deserve to die ... kinda like the guy Jolee talks about in one of his stories ...

Mike

nah i spawned a stormtrooper and moved 10 feet away kept saber on, gone afk for a while when i returned stormy was still alive and i was dead...

There's two schools of thought on the blocking issue (maybe three actually).

One school says that auto blocking sucks and that "true skill" is in having a manual "block button" that you have to hold down or tap at the exact second that a strike occurs and this is the way the game should be.

Another says that there should be some kind of "instant saber lock" system that makes saber battles more like the movies (some mods exist already implementing various applications of this idea). The combat slows down but it gives a totally different feel that some people prefer.

Finally there's the school that just wants sabers to block less or block more (ie: tweak the existing system).



The trouble is that while people want manual blocking there's the issue of lag. More functions that are dependent on lag won't necessarily improve the game if there is more for you to worry about that won't always work. Plus why couldn't a person just hold down the block button all the time and it would be the same as it was before. You'd just be forcing people to hold down a key while you play (unless you want to make it so you have a "block meter" or something but then you'll have people complain that this is unrealistic).

You might just end up having people tape the button down or create a "blocking script" and you're back to square one.

Despite what people say about auto blocking "blocking everything" I have no trouble killing people saber to saber or guns to saber, or vice versa. You just have to know where to shoot, where to strike, lead, when to hit, etc.

As usual the idea of "(movie) realism" isn't always as feasible as people would like or imagine when it comes to online gaming. Not only do you have to balance everything, but you have to take the lag factor into account. Some things just aren't going to work very well like that, so you may have to "dumb it down" and make compromises so it's still a fun game to play and not an excercise in frustration.

So "true realistic saber battles and force powers" I predict just won't work in a multiplayer environment (not what people are asking), not for a long time anyway.

JA is still an action shooter, it isn't a role playing Jedi simulator. Maybe we wish it was, but ultimately it's not, and it doesn't need to be to be fun. So while it's nice to compare the games to the movies, it's just not going to be the same thing and it's usually unrealistic to expect it to be (online anyway).

As far as I'm concerned the current system is FINE. Ideally we'd all be playing on lag free LANs with good systems so every strike that landed would be a kill, but that's not going to ever happen, for now this seems like a good enough compromise for me.

But you mod makers out there feel free to disagree and keep up the fight to create a system that works for you, and if people use it, more power to 'em. ; )

Originally posted by Destroyder121
nah i spawned a stormtrooper and moved 10 feet away kept saber on, gone afk for a while when i returned stormy was still alive and i was dead... Boy, you must suck...



j/k

Originally posted by txa1265
Well ... if they are firing something that is more than a simple energy blast or small projectile - something with elemental effects or splash damage - then you will rightly be damaged. If you choose to stand there taking hits from something like that you deserve to die ... kinda like the guy Jolee talks about in one of his stories ... But even then you can force push the majority of that stuff anyway.

you can push bullets/lasers, etc. away?

can u push the missles away? :D

Darth Bane: Yup, missiles can be pushed back at your aggressor. The same thing applies to those annoying concussion rifle shots, but ya gotta be quick.

Megadeth: I get the feeling you're one of these people who run around on the red fighting style all the time. One of the differences between JO and JA is that your stance will affect your ability to deflect incoming blasts. Red is an aggressive stance meant primarily for saber combat - the saber is held high above the head. Blue is a defensive stance with higher movement speed, and the saber held low and across the body, providing greater coverage, and greater ability to deflect multiple shots.
This is unlike Jedi Outcast, when the fighting stance didn't make a difference to your ability to deflect shots.

Originally posted by PhobicDagger
This is unlike Jedi Outcast, when the fighting stance didn't make a difference to your ability to deflect shots. And, again, I see this as a good thing.

Mike

Originally posted by Darth-Bane
you can push bullets/lasers, etc. away? Not lasers, but you can push bullets, like from the repeater. You can also push the repeater and grenade launcher secondary fire.

Originally posted by Darth-Bane
can u push the missles away? :D Yep.

Originally posted by Darth-Bane
can u push the missles away? :D Imagine surviving that one section in JKII without it ... :eek:

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
Imagine surviving that one section in JKII without it ... :eek: That's for sure...

I can think of a coupla sections where that might apply...

As far as I know, everything except sniper rifle and EMP can be pushed.

Whether it's actually a good strategy is another question entirely though. I've seen a lot of people use pushing and pushing alone as a defense against guns, where it's flawed at best.

Originally posted by PhobicDagger
I can think of a coupla sections where that might apply... True ... but there is one particular section where you*will* die many many times without the ability to push rockets ... and even then you need to prepare for a reload or two ...

As I'm playing through JA again on my Mac (I'm also replaying NWN and playing Dungeon Siege that I grabbed for $5 from Best Buy, so my progress is slow) I am struck by the organic progression of your core powers and how well they match your opponents - not making you invincible, but giving you a considerable advantage. I just finished Vjun, and the Flechette wielders can cut through you (as they should) but everyone else just kills themself by reflection. The saber battles are a good challenge as well at that point.

I just feel that they did a great job of re-balancing the saber defense to make it more appropriate for a Jedi learner.

Mike

Rocket stormtroopers were ther one thing that bugged me first time playing through the last stages of JO though.
There I was, happily prancing about, hacking a trooper here, slashing a reborn there, then *BOOM!*
Oh, well...reload...and keep push handy this time...

Originally posted by PhobicDagger
There I was, happily prancing about... I think that is your problem right there :)

*was* my problem. The second time around they didn't know what hit 'em. :dev7: Push! Grip! mwaahaahaaa!

They say the definition of a hard boss or level is one that gives you problems the *second* time through.

There are two ways to do that:
- Cheater AI - the most common, as in MoHAA's 'Sniper Alley'. It will always be hard - but much less so because you know where to shoot.
- Good design - like that section of Cairn Reactor. The troopers had reason to be there, had reason to see you before you saw them, and their weaponry is not unreasonable.

Mike

Well the secondary Concussion rifle can't be pushed or blocked (if we're talking MP here) in addition to the secondary DEMP2 and Disruptor (in SP you can't block or dodge it except randomly, in MP you can block both and dodge secondary with level 3 seeing).

You can actually push back all "blaster" type shots and even primary Concussion shots, but it takes great aim and it's ultimately pointless because they can keep firing far faster than you can push away all the individual "bullets."

Enemies can "push" your Det Packs and Trip Mines away, but only in SP.