I think the general consensus is that it onlyhappens in a saber lock.

And on another note. We're not even half way through with discussing the whole system and we're almost 3 pages full.

This is alot of thread to sift through.

a real time meeting is an interesting idea but I don't think it's going to work out. There's too many of us in varying time zones. Plus, I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week so this next week is shot.

Ok then we'll wait 'till next week for razor to return.

I'll read up on the character interlock system razor and ytmh talked about and learn more about it... i didn't notice this kinda of stuff was already being discussed. A SoulCalibur targeting system would work too. Not a problem for there either.

The locks could be broken by any of the intervinients. The attacker by simply stop attacking or jumping/dodging out, and the defender by dodging/jumping out.

As far as multiple opponents go... the lock only happens while engaged in combo/defending... if attacked by 2 enemies, if one only performs normal un comboed attacks, they wont be locked for long or at all.

Another way of doing it is if you somehow engage autotarget. Meaning you aim the crosshair at an enemy and then engage a autotarget for as long as u want... having autotarget as a togglable new function is a nice way to go cuz there you'd have full control. And in this case, there isn't the need to force both players simultaneously into a interlock. Like when engaging in a private duel in FFA except the other doesnt have to accept... one ca be autotargeting the enemy while the other is in normal mode.

keshire made a valid point... we are already at 3 pages i nthis thread. we should be organizing the info cuz in a few days this page will probably be twice as long and there will be old ideas repeated and new ideas... the point is that it's gonna be hard to organize and take everything into account soon. We should keep a record of ideas. they dont need to be fully explained..we just need to catalog them so we can think about them and how they work from a simple title and small description than having to look around in a 10 pages long thread later to gather the ideas.

There's no need for that. From my year of work on MotF, I've found that new ideas for the saber system come up often enough that making a written plan of things is just a waste of time. I just store everything in the best place possible, my own head. :)

Plus, things often change while you do coding work as well.

You can write everything down if you want to; just don't expect it to be the end all of things while I'm coding the system. :)

Like Razorace said writing it down is useless. But some non essential posts should be trimmed/deleted. Which I'll be doing to my own here in a few minutes.

I wouldn't do that either. It will screw up the context of the thread. Just leave it the way it is please.

Thanks.

Heh now worries man... I dont intend to run the show or anything not related to 3d which is my main field. :)

Well if you feel that way then it's ok. However... eventho wedont have to list every idea we've discussed here.. i still feel we should meet in real time chat... by debating with renegade in forums and chat.. it's pretty obvious that forum comunication is a bit limited in terms of understanding.

But if you prefer i'll leave that up to you when you get back from vacation if you want.

cheers :)

Ha. 3D. I've seen that Multimedia Authoring degree get very little use over the past few years. Now I'm an AS/400 Admin. Graphics are just a hobby that cost a lot of money to acquire.

heh.. of course u dont know, but im the 3d team coordinator at df2 mod.

I'd like to work professionally in 3d art, both modeling and animating... but i also have backup plans ;)

I found an interesting page on saber dueling in the OT movies. I figured it might give people a better idea of what Im talking about. The address is http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/jks/saber/saberfighting.html)

hope this helps people get some inspiration.

It's an interesting analysis but I don't put too much faith into it. It was written before Episode 1 and while real world techniques apply to some degree, it's very hard to translate real world techniques to involve sabers and Force powers.

What did you think of the ProMod system for JK2?

Btw, that "Art of Saber Fighting" page is copied VERBATIM from Robert B. Brown (aka "B Squared")'s Star Wars page (he did a ton of in-depth pages on the Millennium Falcon and Lightsabers, lots of technical research and speculation... he didn't take the EU for granted, though he became dissillusioned with Star Wars after Episode II came out, so his info only covered up to Episode I).

Still, considering Brown's page is no longer around, I suppose he wouldn't mind too much he's being plagiarized... (?)

While the ProMod system is an interesting idea, it's too lag dependant and simply not realistic.

Plus, I don't like rock-paper-scissors style balancing, it's too simplistic and annoying.

