Originally posted by DeliriumenD
Meant to say this in the other post, but it's seperate enough.

The biggest problem facing the Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy games though, is the fact that the community is at odds with itself, which is sadly a side-effect of what the game is.

It is a Star Wars game, with all the bells and whistles of the Star Wars universe. You play a jedi, you kick ass with a lightsaber in the game. It is as much a Lightsaber/Jedi simulator as anything else, and as such, it's every Star Wars fans dream to play as you can either play like Han Solo and Chewie, or like Luke Skywalker depending on your mood.

On the other hand, it's a First Person Shooter with online team based capabilities and the obligatory CTF and such that goes with that. Whats more, the inclusion of the Star Wars universe gives a neat twist here and there to make it a unique game for Competitive play.

So, we now have the Star Wars fans going head to head with the First Person Shooter crowd (who are pretty much the most vocal and elitist bunch online..not to offend, but it seems to be the truth). The Star Wars fans want a game they can have fun playing in, where they can live their life and still have fun and kick some butt online with a lightsaber.

The first person shooter crowd wants a game where the hardcore gamers and competitive crowd is given what it needs to thrive. Where people have so much in the game they think nothing of spending all their freetime perfecting the best and quickest route from flag stand to flag stand so they can get back while exposing themselves to minimal danger.

Sadly, these two crowds both think (and are right in a sense) that their way is the right way. After all, it's a Star Wars game, so you should be able to kick ass in a Star Wars way that is accessible to nearly everyone, much like the movies are. But it's also a FPS which is a type of game that is quite competitive as well, and has some of the fiercest group rivalries I've ever seen online.

This gives the Developer a very tough choice, as no matter which way they turn, guess what, half the players (about) aren't going to be happy. So what do they do then? I hope they make a lot of togglables. Good servers with the toggles you like can be found, favorited, and visited often. Other servers can be ignored.


NOw that is a great post!!! well said there mate :)

That's bullsh*t. The exact same could be said about JO the first few weeks it came out. And guess what - the exact same was said about JO.

JO had some depth. Especially the CTF aspect. You could kick, grip kick, pull throw kick, rage dfa, rage kick (with energize) there were a number of possibilities. That was all removed and now what is there? A kata for every stance (useless unless you're lucky or playing a total newbie) a roll/attack move that is very accurate if your opponent is standing still. And a jump/attack combo for dual/two-handed sabers that is actually not that bad in a big crowd but not when facing a speeding FC.

So because you can't think of any, must of course mean there are none whatsoever?

Yes, that's what I meant. [/sarcasm] Stop assuming what I meant in my posts please. I mean by that the only new combos aren't effective when coming to kill a speeding, aborsbing FC with an energizer. Now they may be extremely effective in FFA or TFFA, but not in CTF, and remember, that is what this thread is talking about.

Yeah, it's the rpg'ers fault, all of this. And I'm sick and tired of hearing this.

FYI, JA has more moves than JO, not less. Surely such a skilled person as you don't need to resort to using the idiotic, useless saber.

No, it's not the RPGers fault, reread my post. I said "Providing your not an RPGer". Did I bash them in that sentence? Did I blame it on them. No. Again, stop assuming.

JA has more moves in JO, yes, great moves, for FFA. We are talking about S/O CTF and FF Duel, which have been shat on in the competition level. At its current state, in JA, two teams who know what they're doing will end in a stalemate everytime unless one team gets lucky. We're here to discuss how to fix those two gametypes, not FFA.

Good point. Now please remove your mouth from each other's crotch each time you've made a reply. I see far too many pointless "I agree completely, shaft" posts.

I'm sorry if he is one of the only people on this forum that make sense in all of his posts. He, on the other hand, unlike most of the flamers in this thread, is trying to resolve this so S/O CTF can become competetive again, and FFA can stay the way it is.

Sure you aren't. And we're not making fun of each other in here at all.

We aren't all making fun of each other in here, and certainly I'm not. There are those of us from the CTF Competetive community and the Casual Gamer community trying to discuss how we can balance JA like JO was balanced so that it works out for everyone. Then there are a few people who don't even discuss the matter at hand and just flame the rest of us saying "No Kicks Suck!!" or "Wewt kicks rule you newbies better get rdy!!11" Maybe you should be quoting their posts.

Fine, there's no competition at all in this game, it can't be salvaged and most of you have made your point days ago. Please leave so we won't have to deal with your threads. Do we agree?

Don't deal with our threads. We're fine. And I didn't mean it will NEVER happen (again, assuming) I meant that as it is the competition won't work. We are here, again, to see if we can get a patch that will balance out the Competition gameplay with the Casual Game gameplay like it was in JO. And, we do not agree.

I don't care if s/o CTF isn't my game, I'm here to keep you from ripping throats out, and make sure you at least use some common sense when writing posts.

Those of us who aren't ripping each others throats are trying to make a discussion. Maybe try talking some sense into people like AxVegetA. People who don't even know what a S/O CTF game is like who come in here saying he would 'own' us at it. Let's try to keep this civil, people.

You could start by playing the game instead of spending all your time here, whining about it. I don't think I've ever seen such a defeatist attitude ever.

