I just came across this article (http://www.gamespy.com/top10/april03/progaming/index.shtml) on GameSpy about one guy's view of professional gamers. It is a pretty funny read, IMO. I don't know any proffessional gamers personally, so I don't know how accurate the view really is. But a show I saw a little while ago (must have been the MTV one mentioned in the article) on this seemed to present the same view, without even trying. Anyway, a couple of parts struck me as funny as they seemed to relate to some posts I've seen at Lucasforums (and probably some I've made myself) from time to time, and some of the issues ring true with JA/JO. Anyway, here are some of the "highlights" of the article, but read it yourself and come to your own conclusions:

6. Pro Gamers Have No Personality
These are not athletes. No offense to all you pro gamers out there, but the vast majority of you aren?t particularly interesting.

Part of the reason real professional sports are so popular is that there?s a lot of compelling personalities participating in them. I hate Mike Tyson and don?t even like professional boxing very much, but I usually find it pretty amusing to watch him go nutzoid. He?s a character, albeit a poorly developed one.

Pro gamers are usually pasty people with strong wrists who spend a lot of time indoors. Yes, there are numerous exceptions, I?m sure, but the sad truth is I can only name a small handful of so-called "professional" gamers off the top of my head, and I have no idea what any of them look like or why they?re remotely interesting beyond their ability to play games more compulsively than most people. Is that really something to brag about? After all, they don't call alcoholics "professional drinkers" now, do they?

The only time you see any interest in professional gamers is (sadly) when they just so happen to be female. This results in a thread of Internet forum posts containing such charming missives as, "OMG PIX PLZ" and "HAY SEXXXY A/S/L ??? U CAN EAT MY ROCKET NE DAY BABY LMAO!!!!!!"

Sorry guys. And if makes you feel any better, us so-called "gaming journalists" are an even more miserable lot.


5. There?s No Mainstream Appeal
Besides, professional gaming leagues just look plain childish to the outside, uneducated observer. Who in their right mind is going to be intrigued by the likes of "-=[dAffY]=-d00k!" or "ClAn gH3tT0 bR0z?" You can't even say the names of the majority of the players without damaging your larynx.


4. Rules are Inconsistent
One thing all sports have in common is consistent rules. Sure, there are plenty of small variations and only professionals adhere to all the "official" rules, but the basics are always the same.

Not so with modern professional gaming.

Acceptable maps, time limits, team size, kill total, how many rounds you play ... everything, it?s all over the place. There?s no such thing as uniformed scoring, no official rulebook, and there's very little consistency.

This is partly because the games are constantly changing, and partially due to the fact that most games aren't really designed to be played under competitive tournament conditions. Even when modifications are made to facilitate professional play, there's no governing body or even a vague universally accepted set of guidelines for each game which are largely adhered to.

It's almost like playing Calvinball. (http://www.alloftheabove.net/cahr/calvinball/rules_of_calvinball.htm)

Number 2 in particular rings true, and certainly not just for professional players:

2. The Pro Community is Too Serious
I?m sure this is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bushel or whatever, but the stereotype against the pro gaming community is that they're an insane, elitist, arrogant bunch of juvenile dorkwads.

To some extent, that stereotype holds true. Browse any so-called pro gamer forums and you'll find thousands of derogatory insults hurled towards "n00bs," people either new to the game or folks simply unable to dedicate a significant portion of their life towards developing "teh mad skillz."

Pro gamers seem to take the game the most seriously and often have the nerve to make demands of game developers. The changing of the rate of fire on an imaginary weapon is often with met with epic rants, furious whining, and outright threats, as if the entire situation is a grave matter of life or death.

Does this last part sound like JA?

[/i]All this only serves to make the professional gaming community look bad, cause developers to invest less effort into supporting them, and scare away new, interested players. [/i]

And finally...

1. Games Are Supposed to Be Fun!
Video games are -- above all else -- supposed to be fun. Entertaining. Enjoyable.

Once you start taking it seriously, once you start practicing tens of hours a day to get up to competitive strength, once you start posting emotional speeches speaking out against the strength of a fictional weapon being changed from thirty to twenty-five, well, where's the fun in that? Gaming becomes more like a really bad job.