Rock paper Scissors is how the current balancing is done in regards to the saber styles. And I for one strongly dislike it. The styles should be used for visual, and technical (ie, one-handed, two-handed, dual sabers, staff, etc.)

At least a little control should be given to the saberists in everything they do.

From the swing, the block, the parry and parry break, the locks, everything.

I'd also like to see more context sentive actions like the dual saber stab while surrounded.

I agree with you both. Stances essencially for style.
Keshire made a good point on the context stuff... there is already a few of those as you know... so maybe we can explore that a bit more. ~Just to throw an example... imagine playing powerduel, the player has both enemies in front of him, one at 2 o'clock and the other at 10 o'clock... and you are probably backtracking to keep them from coming from oposite sides... maybe if you press attack and kick you'd defend or parry one as you kick the other... or if playing with the staff or duels, one blade would go for one and the other blade for the other... something like that.

The split kick for staff and the sideways stab are examples very alike this one except for the dynamic of what you can do.

Cheers.

Yes and those are just context sensitive attacks. Like Bloodriot said, what about context sensitive blocking? Whats the feasability of coding that in? This would definately help when being ganged up on which is a current problem. Though I could see lag being a problem.

Give an example of context senstive blocking.

is there anything that we can do to stop strafe running and such

Yep. Actually that's something that we haven't talked about yet.

I'm thinking that the walk speed needs to be boosted to something more approprate for combat and the full strafe speed for running needs to either be slowed down or balanced with reduced accuracy or something.

Context senstive blocking example.

If surrounded and attacked at same time cue alternate blocking anim, and maybe counter attack on one of opposing attackers (to free up some space).

And yes there really needs to be some type of check on strafing. I say slow it down AND reduce the turning motion when using a saber. Strafing would then be replaced by the side flip and roll. Which I wouldn't mind all that much. As long as checks were put on those as well.

I don't know how this would affect gunners though. They really like their circle strafe.

I'd say dont restrict the speed at all, just make it cost lots of stamina.
That way, you COULD run/strafe like a madman,
but you'd get tired soon and any adversary would finish you off really fast.

The idea to use a soulcalibur like autofacing would work towards reducing straff running.

Also I think Stamina draining is the way to go to stop people from running... I would tone down running speed a bit tho...not much but definetly a bit.

I can understand strafe running costing more stamina and accuracy but I don't beleive that should apply to walk strafing. You need that for combat manovering.

razor can you tell me what your way of controlling the saber is???

Hold on one second, Strafing shouldn't cost anymore stamina than running or walking, since it's nothing more than running or walking.

It doesn't take JEDI REFLEXES or incredible ammounts of coordination and dexterity to strafe. Or even to run-strafe.

So, you know. I think the whole thing can easily be adjusted by simply messing with the speed values.

Say, if you need to get out of the way real fast, you can use a special move, and if you simply want to circle around the opponent you can just strafe as usual. Strafing is a very important part of any sort of combat tactic, you can't charge people excessively for using it since they'll be using it as much as regular walking (because strafing IS regular walking, just in different directions while facing the same target).

Originally posted by Gotaiken
razor can you tell me what your way of controlling the saber is???

Read the rest of the thread. It should be in there somewhere.

Wehey - the SDK is here. Now we can start realising these ideas... :)


So far, I've been stressing the importance of making sure you know what your aims are before you set out making the saber system...

...but actually, I've been thinking about it. And in the case of the OJP, I think I've changed my mind. IMO, I think each of us who are thinking off adding new features into the OJP should just go ahead and add them. Of course we need to be aware of what other people are working on and try and avoid overlap as much as possible...

Then, after all these features have been added, and we can see them in action, THEN we can decide which features will / will not make it into the eventually released mod.

So - I guess what I'm trying to say is, we don't all need to have the same aims in mind to contribute to the OJP, we can decide those details later - just contribute whatever you want to (within reason). And then we will either decide to use it in the OJP release mod, or it may well get used in other mods built from the OJP...

This isn't exactly the place to discuss this but the thread of these threads is to maintain some design coordination between the coders. If everyone can be comfortable with a set idea and person doing it, there's no need for overlapping work.