Oh yes, because again (assuming), I spend all my time whining in this forum and saying "Raven, raven, patch me!!11" I actually played that game a lot last night on S/O CTF (and seige when I got bored) trying to figure out another way to kill a speeding, absorbing FC with an energizer. And I came up with none. What's new to learn? I learned it all last night. Katas, Jump/Attack moves, roll-attack, goofy roll, concussion rifle, and a strafe jump that takes getting used to. That's about it. Damn that was long.

Someone screamed "Please remove the things that own me!!!111" and raven did it. If the competetive community isn't salvaged, then this game will die. By your own definition, your 'casual gamers.' This means you play no and then. So if the competetive community dies, theres noone to play but a handful of 'casual gamers' who happened to be on at the same time as you.

No one and I mean no one who says 'kicks lame', 'kicks are noobish' has come up with any way in JA to stop an fc who doesn't want to to be stopped. No one. Instead of flaming and quoting your inablilities to avoid kicks, come up with a way to stop an fc who doesn't want to stop. Then and only then will we stop bothering you.

My first comment to make is that I am fairly new at MP having been playing JO MP for only about 5 weeks, but I stumbled into a S/O CTF game on the first day and I have stuck with it.

I'd be the first to comment that I am the kind of newbie player you are taking about getting caught with the flag in JA but having played the demo even I know enough not to stand still and get hit by a Kata.

I have yet to even buy JA, I intended to buy it today but having read this post I am not going to bother until a fix containing the main points raised is created. You may think "no great loss, see ya l8r noob" or whatever but if enough people are put off playing due to imbalances like the ones commented on (actually I'd say that a lack of moves to kill a FC in CTF is more like a bug than an imbalance but there you go) then the community will shrink quicker than my todger in a cold shower.

Blade, thanks for the comments, but you should buy it. It still isn't ALL that bad of a game besides the imbalance. Guns CTF is fun as hell and so is seige. I don't play much FFA because of the "Honor Code" but I'm sure that's sort of fun in its own sick way. Don't let these imbalances ruin it for ya.

Originally posted by Comm539
Saber staff kicks require you to stop, jump and then alt attack. You firstly need to get ahead of the fc (he has speed and is going the same spped as you, pull whoring only recharges him to speed off again), and secondly, by the time you stopped to alt fire kick, he has jumped over you, past you, or just dodged the kick.
This is incorrect. You can certainly do staff kicks on the move without stopping, and if you want you can do it with speed and rage on. Plus there are a variety of kicks at your disposal, even kicking backwards. Plus you do not need to double tap jump, it is just one button, alt fire, making it even easier to do. It is also pretty consistent in causing knockdowns, especially when you are moving. I played around a bit, and doing it with speed on sends them flying! :)

You can try this out yourself, but here is a small demo (http://torch.cs.dal.ca/~mroger/downloads/kicks.dm_25) of kicks on the move and also doing some with speed on. I'm not sure why this is worse than the old flip kick.

You need to catch up / overtake to the fc (he's going at the same spped as you)

There is no 'control' over the kick. It's easily evading by running evasively.

The fc can just jump over your kick.

Although it seems a good method, it might work on a lesser able fc (as does raging and spamming blue stance in his back), but not in a clan match.

Originally posted by AxVegetA

By the way which version of JO are you playing now, or you played (if you dont play it anymore)?
Cause i havent heard in my life a clan called diverse.

if you havent heard of div3rse than i suppose you never played in good servers with good jo players. div3rse has been around as one of the best s/o clans since the beginning of 03 in 03 s/o duel, ctf, ffa and 1.04 s/o ctf.

lets just all hope =X=mod 2.0 fixes alot of the things raven refuses to fix because all they want is a pretty looking game that appeals to "PRESS ATTACK1!!! DAMN I LOST" gamers. RAVEN you could save the modders alot of time by just releasing a patch, say something that allows g_debugmelee 1 to work in mp

alt fire kick is NOT effective unless they are utterly dumb and have no clue as to how to use the movement keys.

Originally posted by thelastaod
lets just all hope =X=mod 2.0 fixes alot of the things raven refuses to fix because all they want is a pretty looking game that appeals to "PRESS ATTACK1!!! DAMN I LOST" gamers. RAVEN you could save the modders alot of time by just releasing a patch, say something that allows g_debugmelee 1 to work in mp

g_debugmelee 1 does work in mp but all it does is allow you to use saberstaff kicks with fists.

and it lets you stick to walls forever, which is uber cool

Well.... a few suggestions have been given, albeit weak suggestions. It's becoming more and more clear that a kick, along with changes that allow the competitive games to actually be 'competitive' instead of 'stalemated' is necessary.

Saber Staff kicking is the most interesting suggestion, because instead of proving a good idea, it actually demostrates what's wrong with JA.

Suppose that the saber staff kick was the solution (even though we all know it very well isn't). That should actually put some alarms in your head, not bring signs of relief and comfort! Imagine if the solution to S/O CTF was that everyone had to carry a Saber Staff in order to compete at high levels. You know as well as I do that it would be a very crappy solution indeed. In fact, I will say right now, if Saber Staff were the solution to the S/O problems, then complaints about the game type are STILL WARRANTED.

The opposers to this argument know VERY WELL that if their favorite game type were also plagued with a solution like "use the saber staff" to be successful, they would also start threads very similar to this one, asking Raven to change things.