Games should be about having a good time, amusing yourself, and trash talking with your friends. It shouldn't be about your perceived level of toughness in an imaginary virtual realm, how great you are at hogging armor, how "my clan can beat up your clan," or how many hours you can play Defender.

Playing video games is not a sport, and it's not a way to become famous, rich, or socially well-adjusted.

Discuss :)

The comment re: slagging off of n00bs seems quite true, sadly and while much of what he says is true, it's not funny that it's true but sad. Gaming should be about having fun and not elitism (although of course, everyone wants to do well). Though I don't think a set of rules are needed to which everyone must obsessively stick to, because varying maps, models etc are what make a mod-able game like JA open to everyone to contribute, which I reckon is a good thing.

Be nice to n00bs, they are learning and if you scare them away you might hurt someone badly. Encourage more people to play, and play fair. That way everyone can enjoy their time playing.

Professionally or otherwise :p

I would comment on the article point by point but i wont, since i could barely read it once.

just a few things tho:
1. you don't watch the person playing. you watch the action of the game.
2. some are "eliteist snobs" but the vast majority are not.
3. this person obviously has no clue about pro gaming.
4. its eSports, not sports. the e denotes computer or something related to the internet.
5. football and all the others are still "just games" if you strip away the money.
6. eSports are more about awareness, reflexes, and strategy than physical exertion. since when is curling a "physically demanding sport"?

Some points I agree, some points I disagree...

Point 6 - I don't know whether this is true overall, but unfortunately I can easiely believe it is true. However, taking what I see - for example - on these forums, I think I see a pretty even balance between the a**hole / nerdy 'pro-gamer', and the perfectly nice /well-adjusted 'pro-gamer'.
...the a**hole pro-gamer is, however, probably more vocal and therefore noticed more...
Of course it's very hard to make proper judgements on this kind of stuff going JUST on forum posts...

Point 5 - Probably true now, but I don't think you can hold that against people who want to be a pro-gamer. Their not nessesarily into it to try and be famous - and I don't think it has a direct bearing on whether the activity is worthwhile or not.
There are all kinds of 'underground' or 'cult' communities you can reference in this regard...

The a**hole gamer who expects us to give special respect to any opinion or statement he makes - however - is most entertaining! heh

And it should be fairly obvious that not all sports have physical prowress as their central attribute. I'm not saying that computer gaming should be considered a sport, but I think it's possible for it to be - but that's a long discussion right there.
One things for sure - I don't think physical abilites have anything to do with it...


Point 4 - This IS a problem, and one which I have constantly talked about with various people. Many people can't see a reason why having a whole s**t-load of server options for a game can possibly be a problem. How can configurability be bad...?
...Point 4 gives you a reason - very clearly...

Point 3 ... err ... where did point 3 go?! ;)

Point 2 - I totally agree - and this is where Point 5 actually is quite relavent. A common SW phrase 'Delusions of grandeur' comes to mind... :D
...and routinely slagging off n00bs is - IMO - the kind of activity which helps to perpetuate the idea that computer gaming is only for kiddies and loners...

Point 1 - Sports are 'suppost' to be fun too - but some people's fun comes from playing competitively. You can't tell other people how they derive fun from a certain activity, that's up to them...

Originally posted by Rumor
3. this person obviously has no clue about pro Why is that? But true, he did say he was an outside observer.

Originally posted by Rumor
since when is curling a "physically demanding sport"? Well, at least you have to get out of your chair :)

10. If I remember correctly, chess was considered a sport. Also, why not have different kinds of sports for different people? (i.e. video games for not so physically able people)

9. Why look at the players? Look at the action!

8. Earlier, basketball used to change at times.

7. How about if in other sports, some people are tired? Or if they get distracted? Also, a skill in gaming is to be able to adapt in a different environment.

6. There are pro gamers who are normal people, they just aren't so vocal about it.

5. Same way not everyone likes to watch some other sport.

4. Well, in golf, they play on different courses, yet no one complains. As for some other rules, pro gaming is "young."

3. I don't find anything wrong with having alot of leagues.

2. Lots of people who play other sports professionally get very serious about it.

1. Other sports are for fun as well, yet they have professional competitions.

Hehe.. here's 'professinal gaming' for ya...