If everyone can be comfortable with a set idea and person doing it, there's no need for overlapping work.


OK - that would be ideal. But I have a feeling that by the time we agreed on the 'set' idea, JK IV would already be on the shelves.. ;)

I think each person's visions of saber combat is going to have to be realised in seperate mods. The OJP system is undoubedly going to be a compromise between all our ideas.

..anyway, just getting my point of view across. Of course let's still discuss the individual features and how they would work together and who's doing them - but what I'm saying is, if feature A doesn't work with feature B, but could work quite well with features C and D, let's just add all of them and sort it out later - with the significant advantage of seeing these features in action...

I'll enjoy watching the mass chaos when decision time rolls around. I got a nice stash of popcorn ready. ;)

I'll enjoy watching the mass chaos when decision time rolls around. I got a nice stash of popcorn ready.


heh :D

I'm afraid u may be right on this one Keshire.

Well, I believe it would be best if we all worked for the same, instead of a fruit salad since we dont know if certain feature works with the other.

If it was up to me...i'd make the codders all work on the stamina system, since it was agreed by most here, and we pretty much know we want it in.

Make it work with the current base saber system. After it's set in, you start working on the new combat system in terms of functionality. And finally after the functional part is done... you work on the visual appeal.

This is a somewhat simplistic view... but i'm sure everyone understands what i mean.

Well even if my way isn't the right way... one thing is for sure... we do need some order or this mod is going straight to hell.

Cheers.

I agree. We need some sort of feature tree based on what everyone wants sorted by popularity. The farther down the tree you go the more varients in ideas you can have.

Then you have the plug and play type features that don't rely on the entire system. Such as disarming when a thrown saber is blocked. (I think thats already a game feature but an example none-the-less) Or disabling the normal saber return.

These would be higher up on the tree and should be cvar on/off.

Then you basically have

OJP Basic
OJP Enhanced
and now OJP Varient :Sequel Enhanced ;)

What EVENTUALLY get's into the released OJP mod - sure - shoudl be decided by majority (at least in my opinion).

...BUT, what I'm trying to say is, let's not harshly restrict what features get added to the code base at this stage just because we can't quite picture how the feature would look.

A feature that you dismissed at this stage, you might suddenly decide when you see it in action 'Ahhh - actually, that works really well, as long as we slightly adjust feature A and B to match it...'

..let's not limit ourselves at this early stage. The OJP is not your normal developemnt project, and I don't think it can be treated as such...

The OJP is not your normal developemnt project, and I don't think it can be treated as such...

Oh of course not. And I'd never assume as much either.

But still, there needs to be some type of order to it all.

We could divide things into categories like we've been doing and outline what we propose.

Working on an entire system is all well and good. But keep in mind people will want to pick and choose which parts they want.

*cough*Renegade and Razor*cough*

so divide your work into modules like how the entire OJP as a whole works now.

Basic
Skins
Vehicles

then you'd have subsets.
basic
--saber locking module 1
--saber parry module
--saber thrown modification
--gun tweaking
--movement tweaking
--etc etc etc.

of course these would be all included I'm just outlining an orderly submission system.

of course you could always revert to a medieval bartering system. ;)

then you'd have subsets.
basic
--saber locking module 1
--saber parry module
--saber thrown modification
--gun tweaking
--movement tweaking
--etc etc etc.


Yeap - I agree. These kind of catagorisations would be helpful.

But as Razor mentioned, this is becoming an overall discussion on how OJP works rather than specifically the saber system. I think we may need a seperate thread.

In any case, since it's only Razor and I who are planning to contribute code-wise to this new saber system at the moment (as far as i'm aware), I'm sure we can organise these various features between us easiely enough.
It's only our visions which clash (often and hard!). Once we've got it in our heads what we are actually trying to do, we work together pretty well actually imo... :)

So let me get things back on track by listing what I can see as the main features listed so far:

* Stamina system
* Mouse Sabering (does this include directional block as well?)
* Dodge
* Pre-scrpited sequences (PT combat - my suggestion)
* Dynamic combos (Razors idea)
* Lock players together when in a chained combo (BR's extension of Razor's idea)
* ztargeting concept

...are there any big ones I've missed?

btw - can I just clarify something about this dynamic combos idea.