My suggestion still stands, along with Comm, etc.

Togglable game types. Competitive versus Casual. Of course, I guess my idea is slightly different, I would also ask for a return to 1.02 damage settings, so that we'd have the kicks, and essentially 'start over', but I'm sure most people are just too comfortable with 1.04 or less.

Anyway, the beauty of it would be that the one half of the community has a STANDARDIZED game with all the bells and whistles, while the other half, the ones that are STILL coming here trying to lambast the S/O CTF players, can keep the JA that they are certain is quite functional enough to play well.

Wow leave for a day to get liquored up and look at all the flames.

:(


Let's try to remain a little civil here guys, calling people "fags" and such is not going to accomplish anything.

and this AXvegeta guy, just ignore him, he's jus a loud mouth, no name random noob trolling to try and get a rise out of people.




I have a very good idea to prove our (the competitive players) point to the masses.


Let’s do a match.

But not just any match.


Let's get, say 8 people on the side of the "learn and adapt" debate and have them face only 5 members of a team of "elites".

Be it [div3rse], FK, a mixed team, whoever.

This match is not to embarrass anyone or prove how much we "have adapted" and can own people, it's to prove to you guys just how futile it is to play against serious skilled players with all of this nerfing.

The reason I say give your side almost double the # of players is to even drive the point home even further that it has become utterly impossible to accomplish the game objectives (even when you have a massive player base advantage) if you are playing anyone who knows what they are doing.


Also as a side note to Jah and Cjas, I know both of you guys are No Force duel players and respect that, but the thing you guys have to keep in mind is, NF sabers and Full Force saber combat (any game type) have almost nothing in common in terms of strategy and game play.

Both take a tremendous amount of skill and practice to master but people need to keep in mind that what is being discussed is the arena of Full Force Saber only combat, so a lot of things that may apply to the world of NF dueling are simply not viable here due to the drastic differences in game type strategy/play.

Well I've come to the conclusion that the only balanced gametypes in JA are FFA and Siege. All the others have lots of problems like saber damage blocking ect. ect.

I actually had fun playing FFA today. I got kills with both the saber and guns. I didn't complain when I got blown up or when I got chat killed or pushed off a ledge.

In fact I was quite happy seeing as how I was able to come in 1st one match. The saber fighting was good aswell. I was able to beat staff and dual wielders with single yellow and red stances. I also was able to hack down a few gunners after pulling their guns.

FFA is a great gametype and the most balanced IMO. I think the single saber damage still needs to be upped like 15 points a swing for yellow though. Other than that the saber fights I had in FFA were much more enjoyable than those in duels when yellow stance does 7 damage a swing.

Duel needs balanced, CTF needs fixed for SO/FF people although I think FF guns/sabers is pretty good. Siege is a very fun game although it needs more vehicles and maps. (hopefully starfighters)

The MP community is just getting started though and I hope that Raven makes a few changes. Giving yellow and blue decent damage and adding kick back in so all the MP complaint threads can be deleted. I don't want to look for mappers and modders to make this game enjoyable for everyone. I think it is well within Raven's boundries to only need one patch. Hopefully they also release new map packs periodically. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens.

I didnt read all of it, but i think if it was like JA SP (ive only played the demo) it would be perfect :cool:

Originally posted by kazesan
Well I've come to the conclusion that the only balanced gametypes in JA are FFA and Siege. All the others have lots of problems like saber damage blocking ect. ect.

I actually had fun playing FFA today. I got kills with both the saber and guns. I didn't complain when I got blown up or when I got chat killed or pushed off a ledge.

In fact I was quite happy seeing as how I was able to come in 1st one match. The saber fighting was good aswell. I was able to beat staff and dual wielders with single yellow and red stances. I also was able to hack down a few gunners after pulling their guns.

FFA is a great gametype and the most balanced IMO. I think the single saber damage still needs to be upped like 15 points a swing for yellow though. Other than that the saber fights I had in FFA were much more enjoyable than those in duels when yellow stance does 7 damage a swing.

Duel needs balanced, CTF needs fixed for SO/FF people although I think FF guns/sabers is pretty good. Siege is a very fun game although it needs more vehicles and maps. (hopefully starfighters)

The MP community is just getting started though and I hope that Raven makes a few changes. Giving yellow and blue decent damage and adding kick back in so all the MP complaint threads can be deleted. I don't want to look for mappers and modders to make this game enjoyable for everyone. I think it is well within Raven's boundries to only need one patch. Hopefully they also release new map packs periodically. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens.

Yes, the gun/saber balance is actually pretty good in an all weapon FFA.

And as I have stated before I love the giant wide open maps.

The problem starts when you disable guns and you now have healing powers 3 times more powerful than the sabers..

Not to mention the other force powers (and combos now being totally gone) restricted by some sort of absurd newly implemented nerf.


:mad:

Originally posted by Comm539
You need to catch up / overtake to the fc (he's going at the same spped as you) This issue isn't dependent on flipkick, is it? I mean, you have to catch the FC to kick him anyway, right? I don't see how kick solves this problem.

Originally posted by Comm539
There is no 'control' over the kick. It's easily evading by running evasively. Why is there no control? You can kick in more directions than flipkick, and you can kick on command, at any point in you jump. Flipkick is evadable as well, is it not?