Clicky (http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=1170)

Originally posted by Prime

Well, at least you have to get out of your chair :)

I get more exercise lugging my computer down the stairs than any curler gets from "sweeping"

Originally posted by Sam Fisher
Hehe.. here's 'professinal gaming' for ya...

Clicky (http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=1170)

thats hardly pro gaming.

nothing in jk3 could be considered pro gaming on any level.

I like that demo, it's just a preview? whens the final commin out? (if there is one)

www.schroet.de)

Now those ppl are pro gamers, they get paid for what they're doing by their sponsors
(note: i dont play cs, or ever will or ever had..i just know a bit about these guys)

I didn't care to read the article, I just bought a bull**** detector and it went off. reason: generalising everything

Originally posted by Rumor
I get more exercise lugging my computer down the stairs than any curler gets from "sweeping"
I have to doubt that. :)

"Pro gamers are usually pasty people with strong wrists who spend a lot of time indoors."
:lol:

Amusing article. I don't think I could take "proffesional gaming" seriously.
:)

I think some of the points in the article are quite close to reality, yet nothing prevents "normal" gamers to stay at large from servers filled with PRO gamers :)

The term is often abused. "Professional" implies a career-relationship (ie: you get paid to do whatever it is).

The phrase "like a pro" is a compliment applied to something, saying "he does it as if he was a pro(fessonal)."

So a "pro" gamer is a really good gamer.

But there are gamers who actually get paid to play. They're called testers (not all testers get paid of course), such as for QA.

Then there's people who win cash prizes and cars and new computers and such in tournaments and other game-show like arenas for gaming.

Of course you can be good and not be a true "professional."

There is definately a divide between "competative" and "wanna be players" (ie: sore losers who think they're good but are only mediocre) and between people who just "mess around" (the role players, script kiddies, people with genuine mental & physical handicaps, etc).

What is wrong with trying to be good at a game? Nothing.

There are parallels with professional sports too as mentioned. Of course we all can't be Michael Jordon. The fact is some people are born with natural talents based on physical prowess. Some people have better eye sight, bigger muscles, etc. Training, diet, drugs, etc can change some of those things, but ultimately some people have a much bigger advantage than others.

And if you're in poor health or old you can't perform the same way as somebody with the right age and body type for the sport.

Games generally leave aside physical attributes in favor of fast reflexes, problem solving skills and mental alertness.

Of course there are still plenty of inequalities related to the power of the pc's and OS's people have, whether they keep their systems finely tuned and the quality and speed of their ISP. So there will always be some with an advantage over others that may be completely unmerited on their part.

It isn't all just love, patience and determination, those with more money and freetime have the advantage.

I'm rambling now but it's interesting to think about.

All kidding aside of course. ; )

The point is to have fun, but if you can make some cash on the side with it too, why not? More power to you.

Well yeah there are pretty much whiners all over the place. Still, I do pity the nerds that bother getting professional with PC games. I mean, get a life. I don't care if you (not referring to anyone particular) are in the top-5 of some "esports league xmod ladder twl" whatever it's called. No one gets respect from me from something like that.

Originally posted by Master William
Well yeah there are pretty much whiners all over the place. Still, I do pity the nerds that bother getting professional with PC games. I mean, get a life. I don't care if you (not referring to anyone particular) are in the top-5 of some "esports league xmod ladder twl" whatever it's called. No one gets respect from me from something like that.

ProGamers are doing exactly what NFL/NBA/MBL/NHL/whatever players are doing: What they love to do and get paid to do it. 99.99% of them do not do it for "respect." its done for 1. love of the game 2. love of playing 3. of course, money. They play 8 hours a day like other people go and work in their grey cube for 8 hours a day, but they actually like what they do. There is nothing wrong with that.

Also, Kurgan. Proffessional Gamers DO game for a living. They are pros just like a player in the NFL is a pro. I'm talking Fatal1ty, 3D, SK, AMD64, etc. These gamers have actual contracts with companies (like Intel, Blizzard Entertainment, AMD, nVidia, etc.) and have their handle, team name, etc. copywrighted.

Sure, there are people who are on the level of some pro gamers (in team games its more team skill than individual) yet are not paid, etc. They are not ProGamers.