You can que up your attacking moves, I get that. But each move is still slowed down enough so that the defending Jedi can manually block them - right?

* Mouse Sabering (does this include directional block as well?)

VSIM ala Die by the Sword? I don't think that will go over well. Unless you mean a modified version. Would freelook be disabled?

Technically the direction buttons do the same thing. At least animation wise. But with the combo system as it is now its less pronounced. You can kill the current combo system and build a new one.

current
right=right, then downright=stupid spinning combo.

proposed
right=right, then downright=start to spin, then down=continue spin etc etc.

You can que up your attacking moves, I get that. But each move is still slowed down enough so that the defending Jedi can manually block them - right?

in order to add both movie quality and blocking ability. How about making them progressively slower. Start fast get slow. Not too slow of course, just enough.

Die by the Sword?


No - it's not full-on Die By The Sword stylie. I wouldn't want to go that way either. That's a perfect example of 'realism' at the total expense of an enjoyable, fun game.

Although it's worth pointing out (as I have done earlier) that those people who want the skill factor of this system to ALWAYS be DIRECTLY related to saber movement, you are effectively asking for a Die By The Sword system.

(..I actually dont' think anybody involved in this thread wants that kind of system. But what I think a few may not realise is that their proposed system is not actually so tied DIRECTLY to saber movement as they think it is. You onyl ahve to compare to DBTS and it becomes obvious)

You'll have to wait for Razor to reply for an authoritive re-explination, but as far as I understand it, you hit attack and briefly swing the mouse a certain way. Whether free-view is still active during this swing, I'm not positive. (I would argue it shoudln't be), but anyway, I don't think you have to make a long mouse movement (timewise). THe important detail is in the distance you move the mouse.

Slight movement = quicker, weaker attack.
Large movement = slower, stronger attack.

This basically means you don't need seperate 'styles' anymore - all the moves of all the styles are accessable at the same time.

...was all that correct Razor?

I see. So he's tieing mouse movement and speed to directional keys and saberanimspeed? Would that be a good comparison?

What kind of new animations if any are we looking at with type of system? I'm sure the current combo system dynamic or not will work with something like that.

I see. So he's tieing mouse movement and speed to directional keys and saberanimspeed? Would that be a good comparison?


I don't think directional keys would have any influence on the direction of the saber attack - that would be decided on which way you move the mouse.
I think that's one of the advantages, you don't ahve to be moving left to perform an attack to the left...


What kind of new animations if any are we looking at with type of system? I'm sure the current combo system dynamic or not will work with something like that


I think all the features could potentially benfift from new anims, but by far the one which would befefit the most would be my pre-determines sequences.

...those would be a REAL chance to show off some anim skillz :)

I don't think directional keys would have any influence on the direction of the saber attack - that would be decided on which way you move the mouse.

My bad I meant replace. Currently you do move the saber in corrolation to the direction keys but of course you also move too.

Which gives me an idea, if you don't go with the mouse sabering idea the least you could do is limit movement while the attack button is held down. This means the only way to move forward back and strafe is to let go of the attack button for a brief moment.

Obviously the ideal is to make it modular so that whatever you do, you only need to add.

I have an idea on how we can make this (I hope it's possible)

Im gonna keep it simple and use the stamina example once again.

So let's say you got the stamina feature and the dynamic saber combos modules complete.

So you create a feature whose only purpose is to interlink the many other features. Call it a Module List if you will. So the list will contain the various modules added to date...in my example, only stamina and dynamic saber combos. Besdies listing it, it says what interlinks with what and how (or maybe the how is inherent to the module itself and in that case you only need to say what links with what).

Module list:
1 - Stamina "2"
2 - Dynamic Combos "1"


Then let's say you complete the dodge module. You edit the Module List and specify if it interacts with this or that... i suppose it will only interact with stamina as well.