Originally posted by Comm539
The fc can just jump over your kick. Why would they be able to jump over the staff kick? You can kick with the saberstaff at any point of the jump. You can be at the peak of your jump and kick. Isn't this the same as flipkick? I mean, with both forms of kick you can jump up to the FC (if he is in the air) and kick him, and both will knock him on the ground.

Originally posted by Comm539
Although it seems a good method, it might work on a lesser able fc (as does raging and spamming blue stance in his back), but not in a clan match. I guess I am wondering what flipkick provides that the staff kick does not?

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Imagine if the solution to S/O CTF was that everyone had to carry a Saber Staff in order to compete at high levels. You know as well as I do that it would be a very crappy solution indeed. But why would it be crappy to need the saberstaff to compete at high levels? From what I have read, competative players don't care what the method is to be successful, they will use whatever is the most effective. If the saberstaff (and its kicks) would be the best weapon, why would competative players care? They aren't playing JA for the variety of moves, they are playing to use the most effective thing, or group of things, over and over to get the win. I'm just wondering why this matters to competative players.

I'm not trying to be difficult here guys. I'm just trying to see for myself where the holes really are. :)

that's a difficult question prime. the answer, I feel, is this.

In previous dueling, where kick existed, kick was just another move. I didn't need the blue saber or the red saber to do the trick. I wasn't stuck with a bunch of moves that I probably coudln't even use well. I had all three stances, and a kick that was reliable.

Having the saber staff become the solution is just downright.... wrong. That would mean that everyone is stuck with one set of moves to use. To add to that, the kick is not nearly as effective as the old kick. So now, the elite players aren't just going to use whatever they have to win, they're going to be using something that will probably jsut give them more headaches.

While the old kick was considered spammy or whored, at the same time, it still allowed for variety. It did not hinder what people could do. If you liked blue stance, yellow stance, etc., you could still use it, even though the results may have varied.

Saber staff leaves you with little option to do whatever. It wouldn't be right... everyone else would have a diverse gametype, but the S/O crew would be stuck with... Darth Maul CTF. It would be like receiving an insulting downgrade from Raven. They decided that you need kicks that aren't really that good at stopping runners, and that you all need to impersonate Darth Maul to succeed? That would be just mean.

The S/O CTF needs a solution that doesn't involved limiting the game to ONE saber style. Even JO had three.

The problem is that a lot of people wanted JA to be like JO, not the game, they don't want to go back to JO, they want patch JA untill match JO gameplay.

I play Full Force Weapons CTF, but that doesnt means I never has played Saber Only.

A lot of people says they are competitive players and are ruined... :S whats that?, I'm a competitive player and I accept the changes and the challenge, I don't need kick to survive.

The FC is still killable(?) just now need differents tactics and yes, the s/o games usually ends 1 - 0 or 2 - 1.

Now trying to help these people try the following (this time I will not recommend weapons)

If has speed pull him (to slow him down a bit) if has absorb saberthow, barricades a staff kick from someone in the front. if turns protect grip, if has healers and/or energizers kill them first.
If the FC is acompanied(?) by two "bodyguards" (not healers/energizers) stay waiting to loose or send a massive group after them.

these aren't the best ways to deal but they work (not always but work). my personal recomandation is to play, search new tactics instead of ask for a patch in less than a week from release.

games evolve. humans do the same.

this is a new game don't try to portait your previous skill, make new ones.

I'm sorry but this is the more I can do for you, we will never see on a aserver because we have obiously(?) our differences, this is also my last post in any "ctf is ruined" topic. I hope you resolve your problem.

Best of Luck for all of U finding a new way to deal with a FC on JA CTF s/o!

Prime to understanding kicking in Jedi Outcast you need to understand this:

It goes a hell of a lot deeper than the double tap to cause 20 hp of damage or a knock down when playing in competitive communities.

The best kick user in the history of Jedi Outcast was a guy from =X= named Idiot Savant.

He could do things with those double tap kicks that even to this day make the best of the best stand there with open mouths in amazement.

Take a map like ctf_ns_streets.


He would chase a flag carrier down who was moving at 90 miles per hour with level 3 speed and protected from pulls by absorb, swoop down from almost out of no where and land on a two inch section of a ledge just at the exact moment the flag carrier passed it, and then precisely kick and angle his shot to score a knock back in the opposite direction to knock the guy off for a pit death and return his flag.

All executed with almost surgical precision that even many elite players could not match.

The kicks and how they were used on competition level play is nothing like how they are used by average players on public servers.

For us they are a very complex and precise tool we used in multiple situations to get the job done.

There are even certain kick methods the average players don't even know about.

Angled velocity kicks are one of those methods.

Do you know ho to rush a person head on and then do kick directly face to face in a straight line but send the guy off in a 90 degree angle to his doom (like off a ledge) with out ever changing your player direction to angle the impact point?


The thing you have to understand prime is in CTF a capper is not going to fight you nor is he ever going to put himself at risk.

And when you factor in that he can jump 100 feet up into the air and run at 90 mph, you are going to have to stop/obstruct and pound on him or kill him with an instant blow.

Now having every single saber blow (with higher damage scale cvar) be a one hit kill is a bad idea because it becomes a game of “bump and die”.