I know ppl who work for THQ and EA here in Oz who perform various tasks, including testing...so I dont know if that counts as a pro gamer, more on the developer side of things I guess...

How starange to think that there are ppl to who *get paid* to sit n play games. ...then again it cant be too suprising, seeing there are ppl who get paid to ****

Personally I find gaming a good escape from the stresses of life, and would absolutley hate doing it as a job...... In addition I dont think it is much of a valuable contribution to society, twiddling your thumbs on a gamepad for a living..... :p

MTFBWYA

Also, Kurgan. Proffessional Gamers DO game for a living. They are pros just like a player in the NFL is a pro. I'm talking Fatal1ty, 3D, SK, AMD64, etc. These gamers have actual contracts with companies (like Intel, Blizzard Entertainment, AMD, nVidia, etc.) and have their handle, team name, etc. copywrighted.

Sure, there are people who are on the level of some pro gamers (in team games its more team skill than individual) yet are not paid, etc. They are not ProGamers.

I'm not denying that they are genuinely good and recieve real money for their trouble, no not at all.

Rather I was saying how in common parlance the term "pro" is used often simply to refer to people who are good, and not (as it should be) for those who game for a living.

Things like testing and promotion fit into that category as well I'd say. After all, the professional gamer doesn't have to be the best player in the entire world, rather he just has to make money off of playing games.

Should this also include people who work for game magazines? I'm not sure but I'm inclined to say yes, though obviously they may not be competative at all, and certainly not on the level as people like you mentioned.

It isn't all just love, patience and determination, those with more money and freetime have the advantage

Well, exactly... focus on the game and the action. Either ignore or avoid those that annoy you and enjoy :)

Originally posted by Kurgan
I'm not denying that they are genuinely good and recieve real money for their trouble, no not at all.

Rather I was saying how in common parlance the term "pro" is used often simply to refer to people who are good, and not (as it should be) for those who game for a living.

Things like testing and promotion fit into that category as well I'd say. After all, the professional gamer doesn't have to be the best player in the entire world, rather he just has to make money off of playing games.

Should this also include people who work for game magazines? I'm not sure but I'm inclined to say yes, though obviously they may not be competative at all, and certainly not on the level as people like you mentioned.

No, people who test out games and are paid to do it are not proffessional gamers. they are testers. Pro Gamers are not only good at the games they play (be it as a team or individual) but they are PAID because of it. just like NASCAR has sponsors, these gamers have them as well. Gamer Mag staff people who review games are not Pro Gamers. They are editors. I'm not sure why you aren't seeing the distinction but i don't know how much clearer it can be made.

Well they are the same because they get paid to play video games, something the vast majority of gamers don't get to do.

You're saying "professional" implies they get paid for superior skill.

So I understand your distinction. So to be "professional" in your understanding, somebody has to be 1) paid to play 2) highly skilled (the reason for their pay).


There are also gamers who get paid to play but may or may not have any competative skill at all (testers certainly have to play the game a lot, but they may have access to cheats and other things to help them find bugs; reviewers likewise may just rush through the SP game with cheats to get an overview for their article since they don't have time to master every single game they cover).

Testers are there to find flaws in the game and give feedback. they are not there to compete. Pro Gamers are paid to compete.

Originally posted by Rumor
Testers are there to find flaws in the game and give feedback. they are not there to compete. Pro Gamers are paid to compete.

Not trying to start an argument or anything, but I would say that that depends...some games like the Battlefield games or Star Wars Battlefront would have to be thoroughly played by the developers/testers in order to properly balance the gameplay.

In fact, as an example: back when John Romero was still with id, and they were making Doom, he was without a doubt the best Doom player (and continued to be when it was released, too)...he got this skill from testing the game (and probably a bit because he did a good portion of the game design), not because he was competing in commercial tournaments.

You see, testing is still gaming, even if the game isn't being played in some tournament, or something...

i used 2 b a progamer at jk2

Originally posted by Gabrobot
Not trying to start an argument or anything, but I would say that that depends...some games like the Battlefield games or Star Wars Battlefront would have to be thoroughly played by the developers/testers in order to properly balance the gameplay.