Module list:
1 - Stamina "2;3"
2 - Dynamic Combos "1"
3 - Dodge "1"

Then you add the autofacing targeting system and maybe the position lock for duels too. It doesnt strike me that stamina needs to play a part here... but as an example let's say the dynamic combos need this new one as in: you can only perform combos while autofacing and position loocked.

Module list:
1 - Stamina "2;3"
2 - Dynamic Combos "1;4"
3 - Dodge "1"
4 - Autofacelock "2"

This example is assuming the HOW the module affects the other is inherent to the module itself. So, stamina for instance, is besides a meter, an efficiency modifier... everything u link it with well be affected by the current level of stamian in a positive way if high, or negative way if low.

If the HOW it affects has to be delcared on the list, then you could probably specify it some other way. Like:

Module list:
1 - Stamina "2" "1 affects 2 - 1 levels = 2 Effectiveness"
2 - Dynamic Combos "1" "2 is affected by 1 - 1 levels = 2 Effectiveness"

Well I may be talking about stuff i know nothing about... but maybe you codder boys can figure something out. ;)

Cheers

If you're interested in the Mouse Sabering system, I suggest you check out the Masters of the Force website (motf.jk2files.com). It's all explained in there.

Anyway, I think people are over thinking the modularity of OJP. I can understand clearly marking everything and doing some documentation but physically creating a truely modular code system would be a pain in the ass and a waste of time.

This applies to cvars as well. We will not be turning OJP into a cvarfest, people are already complaining of too many cvars. If a individual person wants to disable a particular feature, they can download the source and remove it manually, use OJP Basic, or (if a lot of people are against it) patition for it to be disabled by default in OJP.

I'll remind everyone that it's the contributors that have the final say on all this stuff. If you're not willing to contribute something, you don't get a real vote.

And lastly, the whole point of OJP is to save time by allowing common features to be shared between mods. If Phunk doesn't want to use the OJP implimentation of the saber system, he's feel to modify the system for his mod or completely rewrite if he wants.

No worries there mate.

I dont have anything reagarding code to do... that's your court...your rules ;)

I'm here for the 3d stuff. When it's needed... I'm there. I was just throwing out sugestions :)

Phunk also said that since there are so few codders, that you guyz can just agree between yourselves without the need of a true modular build.

So... just make the best of it.

cheers.

I'm just a clone of Bloodriot. Opinions and all. ;)

OK - so to continue from the post where I listed the features I had noticed in this thread:

* Stamina system
* Mouse Sabering (does this include directional block as well?)
* Dodge
* Pre-scrpited sequences (PT combat - my suggestion)
* Dynamic combos (Razors idea)
* Lock players together when in a chained combo (BR's extension of Razor's idea)
* ztargeting concept

THe only one I know I am going to be working on is Pre-scripted sequences. I believe the rest you are working on Razor - correct? (I think you probably catagorise the dodge / stamina system as the same thing - not sure).

What about this idea of locking players together during a chained combo? Are you planning on doing this?

...just trying to determine who's working on what and if there are any of the features listed above which aren't planned to be worked on...

hmm I think a way of making blocking more like a fighting game (ie: Soul Caliber 2) would be really nice have like a block button and have it that you have to block high and low and if possible add in guard impact and parry :p, I will start looking into the .c code myself to see if I can try and do what I said above (you can add me to the coders :)) If you dont like that idea than ok...but a more fighting game like blocking system would be nice. Maby even have a side block like left side and right side for more block types, that could work nice. I think for a block system it be an animation that just moves the saber to a certain posistion (as if blocking) and should act to deflect and attack, that way you can use low, high, left, and right block (say you press block+down for low block and block+left for block left and so on), that would add more dynamic fighting to duels and such. But if this is all a bad idea just tell me so, I have other ideas. I also have some ideas on completely new force powers (if the OJP is doing that).

Also about the mouse sabering does this cover blocking completely or not? and razorace could you explane mouse sabering better than it is on the MotF site?

Yes, Mouse Sabering should work for attacking and blocking.

And I'm not sure I can explain it any more than what's on the site, you probably didn't look bad enough.