Remember those old 80’s arcade games where if you even touched any monster you instantly died?

That gets very annoying to say the least.

It also eliminates strategy because all you have to do is go RAAGGGGHHHH and flail randomly and you are guaranteed instant kills on anything you touch, aimed shots or not make no difference.

Where kicks are a major factor in ff/so ctf can be seen on maps like the new coruscant streets (or w/e it is called).

a capper has to watch his ass because of all those ledges and such when he makes a run for the flag or is on his way back.

You got a guy guarding a bridge mid way and even with absorb, if you try to leap over him he will do an offensive push/pull to stun you just as you leap, run in and kick you off in a single shot (while you are in the recovery animation) to your doom and return his flag.

Now with kicks gone, you run, leap, he stuns you, and... as he trys a Kata, you walk around him, stop, call him a moron and keep on trucking.

g_saberDamageScale 10

Problem solved. IF the FC so much as gets touched by a saber he's dead.

Sup.Where to start?Absolutely horrid gameplay....I'll start there.

First off I feel like I'm moving in slow motion.What the heck is up with that?To many complaints from n00bs that couldn't keep up in Outcast?

Next up is that totally useless wall run animation that basically just sux ...period.

The absence of kick is a two fold affair...while it was certainly abused, it was also an extremely useful tool.Why not just remove the damage component from it and leave it in?Scared?

Finally there is the heavy stance DFA(or whatever its called) being completely remapped.Why in hell did that have to be changed?It was perfect the way it was...difficult to master but extremely effective when mastered.Hmmm maybe my 2hit insta-kill move(backflipkick to heavy DFA) scared you a bit.


JaredSyn (AKA SnakeEyes or ///Akuma)


;)

Originally posted by the weiner dog!




I have a very good idea to prove our (the competitive players) point to the masses.


Let’s do a match.

But not just any match.


Let's get, say 8 people on the side of the "learn and adapt" debate and have them face only 5 members of a team of "elites".

Be it [div3rse], FK, a mixed team, whoever.

This match is not to embarrass anyone or prove how much we "have adapted" and can own people, it's to prove to you guys just how futile it is to play against serious skilled players with all of this nerfing.

The reason I say give your side almost double the # of players is to even drive the point home even further that it has become utterly impossible to accomplish the game objectives (even when you have a massive player base advantage) if you are playing anyone who knows what they are doing.




I'm team captain.

Try this
g_saberDamageScale 10

Problem solved. IF the FC so much as gets touched by a saber he's dead.



Try reading what I just posted.

Not to mention most ladders require you to play with friendly fire on (almost all competitive games are like this in all leagues).

Do you have any idea how annoying and impossibly frustrating that would make competition play?



Guys again, having every single glancing blow and bare knick do instant death is a bad idea.

That is why this problem can not be solved with an across the board damage cvar.

Has anyone tried setting saber throw to 0? I heard that allowed you kicks for ALT fire instead of throw. I don't know if it's true, but it would allow you to kick and not use the staff.

I'll go check it out.

EDIT: Nevermind, this doesn't work.

The tenloss scope shoudl activate and deactivate on touch rather than a 1 sec delay.

Yeah I have a gripe with the tenloss scope too, as a Merc in the one siege game I was Boba Fett with the jet pack. Flying from roof top to roof top and sniping is sweet, but the scope takes to long to deactivate. I got killed several times by a rocket b/c I took that last second shot, went to turn my rocket pack on but the damn scope took to long to deactivate.

Saber only sucks in JA. All the noobs that play Jedi in the Siege game get totally owned by my l33t sniping skills. Boba > Jedi

owned by a saberist to mention as well with 150+ ping on american servers

heh, yeah the sniper scope delay is a very big gripe from all of the twl gunners as well.

it's another example of a nerf that was not needed but put it and screwed some thing up.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
Try reading what I just posted.

Not to mention most ladders require you to play with friendly fire on (almost all competitive games are like this in all leagues).

Do you have any idea how annoying and impossibly frustrating that would make competition play?



Guys again, having every single glancing blow and bare knick do instant death is a bad idea.

That is why this problem can not be solved with an across the board damage cvar.

So essentially what you are saying is that by removing kick they killed CTF. I thought you were all arguing that saber damage was too weak which is why kick was so effective in the first place. Now that kick is gone and saber damage can be controlled I don't know what the issue is.

I'm sure what you are saying is true, that CTF is no longer viable in JA...I think that with time things will adjust and you'll find CTF, although different from JO, is just as doable as it ever was. I'm SURE a reasonable damage scale can be found that will not cause insta-kills but will make the FC a lot more vulnerable.

I know you'll still argue your points, but I just thought I'd throw two cents in.

A little off-topic here...has anyone else gotten a lot of LAG playing? I have a pretty good connection, been playing JO for months with no problem, but all of sudden in JA I have lots of trouble in Power DUel and Siege especially.


And, in s/o ctf, how did you ever catch a runner in the first place? You say that removing kick means you can't hit him when you chase him from behind... For the record, if you play SABER ONLY, the whole point is to have close-up fighting. the saber was not designed for pursuits, so it is rather unsuited to capture the flagging.

Originally posted by boinga1
A little off-topic here...has anyone else gotten a lot of LAG playing? I have a pretty good connection, been playing JO for months with no problem, but all of sudden in JA I have lots of trouble in Power DUel and Siege especially.