In fact, as an example: back when John Romero was still with id, and they were making Doom, he was without a doubt the best Doom player (and continued to be when it was released, too)...he got this skill from testing the game (and probably a bit because he did a good portion of the game design), not because he was competing in commercial tournaments.

You see, testing is still gaming, even if the game isn't being played in some tournament, or something...

still doesn't make him a pro gamer. they are paid because they are good and they are paid to compete.

Originally posted by Rumor
still doesn't make him a pro gamer. they are paid because they are good and they are paid to compete.

Ah, but all I can figure out from the title 'pro gamer' is that it is someone who is paid for being a gamer, or in other words, for playing games. I don't see why it should only be those who compete in tournaments, since there is no indication in the title that it is only gamers who compete in tournaments. Since there's no official dictionary entry for 'pro gamer', I'd have to come to the conclusion that the only real definition of a 'pro gamer' is the one you get by looking at what the words mean...someone who plays games for a living.

So I guess it ultimately comes down to personal opinion as to what some may consider a 'pro gamer'...

well for gaming the term is different than it is for other things. its just how it is lol. there are gamers who are paid to play games, but they are there to find flaws/give suggestions, etc. then there are the pro gamers who are paid to play (as well as their plane tickets, etc are paid for) because of their individual/team skills. i know its confusing but for games thats how it is, unlike most other things.

Fair enough!

Male seahorses are essentially the maternal figure in the seahorse family system. Where's the child support? Canada should take notice.

sPspld

Same place as the comptetitive community's support in developers like Infinity Ward.

Oh come on....dont tell me you were serious about the esports stuf lol, computer games are just hobbies. And thats what Ja is for me, another hobbie =)

Originally posted by Rumor
Same place as the comptetitive community's support in developers like Infinity Ward.

why doesn't bayer produce an alcohol pill for fast headache relief?

Originally posted by AxVegetA
Oh come on....dont tell me you were serious about the esports stuf lol, computer games are just hobbies. And thats what Ja is for me, another hobbie =)

Eggs-actly :rolleyes: :D

Originally posted by dFiend
Male seahorses are essentially the maternal figure in the seahorse family system. Where's the child support? Covered under medicare and paid for by taxes.

Originally posted by dFiend
Canada should take notice. Oh, we have.

Originally posted by AxVegetA
Oh come on....dont tell me you were serious about the esports stuf lol, computer games are just hobbies. And thats what Ja is for me, another hobbie =)

good for you.

Pro gamers = Nerd gamers with no life.

No, just joking. Actually, I see pro gamers as people with a lot of time on their hands. As long as they don't actually think it's something to brag with, I accept them.

Originally posted by Master William
Pro gamers = Nerd gamers with no life.

No, just joking. Actually, I see pro gamers as people with a lot of time on their hands. As long as they don't actually think it's something to brag with, I accept them.

then by the same token, any professional sport would not be something to "brag with."

You compare REAL ACTUAL sport activites with a game where all you do is sit and press buttons?

Yes. Really! Actually!

Originally posted by _PerfectAgent_
Yes. Really! Actually!

!

And, yes Masterblaster, I'm comparing an ACTUALLS SPORTZ to the very real and very prominent increase in the professional online community. Whether you like it or not, the world will be engulfed with the South Korean gaming craze.. Remember the horde of african killer bees?.. exactly.

Pro Gamers do not have a "ton of time" on their hands like you think. Instead of going out and working at a fast food restaurant they are paid a lot of money to game for 8 hours a day. And i do not mean the causual **** you guys do, i mean hard practice.

As for "real sports" they are only so much physical, the rest is totally mental. Thing about pro gaming its 99% mental planning/strategy/awareness (far beyond what any traditional athelete needs/uses) and 50% eye-hand coordination and reflexes which are far beyond what any traditional athelete posesses. Think of it this way, when someone is doing a 1v1 or TDM or CTF on a map bigger than ctf_ns_streets yet can nail a person on the other side of the map with not only the railgun but the rl among others, they are exhibiting extreme eye-hand coordination, awareness, and reflexes. do you realize how hard it is to hit a spot on your screen 2x the size of one of these periods (---> . <---) while strafejumping (and they are moving very fast as well)? I mean you guys have no ****ing clue as to how far beyond your wildest dreams these guys are. Hell the smallest fastmoving object i can consistently hit is about the size of the o in the parenthesis ---> ( o ). I'm nowhere near the level that these guys are, yet i am constantly told to turn off my hacks (people think i aimbot/wallhack for some reason).