I agree on there being some interesting latency issues.

That and it takes about 3 minutes to go from Awaiting Gamestate to the loading screen...

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
To add to that, the kick is not nearly as effective as the old kick.

So now, the elite players aren't just going to use whatever they have to win, they're going to be using something that will probably jsut give them more headaches. But why isn't it potentially (once people get the hang of it) as effective as the old kick? What can you do with the old kick that you cannot with the new kick? People may not be as good with it right off the bat, but if they can achieve the same ends, then eventually people should be just as good and effective with the new kick as with the old.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Having the saber staff become the solution is just downright.... wrong. That would mean that everyone is stuck with one set of moves to use.

While the old kick was considered spammy or whored, at the same time, it still allowed for variety. It did not hinder what people could do. If you liked blue stance, yellow stance, etc., you could still use it, even though the results may have varied.

The S/O CTF needs a solution that doesn't involved limiting the game to ONE saber style. Even JO had three. But from what I understand, no one really uses the lightsaber anyway, because it is too week. From what I understand, the red stance is used for DFA and the heavy damage. Did anyone use the light and medium stances in JO S/O CTF? All I have heard is how the lightsaber was just a glowrod. That is why kicking is so important, because even Red isn't good enough to kill, so kick becomes the premier weapon. So if no one used other stances (correct me if this wasn't the case), why is there a problem with just using the lightstaff? And in any event, why do competative players care? They just want to use what wins. Whether it is one stance or several stances shouldn't matter to them.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
The best kick user in the history of Jedi Outcast was a guy from =X= named Idiot Savant.

He could do things with those double tap kicks that even to this day make the best of the best stand there with open mouths in amazement.

Take a map like ctf_ns_streets.

He would chase a flag carrier down who was moving at 90 miles per hour with level 3 speed and protected from pulls by absorb, swoop down from almost out of no where and land on a two inch section of a ledge just at the exact moment the flag carrier passed it, and then precisely kick and angle his shot to score a knock back in the opposite direction to knock the guy off for a pit death and return his flag.

All executed with almost surgical precision that even many elite players could not match.

The kicks and how they were used on competition level play is nothing like how they are used by average players on public servers.

For us they are a very complex and precise tool we used in multiple situations to get the job done.

Do you know ho to rush a person head on and then do kick directly face to face in a straight line but send the guy off in a 90 degree angle to his doom (like off a ledge) with out ever changing your player direction to angle the impact point?

He does sound impressive. But is there anyhing about the new kick that would prevent him from becoming equally effective in JA? As far as I can tell, all the abilities of flip kick are present in the staff kick. If it is not, what is lacking? Likely people aren't going to be as good with it as the old way yet, but after practice they should be just as good if they can do the same things. You are be able to move in one direction and kick in another, since the staff kick has this ability (whether I can do it is or not is anotehr story :) ).


Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Where kicks are a major factor in ff/so ctf can be seen on maps like the new coruscant streets (or w/e it is called).

a capper has to watch his ass because of all those ledges and such when he makes a run for the flag or is on his way back.

You got a guy guarding a bridge mid way and even with absorb, if you try to leap over him he will do an offensive push/pull to stun you just as you leap, run in and kick you off in a single shot (while you are in the recovery animation) to your doom and return his flag.

Now with kicks gone, you run, leap, he stuns you, and... as he trys a Kata, you walk around him, stop, call him a moron and keep on trucking. But again, he is able to kick him off the ledge with the new kick, isn't he?

velocity kicks = not possible with staff kick

kicking on the move = not possible on anyone that is moving and has half a brain

flip kicks require you to jump and usually involve using push/pull to get the kickee to come within range and stun them. pull kicking wtih the staff = not possible.

The "new" kick is extremely limited.

First, only the saber staffers can execute it, so basically (If that kick did work like in JO) you just took out the other 2 lightsabers. Think cookie cutter.

At least in outcast you did have people that used light stance (me for example) instead of the heavy stance and were still able to do better than most. So Outcast was at least a little diversified in tactics. In Academy everyone would use staff only b/c they could use kick.


Back to why the "new" kick is limited. Second, its slower than molasses in 30 degree weather. By the time a guy using force speed comes by with absorb, FIRST you gotta stop him, ok you pull/push him, OH CRAP now I cant kick for another 2 seconds b/c i just pulled! The flag carrier promplty waves thanks for the force boost and continues his way.

Academy has taken all combos and flushed them straight down the toilet. Everything requires a cool down, I rolled and tried to pull this guy down, but found that you cant do anything while your rolling. The only combos that are left in this game are holding down the attack button and rotating around and circles to make your guy spin with the lightsaber.

PEOPLE! TRY TO ADAPT TO THE GAME BEFORE YOU SAY IT ALL SUCKS!

The kick is limited. You know why? Because the JO one was over-used. When people run around with no weapon and just kick people instead of using a LIGHTSABER, that means that something is wrong. That means something has to be done. So, Raven removes over-spammed kick. I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE, although they could simply have removed damage from it.

There are TONS of combos left. If you are talking about gripkick, pullkick, pullthrow, pullthrowkick, then yes, these combos are gone. But there are new moves for every stance, AS WELL AS TWO COMPLETELY NEW SABER STYLES.