Yeah, well athletes have to have incredible aim with out the steady physical arms the game automatically gives you (only in the game...the players arms holding the gun), they have to actually throw a ball instead of pressing a button (or pulling a trigger for that matter), and they have to actually do the jumping and running. :D

Sorry...just had to say that... :p
Although quite frankly, you haven't changed my opinion of pro gamers one bit...not that you'd care of course...or do you? *Waits to see if reply comes* :D

yes

Originally posted by Gabrobot
Yeah, well athletes have to have incredible aim with out the steady physical arms the game automatically gives you (only in the game...the players arms holding the gun), they have to actually throw a ball instead of pressing a button (or pulling a trigger for that matter), and they have to actually do the jumping and running. :D

Sorry...just had to say that... :p
Although quite frankly, you haven't changed my opinion of pro gamers one bit...not that you'd care of course...or do you? *Waits to see if reply comes* :D

No, i don't really care about your opinion, heh. Thing is anyone that doesn't really understand the beast will think its stupid or whatever.

Do i hope to be a pro gamer one day? **** yeah that would be the best job in the world. Do i think it will happen? Probably not, i have other things to do in my life, and it isn't really in my plans.

Do i play sports? Hell yes i do. Football, soccer, baseball, basketball, street hockey, racquetball (when i get a chance).

Do i get out much? Yes. I go hunting/hiking/camping all the time. 15 mile hikes are the best. I can usually run the whole way with a 70+ lb pack.

Do i game a lot? Yes. I game whenever i'm not doing something else.

As you can see just becuase someone plays games a lot doesn't mean they have no life.

There are "pro curlers", "pro bowlers", "pro pool players", and "pro dart players". All are sports, and frankly I hold all four lower on the pillar of "sportdom" than I do "pro gamers". So the excuse that "all they do is sit and point and click" is freaking ridiculous. And comes from someone who's probably never competed in a REAL clan match or ladder or league for gaming.

Originally posted by vS:Mr.Joshua
There are "pro curlers", "pro bowlers", "pro pool players", and "pro dart players". All are sports, and frankly I hold all four lower on the pillar of "sportdom" than I do "pro gamers". So the excuse that "all they do is sit and point and click" is freaking ridiculous. And comes from someone who's probably never competed in a REAL clan match or ladder or league for gaming.

Don't forget pro raquetballers.

I have to agree with Mr. Osmer on that point. I've seen some insane videos (go to www.own-age.com) and download some of the better trickjump and frag videos from q3 and you'll see what i mean. Just Quake being one that stands out in my mind). I did crash at a friends house who has cable last night after a party, and he happened to have q3 installed (hadn't played it in at least a year) so i went on some clan servers (CAL/TWL/GBL clans) and was booted for just about every single one because they thought i was aimbotting. I also went on some servers and 1v1'd a few guys who are pretty damn good (not naming names since i'm not a name dropper) and they asked me if i was using a hook. Now consider this, and consider the fact that i'm nowhere near the level of the top players (i don't know the weapon timing, etc.) nor do i have the movement down to an art. The only thing i had was a much-better-than-average aim. Now imagine someone with godlike reflexes, aim, timing, trickjumping and teamwork skills (or a clan with a good mix) and you start to see how far beyond people like that are from casual players. You seriously have no clue, because you have no comprehension of the things these people can do.

Still, I'm not convinced we have to classify them as "pro gamers" just to feed their egos (sorry but that's my opinion). A very good player maybe, 100% shot accuracy possibly, but what's the point at the end?

A power cut kills their ability. At least if you're a "pro raquet baller" you can keep playing :D

Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
Still, I'm not convinced we have to classify them as "pro gamers" just to feed their egos (sorry but that's my opinion). A very good player maybe, 100% shot accuracy possibly, but what's the point at the end?

A power cut kills their ability. At least if you're a "pro raquet baller" you can keep playing :D

Show me someone with 100% accuracy outside of a 1v1 and i'll be banning them.

http://news.com.com/2008-1043_3-5156140.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=news)