And why is kick so important in the first place? That's waht I don't get.

Kick was a setup move or a stopper. In CTF I would kick an opponant down turn absorb on so he could not push me than heavy stance slash em and 1 hit kill.

New saber moves are not combos.

A combo is 2+ moves put together to devestate your opponant quickly. Jumping and swinging your saber is not a combo. Kata (although looks like a combo) is not one, its pressing 2 buttons at once and sitting back to watch the pretty colors.

The only way for you people that keep posting things like, find some new tactics, to actually see what we are complaining about is to take two of the competition players and make a demo so you can all see what were talking about. Also to make a demo of a match in Jedi Outcast between the same two people. I guarantee you would all agree on what we are trying to say here.

In competition play, what seperates the l33t's from the noobs is that ability to win in a single quick and devestating combo. If you cannot end the match in that single combo than your going to be standing there for a VERY LONG TIME.

/ignore fan boy rant mode on




Ok back on topic, prime like screed said it is very limited.

Trust me we have been trying to find ways to "exploit" or "spam" them to some level of effectiveness against skilled players but it is simply too limited and restrictive.

Oh sure I can kick "Padawan" down all day and saber the hell out of him (as I have the many noobs I have played over the last two days), but when playing a guy like Screed or myself, we see it coming a mile away and it's simply too damn slow and restrictive to be of any use.


Think of it like the "fists" you have when no points are put in saber skills.

Sure if I practiced non stop I could do some really impressive mid air punches on people, but in terms of an over all tool that can be used to effectively progress game play how much of a use is it?


0

Remember guys, we are talking competition level player vs. competition level player problems here, not us vs. Joe Blow on public servers.

it slows down the fc and/or knocks them down pits and/or to the ground.

prime: kick wasnt the only thing used in s/o ctf. red style saber was the most used. kick was used to knock down and finish off.

I played JO 1.02, duels, ffa and ctf.
The proble here seems to be in CTF.

First of all, in JO you couldnt choose too many force powers points (depending on the servers), so you could choose for example, absorb 2, pull full, saber atack full and jump full.
You can do that in JA too, i guess.
So that if they have absorb, speed and jump full, they wont have any saber defense or ofense, and they wont be able to pull push.
Also CTF servers had a low regen time.

So if the FC runs with speed and absorb (unusual in ctf 1.02), you have these choices:

If you are behind him, or you run with speed too and try to cath him, well pulling or whatever. In this case you will probably fail.
In JO you couldnt catch a guy with speed if you were behind him.
Actually thats what speed does.

But if you are in front of him, you have several options.
You could stand in front of him and do any saber move, and if he jumps over you, well, that will cost him more force than what he has alredy consumed (using speed and absorb), in case you miss the atack and he jumps over you, and keeps runing, or you fall back or you just try to catch him bunny hoping till his speed runs of (once it does you can grip them cause they wont have pp, hehe), and you arent alone in your team, another player can do the same and i am completely sure that with a second jump he wil run out of force.

Dont tell me you defend the flag in the exact flag place, lol, cause you arent able to kill the enemy before it caps or after.

Thats the reason why only noobs used speed-absorb in JO.
The good players buny hoped (you go faster in some levels), and stoped every once in a while to fight players pulling him or standing in front.

I havent played 1.03 or any other, but i am sure its the same concept.

The only problem you could complain about CTF in JA is that you have a fast regen time and a lot of points to select force powers.

You all "competitive s/o ctf players", rofl, wanted the same strategies to play ctf as in JO. I guess now u suck, because its diferent, maybe the game isnt suposed to end 5/4 or 12/8, but 20/15 or who knows.

By the way, i dont know diverse, i never played 1.03.
That clan may be the best in 1.03 but just that.
And supernub, please, please stf, YOU are the bigest insult to the game, your opinion in ANY topic is completely worthless.

Fist fighting is fun!:mad:


Ax? Doesnt that stand for almost =X= b/c you suxxored to much to get in their clan?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
and this AXvegeta guy, just ignore him, he's jus a loud mouth, no name random noob trolling to try and get a rise out of people.


Excuse me sir but that must be you.

AXVegeta or whatever your in game name is, let's do this:

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.03.

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.04.

You don't EVEN HAVE Jedi Academy.

How about you shut the hell up when until you can actually contribute to what people are talking about by actually KNOWING what they are talking about.


/edit do you play Jk2 1.04?


Please, oh dear god please tell me you do.

If you do I will make you this deal:

1v1 me, 10 rounds (a full map), no time limit.

You win I leave these forums and never come back.

I win, you stay out of this tread or any others we start about this topic.

Deal?

I'm serious.

All you have done is flame and troll in here and do your best to turn this into a flame war, here is your chance to walk what you talk.

ctf regen isnt slow its default

and most good ctf servers use master level force so you get quite alot of force points so I dont see how it's unusual for fcs to use absorb + speed. if they didnt they would suck

Off topic but what the hell?

I was eating a pack of M&M's at work and I got a purple 1! Doesnt that mean I win something?

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
AXVegeta or whatever your in game name is, let's do this:

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.03.

You don't play Jedi Outcast 1.04.

You don't EVEN HAVE Jedi Academy.

How about you shut the hell up when until you can actually contribute to what people are talking about by actually KNOWING what they are talking about.


/edit do you play Jk2 1.04?


Please, oh dear god please tell me you do.

If you do I will make you this deal:

1v1 me, 10 rounds (a full map), no time limit.

You win I leave these forums and never come back.

I win (a given) I get to post a demo (which I plan to record) of just how much of a loud mouth noob you are?

Deal?

Are you retard, blind or what?
Read my f-ucking post, i just played 1.02, get it?
We can make that deal in 1.02, ill be pleased.

Knowing what you are all talking about?
You are all just crying the hell out because you canot catch a FC, a whole thread to that. And i answered you in my last post.
Using speed and absorb, and jumping, they will run out of force very very soon. But if you dont know how to kill him when they are out of force in front of you, well thats a shame.
You must be the most stupid person in the whole game, in order to start a thread because you canot catch a flag carrier the way u used to do it in JO.

You know OR, that was the best clan in ctf. Now they dont have any trouble now. Because smart people find solutions. Retards like you just cryed since the game was released that you couldnt catch a FC with absorb and speed (buny hop is elite, not that, whoever uses speed+absorb is a noob).
Now stop crying the thread and play the f-ucking game to find a solution and if you cant , is just that you are even more stupid than i thought.

Originally posted by the weiner dog!
heh, yeah the sniper scope delay is a very big gripe from all of the twl gunners as well.

it's another example of a nerf that was not needed but put it and screwed some thing up.

OMG what about this 3 second delay for det packs? That is pathetic. In seige to take out the desert wall you need like 10. It's like... det pack... 1... 2... 3... det pack.... 1.. 2... 3... Eventually I end up killing myself of bordem and switching player type.

First of all, in JO you couldnt choose too many force powers points (depending on the servers), so you could choose for example, absorb 2, pull full, saber atack full and jump full.
You can do that in JA too, i guess.
So that if they have absorb, speed and jump full, they wont have any saber defense or ofense, and they wont be able to pull push.
Also CTF servers had a low regen time.

You've GOT to be kidding. Did you just make that off the top of your head (you havent played since february). In S/O CTF Community competition level Force was set at Jedi Master. Meaning you could have (what I normally used) Jump 3, Push 3, Pull 3, Speed 3, Seeing 2, Absorb 3, Team Heal 3, Saber Attack 3, Saber defense 2, and Saber Throw 1. It's the same in JA (I think its -1 point though I can't get seeing level2). So, yes, they will have saber defense, and with saber attack lvl 3 it doesn't matter it won't to jack ****.

What can you do with the old kick that you cannot with the new kick?

Simple. Pull. That's the main reason kick was so useful. You can't pull the player into your kick with staff you have to assume he's going to jump into it.

This issue isn't dependent on flipkick, is it? I mean, you have to catch the FC to kick him anyway, right? I don't see how kick solves this problem.

Here's a comparison

Jedi Outcast

The flag carrier has the flag, he has Speed 3 and Absorb 3 on and an Energizer behind him. He is a little far in front of you.

You throw on Speed 3 and chase after him. You strafe jump over pits and such because he can't (hence you can catch him) since if he does he gets pulled and falls in the cliff. So now you're dead behind him and the Energizer. You can hop over the energizer who doesn't have speed because he wasted his force energizing, then kick the FC off or knock him down/saber his ass, or you could knock the energizer down then speed up and knock the FC down and saber his ass. Problem solved.

Jedi Academy

The flag carrier has the flag, he has Speed 3 and Absorb 3 on and an Energizer behind him. He is a little far in front of you.

You throw on Speed 3 and chase after him. You strafe jump over pits and such because he can't (hence you can catch him) since if he does he gets pulled and falls in the cliff. So now you're dead behind him and the Energizer. Now, the only thing you can do is try and saber him, which, won't work because saber damage is in the crap hole. So what do you do? You can't knock him over, no kick. You can't saber him, low damage. There is nothing you can do to kill him in JA unless you get lucky or he accidently spills pop on his keyboard and forgets to turn left.

See the difference? See why kick is needed?

Not only do u have to catch up the fc but u also gotta deal with the capper turning around push the whole crow chasing him...wait that not all,people chasin the FC will also have to deal with escorter,guarder wutever u call em

Chasing the fc isnt the hardest part,cuz the fc can do sum mistake like falling,gettin blocked by his teamate,et,etc....it killing the fc whiles hes at his base

here an exemple:The FC(Flag carrier) got the flag,and hes at his base and hes whoring protect with the guarder energizing him(in case u didnt know protect work with force)
Mind trick him and kata him?Sorry but capper will hear mind trick and activate seing and even if he didnt hear it,kata wont be strong enuff to kill him cuz he got protect on
Drain him?sorry again,he got an energizer giving him force

A a capper doesnt fight back hes just gonna run around avoiding evrything

So how the hell are u supose to kill him?

...man i gotta work on my english grammar anyway u guys get my point

Again vegeta, I *asked if you played 1.04.

Ask is something people use when they are not sure.

In this case I though you may have played it by now.


But as I said and now stand corrected, you do not play 1.03, you do not play 1.04 and you DO NOT EVEN OWN JEDI ACADEMY so please leave.

You have nothing at all to contribute to this thread because you have no idea at all about the things we are discussing.